'The Maggie Projects', the introduction....

[ThomasW]

Good news. I think I'm going to land a $325 pair of mint MMGs in a few days! I'll attach them to the top of an H-frame with a single Dayton RSS390HF and run it up to 100-120hz. Should be a great project for under $700 in drivers/cabinets.

Cool, I think you'll be pleased.... :T

The nice thing about using MMG's is that they come with feet.... :B

[jonathanb3478]

The nice thing about using MMG's is that they come with feet.... :B

I would have said it was that ribbon sound, but feet are cool, too.

[Brandon B]

OK, woof under the speaker became moot. Just bought a pair of 1.6's, and putting the woofer under them puts them kinda too high.

Inside or outside seem better, and how close to co-planar is important? Couple of inches, or several millimeters.

BB

[ThomasW]

Those with OCD say that the acoustic centers must be aligned within 1mm or so. That's what Bill Kennedy used some 25yrs, when making the phase coherent single order 2&3 way speakers marketed under the Ultraphase name.

I'd say as low as 1.6's can play, you don't need to get that close given you could use a standard 80Hz sub out and adjust the distance that way. Or EQ with a DEQ2496 and use it's delay function, there one can adjust the speed of sound for changes in temp ...:wink:

[Brandon B]

I have the HE15 sub, but I am also using the SB10's from 60 up to 250 Hz with the maggies, which is more what I am worried about. I could put them under, but it really would put the 1.6's higher than they ought to be.

Putting them outside gives me a bit more depth to the rear wall, as I am also trying to keep the boxes short enough that they really don't act to exend the baffle of the 1.6 either. I am leaning toward inside to avoid any boundary effects since my room is "only" 14' wide too.

BB

[seattle_ice]

I've heard that the MMG's don't like to be pushed real hard to higher db levels. And even trying to keep the x-over frequency higher doesn't help that much.

Anyone have some real world db/clipping/distortion experience?

[Brandon B]

My MMGs were not up to the room they were in, which is why I went and got 1.6's. This was with them crossed over at 250.

So yes, they don't do so well when pushed pretty high. But for me, pretty high was for movies in a 14'x35' room, mostly open to a large 18' ceiling space room adjacent. And running without a center channel to relieve them.

On music, they did OK, since I didn't tend to run that quite as loud. They were straining a bit. Don't have an actual dB value for you, but if you are not looking for reference level loud, the MMGs do OK when bass is offloaded.

BB

[Mazeroth]

Well, my last attempt on Audiogon to get a pair of the MMGs fell through, so we'll see what happens this time. I contacted this seller after I was the 2nd viewer for his ad. I sent him 2 e-mails and when I came back to the listing there had been six total views. I even took a screenshot of the views just for the heck of it. If he tells me someone displayed interest before me I'm going to fall out of my chair. For $275 these are a great deal. I just hope someone doesn't tell him they'll throw him $300 and he sells to them. Also, I've heard the older MMGs actually had either a better ribbon element or a better crossover. Any truth to this?

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrplan&1159498626

[ThomasW]

There was a crossover change. You can find info about this here

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/articles/speakers.html

No MMG has ever used a ribbon element, they're an all planar element design.

[Mazeroth]

To say I'm not surprised is an understatement. These MMGs are "PENDING" yet I never got a reply. Unless view #1 of the ad picked them up they should have been mine.

Maybe I'm just not meant to have MMGs?

EDIT:

Just got this from the seller:

I'm sorry about that, I received at least 30 emails between 2 ad's I posted and probably missed yours. I'll go ask a friend if he is looking to sell his MMG's and will let you know...


I give up. Forget Maggies. It's pure DIY from here on out.

[Brandon B]

By the way, for Mazeroth and others who asked, I did sell mine to JSG. We didn't finalize the deal until this last weekend due to schedule conflicts though.

BB

[Brandon B]

There was a crossover change. You can find info about this here
http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/M.../speakers.html

Useful link, but a question -

The table says the MMG has a midbass effective area of 321 sq in. and the MGMC1 has an effective area of 471 sq in. for its mid bass. The MC1 is noticeably smaller both in overall size as well as in visible driver area.

What am I missing? Does it have front and rear drivers so it is double the apparent area?

BB

[ThomasW]

You're the special effects guy you tells us.....

[Brandon B]

I peered more closely at the MC1s. Really does not look back to back drivers. Half that value would appear to be right. But they also are quoted as having higher power handling than MMGs. Maybe the values in the table on those are for the pair? May have to call Magnepan and just ask.

