Auto-Eq – Boon or bane to home theater?

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  • TommyV
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2007
    • 425

    Auto-Eq – Boon or bane to home theater?

    Not sure if this has been posted but I got this in my email box. I thought it was an interesting read.

    "At Rotel, we have been asked many times why our audio/video receivers don’t feature an Auto-Eq set up. The short answer is that while these devices do change the sonic characteristics, we don’t believe that they provide a real sonic improvement at this level of product manufacturing. Further, that the cost of including this feature comes at the expense of overall audio performance. For the more complete answer, please read on. The electronics industry continues to evolve at a remarkable pace and surround-sound electronics along with big screen TVs have brought the cinema experience home. However, not every new feature should be taken at face value as a real benefit. Auto EQ is the latest feature touted to add more value to home theater receivers. The premise of Auto EQ is that it takes the guesswork out of smoothing acoustic room variables through the use of a microphone and some digital signal processing. However, you don’t need to look much further than the comprehensive article from Keith Howard – “Anti-Node: Active Room-Acoustics Correction” in Stereophile – January 2008 to understand how difficult this is to do well, even with far more expensive dedicated EQ systems.

    While it might be construed that we are denigrating Auto-Eq because we don’t include it in any of our models, we stand behind our belief that this feature adds a cost factor that is far better off spent on higher performance parts, which can result in true sonic improvements. As an analogy, it is a bit like purchasing a Yugo automobile with heated leather seats, a powered sunroof, and 20” chrome wheels. The Yugo is then a little fancier than a basic Honda, but it still drives like a Yugo.

    In fact, in some instances, auto-correction equalization can do more harm than good. This is due to the fact that digital EQ processing at this level is nowhere near as sophisticated as it needs to be. A manufacturer’s home theater receiver BOM (Bill Of Materials), will quickly show that they simply can’t afford to add the processing horsepower (cost of the chip) required to get the job done properly and still be competitive. The end result is that a value engineered Auto-EQ chip makes a guess about the worst offending frequencies, but by dramatically altering those sound waves, they also end up changing others that can affect the sound negatively.

    If you are really concerned about getting the very best sound out of your home theater, or stereo system, you should consult a Rotel audio/video specialist. They know how it all goes together: how to position speakers in a room properly and how to set up your system’s software for bass management and speaker levels to get the best sound. If you are looking to achieve the absolute best in performance, they can also consult with you regarding room mode correction treatment materials, or on designing a proper acoustic environment from the ground up.

    At Rotel, we have not ignored the importance of having some flexibility in controlling room modes. Did you know that the new 15 series components have very flexible bass management options? They can provide independent speaker configurations and crossover settings for each channel and surround mode. You can even create basic “notch filters” for troublesome frequencies. As an example, if you had a room node at 90Hz, you could set the speaker mains to roll off at 100 Hz and the subwoofer at 80Hz. For even more flexibility, there are contour adjustments at 10kHz and 100Hz that can be set independently for each channel. These are acoustic adjustments that can subtly improve the performance of your system without creating wider problems. However, there is simply no substitute for a home theater system that is designed and installed by knowledgeable experts."
  • 1oldguy
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2008
    • 459

    #2
    Indeed.Thanks for posting.
    A Man should never Gamble more than he can stand to loose.

    Comment

    • Audiophiliac
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2006
      • 346

      #3
      They bring up good points and I find no fault in Rotel for deciding not to include room correction in their receivers and processors. That being said, the Audyssey stuff in a lot of receivers and pre/pros actually works pretty dang well. THAT being said, if you want to add room correction to your Rotel pre/pro, you can simply buy a standalone Audyssey EQ and go to town with it.

