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I thought this might be of interest to some of you. Hopefully, at least Zaph (Krutke) and Jon Marsh may find reason to comment on my results or to add suggestions for others building these projects.
Pictures of the finished products are below. The build Threads can be found at:
Natalie P: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21373
Zaph Seas L15: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...ght=check+zaph
I hope this is useful. Enjoy.
The Goal: To create two sets of Floor-standing speakers with different, but close, WAF ratings and to examine the sound qualities to get a feel for what the creators intended for the crossovers. Both speakers can be built in smaller or larger versions.
The Speakers and Criteria: Jon Marsh’s gift to us all, the Natalie P, Versus Kohn Krutke’s venerable, but seemingly little-known, Seas L15RLYP / 27TFFC (Project 12, from now on referred to as the L15). Both speakers have been built by me as ported floor-standing versions to maximize opportunity for bass extension and to eliminate the stand that my three year old would just love to push over.
In addition, they had to be:
- tasteful to the eye,
- look good with grille covers (I used grey grill covers on the light wood of the L15 and thing it looks pretty sophisticated with the grilles on – a bonus),
- stand no higher than 48 inches for spouse approval,
- stand two feet or closer to the wall,
- be reasonably inexpensive since they were both experiments.
Cost of the finished Natalie Ps topped out at about 503 dollars (including cabinets that I built) while the Zaph L15 came in at less than 450, everything included.
John Krutke’s comment on the L15 design when I built them was – “That L15 project is ancient by DIY standards but it has withstood the test of time. Most importantly, the L15's breakup node has not budged over the years, a tribute to Seas consistency.”
The Room: The room is a 30 foot by 15 foot rec room with 8 foot ceilings at the back, an open stairway in the back left corner, and a vaulted ceiling in the front. The ceiling vaults up to 12 feet and the vault runs perpendicular to the length of the room. So, the area that houses the speakers and equipment is in the high ceiling part while the area behind my seating has 8 foot ceilings. There is no specific sound treatment in the room yet but the floor is carpeted. Also, there is a DW drum set in the back of the room next to the stairs. All of this will sound different once I have treated the room for sound but for now it is quiet and does not echo too much.
The wife (Co evaluator): My wife was the critical listener. She has a good ear for sound and was a classical guitarist taught by Segovia for a short while, and was also a former Oboe player so she knows what she is hearing. She hears things I can’t hear as well and submitted to listening through a number of songs. She has been pleased with the look of the speakers and likes the L15 look the best.
The Sound System: I was using my vintage Sansui G9000 receiver for an amp (160 watts per channel into 8 ohms). This monster sounds good and I have found little today at less than 3 grand to touch it. I also tried these on a high current NAD HT pre and power setup. I would love suggestions of other amps to try. The pre amp is a custom made tube amp made by a local guy. It has the sweetest phono stage I have heard so far. The music was played on a Sonos wireless music system piped directly into the pre. I also used my VPI Scout turntable and some 200 gram LPs that are quieter than any CD I ever heard. LP music was much richer and had more bloom to it by far. I did not use the Pioner RT-909 Reel to Reel deck this time but I will later. No CD player used here either. The DAC is in the Sonos. So, I had digital representations and pure analog representations. Had both tube and solid state equipment in combination.
The Music: In this test I had my wife listen to Steely Dan (Home at Last, Deacon Blues, Aja), then we switched to some Dire Straits (Brothers in Arms, Your latest Trick, On Every Street). From there we moved into a little Diana Krall (All or nothing at all), some Three Blind Mice (Midnight Sugar), a little Cristina Agulera (The Right Man, Hurt), Matt Bianco (Say the Word), and lastly, I listened to some Aaron Nevile after she was done. I did some listening at very low levels and again at loud volumes to see if there was a difference.
The Comparative Review
The Experience: This was an easy thing to rate. The experience with both sets of speakers was very nice. Neither is fatiguing and they are both open sounding and clear. Theysound better than any others that we have within the range of what they are supposed to to (i.e. they are not Bass hogs). They were compared to Spendor S5es (the sweet Spendors sound somewhat muddy or boxed in by comparison), Vandersteen 2Cs (the Vandersteens do nothing wrong but do not leap out at you screaming – RIGHT – as often), PSB Stratus Golds (These things just keep pumping out bass, thump, and volume but instruments (especially horns) were not as natural as either the Nat P or the L15 to us), and Definitive Model BP-8 (not particularly detailed or clear). I did those comparisons over a few weeks so it is hard to qualify the differences any more without using vague phrases.
Comparing the Nat P to the L15 directly we found:
- The Nat Ps are either a lot more efficient or the dual midwoofers put out more SPL at the same power output than the Seas because they were significantly louder without changing the volume. Neither cabinet set is poly-filled (just foam insulated on three walls). That seemed odd to me given that the Nat P has more crossover components. Then again, the L15 separates the crossover onto two boards (high pass and low pass).