My curiosity stems from trying to decide where a second pair of MC1s should become rear surrounds, or the present pair should move back and some MMGs become the side surrounds.

BB

[Brandon B]

OK, Wendell at Magnepan says the MUG table is goofy. The MC1 is definitely smaller in driver area. But he does say the MC1 has better midrange and definition, and that the MMG is not as well suited as a surround.

BB

[Hank]

Dennis: 8" off the bottom and 2" off the top, if doable, results in a double stack that's 76" tall and will fit in those 8' ceiling rooms. The owner of Magneplanar gave me a factory tour when I was on a business trip to MN a few years ago. I work at 3M and his father invented the Maggies while he was an engineer at 3M. I wonder if he'd make some "shortened" versions of the MMG's for a group purchase...probably not, but it's a thought. Hmmm...this is sounding interesting. Anybody want to buy a pair of RD-50's?

[ThomasW]

OK, Wendell at Magnepan says the MUG table is goofy. The MC1 is definitely smaller in driver area. But he does say the MC1 has better midrange and definition,

Okay

and that the MMG is not as well suited as a surround.

Mine certain work quite well in that role...

[Brandon B]

And they worked quite well for my system's main L&R for the last 4 years. I'll have to spend some more time with the MC1's and see what I think of them before I decide I guess.

BB

[Mazeroth]

They're mine:

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrplan&1159646586

Now, what to do for the subs...hmmm....

Thomas, you think a single Shiva in an H-frame would do the trick, in stereo, with the MMGs on top? I'm only going to be using these for low to mid volume listening. Four of the six Shivas I purchased off you are in my IB so the last two are just sitting there. I might as well give them a shot. :T

[mante]

Oh Hank,

"Anybody want to buy a pair of RD-50's?" And you are asking? I'm planning on building the Debussy.....

Craig

[ThomasW]

Thomas, you think a single Shiva in an H-frame would do the trick,

You can try, but I think 2/side is more realistic

[Brandon B]

You could also build one 2 driver H frame and center it between the two MMGs temporarily until you can swing another two shivas. I ran my MMGs like that for a little while with one of my 10" woofers. Obviously, it messed up the low midbass imaging somewhat, but the extended range was worth it to me.

Speaking of that, poking about I noticed Shivas are now a whole line of woofer products. I assume the 4Ω 12" is the equivalent to the older model Mr. Linkwitz used in his calcs.

BB

BB

[ThomasW]

Given all that's gone on I'd assume nothing with regard to Adire's products.

The 'classic' Shiva, being sold by CSS and Acoustic-Visions is the old Shiva, but it's not coming from Adire.

[Mazeroth]

Well, I've had the MMGs for a few days now and I must say, I'm REALLY impressed! I haven't had a chance to measure them, but from what I've heard, I may be using these for a long time.

I was thinking of cutting the 10" of excess MDF off these and pairing two MMGs per side, on top of each other, to create a 6'+ dipole line. After all that work, do you guys think it would just be easier for me to purchase one of the larger Magnepans? I know it's not really DIY, but it's close :B I was thinking of taking out the passive crossover and running my DCX2496 directly to the two planar elements, making it an active system. Use four of the DCX's 6 channels on the MMGs and the last two on the dipole subs. Should make for a pretty sweet setup, for under a grand.

Thomas, any update on your project? Also, have you taken or do you know of any measurements on the MMGs or any other Maggies?

Thanks again for the inspiration!

[ThomasW]

Christian,

You'll find it problematic to get a nice flat FR plot. Don't feel bad about that, Stereophile's Maggie measurements look like the Alps....:wink:

It was necessary to redesign the frame, since the steel tube wasn't going to work as needed. Now I'm using 1-1/4" mild steel angle iron. I have all the metal, but it's been way to hot to fire up the welding rig....

So I've been working a mock-up of how the MMG-Ws could be installed as an in-wall speaker. I don't have any place to use them that way, so I built a 3'X4' false wall section and am using it to document the process...The standard MMGs can be installed in the same manner, since they'll fit inside a standard 16"OC stud bay.

Here's the cutout with the blocking in place....

[chasw98]

I have been watching this thread with great interest from the beginning. I know nothing about dipoles except the concept (and I'm not real sure about that). I have heard maggies a very long time ago, and they were well respected but odd then.

Let me see if I have the object of this exercise here correct. A pair of MMG's (One per side for instance) with, say, a dipole bottom end (mid bass unit?) consisting of 2 12 inch or 10 inch drivers per side stacked on top of each other with the MMG unit on top of them being fed from a 2 way stereo x over and a pair of amps with enough juice to satisfy the MMG's and the bass drivers. Is that correct? 2 feet of drivers on the bottom with 4 feet of MMG on top equals 6 foot tall.

