Seeking PV1 Advice

[RebelMan]

I have been running my system with a phantom center for some time with results that have vacillated between good and excellent, depending on where you sit. I have been locked into this situation because of the limited choices I have had for including a well matched dedicated center channel. Recently I have stumbled upon an idea that may have some serious possibilities and could use some feedback.

Right now I have an ASW-825 sandwiched between a pair of 800D. In order to accommodate an HTM1D I would need to move my subwoofer to the side wall because of its size. Unfortunately, the response from that position is less than acceptable. Hence, I am thinking of replacing it with two PV1's and placing them on either side of the L&R mains, similar to what another poster did with one PV1 shown in his photo in Club Classe'

Does anyone here have a similar configuration? What are your thoughts?

[Nolan B]

I think its a pretty good idea, but i want to point out something you may want to know about the PV1 which i discovered concerning HT and 2 channel bypass.


I had my PV1 hooked but by both the high level and low level connection. I did this becuase when watching movies i wanted the signal from the coax input, and when listening to music in 2 channel bypass mode I wanted the sub to be active so I used the "telephone wire" conntector. For over a year I thought this worked, but had no real way of testing it.

2 Channel bypass worked 100% fine with the sub....what I could not confirm is if the coax signal would over ride the high level connection when watching movies. I was worried that only the LFE from the two front speakers would make it to the sub. It was hard to test. Then i rememberd that the cross over dial on the PV1 only works for the high level connection, so when watching a movie I decided to turn it all the way up then all the way down. If the coax was recieving a signal then there would be no change....sadly there was a change confirming if you have both connection use the high level connection overrides the coax :cry:

[RebelMan]

Interesting Vancouver thanks. I perused through the PV1 manual but didn't realize, until your comment, that both connection types could be ran simultaneously. Perhaps B&W built protection sensing circuitry into the PV1 to suppress the concurrent use of both signals?

I can see a possible solution that will allow you to use the PV1 for both music and movies. Eliminate the low level connection. Within the processor DISABLE the LFE channel and set the L and R mains to LARGE. Your processor "should" redirect all intended bass and LFE information to the high level inputs on the PV1.

Fortunately, my intentions for the PV1s are more simplified as they will be for movies only.

Where do you keep your PV1?

[WI Rotel]

I run 2 PV1's. The results are nothing short of amazing. You preserve all of the PV1's virtues but you also get big, big sound. The PV1 is meant for smaller rooms thus for a larger venue 2 are mandatory rather than "optional". The connection is a no brainer, you can hook up each one to separate subwoofer (LFE) output on your pre or daisy-chain them, the results are the same. Forget the line level connections unless they are going to be used exclusivelyfor straight, unprocessed stereo. The PV1 will spoil you with their unrivaled clean sound. Congrats :T
Hope to hear your impresions soon.
BTW I simply have my PV1's about 2 feet away sideways and behind from each of my XT4's. You simply adjust the delay with the processor and the level with a soundmeter.
Here's the link to my setup pics ;

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=274474&postcount=893

Here's a pic with the new Elite pro110 plasma :

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php4?p=376706&postcount=1

[kmcheng]

I use one PV1. I absolutely love it. I have a small room (L:23 x W:10 x h:9) and I sit about 8 feet from the front speakers. The speakers face lengthwise towards the room. The PV1 is at the left front corner just at the foot of my left front. The reason I went through all that is I want to point out the bass from the PV1 is still quite directional. I can clearly hear that the bass is coming from the left of the room. I am certain it also has to do with my room dimensions, but I can't help but wonder the clean, tight sound of the PV1, which I love, is actually exagerating the effect. Ever since I got my PV1, I have been trying to save money so that I can get a second one.

The other 5 speakers are the M-1's. These are small wonders by themselves, but they are clearly outgunned by the PV1. Hopefully I can replace them with either the CM7 or the 805S some time soon. By they way, any suggestions as to which speakers (CM7 or 805S) I should get?

[WI Rotel]

I use one PV1. I absolutely love it. I have a small room (L:23 x W:10 x h:9) and I sit about 8 feet from the front speakers. The speakers face lengthwise towards the room. The PV1 is at the left front corner just at the foot of my left front. The reason I went through all that is I want to point out the bass from the PV1 is still quite directional. I can clearly hear that the bass is coming from the left of the room. I am certain it also has to do with my room dimensions, but I can't help but wonder the clean, tight sound of the PV1, which I love, is actually exagerating the effect. Ever since I got my PV1, I have been trying to save money so that I can get a second one.

