RMAF 2009 - 3 Days with 3 Geezers!

[AJINFLA]

Yes, my spider senses were very good at that moment.

Cool. I'll come down some day for some lessons :W
Btw, here are some photos of the event.

cheers,

AJ

[savage25xtreme]

not sure I will be able to sleep tonight without some listening impressions of the Ardents ! 8O

[Face]

not sure I will be able to sleep tonight without some listening impressions of the Ardents ! 8O

....

[Johnloudb]

Cool. I'll come down some day for some lessons :W
Btw, here are some photos of the event.

cheers,

AJ

Thanks for the nice photos everybody!

not sure I will be able to sleep tonight without some listening impressions of the Ardents ! 8O

Yeah, waiting for the Grand Show!

[Hdale85]

not sure I will be able to sleep tonight without some listening impressions of the Ardents ! 8O

Word....

[JonMarsh]

Ardent measured very flat 300 Hz to 20 kHz, need to drop midrange and tweeter level about 2 dB relative to midwoofers. With all the other activity here and visitors, no time to wrap that up- will have to wait until after I get back from biz in Germany on the 16th. All the crossover boards and wiring harnesses are built, thank heavens!

Cranked up on David Garfield, could feel a hint of front panel vibration with the finger tips- obviously, not overbuilt yet! :W

Thomas, Chuck, Carl, Paul W and Brandon did some hi res listening tests with some recently acquired material, including 24/192 demo's done on the NeoD's set up again in Thomas's family room. Some of the material is definitely eye opening.

Brandon brought over the "No Quarter"s and those were setup with Tom's electronics and Brandon's DCX2496- great dynamics and very good integration of the waveguide/compression driver with the woofer- had fun with David Garfield on the No Quarters, too. Steely Dan sound and songs with more modern recording techniques.

[Hdale85]

Panel vibration through a 4" thick panel? Crazy...

[Deward Hastings]

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/frontiers_2.htm#N

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/Driver%20Decoupling.doc

If there is simply no practical alternative to baffle mounting then the basket can be isolated from the baffle by improvised shock mounts . . . ie. grommets, damping rings of sheetblock or similar material, or other vibration isolating expedients. Mass is another alternative . . . cast Aluminum or cast concrete baffles are within the capabilities of many home shops . . .

[savage25xtreme]

Ardent measured very flat 300 Hz to 20 kHz, need to drop midrange and tweeter level about 2 dB relative to midwoofers. With all the other activity here and visitors, no time to wrap that up- will have to wait until after I get back from biz in Germany on the 16th. All the crossover boards and wiring harnesses are built, thank heavens!

Cranked up on David Garfield, could feel a hint of front panel vibration with the finger tips- obviously, not overbuilt yet! :W

Thomas, Chuck, Carl, Paul W and Brandon did some hi res listening tests with some recently acquired material, including 24/192 demo's done on the NeoD's set up again in Thomas's family room. Some of the material is definitely eye opening.

Brandon brought over the "No Quarter"s and those were setup with Tom's electronics and Brandon's DCX2496- great dynamics and very good integration of the waveguide/compression driver with the woofer- had fun with David Garfield on the No Quarters, too. Steely Dan sound and songs with more modern recording techniques.

Front panel vibration? That is incredible. Well, have a safe trip!

[Carl V]

fairly faint....& I was looking or feeling for them.....
and quite limited where i was able to feel some
VERY faint vibration. imho it's probably a non-issue.
For Jon it might be an issue and another pathway to
pursue.

In mono the ardent was fine.....the XO (s) were massive
the enclosure is stout. I look forward to the finished products.

Hi-rez ws eye opening....hi peak spl transients really hit you.
the fine microdynamics/detail was in evidence.

Fun times

[penngray]

Did you guys use cable lifters in your setups like all those other RMAF rooms have?

It really shows who they cater too.

[savage25xtreme]

Cool. I'll come down some day for some lessons :W
Btw, here are some photos of the event.

cheers,

AJ

whats the purpose of keeping the cables off the carpet (pic 39) ?