If that is correct, could you use a big sub to handle from 80 Hz down and the "mid bass" units would take over at 80 and cross out at some frequency that would complement the MMG's and let them shine in the region they do shine in?

Some questions about the MMG's. Will they play very loud? Say at 115 db SPL in a room 15 X 20 X 8 with a listening position 9 feet away. I have the room to place them approx 2.5 feet from the rear wall and approx 8 feet apart. Most commentary I have read has said that the MMG's reproduce acoustic and classical music wonderfully, but that for rocking out occassionally, they are not your heavy duty cone driver in a box. I guess what I am asking is that within their limits will everything play well, be it rock, an action movie, orchestral brass, etc? Does the fuse for the hi end blow occassionally or often if they are pushed?

I am also intrigued by the crossover mod that Thomas linked to showing a circuit that uses no capacitors at all! A purely resistive load?

Thomas, why use steel? Why not Aluminum angle iron? (I know, you have the steel lying around....). The company I work for is a major manufacturer in the welding industry and I have access to fabrication tools and materials almost for free. I can knock out an H frame for the drivers with something to bolt the MMG's onto and stiffen them fairly easily with a little bit of thought put into it.

Please educate me if I am being very simplistic and ignorant about this idea, but it sure seems as if a very good system can be built for less than $1,000.00/pr.
MMG's/pr $550
CX2310 $100.00
2 10 or 12 inch drivers $200.00
Materials for frame $150.00
Amps I already have.

Chuck

[ThomasW]

Chas,

I'm playing with the MMG-W. They're smaller and cheaper than the standard MMGs. The MMGs will sound better given their larger size and the fact that they're a 2-way where as the MMG-W are a fullrange.

I'm not setup to weld aluminum. So if there's a spare Miller or Hobart high-frequency TIG system floating around your shop, send it my way, and I'll hone my alu fab skills .....:wink:

BTW, another reason for the steel is to add not only strength but mass to the baffles...

Will they play very loud? Say at 115 db SPL in a room 15 X 20 X 8 with a listening position 9 feet away.

Nope, not a chance. If you want high SPL look at the Maggie 1.6s or larger models. The other high SPL option would be stacking pairs of the smaller Maggies and using line array of dipole midwoofers beside them. That's my plan for one of the later Maggie projects.

I don't know about the various XO mods posted on the MUG board. I suppose some day I'll get around to experimenting with them.

[Brandon B]

Does the fuse for the hi end blow occassionally or often if they are pushed?

Yup. I finally traded up to 1.6s as Thomas suggests after running a pair of MMG's for a few years with a pair of sealed 10" woofers crossed at 250 (and a sub too, from 80 down). I did blwo the fuses once, but it was during a movie played loud, and I don't have a CC right now.

They did pretty well at loud volume, even if they wouldn't quite do 115.

I've heard the comments about them not "rocking". but when you add woofers to the equation they do pretty well.

BB

[Mazeroth]

Thanks for the update, Thomas.

Brandon, how are you liking the 1.6s? It's very odd, but I was visiting my brother and a few miles from his place is a store called Audio Encounters, in Columbus OH, that is a Maggie dealer. I figured I'd go in there and take a listen to the 1.6s. The room they had them in was acoustically treated, and the one salesman (this guy knew his stuff, and wasn't pushy) moved them out from the rear wall about 6 feet and they were roughly 4 feet from the sides. I moved the chair to the center position and...yuck. They were being fed from a McIntosh CD player, a McIntosh pre, and a McIntosh amp. My signal chain? PC with a Chaintec AV710 optical out to a DEQ2496, to a DCX2496, to a Panasonic XR-25 receiver. I think they have me on electronics. I moved the seat, I moved the speakers, I tried everything I could to get those 1.6s to sound good but they sounded really bad. The frequency response seemed ok, but the stereo imaging and separation were nothing close to what my MMGs sound like. My MMGs are roughly 3 feet out from the rear wall, 2 feet from the side walls, and are about 8 feet apart, which is about how far I sit from them. I think I went on a little too much, but I was curious if you had a similar experience? I'd think the 1.6s would be at least as good, considering they use the same planar elements and magnets, right?

Well, the wife is gone and won't be back for 7 more days. I think it's time to make some saw dust!