The other 5 speakers are the M-1's. These are small wonders by themselves, but they are clearly outgunned by the PV1. Hopefully I can replace them with either the CM7 or the 805S some time soon. By they way, any suggestions as to which speakers (CM7 or 805S) I should get?

As you have well pointed out the PV1 can be located if stuck into a corner, I think its mostly due to its unusual bipolar arrangement or the fact that its much more than simple boom boom.
The CM7 vs the 805 question is interesting, Another poster asked about the 703 vs 805 (without a sub) in that case I would pick the 703. To my ears the 703 sounds significantly better than the CM7.
That said, you have a sub already so I'd vote for the 805 no questions asked, particularly with 2 subs! Although I haven't heard the combination but the PV1 should be a fabulous match to the 805 since for both the biggest attribute is absolutely clean, undistorted sound. The PV1 should "complete" the 805 handsomely.

[Nolan B]

Interesting Vancouver thanks. I perused through the PV1 manual but didn't realize, until your comment, that both connection types could be ran simultaneously. Perhaps B&W built protection sensing circuitry into the PV1 to suppress the concurrent use of both signals?

Actualy when I contacted B&W they said they had no idea what would happen if i connected both. I really dont know what happens internally. Id love to ask a B&W tech guy or developer. Im surprised it was never thought that someone would want to hook up their PV1 the way I do.

I can see a possible solution that will allow you to use the PV1 for both music and movies. Eliminate the low level connection. Within the processor DISABLE the LFE channel and set the L and R mains to LARGE. Your processor "should" redirect all intended bass and LFE information to the high level inputs on the PV1.

Thats interesting an I would hever have guess this would work. So if I set my two front mains to Large even the LFE from the centre and rear channels would get redirected to the front L and front R?

Where do you keep your PV1?

I keep mine under a customer made table I had build for my center channel.

[RebelMan]

Thats interesting an I would hever have guess this would work. So if I set my two front mains to Large even the LFE from the centre and rear channels would get redirected to the front L and front R?

Yes.

Bass and LFE information are different and depending on how your processor is configured will dictate how the information gets distributed among the speakers. The processor is not concerned with specific channels (LCR, etcetera) only with how they are configured. In general SMALL speakers redirect bass, LARGE speakers do not. LFE is not bass, it is sub-bass, but it can be redirected.

Telling the processor you do not have a subwoofer instructs the processor to send all LFE information to speakers classified as LARGE. In reality YOU have a subwoofer BUT the subwoofer will never get the LFE information because of the way you have your subwoofer wired (using both connection types). Disabling the LFE/SUB channel within your processor will send LFE information to ALL speakers defined as LARGE (L and R in your case). However, your LARGE speakers are not capable of producing low bass or sub-bass BUT your PV1 can because it is connected in parallel with your LARGE speakers.

This setup will let you enjoy your movies with LFE tracks AND low bass from music sources too. Furthermore, the low level cable can be removed as it would not be needed (in YOUR case).

BTW, nice pic, thanks!

[RebelMan]

I noticed some of you are facing the PV1 dipole drivers toward's the listener and the back of the room. Does it work better in this position than it would facing the "B&W" logo toward's the listener with the dipole drivers facing 90 degrees with respect to the listener or was it a cosmetic decision?

[kmcheng]

The one PV1 I use is facing sideways with the "B&W" logo towards the listening position. The bass is still quite directional. Don't get me wrong, I think the PV1 is fantastic. You just need two of them to double the pleasure.

On CM7 vs. 805S: I think everyone is telling me to get the 805S. So with the pair of 805S and a second PV1, I would need to wait several more months before my savings catches up, but what's a few months if I don't need to replace the 805s in the next 10 years?

[Nolan B]

Yes.

Bass and LFE information are different and depending on how your processor is configured will dictate how the information gets distributed among the speakers. The processor is not concerned with specific channels (LCR, etcetera) only with how they are configured. In general SMALL speakers redirect bass, LARGE speakers do not. LFE is not bass, it is sub-bass, but it can be redirected.

Telling the processor you do not have a subwoofer instructs the processor to send all LFE information to speakers classified as LARGE. In reality YOU have a subwoofer BUT the subwoofer will never get the LFE information because of the way you have your subwoofer wired (using both connection types). Disabling the LFE/SUB channel within your processor will send LFE information to ALL speakers defined as LARGE (L and R in your case). However, your LARGE speakers are not capable of producing low bass or sub-bass BUT your PV1 can because it is connected in parallel with your LARGE speakers.