- The L15s had a more natural sound to the instruments and voices to us. I had come to this conclusion before my wife heard them and she said the same thing. Well, specifically, she said the L15s sounded “prettier”. I knew exactly what she meant. The L15s made me feel more comfortable while listening. The background of the music seemed quieter and the experience was significantly more intimate as if the performers were performing for me only in a small lounge setting.
- The Nat P, by contrast, felt great to listen to but was more edgy (meaning highs were crisper and backgrounds on the Nat P were more evident and noticeable). This made us feel as if the Nats were going to become more fatiguing to listen to but that never happened. Never has since I built them. But still, there was the sense that when we switched over from the Nats to the L15s something in the music went away but the performance got more intimate. This was extremely pleasing to my wife. I likes it too but wanted the more crisp sound of the Nats.
- The Nats were extremely clear and open. While both speakers are what I would call open, the Nats were a clear winner here. They were more “airy” in the highs and cymbals and voices were much more clear and noticeable than the L15. Perhaps this was the difference in background silence that I mentioned. Since the Nats were giving me the full effect of instruments as they echoed perhaps? Because of this, however, a female singer belting out the notes (like Cristina Aguilera does on “The Right Man” can begin to make you feel like it will become an irritating sound but it never does. You know how when you anticipate something happening, even when it does not happen it feels like it had an effect on you. That is what it was like. The Nats never hurt my ears but they made me feel as if the should given the crispness of the sound on a song as thin sounding as that recording was.
- The Nat Ps have a distinctly larger sound stage than the L15s, which I guess was to be expected with the MTM configuration over the offset TM config of the L15. But, not only that, the Nat Ps seem to make the sound seem like it is being produced in a larger room as well, not just on a wider or deeper stage. The music was more enveloping even at the same SPL level. While the L15s sounded intimate like in a small lounge, the Nats sounded full and enveloping, like in a small concert hall.
- In Bass response, neither speaker knocks the walls down but each is sufficient. The Nats clearly provide more low-end thump due to the larger cabinets and the dual midwoofers. I am very pleased with the amount of bass from the Nats but will need to use a sub with the L15s on some songs.
- Male vocals. Mark Knopfler has a smooth vocal sound that I like and he sounded fabulous on both speakers. The mids are smooth and rewarding on both speakers.
- Neither speaker seems to be able to produce the kind of full range sound and dynamics necessary for convincing Orchestral or symphonic music but I did not expect them to. The sound great on this music but the “feeling” of the orchestral experience is not there.
- At low levels both speakers sounded great. The L15s sometimes seemed like they may have had a little distoion in the woofers at very low volumes but I could not decide on whether I was imagining it or whether it was really there. My wife had gone down stairs by this time.
- At high SPLs the Nat Ps begin to pull away. They remain open and clear while the L15s start to sound, I guess the word would be – Forced. The vocals begin to get an overpowering presence to them that seems to outshine the instruments. This only happens when I get to uncomfortable listening volumes on the L15s. The Nat Ps seem to have much less variation in the sound at higher volumes than the L15s.
The Conclusion:
On the negative side, the L15’s smaller sound stage bugs me. The Nat’s sometimes feel like they will get too airy and that bugs me (although it is mostly in my head). We loved both speakers but the Nat Ps were our choice for the better overall sound quality. We felt like it was more “audiophile” in its presentation (whatever the heck that means). They just seemed like the Lexus as opposed to the Toyota (celicas are pretty hot even though g35s seem like they should be better).
However, my wife said she would rather have the L15s. I could not disagree sine the L15s just had that magical “something” that it is hard to define. I could not part with the Nats until I upgrade them to the Modula MTM crossovers because I just love those speakers but the L15s make me want another music room. The Nats give me that “magical” feeling on some songs but not as many as the L15. But the Nats just feel “right” to me since they are more of the type of sound I normally prefer. I was surprised that we were so please with both as I expected the L15s were just a lower end experiment. Wow, if this is the low end, John Krutke, what do you suggest I build from your project list at the high end? And Jon Marsh, it the Modula MTM crossover improves on the Nat P, I may have to knock my self over the head to turn the damned things off! Let’s not be unclear here. The Nat Ps seem like a superior speaker in overall impression. The L15s have a more narrow scope of impact but sound just magical. This is a little bit of an apples to oranges comparison but fruit salad agrees with me.
Thanks to you both, John and Jon. I am amazed at your capabilities and please that you allow me to partake in your largesse.
The Pictures:
I am not great with a camera but I hope these will inspire some of you to build these great designs. Yes, those are Totem claws on the L15s. I had bought some a while back and finally got to use them. As you might guess, I like that look. I am building more, so key an eye out.
