New separates from Denon

[Glen B]

What are the 2 pre/pros?

I was hoping to avoid names.

Halo C-1, $5,995.00
Outlaw 990, $899.00

Also:
NAD M-15, $2,999.00
NAD T175, $1,999.00
Krell S-1000, $6,500.00
Marantz AV-8003, $2,599.00 (ships next month)

When you look at all of the above versus what all you get with the Denon AVP, I guess even at $7K its hard to argue that its not a bargain for the person in need of all its features.

[sikoniko]

Guy, I don't see where I mentioned your name, quoted your post, or even implied I was responding to you so please don't retort back to me or start psychoanalyzing me. I own one piece of Denon equipment so no, I'm not the fanboy you're trying to pin me for. I am here for one thing, to learn.

fair enough. I am here to learn as well.

I am intersted in understanding the dac implementation on the avp? does anyone know more specific information than dual differential?

[impala454]

Yeah is that normal to have multiple DACs? I wonder what advantage that would have

[H.T.C]

I would like to add or clarify a comment in a paragraph (not quite on the focal point and little on the sidelines ) which had to do with manufacturers being put out of business,my point is that most companies in high end audio dont produce in the low end and if the economic conditions were not good and a company like classe could not or would not produce items in that price range,the corporation may be exist no longer as a viable entity and denon as well as other manufacturers that do have different price ranges may get by and the avphiles would buy and enjoy them and of course stereo magazines would reveal sonic pleasures one would get from a $800.00 receiver like never before because there would not much for review.

I may seem a little cynical but after a tumor ( bladder cancer) perspectives have changed and one year after it has been removed i still get tired and trying to plant a small bush seemed to take energy from me,unlike,before the illness,so high priced items in a/v should not worry us so much.

[wettou]

I would like to add or clarify a comment in a paragraph (not quite on the focal point and little on the sidelines ) which had to do with manufacturers being put out of business,my point is that most companies in high end audio dont produce in the low end and if the economic conditions were not good and a company like classe could not or would not produce items in that price range,the corporation may be exist no longer as a viable entity and denon as well as other manufacturers that do have different price ranges may get by and the avphiles would buy and enjoy them and of course stereo magazines would reveal sonic pleasures one would get from a $800.00 receiver like never before because there would not much for review. I may seem a little cynical but after a tumor ( bladder cancer) perspectives have changed and one year after it has been removed i still get tired and trying to plant a small bush seemed to take energy from me,unlike,before the illness,so high priced items in a/v should not worry us so much.

We are sorry to hear about your unfortunate health problem,

Being in the medical field, I would agree that priorities are quite different when health or family is compromised. AV is just a way to enjoy oneself and we should not make this so combative. After all these are just opinions as the only exact science is mathematics.

Wishing you well

[Nolan B]

The irony of it all is that Denon has been around far longer than both Classe and Mac and have vested just as much, if not more than anyone else in high end audio. The brand is well built, especially in Japan.

Im not disputing that, but there time has been spent in a different segment of the market then the one they are attempting to reach with the said products.. They are great at what they have been doing, but have not earned the position they are after yet.

I'm sure spending over 2 grand for something with a broken scaler that needed a bypass made you all fuzzy inside since it said "Rotel" on the outside. :B

warm and fuzzy? lol....no it pissed me off. Luckily for me I didnt care about the scaler and only wanted pure sound quality and HDMI 1.1. The 1069 offered me that and I still think its a GREAT processor. If, however, you wanted the 1069 becuase you wanted a video processor in the it your are SOL....Rotel really stumbled on the 1069 and handled it even worse. They lost credibility in my books. No question.

Now I can also tell you that if Rotel didnt offer a solution to bypass the scaler and if the scaler was something I really wanted I would have sold all of my Rotel equipment and brought my loyaty to another brand and never looked back.

The above still dosnt change the point that Rotel sounds better then Denon, looks better then Denon and IMO is all around a step up from Denon.