[ThomasW]

The Audio Encounters room may have too much damping for your tastes. Given your equipment list I imagine you prefer a slightly hotter top end......

With any dipole but particularily with planars, it's all about finding that spot in the room where everything just 'clicks'.

The larger dipole planars can literally dictate how the room is setup. This means that optimal performance is obtained when the room is created around the speakers.....In comparison dipole conventional driver speakers are much more forgiving of less than optimal placement.

[Brandon B]

It's kind of funny you should say that Mazeroth. When I went to buy my 1.6's, the dealer had a similar setup. Out several feet from the wall, similar size room to my room at home, high end universal disk player and amp, might have been McIntosh, can't remember.

And sounded nowhere near as good as my MMGs at home. The pair was kind of new, but he said they had about 100 hours on them which should have been enough for them to open up somewhat, but I could not find a spot in the room that made them sound like what I thought they should. There seemed to be no imaging and they were "dry". Even accounting for a really damped room (I am used to that sound from our stages and studio rooms here at work), it seemed odd to me they could sound that way. The guy at the store here was very helpful and laid back too. Especially considering I kind of interrupted their annual inventory activity. But if I wasn't already confident in there being an improvement over what I had, there is NO way I would have bought them based on that demo.

"1.6s would be at least as good, considering they use the same planar elements and magnets" is what I went by as well. I figured at a very minimum, they would sound the same but go louder without fuses blowing.

Got them home, and right out of the box, they (brand new pair, not the demos) sounded a lot better to me than they had at the store. But not as good as the MMGs at first. It took a few days for the soundstage and imaging to fill in.

Now I am enjoying them quite a bit. They have definitely improved on the MMGs, but it's hard to say how much. A majority of the improvement seems to come from their size (duh?) as it places my listening position more in the middle of the speaker. And they can go louder with less effort.

And multichannel is much much nicer now that I have maggies doing surround duty. And a plug for UcD amps here. I bought a 4 channel UcD180 for surrounds, and tried it with the 1.6s. It was very nice. I will probably replace my Stratos with a 400 watt version as soon as I have a little extra cash to build one.

Anyway, the short answer is yes, my experience is nearly exactly like yours. Weird, huh? So rest assured if you ever go for an upgrade.

BB

[SE-Raider]

Maggie application

I've been following this thread with interest. I plan to add a set of speakers in my office to be used on my Mac. One of the options I've looked at is using MMG's. The speakers will be used on either side of my desk, and would be wall mounted similar to the center speaker mounting shown on the Magnepan site. I would use either a Rhythmik audio sub, or a sub as recommended here to match the MMG's characteristics. The room is about 12 x 12 (15 including a bay window offset) with a 9' ceiling. The wall behind the desk is a double door that opens to a two story foyer which in turn opens into a similar sized dining room. The wall to the right of the desk is built in book cases flanking a double french door that opens into a large family room. So while the room itself is fairly small, it effectively opens into much larger areas. The speakers would mount on the wall on either side of the 5' desk along the 12' wall. I will be placing sound treatment as necessary about the room.

Would the placement of the maggies as dictated by te room be too close to the side walls (about 3.5' from the desk corner to the corner of the room on each side)? Would I be getter off with a more conventional point source design.

Any experience or suggestions appreciated.

[Brandon B]

I don't know if MMGs are going to sound good in that setup. I tend to think it is going to compromise them. The MMGs really want to be at least 2-1/2 feet out from the wall behind them, and a couple of feet from the wall to the side.

I did have my pair in a 13-1/2 x 13' room several years ago, with my chair at one wall and the MMGs 2 feet off the opposing wall. This worked pretty well, so you could probably get them to sound decent in that size room, but I would not be hopeful about the wall mounting plan.

If you really need to wall mount, you could buy the smaller but more expensive MGMC1's, as this is their intended installation. They are $750 a pair through dealers only though. Their sound seems to be comparable to MMGs to me, and their smaller size is no issue in that size room.

The MMG-W's are the other less expensive option, but you are giving up some high end response if you go with those.

BB

[clearwaterms]

okay,

I have read all the 'maggie' projects on this message board and have a few questions.

I have a closet that I have my speakers in. It's a big closet and isnt very deep.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=23738 post 8 and 9 explain it

My plan would be to put the Maggies on either side about 1' in from the closet edges (behind those it's open wall) and the insides will be treated floor to ceiling with fiberglass to deaden the effects of the harmonics bouncing around in the room. my thoughts are an active cross over and a dipole 10" subwoofer setup set at say 100hz. this is for a home theatre... here are my concerns #1, SPL and power handling / requirements. #2, sound quality in my enviroment.