      Comment

      • Kal Rubinson
        Super Senior Member
        • Mar 2006
        • 2109

        #4
        Frankly, Rotel's arguments are quite familiar but not categorically mistaken. I do believe that their comment about the 15 series' ability to deal with bass modes is a bit over-reaching. That said, it has yet to happen that any manufacturer (except for Meridian) has offered a system with only bass mode corrections which leaves the basic speaker/room sound untouched but cleans up the most pernicious issues (and those that require the most heroic physical efforts to correct).
        Kal Rubinson
        _______________________________
        "Music in the Round"
        Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
        http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

        Comment

        • wettou
          Ultra Senior Member
          • May 2006
          • 3389

          #5
          Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
          Frankly, Rotel's arguments are quite familiar but not categorically mistaken. I do believe that their comment about the 15 series' ability to deal with bass modes is a bit over-reaching. That said, it has yet to happen that any manufacturer (except for Meridian) has offered a system with only bass mode corrections which leaves the basic speaker/room sound untouched but cleans up the most pernicious issues (and those that require the most heroic physical efforts to correct).
          Classé and Rotel sing to the same tune part of it si because they don't want to spend the money in paying licensing fees otherwise they would give their user a choice!!

          The SSP-800 new DSP chips support Audyssey pro!

          Dual-DSP Board Momentum Data Systems MDS DAE-7D (7503) Module
          - Texas Instruments Aureus DA710 Chip (TMS320D710A-300MHz)
          - TMS320C672x™ Floating-point DSP (3rd Generation Chip) — Offer's the industry’s most advanced DSP C compiler and Assembly Optimizer to maximize efficiency and performance optimized for high-performance audio applications.


          " Audio Stream Processing Dolby® Pro Logic® IIx,
          Dolby headphone,
          Dolby virtual speaker;
          DTS Neo:6; Double- precision (64-bit) bass management;
          THX Select2, THX Ultra2;
          TI Effects library; FIL – optimized floating-point filter library

          • Third-party IP available on AureusTM DSPs
          – Audyssey MultEQ XT, MultEQ, PrevEQ
          – SRS® Circle Surround II, WOW, TruBass
          – Waves MaxxBass®
          – Neural XM Surround"
          Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

          Comment

          • sikoniko
            Super Senior Member
            • Aug 2003
            • 2299

            #6
            Originally posted by wettou
            Classé and Rotel sing to the same tune part of it si because they don't want to spend the money in paying licensing fees otherwise they would give their user a choice!!

            The SSP-800 new DSP chips support Audyssey pro!

            Dual-DSP Board Momentum Data Systems MDS DAE-7D (7503) Module
            - Texas Instruments Aureus DA710 Chip (TMS320D710A-300MHz)
            - TMS320C672x™ Floating-point DSP (3rd Generation Chip) — Offer's the industry’s most advanced DSP C compiler and Assembly Optimizer to maximize efficiency and performance optimized for high-performance audio applications.


            " Audio Stream Processing Dolby® Pro Logic® IIx,
            Dolby headphone,
            Dolby virtual speaker;
            DTS Neo:6; Double- precision (64-bit) bass management;
            THX Select2, THX Ultra2;
            TI Effects library; FIL – optimized floating-point filter library

            • Third-party IP available on AureusTM DSPs
            – Audyssey MultEQ XT, MultEQ, PrevEQ
            – SRS® Circle Surround II, WOW, TruBass
            – Waves MaxxBass®
            – Neural XM Surround"

            I have not asked him, but I would not be surprised if that portion was not written by Dave Nauber of Classe. it reads like other things he has stated in the past.

            The original SSP-800 dsp supported Audyssey, so it isn't a matter of DSP in this case. I don't believe it to be an issue of cost either. I think it comes down to phylosophical differences the company(s) take on the issue.
            I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

            Comment

            • Kevin D
              Ultra Senior Member
              • Oct 2002
              • 4601

              #7
              Originally posted by wettou
              Classé and Rotel sing to the same tune part of it si because they don't want to spend the money in paying licensing fees otherwise they would give their user a choice!!
              How is forcing EVERYONE who buys their products to pay for auto-EQ giving them a choice?

              Kevin D.