[Z Man]

I was hoping to avoid names.

Halo C-1, $5,995.00
Outlaw 990, $899.00

Also:
NAD M-15, $2,999.00
NAD T175, $1,999.00
Krell S-1000, $6,500.00
Marantz AV-8003, $2,599.00 (ships next month)

When you look at all of the above versus what all you get with the Denon AVP, I guess even at $7K its hard to argue that its not a bargain for the person in need of all its features.

Sorry if I wasn't more specific when I said current wave of high end. I was referring to a unit that is at least HDMI 1.3 compliant, and fully balanced in design.

Only one of the above is a fully balanced design, and in it's most recent iteration with HDMI 1.3, retails for $8,500. The $6,500 model is only HDMI 1.1.

The Denon AVP is still the lowest priced high end pre/pro with fully balanced circuitry and HDMI 1.3.


Seth

[Z Man]

The above still dosnt change the point that Rotel sounds better then Denon, looks better then Denon and IMO is all around a step up from Denon.

Now this is a very bold statement. I'm sure the Rotel is the "best" sounding in your setup, but that does not necessarily make it a better sounding unit than the Denon AVP in general. Question, have you listened to the Denon AVP in your setup? Have you A/B'd it to your current pre/pro? While the Denon AVP is the best pre/pro in my setup, I will not make as bold of a statement as to say the Denon is better than this or that.

A lot of factors come into play when buying a pre/pro. Not all setups are going to sound the same. Different rooms, speakers, amps, cables, etc. are all going to play a part in how the overall sound will be. So saying that your pre/pro is way better than Denon is not a fair statement. Better in your room with your setup maybe, but better in general. I'm sorry but I don't agree.



Seth

[RebelMan]

But to ask for the third time. Can we keep the discussion about the AVP/POA? You don't have to like the thing, but don't say you don't like it because the tag says Denon. Tell us what specifically you don't like about this particular pre-pro and/or amp. That's what promotes discussion and learning. If you don't have anything to say specifically about these two items (good or bad), then honestly you have no business in this thread.

I think it was Linn that once said "If you haven't heard it then you don't have an opinion." With the exception of the early adopters I think that would include most of the posters here, along with myself. I think if we followed your request to the letter that would rule out most of the discussion taking place here. I may not have an opinion but I do have some comments regarding Denon's new piece. I'm also in the camp that needs convincing that Denon has restored it illustrious history with regard to high fidelity. Until I have heard the unit I will reserve final judgment. For now what is fair to comment about is how the AVP-A1HD and accompanying POA-A1HD have been positioned in the market.

The system is trying to appeal to two disparate demographics. Those that fancy features and those that fancy sound quality. The problem I see with this is the unit's failure to bridge both sides in equal proportion, some sacrifices had to be made. For example, the PCM1796 DAC's it uses are not top-of-the-line TI/BB and they cost one-third the superior PCM1792 DAC's more commonly found in "high-end" equipment.

I do not agree that we completely ignore what the competition has to offer especially when products are being offered near similar price points as I think that would be naive. I do believe that early interest in the AVP has less to do with how it sounds and more to do with what it does. Anyone not giving competing brands currently available supporting HD content or soon to be released a fair shake in the sound room clearly have a different set of principles and they do not fall under the category of SQ. I don't see a problem with that provided that one doesn't try to pawn the choice off as something it isn't.

In its favor I will say the AVP-A1HD looks to be a well built system but given the complexity of the thing I would have some reservations of long term ownership. That it comes with a three warranty should provide some piece of mind but it will be interesting to see.

[btf1980]

The above still dosnt change the point that Rotel sounds better then Denon, looks better then Denon and IMO is all around a step up from Denon.