Images not available
Pictures of the finished products are below. The build Threads can be found at:
Natalie P: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21373
Zaph Seas L15: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...ght=check+zaph
I hope this is useful. Enjoy.
The Goal: To create two sets of Floor-standing speakers with different, but close, WAF ratings and to examine the sound qualities to get a feel for what the creators intended for the crossovers. Both speakers can be built in smaller or larger versions.
The Speakers and Criteria: Jon Marsh’s gift to us all, the Natalie P, Versus Kohn Krutke’s venerable, but seemingly little-known, Seas L15RLYP / 27TFFC (Project 12, from now on referred to as the L15). Both speakers have been built by me as ported floor-standing versions to maximize opportunity for bass extension and to eliminate the stand that my three year old would just love to push over.
In addition, they had to be:
- tasteful to the eye,
- look good with grille covers (I used grey grill covers on the light wood of the L15 and thing it looks pretty sophisticated with the grilles on – a bonus),
- stand no higher than 48 inches for spouse approval,
- stand two feet or closer to the wall,
- be reasonably inexpensive since they were both experiments.
Cost of the finished Natalie Ps topped out at about 503 dollars (including cabinets that I built) while the Zaph L15 came in at less than 450, everything included.
John Krutke’s comment on the L15 design when I built them was – “That L15 project is ancient by DIY standards but it has withstood the test of time. Most importantly, the L15's breakup node has not budged over the years, a tribute to Seas consistency.”
The Room: The room is a 30 foot by 15 foot rec room with 8 foot ceilings at the back, an open stairway in the back left corner, and a vaulted ceiling in the front. The ceiling vaults up to 12 feet and the vault runs perpendicular to the length of the room. So, the area that houses the speakers and equipment is in the high ceiling part while the area behind my seating has 8 foot ceilings. There is no specific sound treatment in the room yet but the floor is carpeted. Also, there is a DW drum set in the back of the room next to the stairs. All of this will sound different once I have treated the room for sound but for now it is quiet and does not echo too much.
The wife (Co evaluator): My wife was the critical listener. She has a good ear for sound and was a classical guitarist taught by Segovia for a short while, and was also a former Oboe player so she knows what she is hearing. She hears things I can’t hear as well and submitted to listening through a number of songs. She has been pleased with the look of the speakers and likes the L15 look the best.
The Sound System: I was using my vintage Sansui G9000 receiver for an amp (160 watts per channel into 8 ohms). This monster sounds good and I have found little today at less than 3 grand to touch it. I also tried these on a high current NAD HT pre and power setup. I would love suggestions of other amps to try. The pre amp is a custom made tube amp made by a local guy. It has the sweetest phono stage I have heard so far. The music was played on a Sonos wireless music system piped directly into the pre. I also used my VPI Scout turntable and some 200 gram LPs that are quieter than any CD I ever heard. LP music was much richer and had more bloom to it by far. I did not use the Pioner RT-909 Reel to Reel deck this time but I will later. No CD player used here either. The DAC is in the Sonos. So, I had digital representations and pure analog representations. Had both tube and solid state equipment in combination.
The Music: In this test I had my wife listen to Steely Dan (Home at Last, Deacon Blues, Aja), then we switched to some Dire Straits (Brothers in Arms, Your latest Trick, On Every Street). From there we moved into a little Diana Krall (All or nothing at all), some Three Blind Mice (Midnight Sugar), a little Cristina Agulera (The Right Man, Hurt), Matt Bianco (Say the Word), and lastly, I listened to some Aaron Nevile after she was done. I did some listening at very low levels and again at loud volumes to see if there was a difference.
The Comparative Review
The Experience: This was an easy thing to rate. The experience with both sets of speakers was very nice. Neither is fatiguing and they are both open sounding and clear. Theysound better than any others that we have within the range of what they are supposed to to (i.e. they are not Bass hogs). They were compared to Spendor S5es (the sweet Spendors sound somewhat muddy or boxed in by comparison), Vandersteen 2Cs (the Vandersteens do nothing wrong but do not leap out at you screaming – RIGHT – as often), PSB Stratus Golds (These things just keep pumping out bass, thump, and volume but instruments (especially horns) were not as natural as either the Nat P or the L15 to us), and Definitive Model BP-8 (not particularly detailed or clear). I did those comparisons over a few weeks so it is hard to qualify the differences any more without using vague phrases.
Comparing the Nat P to the L15 directly we found:
- The Nat Ps are either a lot more efficient or the dual midwoofers put out more SPL at the same power output than the Seas because they were significantly louder without changing the volume. Neither cabinet set is poly-filled (just foam insulated on three walls). That seemed odd to me given that the Nat P has more crossover components. Then again, the L15 separates the crossover onto two boards (high pass and low pass).