              Comment

              • Kal Rubinson
                Super Senior Member
                • Mar 2006
                • 2109

                #8
                Originally posted by Kevin D
                How is forcing EVERYONE who buys their products to pay for auto-EQ giving them a choice?

                Kevin D.
                There's a switch off option in the menus. :W
                Kal Rubinson
                _______________________________
                "Music in the Round"
                Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                Comment

                • Kevin D
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • Oct 2002
                  • 4601

                  #9
                  Heh.. I didn't say force them to use it. But as soon as they pay for the licensing and software the unit's price will have to go up. Thus forcing everyone to pay for it regardless of whether they use or not.

                  Kevin D.

                  Comment

                  • 1oldguy
                    Senior Member
                    • Dec 2008
                    • 459

                    #10
                    Perhaps there could be a way of including it or not at the time of purchase the way Bryston does.
                    A Man should never Gamble more than he can stand to loose.

                    Comment

                    • Kal Rubinson
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Mar 2006
                      • 2109

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Kevin D.
                      Heh.. I didn't say force them to use it. But as soon as they pay for the licensing and software the unit's price will have to go up. Thus forcing everyone to pay for it regardless of whether they use or not.
                      If you look at the total SRP of some of the AVRs and prepros that now have the feature, it seems that the incremental cost of including the feature must be small.

                      Originally posted by 1oldguy
                      Perhaps there could be a way of including it or not at the time of purchase the way Bryston does.
                      It is probably more expensive to adapt the firmware to allow for switching the feature on/off (on a unit-by-unit basis and dependent on a licensing agreement) than it is to simply include it with the user option to defeat it.
                      Kal Rubinson
                      _______________________________
                      "Music in the Round"
                      Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                      http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                      Comment

                      • hifiguymi
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Mar 2007
                        • 1532

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                        If you look at the total SRP of some of the AVRs and prepros that now have the feature, it seems that the incremental cost of including the feature must be small.
                        Why do you say that? Just because it's in a $380.00 receiver doesn't mean it's cheap to do. Beyond the fact that most receivers have been cheapened up in the power supply and amplifier stages in the last couple of years to include all of these new features like Audyssey, the cost is spread out over a great number of units for most brands like Denon and Onkyo. Rotel sells far fewer than those companies do and the cost would be greater per unit.

                        Comment

                        • Kal Rubinson
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Mar 2006
                          • 2109

                          #13
                          I do not know the exact pricing structure but Audyssey has been incorporated into the major DSP sets used by the vast majority of audio manufacturers thereby minimizing (or virtually eliminating) the development cost. So, the questions are:
                          1. Is there an upfront licensing/development fee which must be amortized over multiple units? I do not know if such exist but, indeed, such an arrangement would be pricier(per unit) for small(er) manufacturers.
                          2. What is the "per unit" fee? Again, I do not know what this is but, if it can be accommodated in the SRP of $500 AVRs, it is probably not onerous.

                          The other issues you raise are, imho, not significant for a higher end product.
                          Kal Rubinson
                          _______________________________
                          "Music in the Round"
                          Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                          http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                          Comment

                          • 1oldguy
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 459

                            #14
                            It would appear it's not included because they can't but more to do with the politics of it all, IMHO.
                            A Man should never Gamble more than he can stand to loose.

                            Comment

                            • Kal Rubinson
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Mar 2006
                              • 2109

                              #15
                              Originally posted by 1oldguy
                              It would appear it's not included because they can't but more to do with the politics of it all, IMHO.
                              Well, I don't know if I would use the term "politics" or if I would prefer "philosophy." :W

                              Kal
                              Kal Rubinson
                              _______________________________
                              "Music in the Round"
                              Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                              http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                              Comment

                              • 1oldguy
                                Senior Member
                                • Dec 2008
                                • 459

                                #16
                                Perhaps it's somewhere in between:}
                                A Man should never Gamble more than he can stand to loose.