The Rotel is gorgeous, no doubt about that, simple and elegant design. However sounds better than the Denon AVP? That's where i'll just agree to disagree with you on. Have you heard the AVP? I had the 1069 for quite some time, and although I don't own the AVP, have also had ample time with it to form an opinion on the piece through my local audio club. Having heard them powering the same speakers with the same amps and sources as the 1069, I will just say that imo there are no sonic qualities that the Rotel 1069 has over the Denon AVP with 2 channel or multichannel. None at all. IMO, since the Rotel offers no sonic superiority, the Denon is hands down the better prepro since it most definitely trumps the 1069 with features, inputs, usability, specs etc. This coming from a guy who is the least concerned about "bells and whistles". It is what it is. I just hope people hear things before casting judgements, you might be surprised. I don't even think it's right to compare the 1069 with the AVP, it's more than 3 times the price of the 1069.

[Z Man]

Thank you btf1980 for your most welcomed input.

[Nolan B]

Now this is a very bold statement. I'm sure the Rotel is the "best" sounding in your setup, but that does not necessarily make it a better sounding unit than the Denon AVP in general. Question, have you listened to the Denon AVP in your setup? Have you A/B'd it to your current pre/pro? While the Denon AVP is the best pre/pro in my setup, I will not make as bold of a statement as to say the Denon is better than this or that.

A lot of factors come into play when buying a pre/pro. Not all setups are going to sound the same. Different rooms, speakers, amps, cables, etc. are all going to play a part in how the overall sound will be. So saying that your pre/pro is way better than Denon is not a fair statement. Better in your room with your setup maybe, but better in general. I'm sorry but I don't agree.



Seth

It is a bold statement I made and I would have been less bold if I did do more then one A/B. I have done Denon A/B tests in my set up and many different AB tests at my dealer. Personally I feel that for pure sound quality Rotel is a clear step above Denon.

This does, however, stray from my initial point and point of the thread, which is that Denon has specialized in a certian market segment and done not only a very good job there, but one could argue the best job.

They do not have enough experience, credibility or history (yet) to just dive into the "high end" market. This topic touches to much on opinion then fact so the debate will ultimately go round and round.

[hifiguymi]

It is a bold statement I made and I would have been less bold if I did do more then one A/B. I have done Denon A/B tests in my set up and many different AB tests at my dealer. Personally I feel that for pure sound quality Rotel is a clear step above Denon.

This does, however, stray from my initial point and point of the thread, which is that Denon has specialized in a certian market segment and done not only a very good job there, but one could argue the best job.

They do not have enough experience, credibility or history (yet) to just dive into the "high end" market. This topic touches to much on opinion then fact so the debate will ultimately go round and round.

You keep referring to Denon in a general sense. Are you talking about the brand as a whole or the AVP-A1HDCI? I'm just looking for clarification on that point because that has an impact on what is being discussed.

Eric

[impala454]

I'm also in the camp that needs convincing that Denon has restored it illustrious history with regard to high fidelity. Until I have heard the unit I will reserve final judgment.

It does make sense to reserve final judgement, but in the following paragraph you've already deemed the AVP a "failture to bridge both sides in equal proportion". That sounds like a pretty final judgement.

The system is trying to appeal to two disparate demographics. Those that fancy features and those that fancy sound quality. The problem I see with this is the unit's failure to bridge both sides in equal proportion, some sacrifices had to be made.

For example, the PCM1796 DAC's it uses are not top-of-the-line TI/BB and they cost one-third the superior PCM1792 DAC's more commonly found in "high-end" equipment.

Interesting, so what are the differences between these two chips? Also what currently available pre-pros use the PCM1792?

I do not agree that we completely ignore what the competition has to offer especially when products are being offered near similar price points as I think that would be naive. I do believe that early interest in the AVP has less to do with how it sounds and more to do with what it does. Anyone not giving competing brands currently available supporting HD content or soon to be released a fair shake in the sound room clearly have a different set of principles and they do not fall under the category of SQ. I don't see a problem with that provided that one doesn't try to pawn the choice off as something it isn't.

I don't think anyone who's posted so far had the thought of not giving the other brands a fair shake because of features. But this isn't a "which pre-pro is best" thread. I also don't see how someone interested in decoding Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA automatically pins them as not concerned about SQ. It would seem just the opposite IMHO.