This is a theatre first, and for listening to music second. Are these a good candidate? or am I better with a more traditional box speaker?

[Jimmy Rigger]

Has any one used the HSU MBM mid bass with the MMG-W?

[ThomasW]

Never heard of it until I googled it. Seems like it would smear the stereo image if set high enough to actually help the MMG-W.

My MMG-Ws are gathering dust in the basement. Haven't been about to figure out an application where they sound good.

[Jimmy Rigger]

That is an excellent point. I had not thought of it. Perhaps, I will just have to until someone tries it.

[jdybnis]

My MMG-Ws are gathering dust in the basement. Haven't been about to figure out an application where they sound good.

Have you tried them as a pure mid?

[ThomasW]

Have you tried them as a pure mid?

I have RD75's for that. They have better top end, a wider and taller sweet spot.

[Paul W]

I experimented with them as mids. After investing work, everything sounds good at first, and these were no exception. They were "euphoric".

Ultimately though, distortion is quite audible at realistic levels and they have a characteristic "twang" at the resonance of the diaphram (it sounds like you would expect if you rap the frame with your knuckles).

[Brandon B]

I bought one to temporarily put in the system while I removed the Marchand for repair and upgrades.

Hey Thomas - a question. I just moved my Xm9 from my maggie HT/music setup to a music setup upstairs, and had begun trying to balance the woofer output to the speakers, when the marchand pretty much stopped having any lowpass output. It is still there, but is is really low. This is a 3 ch 2 way XM9, and the low outs as well as the sum out all seem to suddenly ahve the same issue. Any ideas on what would fail on this thing to cause that issue?

Trying to decide if I am better off getting it repaired, or just going with one of the behringers. The latter choice requires me to make up a bunch of new cabling because of the XLR jacks (and buying a behringer), so I'd rather fix the XM9. A visual inspection didn't show any smoked parts, it was just sort of working, and then it wasn't.

BB

[chasw98]

Brandon:
Have you tried swapping the IC's around? I looked at the schematic and IC3 amplifies the LO out. Try swapping it with another IC and see if the problem moves with the IC. If it does, then all you have to do is buy an IC to repair it. The rest of the circuit is all passive, the IC's are the only active components. Cost less than $10.

Chuck

[ThomasW]

Brandon,

Chuck nailed it. Look around for some Burr-Brown OPA-2134. Their cheap, they sound good. Do a Digi-key search for OPA2134PA-ND to find them

You're actually experiencing the same thing I ran into. I'd have Jon bring out a O-scope and we'd check all the circuits, burn them in for 24hrs. The XO would work fine for a few months then start frying op-amps again. I'm in a bit of a quandry as to what to do.

[Brandon B]

Well, turns out I am just experiencing dopiness. I was running my woofers off a DIFFERENT crown macrotech than I had been using, and the input sensitivity switch (which is inside the amp behind the input module) was set to 26dB gain (about 2.6v with this amp)) instead of .775 V, where it really needs to be for consumer line level.

I thought I had been diligent about eliminating all the possibilities (cable, amp channel, marchand channel, etc., source) but missed that one. So it is actually stlll functioning well.

Just having the high and low pass adjustments min'ed and max'ed respectively and still getting virtually no output from a 700WPC into 4 ohms amp seemed like something was wrong.

Thanks for the quick response though.

BB

[johnvb]

Thomas… I am interested in your “Project #2, MMG on a sealed box 12" woofer”. How is that experiment going, ready for prime time?

I am setting up a MMG “music only” system in an upstairs spare bedroom, 15/6 x 11/ 6 x 8H. Other than a makeshift bookcase/cabinet against one wall, used as a home office, this room will be dedicated to the maggies. No real placement issues, but pretty much nearfield listening.

I have a pair of MMGs and a couple of Aragon amps (1 8008BB, 1-8002) to use, plan on starting off with just a Squeezebox music server as the source.

Was originally going to use the Aragons, along with a Behringer DCX24/96, to active bi-amp. Along with a couple of Rythmik 12” subs, with their own servo amps. While I guess this would work, I’m thinking now it’s overkill, obviously more $$$, and plus I will have to deal with the digital x-over (maybe even add an extra gain control after the DCX).

So…now thinking I can start by using the 8002 on the MMGs (w/modded passive x-over) and the 8008 w/ Behringer x-over on a couple of 12” sealed subs. Can you recommend some drivers (using the PE, or similar size box)? How about 10”ers in a smaller enclosure?