                                Comment

                                • TommyV
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Feb 2007
                                  • 425

                                  #17
                                  I personally feel better going with companies like Rotel (and Classé) who rely mainly on a sum of quality components working in wonderful harmony than for some digital algorithm to "correct" the sound.

                                  Proof is in the pudding and beauty is in the ears of the beholder. I personally think that Rotel's philosophy is working and it shows in the quality of sound produced.

                                  Spirited discussion on the pros ans cons of such applications is always fun so I thought hearing someone working at Rotel weigh in on the subject was worth consideration.

                                  Comment

                                  • Kal Rubinson
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Mar 2006
                                    • 2109

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by TommyV
                                    I personally feel better going with companies like Rotel (and Classé) who rely mainly on a sum of quality components working in wonderful harmony than for some digital algorithm to "correct" the sound.
                                    I really do appreciate that position but the argument loses weight as a distinction when you consider that there are companies of equivalent respectability that incorporate room correction.
                                    Kal Rubinson
                                    _______________________________
                                    "Music in the Round"
                                    Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                    Comment

                                    • mjb
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Mar 2005
                                      • 1483

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                      I really do appreciate that position but the argument loses weight as a distinction when you consider that there are companies of equivalent respectability that incorporate room correction.
                                      True, but does it really enhance the product/listening experience, or is it just another gismo that looks good on a spec sheet? Some products need to chalk up as many crosses in a review as they can, others can rely on their honesty of reproduction. Besides, if an enthusiast is reticent to use the tone controls, in the interests of signal purity, would he be interested in all out automatic room equalisation?
                                      - Mike

                                      Main System:
                                      B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
                                      Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

                                      Comment

                                      • Kal Rubinson
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Mar 2006
                                        • 2109

                                        #20
                                        Well, tone controls and room EQ are not equivalent. Tone controls are ad lib flavorings but they are abjured by enthusiasts for outdated reasons, mainly that their analog implementation introduces noise and/or unwanted phase shifts. With today's digital implementations, those are not issues but the bias remains. I am not an advocate nor an opponent of tone controls. They cannot correct room acoustics but they can help with poor source material.

                                        Room EQ is an effort to remove the pernicious acoustical effects of the listening room on the sound. This is less of an issue in stereo where room effects are essential to create an immersive effect, albeit a spurious one that varies from room to room. With multichannel, the ambience information is in the source and the room's signature should be minimal. One can accomplish this, ideally, with room design, acoustical treatment and careful setup. However, for the vast majority, even of committed enthusiasts, electronic assistance can be immense value, particularly in the bass where room treatments become obtrusively bulky. Thus, corrections below the "critical" frequency (+/-250Hz in typical rooms) and well into the low bass will clean up the total response and increase subjective clarity and balance. Corrections higher up are, imho, less valuable (given a decent system and room) although often more obvious to the casual observer.
                                        Kal Rubinson
                                        _______________________________
                                        "Music in the Round"
                                        Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                        http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                        Comment

                                        • Charlieu
                                          Member
                                          • Oct 2008
                                          • 55

                                          #21
                                          "While it might be construed that we are denigrating Auto-Eq because we don’t include it in any of our models, we stand behind our belief that this feature adds a cost factor that is far better off spent on higher performance parts, which can result in true sonic improvements."

                                          This is a good philosophy for Rotel, not for their customers. I suspect the vast majority of their receivers and prepros are not going into acoustically perfect rooms with high quality components. Therefore the difference in parts can't even be noticed. If the only way you could buy Rotel was with a custom install by a certified professional, then they would have a valid arguement against Auto-EQ. As long as customers can just walk out of the shop with the box, they are only blowing smoke with press releases like the one in the first post.

                                          Comment

                                          • 1oldguy
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Dec 2008
                                            • 459

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by Charlieu
                                            "While it might be construed that we are denigrating Auto-Eq because we don’t include it in any of our models, we stand behind our belief that this feature adds a cost factor that is far better off spent on higher performance parts, which can result in true sonic improvements."