In its favor I will say the AVP-A1HD looks to be a well built system but given the complexity of the thing I would have some reservations of long term ownership.

Oh come on. Complexity? Every single pre-pro out there is a complex piece of equipment.

[impala454]

They do not have enough experience, credibility or history (yet) to just dive into the "high end" market. This topic touches to much on opinion then fact so the debate will ultimately go round and round.

So, in your opinion, how would they go about getting that experience, credibility, and history required to dive into the high end market?

perhaps... building something like the AVP?

[dmccombs]

So let us know how is the denon musically will it compare to Classé SSP-800 same prices!

Today, the Denon is way better than the Classe, becuase the Classe isn't available yet. 8O

But, when the Classe is released, and IF it has a well implemented HDMI, this will be a valid question.

[GregLett]

Did Denon take someones lunch money??
Man!!!

[btf1980]

It is a bold statement I made and I would have been less bold if I did do more then one A/B. I have done Denon A/B tests in my set up and many different AB tests at my dealer. Personally I feel that for pure sound quality Rotel is a clear step above Denon.

This does, however, stray from my initial point and point of the thread, which is that Denon has specialized in a certian market segment and done not only a very good job there, but one could argue the best job.

They do not have enough experience, credibility or history (yet) to just dive into the "high end" market. This topic touches to much on opinion then fact so the debate will ultimately go round and round.

What Denon products did you use? There obviously is a big difference between mass market receivers and a flagship prepro. It's like judging B&W by saying you listened to the Zeppelin Ipod speaker. 800D's the zeppelins ain't. Likewise, mass market receiver the AVP isn't. I just think the AVP is being judged harshly because of the perceived lack of pedigree some have towards Denon.

I'll draw a parallel. Unlike the AVP that's made in Japan, Rotel is made in China. If I had a nickel for the amount of times people would dismiss a product because it was made in China, i'd be very wealthy. Obviously Rotel is very well built and sounds superb, but some people would not even give it a listen or time of day because it's made in China. That's a deathblow to some. Much like owning an AVP from a company known for mass market receivers is a deathblow to some. They can't even fathom it, and in some instances don't want to. Even within this thread, the country of manufacture is an issue. We Rotel owners know their products are good, but those with preconceived notions have determined it to be subpar and inferior because it's "Chinese" assembled. Likewise many will putdown the AVP because it's Denon and not Classe, Mark Levinson, Mcintosh etc.

[impala454]

Honestly, even giving Denon the branding of "mass market" is pretty far fetched. They've only been in the major retail stores for a few years at most.

[btf1980]

Thank you btf1980 for your most welcomed input.

Sure. :T

[dmccombs]

Someone in the B&W thread has this setup actually with some 800 series I believe.

I have the Denon Prepro with B&W 802Ds. I have previously owned nice prepros such as the Krell HTS 7.1, Halcro SSP-100 (upgraded with 96/24 via HDMI), and the Proceed AVP2+6. Let me know if you have any specific questions.

The short review is that the Denon AVP sound quality stacks up well to the other Prepro I mentioned. The Denon HDMI implementation is terrific. It works perfectly with my 5 HDMI devices.

The Denon has just about every prepro feature you would like including the ability to stream FLAC files over my network.

Of course, I wouldn't keep the Denon, even with the 1000 features if the sound quality didn't stand up. But, it does.

You can run it with a standard setup using Pure Direct mode which leaves the signal pretty much unaltered, and turns off unused circuitry. This makes it sound accurate like the Proceed AVP2+6.

You can turn on Audessey room correction, which adjusted the time domain, and the unit sounds more dynamic, like the Halcro.

To be fair, you'd have to listen to the Denon AVP before discounting it. ITs made by Denon, but the SQ is cleaner and less edgy than their recievers.