- The L15s had a more natural sound to the instruments and voices to us. I had come to this conclusion before my wife heard them and she said the same thing. Well, specifically, she said the L15s sounded “prettier”. I knew exactly what she meant. The L15s made me feel more comfortable while listening. The background of the music seemed quieter and the experience was significantly more intimate as if the performers were performing for me only in a small lounge setting.
- The Nat P, by contrast, felt great to listen to but was more edgy (meaning highs were crisper and backgrounds on the Nat P were more evident and noticeable). This made us feel as if the Nats were going to become more fatiguing to listen to but that never happened. Never has since I built them. But still, there was the sense that when we switched over from the Nats to the L15s something in the music went away but the performance got more intimate. This was extremely pleasing to my wife. I likes it too but wanted the more crisp sound of the Nats.
- The Nats were extremely clear and open. While both speakers are what I would call open, the Nats were a clear winner here. They were more “airy” in the highs and cymbals and voices were much more clear and noticeable than the L15. Perhaps this was the difference in background silence that I mentioned. Since the Nats were giving me the full effect of instruments as they echoed perhaps? Because of this, however, a female singer belting out the notes (like Cristina Aguilera does on “The Right Man” can begin to make you feel like it will become an irritating sound but it never does. You know how when you anticipate something happening, even when it does not happen it feels like it had an effect on you. That is what it was like. The Nats never hurt my ears but they made me feel as if the should given the crispness of the sound on a song as thin sounding as that recording was.
- The Nat Ps have a distinctly larger sound stage than the L15s, which I guess was to be expected with the MTM configuration over the offset TM config of the L15. But, not only that, the Nat Ps seem to make the sound seem like it is being produced in a larger room as well, not just on a wider or deeper stage. The music was more enveloping even at the same SPL level. While the L15s sounded intimate like in a small lounge, the Nats sounded full and enveloping, like in a small concert hall.
- In Bass response, neither speaker knocks the walls down but each is sufficient. The Nats clearly provide more low-end thump due to the larger cabinets and the dual midwoofers. I am very pleased with the amount of bass from the Nats but will need to use a sub with the L15s on some songs.
- Male vocals. Mark Knopfler has a smooth vocal sound that I like and he sounded fabulous on both speakers. The mids are smooth and rewarding on both speakers.
- Neither speaker seems to be able to produce the kind of full range sound and dynamics necessary for convincing Orchestral or symphonic music but I did not expect them to. The sound great on this music but the “feeling” of the orchestral experience is not there.
- At low levels both speakers sounded great. The L15s sometimes seemed like they may have had a little distoion in the woofers at very low volumes but I could not decide on whether I was imagining it or whether it was really there. My wife had gone down stairs by this time.
- At high SPLs the Nat Ps begin to pull away. They remain open and clear while the L15s start to sound, I guess the word would be – Forced. The vocals begin to get an overpowering presence to them that seems to outshine the instruments. This only happens when I get to uncomfortable listening volumes on the L15s. The Nat Ps seem to have much less variation in the sound at higher volumes than the L15s.
The Conclusion:
On the negative side, the L15’s smaller sound stage bugs me. The Nat’s sometimes feel like they will get too airy and that bugs me (although it is mostly in my head). We loved both speakers but the Nat Ps were our choice for the better overall sound quality. We felt like it was more “audiophile” in its presentation (whatever the heck that means). They just seemed like the Lexus as opposed to the Toyota (celicas are pretty hot even though g35s seem like they should be better).
However, my wife said she would rather have the L15s. I could not disagree sine the L15s just had that magical “something” that it is hard to define. I could not part with the Nats until I upgrade them to the Modula MTM crossovers because I just love those speakers but the L15s make me want another music room. The Nats give me that “magical” feeling on some songs but not as many as the L15. But the Nats just feel “right” to me since they are more of the type of sound I normally prefer. I was surprised that we were so please with both as I expected the L15s were just a lower end experiment. Wow, if this is the low end, John Krutke, what do you suggest I build from your project list at the high end? And Jon Marsh, it the Modula MTM crossover improves on the Nat P, I may have to knock my self over the head to turn the damned things off! Let’s not be unclear here. The Nat Ps seem like a superior speaker in overall impression. The L15s have a more narrow scope of impact but sound just magical. This is a little bit of an apples to oranges comparison but fruit salad agrees with me.
Thanks to you both, John and Jon. I am amazed at your capabilities and please that you allow me to partake in your largesse.
The Pictures:
I am not great with a camera but I hope these will inspire some of you to build these great designs. Yes, those are Totem claws on the L15s. I had bought some a while back and finally got to use them. As you might guess, I like that look. I am building more, so key an eye out.
Images not available
Both are superb.
ps. I like that monster Sansui. I keep wanting to get my hands on one of those big old receivers to play with, but I see on ebay that they still have quite a bit of value.
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