                                            This is a good philosophy for Rotel, not for their customers. I suspect the vast majority of their receivers and prepros are not going into acoustically perfect rooms with high quality components. Therefore the difference in parts can't even be noticed. If the only way you could buy Rotel was with a custom install by a certified professional, then they would have a valid arguement against Auto-EQ. As long as customers can just walk out of the shop with the box, they are only blowing smoke with press releases like the one in the first post.
                                            Agreed Fine Sir
                                            A Man should never Gamble more than he can stand to loose.

                                            Comment

                                            • sikoniko
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Aug 2003
                                              • 2299

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Charlieu
                                              "While it might be construed that we are denigrating Auto-Eq because we don’t include it in any of our models, we stand behind our belief that this feature adds a cost factor that is far better off spent on higher performance parts, which can result in true sonic improvements."

                                              This is a good philosophy for Rotel, not for their customers. I suspect the vast majority of their receivers and prepros are not going into acoustically perfect rooms with high quality components. Therefore the difference in parts can't even be noticed. If the only way you could buy Rotel was with a custom install by a certified professional, then they would have a valid arguement against Auto-EQ. As long as customers can just walk out of the shop with the box, they are only blowing smoke with press releases like the one in the first post.
                                              if it were such an issue, then customers would speak very loudly with their purchases. I can't speak on Rotel, but classe has exceeded sales targets on the ssp-800. so the lack of an automated solution is not hurting sales to force their hand and add the feature. I've heard from both Classe and Bryston that is simple for them to enable it, as it is native to the DSP and it is relatively cheap for them to license. they don't do it because they don't want to. everything else is just conspiracy theory and assumption.

                                              it is my understanding that classe did testing in-house with various different solutions before coming to their decision. it wasn't just made because they wanted to be difficult.
                                              I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

                                              Comment

                                              • wettou
                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                • May 2006
                                                • 3389

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by sikoniko
                                                if it were such an issue, then customers would speak very loudly with their purchases. I can't speak on Rotel, but classe has exceeded sales targets on the ssp-800. so the lack of an automated solution is not hurting sales to force their hand and add the feature. I've heard from both Classe and Bryston that is simple for them to enable it, as it is native to the DSP and it is relatively cheap for them to license. they don't do it because they don't want to. everything else is just conspiracy theory and assumption.
                                                Yes the SSP-800 is exceeding Classé's expectation especially in this economy, which is why they raised the price to $9000!!!

                                                If it was cheap they would have given their customers the option.

                                                Originally posted by sikoniko
                                                it is my understanding that classe did testing in-house with various different solutions before coming to their decision. it wasn't just made because they wanted to be difficult.

                                                It still would have been nice for the user to have the option for Audyssey and THX you can always choose to not turn them off but if it is not even part of the package then the choice has been made for you
                                                Farming looks mighty easy when your plow is a pencil, and you're a thousand miles from the corn field."Dwight D. Eisenhower

                                                Comment

                                                • Ken49r
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Dec 2007
                                                  • 312

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by wettou
                                                  Yes the SSP-800 is exceeding Classé's expectation especially in this economy, which is why they raised the price to $9000!!!
                                                  ROTEL and B&W have also raised their prices. I don't see your point.

                                                  Originally posted by wettou
                                                  If it was cheap they would have given their customers the option.
                                                  The Audyssey Sound Equalizer or The Audyssey Sub Equalizer

                                                  Comment

                                                  • sikoniko
                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                    • Aug 2003
                                                    • 2299

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by wettou
                                                    Yes the SSP-800 is exceeding Classé's expectation especially in this economy, which is why they raised the price to $9000!!!
                                                    no its not.