The Classe SSP-800 has me curious. IF they have a clean HDMI implementation, I will definetly give it a listen. It would go great with my Classe CAM-350 amps. :B

Darrell

[impala454]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, this is Denon's first pre-pro correct??

[dmccombs]

:agree: I keep reading about how something is "built like a tank" unless I'm going to war with the thing a "tank like' build is not important good build and a good sound is.

Greg,

You are so silly. How are you going to play Monster Trucks with your audio gear, unless you take it out of the rack at least once a month, and bash into the rest of your flimsier made gear? :rofl:

Last month, I pitted a Prepro against my Dish box. I'm going to miss that Dish box...

Last week, I pitted that heavy Prepro against one of my monoblock amps. Lesson Learned: Monoblock Amps RULE!!!

So, next time you are out shopping for gear, bash it against some of the other gear, and see how it holds up. Get your priorities straight man... Screw sound quality and features. :twisted:

Darrell

[Z Man]

zman, I am trying to answer this based on memory, as my phone does not show pictures. are you the one with the b&w speakers? if so, as a fellow b&w owner, I think it is fantastic you found electronics that make you smile. isn't a great feeling? we spend a long time chasing the sound, and once we finallly achieve it, its like a breathe of fresh air. the perfect place to relax and enjoy the hobby without feeling like you need to upgrade this or that. even if you don't have b&w's it is still a great feeling!

The system you are thinking about belongs to a guy from across the pond, he lives in the UK. He is loving his setup immensely. I have been seeing a great many B&W 802D owners getting the Denon AVP and POA and are extremely happy with the sound.

While I don't own B&W speakers, I do have an all Martin Logan setup. The AVP really makes them shine. Yes being able to sit back, relax and enjoy first rate sound is definitely a great feeling.

[RebelMan]

It does make sense to reserve final judgement, but in the following paragraph you've already deemed the AVP a "failture to bridge both sides in equal proportion". That sounds like a pretty final judgement.

You're reading between the lines. It says that it has something to prove which it shouldn't if it's integrity weren't questionable given it's rocky history.

Interesting, so what are the differences between these two chips? Also what currently available pre-pros use the PCM1792?

A few things like dynamic range, signal-to-noise and digital filtering abilities. Classe's SSP-800 employs them.

I don't think anyone who's posted so far had the thought of not giving the other brands a fair shake because of features. But this isn't a "which pre-pro is best" thread. I also don't see how someone interested in decoding Dolby TrueHD or DTS-MA automatically pins them as not concerned about SQ. It would seem just the opposite IMHO.

Most people are focused on the feature set of the AVP rather than SQ. Case in point your opening post. It should be obvious that the AVP's appeal is its features. It should also be obvious (to people looking for SQ) that many of the features it includes are extraneous. I illustrate my point below (again keep in mind my remarks are in keeping with SQ not functionality)...

AVP-A1HDCI Pre-pro:

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3922.asp

12 channel A/V Pre-amplifier - Only 8 are required.
THX® Ultra2 certified - Only valid on 7.1 systems/DPLIIx supports 5.1 systems and uses a proven matrix algorithm.
New DDSC-HD circuitry - Proprietary and unnecessary with the inclusion of DPLIIx.
Dolby® TrueHD, DD+ and dts-HD™ Master Audio decoding - Superfluous with some players. Will be less of an issue as time goes on.
HDMI v1.3a compatible - Superfluous
Analog Devices SHARC processors - Redundant in standalone players and irrelevant with HD content, the intended purpose of the AVP no?
Burr-Brown 24-Bit/192kHz DACs on all 12 channels - Has potential.
Wi-Fi 802.11 b/g, Windows Vista and DLNA certified - Convenience feature only. See Sonos.
Ethernet and RS-232C ports - Ethernet is a convenience feature only, RS-232 is standard issue.
RDS, HD Radio and XM Radio ready - See your (commercial free) content provider, like Rhapsody on Sonos or TiVo.
2-way remote capability with optional RC-7000CI and RC-7001RCI remote system - Proprietary? See Harmony.