This setup will let you enjoy your movies with LFE tracks AND low bass from music sources too. Furthermore, the low level cable can be removed as it would not be needed (in YOUR case).

BTW, nice pic, thanks!

im still a little confused about this. If for example an exlosion happens that is only heard in the suround speakers why would bass be sent to the front L and R speakers? The high level connection only connects to those to speakers as you know.

Or is it automatic that all bass gets sent to the speakers set to large?

[RebelMan]

im still a little confused about this. If for example an exlosion happens that is only heard in the suround speakers why would bass be sent to the front L and R speakers? The high level connection only connects to those to speakers as you know.

Or is it automatic that all bass gets sent to the speakers set to large?

In theory (and in many cases in practice) all speakers in an 5.1 (7.1) HT configuration should be set to SMALL with a crossover point set to 80Hz in the processor. The processor will redirect all bass below 80Hz from the SMALL speakers to the subwoofer. Because low bass is non-directional it is irrelevant which channel the bass was intended for. If an explosion occurs in the surrounds, upper bass (which is directional) will still be heard but the low and mid-bass "effects" will be redirected and reproduced by the subwoofer.

The low frequency effects (LFE) (really sub-bass effects) that are created by the recording engineer are intended to be produced by the subwoofer only. Sub-bass is below bass, that is below 20Hz. However, most loudspeakers are not good producers of low bass either. Therefore, the responsibilities of giving the subwoofer sub-bass and low bass information are necessitated. This is why most processors start with crossover settings of 40Hz and not 20Hz (the first octave 20Hz-40Hz is low bass).

The above describes how 5.1 (7.1) HT should be. In practice it's not always possible to follow, as in your case. You want to use your subwoofer for listening to music and watching movies. If what you said was true that the PV1 will disable the low-level connection when it senses signals on the high-level (speaker-level) connection then you need to "fool" your processor into thinking that you don't have a subwoofer when in actuality you do.

By setting your L and R channels to LARGE and the rest to SMALL and disabling the LFE/SUB channel in the processor, ALL BASS (including sub-bass - LFE) below the crossover point will be re-directed to the LARGE speakers. Your L and R speaker can't play low bass and sub-bass very well but the PV1 which is connected in parallel (using the RJ11 connector) can. The L and R and subwoofer speakers will all receive the same information but only play down to the roll-off frequencies that they can produce.

If you set the L and R as LARGE and did not disable the LFE/SUB channel in the processor then bass below the crossover frequency for SMALL speakers will be re-directed to the subwoofer only. Some processors will, however, offer an option to redirect SMALL bass to both LARGE speakers and the subwoofer. The defeatable feature is sometimes termed "enhanced"-bass. Of course this would only work if you were using the low-level connection. YOU can't because you are using the PV1 for music as well as movies and ( according to you ) the PV1 will only allow the use of one type of connection at a time.

Processors are built with the assumption that they will be used with a subwoofer. They are also built with the assumption that not everyone will have or want a subwoofer but will still want to hear the information intended for them as some speakers can produce low and sub-level bass. If you didn't have an incentive to upgrade to the Nautilus before, now you do. :B

[Nolan B]

In theory (and in many cases in practice) all speakers in an 5.1 (7.1) HT configuration should be set to SMALL with a crossover point set to 80Hz in the processor. The processor will redirect all bass below 80Hz from the SMALL speakers to the subwoofer. Because low bass is non-directional it is irrelevant which channel the bass was intended for. If an explosion occurs in the surrounds, upper bass (which is directional) will still be heard but the low and mid-bass "effects" will be redirected and reproduced by the subwoofer.

The low frequency effects (LFE) (really sub-bass effects) that are created by the recording engineer are intended to be produced by the subwoofer only. Sub-bass is below bass, that is below 20Hz. However, most loudspeakers are not good producers of low bass either. Therefore, the responsibilities of giving the subwoofer sub-bass and low bass information are necessitated. This is why most processors start with crossover settings of 40Hz and not 20Hz (the first octave 20Hz-40Hz is low bass).

The above describes how 5.1 (7.1) HT should be. In practice it's not always possible to follow, as in your case. You want to use your subwoofer for listening to music and watching movies. If what you said was true that the PV1 will disable the low-level connection when it senses signals on the high-level (speaker-level) connection then you need to "fool" your processor into thinking that you don't have a subwoofer when in actuality you do.