                                                    If it was cheap they would have given their customers the option.
                                                    false



                                                    It still would have been nice for the user to have the option for Audyssey and THX you can always choose to not turn them off but if it is not even part of the package then the choice has been made for you
                                                    agreed. it certainly would end a lot of bickering on the boards. I imagine that only a fraction of the people that have actually bought the SSP participate on the boards though.
                                                    I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Charlieu
                                                      Member
                                                      • Oct 2008
                                                      • 55

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by sikoniko
                                                      if it were such an issue, then customers would speak very loudly with their purchases. I can't speak on Rotel, but classe has exceeded sales targets on the ssp-800. so the lack of an automated solution is not hurting sales to force their hand and add the feature. I've heard from both Classe and Bryston that is simple for them to enable it, as it is native to the DSP and it is relatively cheap for them to license. they don't do it because they don't want to. everything else is just conspiracy theory and assumption.

                                                      it is my understanding that classe did testing in-house with various different solutions before coming to their decision. it wasn't just made because they wanted to be difficult.
                                                      I don't think there is a conspiracy and I do believe they don't do it because they don't want to. I'm just saying that they aren't doing their customers any favors by having this philosophy. Anthem comes to mind in this instance. With their previous generation of prepros customers had an option to purchase their room correction system. It wasn't a low cost option and I believe if you purchased it after you already bought your prepro, you had to send the prepro back to the factory to be modified. Their current prepros come with the room correction system already in the box. That tells me that the customers did speak loudly with their purchases.

                                                      It's good that they care enough to test various solutions, but why not pick the best one they found, include it with the prepro and let the customer decide if they want to use it or not?

                                                      Of course we are only whizzing in the wind. The decision has been made. I scratched the 1570 off my list because of the lack of Auto-EQ, but I keep coming back to see if they changed their mind. When they do, I will own a Rotel.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Blindamood
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Sep 2003
                                                        • 899

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Charlieu
                                                        Of course we are only whizzing in the wind. The decision has been made. I scratched the 1570 off my list because of the lack of Auto-EQ, but I keep coming back to see if they changed their mind. When they do, I will own a Rotel.
                                                        Ditto. As a previous RSP-1068 owner, I have 'spoken' by NOT buying another Rotel processor. There are other issues that took me away as well, such as auto-updates via Ethernet connection. I love the Rotel sound (and still use my RMB-1085), but there are some modern conveniences that are difficult to pass up.
                                                        Brad

                                                        Comment

                                                        • TommyV
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Feb 2007
                                                          • 425

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Blindamood
                                                          Ditto. As a previous RSP-1068 owner, I have 'spoken' by NOT buying another Rotel processor. There are other issues that took me away as well, such as auto-updates via Ethernet connection. I love the Rotel sound (and still use my RMB-1085), but there are some modern conveniences that are difficult to pass up.
                                                          I am just curious. If as you say you "love Rotel sound" but refuse to purchase one without Auto-EQ, what processor did you replace the 1068 with?

                                                          Comment

                                                          • TommyV
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Feb 2007
                                                            • 425

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Charlieu
                                                            I don't think there is a conspiracy and I do believe they don't do it because they don't want to. I'm just saying that they aren't doing their customers any favors by having this philosophy. Anthem comes to mind in this instance. With their previous generation of prepros customers had an option to purchase their room correction system. It wasn't a low cost option and I believe if you purchased it after you already bought your prepro, you had to send the prepro back to the factory to be modified. Their current prepros come with the room correction system already in the box. That tells me that the customers did speak loudly with their purchases.

                                                            It's good that they care enough to test various solutions, but why not pick the best one they found, include it with the prepro and let the customer decide if they want to use it or not?
                                                            I think for Rotel it would not be cost effective to offer an upgrade option like that as they outsource their manufacturing. I could see them offering a stand alone Rotel branded unit. Classé might be able to offer that option as I believe they are an in house manufacturer but they have chosen not to.