Oh come on. Complexity? Every single pre-pro out there is a complex piece of equipment.

Obviously but you are reading this statement selectively. A pre/pro is a surround sound processor. Put another way a machine that processes sound. Adding video to the equation undermines the focus on SQ.

[impala454]

You're reading between the lines.

No I wasn't, I was directly quoting you.

A few things like dynamic range, signal-to-noise and digital filtering abilities. Classe's SSP-800 employs them.

Which isn't even available yet. Are there any others? You mentioned this chip is pretty much "standard" in high end audio, I'm just curious where.

Most people are focused on the feature set of the AVP rather than SQ. Case in point your opening post. It should be obvious that the AVP's appeal is its features. It should also be obvious (to people looking for SQ) that many of the features it includes are extraneous. I illustrate my point below (again keep in mind my remarks are in keeping with SQ not functionality)...

AVP-A1HDCI Pre-pro:

http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/3922.asp

12 channel A/V Pre-amplifier - Only 8 are required.
THX® Ultra2 certified - Only valid on 7.1 systems/DPLIIx supports 5.1 systems and uses a proven matrix algorithm.
New DDSC-HD circuitry - Proprietary and unnecessary with the inclusion of DPLIIx.
Dolby® TrueHD, DD+ and dts-HD™ Master Audio decoding - Superfluous with some players. Will be less of an issue as time goes on.
HDMI v1.3a compatible - Superfluous
Analog Devices SHARC processors - Redundant in standalone players and irrelevant with HD content, the intended purpose of the AVP no?
Burr-Brown 24-Bit/192kHz DACs on all 12 channels - Has potential.
Wi-Fi 802.11 b/g, Windows Vista and DLNA certified - Convenience feature only. See Sonos.
Ethernet and RS-232C ports - Ethernet is a convenience feature only, RS-232 is standard issue.
RDS, HD Radio and XM Radio ready - See your (commercial free) content provider, like Rhapsody on Sonos or TiVo.
2-way remote capability with optional RC-7000CI and RC-7001RCI remote system - Proprietary? See Harmony.

Obviously but you are reading this statement selectively. A pre/pro is a surround sound processor. Put another way a machine that processes sound. Adding video to the equation undermines the focus on SQ.

How does having extra features or adding video switching undermine the focus on SQ?

[hifiguymi]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, this is Denon's first pre-pro correct??

No it's not. Denon did one in the late 90's to early 00's. There isn't that much info on their website but here is a link to it.

http://www.usa.denon.com/ArchivedAVReceivers.asp?archivedModelSearch=true&clearCurrent=true&archivedCategory=AV&archivedModel=AVP-8000DTS&imageField.x=29&imageField.y=9

Eric

[RebelMan]

The system you are thinking about belongs to a guy from across the pond, he lives in the UK. He is loving his setup immensely. I have been seeing a great many B&W 802D owners getting the Denon AVP and POA and have been extremely happy with the sound.

Denon demoed the AVP/POA with a pair of 803D at the Bristol Sound and Vison Show this year. I would be more surprised by people with B&W's that didn't care for the combo.

[dmccombs]

No need to be so aggressive



Just for your information Classé SSP-800 is $8K where as the Denon is $7.5K so we are talking $500 difference.

A I said I have currently an Integra Research, (Onkyo)

Currently, the Denon is $7k, so the price difference is now $1000.

Most Denon dealers also will give you a 10% discount. I haven't seen that with the local Classe dealers, so the street price difference could actually be higher than $1000.

But, even with that price difference, I would just buy the one that sounds best to me (that has working HDMI).

[RebelMan]

No I wasn't, I was directly quoting you.

YES you were (reading between the lines)!

Which isn't even available yet. Are there any others? You mentioned this chip is pretty much "standard" in high end audio, I'm just curious where.

Yes, there are others. Generally in high-end CD players like the Classe' CDP-202, Ayre C-5xe, etc.

How does having extra features or adding video switching undermine the focus on SQ?