By setting your L and R channels to LARGE and the rest to SMALL and disabling the LFE/SUB channel in the processor, ALL BASS (including sub-bass - LFE) below the crossover point will be re-directed to the LARGE speakers. Your L and R speaker can't play low bass and sub-bass very well but the PV1 which is connected in parallel (using the RJ11 connector) can. The L and R and subwoofer speakers will all receive the same information but only play down to the roll-off frequencies that they can produce.

If you set the L and R as LARGE and did not disable the LFE/SUB channel in the processor then bass below the crossover frequency for SMALL speakers will be re-directed to the subwoofer only. Some processors will, however, offer an option to redirect SMALL bass to both LARGE speakers and the subwoofer. The defeatable feature is sometimes termed "enhanced"-bass. Of course this would only work if you were using the low-level connection. YOU can't because you are using the PV1 for music as well as movies and ( according to you ) the PV1 will only allow the use of one type of connection at a time.

Processors are built with the assumption that they will be used with a subwoofer. They are also built with the assumption that not everyone will have or want a subwoofer but will still want to hear the information intended for them as some speakers can produce low and sub-level bass. If you didn't have an incentive to upgrade to the Nautilus before, now you do. :B

thanks Rebelman

Very informative post! Tonight i made the change by just connecting my PV1 by the RJ11 connector and in my processor set my two fronts to Large my centre and surounds to small and my subwoofer to "no".

I set the PV1 cross over filter to 80.

Is there any dissadvantage in sound quality with this set up for movies you can think of?

Seems like a very good solution to my issue.

[Nolan B]

2 small issues came up which I never thought of.

1.) I have a buttkicker which is hooked out by sub output 2 on the processor. I think however if I leave sub to "yes" and front L and R to large the bass and LFE should go to both the kicker and the L & R. correct?

2.) Any idea what would happen to multi channel PCM from HDMI? Would a processor actually process that and apply the bass management? or is it likely that the bass and LFE from the centre and surrounds get missed?

[RebelMan]

Is there any dissadvantage in sound quality with this set up for movies you can think of?

There is a theoretical down side in that you'll be driving the L and R down to frequencies that they will be unable to produce. In practice it will make no audible difference as the steep dB rolloffs will mask most of the distortion as will the SPLs generated by the subwoofer. Assuming the crossover point was set on the PV1 to achieve optimal two-channel performance then you'll achieve similar results for multi-channel sources (movies) also.

[RebelMan]

1.) I have a buttkicker which is hooked out by sub output 2 on the processor. I think however if I leave sub to "yes" and front L and R to large the bass and LFE should go to both the kicker and the L & R. correct?

Unfortunately, the choices (in your case) are mutually exclusive. Enabling the SW2 setting on the processor will redirect SMALL bass and LFE away from the L and R LARGE speakers, defeating your objectives to use the subwoofer for both music and movies.

2.) Any idea what would happen to multi channel PCM from HDMI? Would a processor actually process that and apply the bass management? or is it likely that the bass and LFE from the centre and surrounds get missed?

The processor would treat MCH-PCM inputs indifferently to other inputs that have their information processed in the digital domain. Low bass and LFE are treated in the same fashion regardless of input types that do not bypass the DSP.

[Nolan B]

Unfortunately, the choices (in your case) are mutually exclusive. Enabling the SW2 setting on the processor will redirect SMALL bass and LFE away from the L and R LARGE speakers, defeating your objectives to use the subwoofer for both music and movies.
.

Im lucky I guess. I just read the Rotel Manual and it says the following

"LARGE front speakers, SMALL center and surround speakers and a subwoofer: The normal bass from the SMALL center and surround speakers is redirected to the LARGE front speakers and the subwoofer. The LARGE front speakers play their own normal bass plus the redirected bass from the SMALL speakers and the LFE bass. The subwoofer plays the LFE bass plus the redirected bass from all of the other channels."


It also does say however " A potential disadvantage with mixed LARGE and SMALL configurations is that the bass response may not be as consistant from chanel to channel as it might be with the all SMALL configuration.

[RebelMan]

Im lucky I guess. I just read the Rotel Manual and it says the following

"LARGE front speakers, SMALL center and surround speakers and a subwoofer: The normal bass from the SMALL center and surround speakers is redirected to the LARGE front speakers and the subwoofer. The LARGE front speakers play their own normal bass plus the redirected bass from the SMALL speakers and the LFE bass. The subwoofer plays the LFE bass plus the redirected bass from all of the other channels."