[penngray]

whats the purpose of keeping the cables off the carpet (pic 39) ?

To make money off products that do nothing

[bemis23]

whats the purpose of keeping the cables off the carpet (pic 39) ?

Audiophile voodoo science and hocus pocus.

[penngray]

Audiophile voodoo science and hocus pocus.

This is where I would have a really hard time in each of those rooms. I would ask if they have data on the cable lifters :E

Every year I want to go to one of these shows and the pictures convince me other wise....I would go crazy.

[Deward Hastings]

whats the purpose of keeping the cables off the carpet (pic 39) ?

Maybe it's a Union rule? If you have cables you have to have a cable lifter? It's like that in San Francisco . . . don't know about Denver . . . (I've worked in theaters where a rigger was required to push the button that opened and closed the curtains . . . neither Stage Manager nor stage crew lead could do it . . .).

Just kidding, of course . . . (about the cable lifters).

[Kal Rubinson]

This is where I would have a really hard time in each of those rooms. I would ask if they have data on the cable lifters :E

Aside from the price: 1 to 3 inches.

Every year I want to go to one of these shows and the pictures convince me other wise....I would go crazy.

Nah. Such silliness continually re-invents itself, so you have to view it with some distance and much amusement.

[brianpowers27]

whats the purpose of keeping the cables off the carpet (pic 39) ?

It is part of the experience - Feng Shui

[penngray]

Aside from the price: 1 to 3 inches.

Nah. Such silliness continually re-invents itself, so you have to view it with some distance and much amusement.

lmao!! Thanks.

I really wanted to go to this one though. A couple of DIY designs have me extremely excited and I wanted to really know what great DIY speakers sound like.

Schedule changes screwed everything up. I wish they did it close to January so I could throw a family skiing trip in.

[Notorious_AK]

if cables are suspended, bad stray electrons are pulled down by earth gravity.
it's even better to position amplifier and crossovers at a level above speakers, so signal will flow like water into the drivers. :B

[bemis23]

if cables are suspended, bad stray electrons are pulled down by earth gravity.
it's even better to position amplifier and crossovers at a level above speakers, so signal will flow like water into the drivers. :B

LOL

What's sad I guess is that there are many people who completely and totally believe this to be true.

[augerpro]

RMAF left me unimpressed with the same spartan music that makes everything sound decent, but nothing really impressive. Coupled with poor room and setup it's hard to make any judegments abotu anything I heard that day, other than some speakers showed promise and a coupe were offensive, with a bunch in between that were just mediocre. The most promising designs were the JBL S9900, Revel Ultima Salon2, TAD Reference One, and the Wilson Beneasch (sp?), and speaker from a little builder called Intuative Audio. GR Research's open baffle was a little spitty, and the Audio Physic open baffle was just plain harsh. Listened to the MBL omni and once again was astounded by how that much money and engineering can result in such an offensive sound. Listened to an open baffle Lowther field coil and I still don't "get" the fullrange fascination. So pretty much a day of half starts that left me with more questions than answers.

[augerpro]

SB Acoustics mentioned a new line called FSK or FKS that are supposed to compete with the SS Revelator but at about $140 per driver. Out in January adn Madisound will be carrying them.

[maynardg]

So pretty much a day of half starts that left me with more questions than answers.

At least they are not existential questions.

[Patrick Bateman]

The Walsh driver is not dead-

It's alive and well at German Physiks, in a variety of guises- here, we see one of their newest traveling wave drivers done with an ultra lightweight carbon fiber based cone.



The sound was open and clean for the most part, though the top octave was a bit down in level and a little rough compared to some of the best systems. The overall presentation was spatial in a manner similar to the RAAL omnis- big surprise! Overall a nice presentation, much more musical than many others I heard at the show, far fewer sins of commission.

The main "downside" of the German Physiks systems is the low reference sensitivity, similar to the old Walsh drivers- in the 80 dB/watt range.