Jack of all trades master of none (plus budget).

[Hdale85]

I would be highly surprised if any Denon dealer gave you 10% off a 7k dollar AVP.

[btf1980]

Currently, the Denon is $7k, so the price difference is now $1000.

Most Denon dealers also will give you a 10% discount. I haven't seen that with the local Classe dealers, so the street price difference could actually be higher than $1000.

But, even with that price difference, I would just buy the one that sounds best to me (that has working HDMI).

On Audiogon, i've seen the AVP go for as low as 5K or less from authorized dealers. You just have to call them.

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?homeproc&1214568774

[GregLett]

Greg,

You are so silly. How are you going to play Monster Trucks with your audio gear, unless you take it out of the rack at least once a month, and bash into the rest of your flimsier made gear? :rofl:

Last month, I pitted a Prepro against my Dish box. I'm going to miss that Dish box...

Last week, I pitted that heavy Prepro against one of my monoblock amps. Lesson Learned: Monoblock Amps RULE!!!

So, next time you are out shopping for gear, bash it against some of the other gear, and see how it holds up. Get your priorities straight man... Screw sound quality and features. :twisted:

Darrell

:rofl:

[hifiguymi]

On Audiogon, i've seen the AVP go for as low as 5K from authorized dealers. You just have to call them.

Even if the dealer is an authorized dealer they are not authorized to sell on AudioGon. Denon are real sticklers about this and that is a buyer beware.

Eric

[Z Man]

No it's not. Denon did one in the late 90's to early 00's. There isn't that much info on their website but here is a link to it.

http://www.usa.denon.com/ArchivedAVReceivers.asp?archivedModelSearch=true&clearCurrent=true&archivedCategory=AV&archivedModel=AVP-8000DTS&imageField.x=29&imageField.y=9

Eric

In 1995 the AVP-8000DTS came out (which you gave a link to), and then a year later in 1996 the AVP-A1 was introduced. The original AVP-A1 was available until sometime in '98 if I'm not mistaken. So it's been a good ten years since that time, but this new AVP-A1HDCI shows that Denon is back into the separates game in a big way.

[btf1980]

Even if the dealer is an authorized dealer they are not authorized to sell on AudioGon. Denon are real sticklers about this and that is a buyer beware.

Eric

That's the thing, it's not an online sale. It's a phone order which is still considered "in store", they are advertising on a'gon.

It's similar to Pioneer Elite. You can't buy it online, but you can make phone orders.

[Z Man]

I have the Denon Prepro with B&W 802Ds. I have previously owned nice prepro suck as the Krell HTS 7.1, Halcro SSP-100, and the Proceed AVP2+6. Let me know if you have any specific questions.

The short review is that the Denon AVP sound quality stacks up well to the other Prepro I mentioned. The Denon HDMI implementation is terrific. It works perfectly with my 5 HDMI devices.

The Denon has just about every prepro feature you would like including the ability to stream FLAC files over my network.

Of course, I wouldn't keep the Denon, even with the 1000 features if the sound quality didn't stand up. But, it does.

You can run it with a standard setup using Pure Direct mode which leaves the signal pretty much unaltered, and turns off unused circuitry. This makes it sound accurate like the Proceed AVP2+6.

You can turn on Audessey room correction, which adjusted the time domain, and the unit sounds more dynamic, like the Halcro.

To be fair, you'd have to listen to the Denon AVP before discounting it. ITs made by Denon, but the SQ is cleaner and less edgy than their recievers.

The Classe SSP-800 has me curious. IF they have a clean HDMI implementation, I will definetly give it a listen. It would go great with my Classe CAM-350 amps. :B

Darrell

Nice to have you with us here on this thread.

[Z Man]

That's the thing, it's not an online sale. It's a phone order which is still considered "in store", they are advertising on a'gon.

It's similar to Pioneer Elite. You can't buy it online, but you can make phone orders.