Lucky? Maybe maybe not. It seems your processor is enabling "enhanced bass" (LARGE speakers get both SMALL bass and LFE) by default. Personally I would like to see more control in this area for fine tuning, a possible downside here. On the upside however, you'll be able to use your subwoofer simultaneously with your tactile sound transducer for movies and maintain the same setup for music. In this case I would say that you are fortunate.

It also does say however " A potential disadvantage with mixed LARGE and SMALL configurations is that the bass response may not be as consistant from chanel to channel as it might be with the all SMALL configuration.

The assumptions Rotel is making here is that you would be using low level connections to the PV1 and setting the crossover point at a level that could interfere with the natural rolloff of the LARGE speakers creating bumps and humps in bass response. This would not apply in your case because you would be integrating the PV1 with the FPMs (using the high level connections only) for optimal two-channel performance which will equally benefit multi-channel performance as well.

Try it out and let us know how it works for you. You have nothing to lose but potentially everything to gain from it! :B

[kmcheng]

Vancouver and RebelMan,

Thanks for your very informative posts about the using the PV1 in 2-channel and HT. I am considering adding a two-channel integrated amplifier to my system, and am wondering if my set up would work, at least in theory.

2-channel: CD player -> Integrated Amp -> 805S & PV1. Both the 805S and PV1 are connected to the intergrated amp using speaker wires.

HT: surround processor -> Integrated AMP -> 805S for L&R channels
surround processor -> some other amp -> Center and Surround channels
surround processor -> PV1 via the processor's pre-out

What I am wondering is when I am doing HT in this setup, would the presence of speaker wires connected to the PV1 disables the pre-out that the PV1 is connected to? I would set all speakers in my system to be "small".

You may be wondering why I have this complicated setup. Well, I have a CD player with a very good DAC inside and would like to bypass the DAC in my processor. (The 6.1 direct-in on my processor is already taken up by my HDDVD player.) The 805S is almighty in the high and mid range and I cannot see myself upgrading to a floor standing speaker anytime soon when I already have the PV1.

[Aldo]

Replacing your single woofer with 2 PV1 will give you better performance.
1st because they will cancel unwanted vibrations and resonances.
2nd you will get bass separation which will result in a more realistic sound.
I have 2 asw's at the front and the difference is big, vs one sub!
Though it depends on the room you are using, but as a general rule, 2 subs are better than one!

[WI Rotel]

My solution has been simple all, my surrounds are set to small with the crossover set at 80HZ, however my mains (XT4) are set to large with the cross over set at 60. Thus although the mains are set to large all the info below 60HZ is rolled to the subs! I see no reason for complicated sub connections, both my PV1's are connected to my rotels's pre sub1 and sub2 outs respectively. If you wanted to you could simply daisy chain them using the PV1's RCA output (thats what its for ;-) )

[WI Rotel]

Replacing your single woofer with 2 PV1 will give you better performance.
1st because they will cancel unwanted vibrations and resonances.
2nd you will get bass separation which will result in a more realistic sound.
I have 2 asw's at the front and the difference is big, vs one sub!
Though it depends on the room you are using, but as a general rule, 2 subs are better than one!

Agreed, from my expirience 2 subs is way superior to one no questions asked.
One of the great myths in audio is that subs are not "locatable", that is only half right. Although the brain will colocate low frequencies to a source of concurrent higher frequency (seems like the bass is coming from the satellites) it can easily differentiate loudness regardless of frequency! If the sub is in one corner of the room, that corner will be bass "heavy" compared to the opposite corner which will be bass "light". Thus, although the lower registers are not "directional" to the human ear, in anything but a small room the difference in "loudness" due to distance from the radiator (in this case the sub) will cause uneven (and thus crappy) sound particularly for music reproduction. In HT this is not a big sin since the subs are mostly for booms and such, most of the rest is dialog coming from the center or mains however for music reproduction its a big problem and IMO one of the reasons most "audiophiles" don't like subs in the first place. Another big reason is that most subs are pretty crappy boom boxes , the PV1 being a big notable exception! If you can hear a sub, its not very good, the whole idea is extending the envelope of the mains without you even noticing they are there! :T

[Mig17]

I heard many SVS and Rel all things sound bored so I stay clear of any subs