Conventional loud speakers have a power response which is very poor, but it's what people are accustomed to. When people here a speaker with excellent power response, it sounds "weird." In particular, the treble sounds like it's missing.

This is something I have to deal with all the time. I can make a speaker with an excellent power response, which measures flat on-axis, and it will still sound "weird" until you get used it.

Conversely, conventional loudspeakers sound hopelessly bright to me now, and very unnatural.

[ThomasW]

For me a big highlight of the show was meeting and spending time talking with Bruce Brown of Puget Sound Studios. He was sitting at and playing tracks from a 'portable' 32bit/352k audio work station. Bruce is the person who's single handedly mastered all the Hi-Res offerings sold by HTTracks.com. The 32/352 tracks he was playing made rather modest Usher MTM sound extremely good

Image not available

The studio cost $1,000,000 to build and equip.

I've downloaded and burned to DVD several of the albums from HTtracks. Playing them with the PS Audio PWT/PWD or using the PWT into Jon's Berkeley DAC. The Hi-Res SQ is simply stunning.

Those wanting a free taste of Bruce's work might want to download a selection of "Carmen Habanera Fantasia" appropriate to their playback system. But be careful, there are some BIG transients in this selection.

[---k---]

People keep complaining about the rooms. However, Floyd Toole in his book Sound Reproduction recommends against most treatments in a music room - that is a broad over simplification of his recommendations. But my memory is that he is against first reflection point panels, which is what we all seem to recommend and think if they aren't there the room is an issue. We could have a good (or ugly) discussion about Toole's views, if people have read the book. Another thread. I'll leave it to the mods, since I think it is too controversial to have brought up to this point. But, my head is still spinning after reading the book.

[Jonasz]

For me a big highlight of the show was meeting and spending time talking with Bruce Brown of Puget Sound Studios. He was sitting at and playing tracks from a 'portable' 32bit/352k audio work station. Bruce is the person who's single handedly mastered all the Hi-Res offerings sold by HTTracks.com. The 32/352 tracks he was playing made rather modest Usher MTM sound extremely good

Image not available

The studio cost $1,000,000 to build and equip.

I've downloaded and burned to DVD several of the albums from HTtracks. Playing them with the PS Audio PWT/PWD or using the PWT into Jon's Berkeley DAC. The Hi-Res SQ is simply stunning.

Those wanting a free taste of Bruce's work might want to download a selection of "Carmen Habanera Fantasia" appropriate to their playback system. But be careful, there are some BIG transients in this selection.

Wow! That Carmen piece sounds absolutely stunning! :E :P

[ThomasW]

Wow! That Carmen piece sounds absolutely stunning! :E :P

Yes it does.... :B

[ThomasW]

People keep complaining about the rooms. However, Floyd Toole in his book Sound Reproduction recommends against most treatments in a music room -

Problem with the bulk of the rooms at the show was bass/midbass BOOM, not something caused by 1st reflection points

[Kal Rubinson]

People keep complaining about the rooms. However, Floyd Toole in his book Sound Reproduction recommends against most treatments in a music room - that is a broad over simplification of his recommendations.

I agree: It is a broad oversimplification.

But my memory is that he is against first reflection point panels, which is what we all seem to recommend and think if they aren't there the room is an issue.

Right. IIRC, he did not recommend against other acoustic treatments.

[Dennis H]

Interesting how they busted Bruce for using a steep filter above 20K even though he was using a high sampling rate for the AD conversion.

[Spanky Ham]

Thomas,
Do you mean hdtracks.com? HTTracks doesn't come up.

People keep complaining about the rooms. However, Floyd Toole in his book Sound Reproduction recommends against most treatments in a music room - that is a broad over simplification of his recommendations. But my memory is that he is against first reflection point panels, which is what we all seem to recommend and think if they aren't there the room is an issue. We could have a good (or ugly) discussion about Toole's views, if people have read the book. Another thread. I'll leave it to the mods, since I think it is too controversial to have brought up to this point. But, my head is still spinning after reading the book.

A discussion would be nice, if you get Toole to join in. The problem arises when people try to read between the lines or put words into the author's mouth.