Very true, It's like with Martin Logan or B&W, no online sales whatsoever, but a phone order is fine.

[sikoniko]

Today, the Denon is way better than the Classe, becuase the Classe isn't available yet. 8O

But, when the Classe is released, and IF it has a well implemented HDMI, this will be a valid question.

Please qualify that statement. Just because it has HDMI doesn't mean it is better.

I'll argue that the classe SSP-600 using 7.1 analog bypass has the potential to be as good as or better than the Denon over HDMI. Why? Because its an opinion. HDMI is not required to acheive the new codecs.

[sikoniko]

Currently, the Denon is $7k, so the price difference is now $1000.

Most Denon dealers also will give you a 10% discount. I haven't seen that with the local Classe dealers, so the street price difference could actually be higher than $1000.

But, even with that price difference, I would just buy the one that sounds best to me (that has working HDMI).

You need to be careful about how you qualify yourself. In one post you state audio quality is more important, but the above you imply price is a more important factor and you are willing to compromise for a cost point.

You also need to compare retail prices, not what your dealer will give you on one product vs. another. You can not guarranty what anyones dealer will offer its' customers on any product.

[hifiguymi]

Very true, It's like with Martin Logan or B&W, no online sales whatsoever, but a phone order is fine.

That is not true. Denon sees them as the same. If a dealer that is not authorized to sell online it is not authorized to ship to another territory. We get that drilled into our heads at every sales training Denon gives.

B&W is the same. Talking to someone over the phone from an online ad isn't the same as selling to them face to face. We get bulletins from vendors on a regular basis telling us about a dealer that was cut off for doing this very thing.

Eric

[sikoniko]

How does having extra features or adding video switching undermine the focus on SQ?

It has an associated cost for Denon. In order to provide that feature, they have to balance costs somewhere. It goes back to my statement that you have $100 to put into features, do you put $10 into 10 features or $25 into 4 features?

The value of a video scaler comes down to how much SD content you have and whether your video source has adequate scaling already. If it does, you are being redundant and investing in something that could be better spent elsewhere.

[Z Man]

For example, the PCM1796 DAC's it uses are not top-of-the-line TI/BB and they cost one-third the superior PCM1792 DAC's more commonly found in "high-end" equipment.

Just because Denon's engineers opted to use PCM1796 instead of PCM1792 does not necessarily deem the DAC implementation in the Denon AVP as sonically inferior. Denon could have used dual PCM1792's per channel, but instead opted to use 4 PCM1796's per channel. Now there may be a very good reason for Denon to implement this configuration. How does four PCM1796 DAC's per channel stack up to using two 1792 DAC's per channel? Maybe the Denon engineers saw a sonic benefit by doing it the way they did.

[dmccombs]

I would be highly surprised if any Denon dealer gave you 10% off a 7k dollar AVP.

You keep talking about the Denon AVP, like you have heard it. You keeping making uninformed comments, and this one is no exception.

OK, ready to be "Highly Surprised"? ops: That is the price I got, and he even loaned me a Denon AVR-4308ci for 2 months for free, while I waited on the AVP.
:jawdrop:

Yes, this was for a new one, from an authorized Denon dealer (not ebay or Audiogon).

[Z Man]

That is not true. Denon sees them as the same. If a dealer that is not authorized to sell online it is not authorized to ship to another territory. We get that drilled into our heads at every sales training Denon gives.

B&W is the same. Talking to someone over the phone from an online ad isn't the same as selling to them face to face. We get bulletins from vendors on a regular basis telling us about a dealer that was cut off for doing this very thing.

Eric

Well if an authorized Denon, B&W, Martin Logan, etc. dealer is not in ones area, then one can buy from an authorized dealer from out of state. If this was not possible then that would isolate all the people who do not have dealers in their area that would want to buy a certain product from a dealer elsewhere.

Now if a certain dealer for said product was local then one would not be able to buy from an outside dealer source. And if the out of state dealer were to sell to you, then that dealer could very well get dropped by the company.