Looks like the geezers had fun. Now, Chuck needs to get back to warm and sunny South Florida and build me some speakers. :rofl:

[---k---]

A discussion would be nice, if you get Toole to join in. The problem arises when people try to read between the lines or put words into the author's mouth.

Yes, probably an accurate assessment.

[cjd]

I bet cheap synthetic carpeting and crap carpet padding along with cement walls don't help the frequency balance. You really do need bass traps in rooms like you find in a hotel.

[Notorious_AK]

how did wadia room speakers sound? slide 104. I've never seen driver arrangement like this (upside down).

[AJINFLA]

whats the purpose of keeping the cables off the carpet (pic 39) ?

I thought that was obvious? To improve the sound of course.
All dependent on whether the system is "revealing" enough and the listeners hearing sufficiently "trained".

Thomas, Chuck, Carl, Paul W and Brandon did some hi res listening tests

Paul W??? Jeez, that's a long way from GA, isn't it?

cheers,

AJ

[Paul W]

The speakers in the Wadia room were from Dynaudio. I hadn't seen them before but really didn't care for the soundstage so low to the floor (they sound like they look - upside down). Seems like an Industrial Design guy decided the layout.

My favorites of the show...JBL K2-9900, TAD model 1, Revel Ultima 2, and the little Gradient (it is smaller than I thought). Some fairly different speakers for different environments, but I thought all of these were very good.

And...thanks for the hospitality Thomas! Had a great time!

[Paul W]

Paul W??? Jeez, that's a long way from GA, isn't it?

Not via Delta

BTW AJ, I heard 2-3 coax designs and all sounded harsh. Not like yours at all. Jon told me one of them was crossed at 900Hz which seemed way too low.

[AJINFLA]

Not via Delta
BTW AJ, I heard 2-3 coax designs and all sounded harsh.
Not like yours at all.

Well now, there was this one time when I hooked 'em to to a tube amp and... :rofl:

Jon told me one of them was crossed at 900Hz which seemed way too low.

Yikes. I'll be honest with you. One of the reasons that I hardly (if ever) attend those events anymore (asides from being a lot poorer :cry: ), is that there might be a very small handful of people who know what they are doing....and an awful lot who don't.

cheers,

AJ

p.s. I'll bring a beefed up (like the anvil I brought to Lexington) revised version next time and some more juice, so we can hear things proper.

[AJINFLA]

Problem with the bulk of the rooms at the show was bass/midbass BOOM, not something caused by 1st reflection points

The rooms? Or the acoustic sources interacting with them?

[Kal Rubinson]

The rooms? Or the acoustic sources interacting with them?

Well, if nothing makes a sound in a space, how can it have bad acoustics? :roll:

The question is what factor is at fault. If the fault is modal behavior, it is due to the room's dimensions which can be varied with equipment placement and EQ but remains unless physical treatment is used.

[AJINFLA]

Well, if nothing makes a sound in a space, how can it have bad acoustics? :roll:

My point entirely Kal. Acoustic source + room....at RMAF = good/bad/boom sound.

The question is what factor is at fault. If the fault is modal behavior, it is due to the room's dimensions which can be varied with equipment placement and EQ but remains unless physical treatment is used.

Fix the problems at the source and the room may need no treatment at all. Or EQ. Or perhaps only a touch of both.

cheers,

AJ

[Kal Rubinson]

My point entirely Kal. Acoustic source + room....at RMAF = good/bad/boom sound.

I included the smiley to point out the silliness in the remark.

Fix the problems at the source and the room may need no treatment at all. Or EQ. Or perhaps only a touch of both.

Explain how any changes in the source can cure modal problems. Even source EQ cures it only for one site in the room and for one source. Unless you fix the room, the problems remain. For example, they would be noticeable with speech and other sounds.

[sfdoddsy]

Did any of you attend the Nordost seminar?

http://blog.stereophile.com/rmaf2009/breakthrough_approach_to_audio_measurement/#COMMENT