                                                            Speaking of Anthem they also put high end video processors in their pre/pros. There is another philosophical difference from other companies and owners. I personally would prefer Rotel leave the scalers out of the pre/pros but many demand it regardless of whether it is actually beneficial. So I guess the point is each company has different opinions on what is and is not important as do the end users.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • hifiguymi
                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                              • Mar 2007
                                                              • 1532

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by TommyV
                                                              I personally would prefer Rotel leave the scalers out of the pre/pros but many demand it regardless of whether it is actually beneficial.
                                                              Since Rotel only uses the scaler on the analog inputs and not the HDMI, it's sort of like leaving it out.

                                                              Eric

                                                              Comment

                                                              • TommyV
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Feb 2007
                                                                • 425

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by hifiguymi
                                                                Since Rotel only uses the scaler on the analog inputs and not the HDMI, it's sort of like leaving it out.

                                                                Eric
                                                                So they kept the "Faroudja video processing" but made it like the 1069 with the HDMI bypass permanently turned on?

                                                                Comment

                                                                • mjb
                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                                  • 1483

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Why are we worrying about what features companies can and can't afford to add, thats a job for their design department and the board room.

                                                                  Comments about how Rotel (or whoever) can't afford this or that because they're a family run company or whatever are just rubbish.

                                                                  Do you think companies don't do any market research before releasing a new product? At the end of the day they want to shift boxes. Just because YOU want Audyssey (or what ever), doesn't mean everyone wants it.

                                                                  Our job is to buy the product with the specification that best suits our needs and or expectations, not one with features missing, and then regret it. If Audyssey is a must have, then by a processor that has it.
                                                                  - Mike

                                                                  Main System:
                                                                  B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
                                                                  Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • mjb
                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                    • Mar 2005
                                                                    • 1483

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Originally posted by TommyV
                                                                    So they kept the "Faroudja video processing" but made it like the 1069 with the HDMI bypass permanently turned on?
                                                                    Their "Faroudja video processing" is IMO unimpressive, I prefer to let the TV do it anyway. Another buzzword and a check box just to please the reviewers, that in reality no one needs!
                                                                    - Mike

                                                                    Main System:
                                                                    B&W 802D, HTM2D, SCMS
                                                                    Classé SSP-800, CA-2200, CA-5100

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • hifiguymi
                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                      • Mar 2007
                                                                      • 1532

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by TommyV
                                                                      So they kept the "Faroudja video processing" but made it like the 1069 with the HDMI bypass permanently turned on?
                                                                      Yep.

                                                                      Eric

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Kal Rubinson
                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                        • Mar 2006
                                                                        • 2109

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by mjb
                                                                        Why are we worrying about what features companies can and can't afford to add, thats a job for their design department and the board room.

                                                                        Comments about how Rotel (or whoever) can't afford this or that because they're a family run company or whatever are just rubbish.

                                                                        Do you think companies don't do any market research before releasing a new product? At the end of the day they want to shift boxes. Just because YOU want Audyssey (or what ever), doesn't mean everyone wants it.

                                                                        Our job is to buy the product with the specification that best suits our needs and or expectations, not one with features missing, and then regret it. If Audyssey is a must have, then by a processor that has it.
                                                                        Of course but some people seem to be defensive about their choices. :W
                                                                        Kal Rubinson
                                                                        _______________________________
                                                                        "Music in the Round"
                                                                        Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                        http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Kal Rubinson
                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                          • Mar 2006
                                                                          • 2109

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Charlieu
                                                                          I don't think there is a conspiracy and I do believe they don't do it because they don't want to. I'm just saying that they aren't doing their customers any favors by having this philosophy. Anthem comes to mind in this instance. With their previous generation of prepros customers had an option to purchase their room correction system. It wasn't a low cost option and I believe if you purchased it after you already bought your prepro, you had to send the prepro back to the factory to be modified. Their current prepros come with the room correction system already in the box. That tells me that the customers did speak loudly with their purchases.
                                                                          The fundamental reason for this is that ARC was simply not ready for public consumption when the earlier generation of Anthem processors came out. When it was, ARC was retrofitted to them but it is now standard on the current line. I do not believe that Anthem regards it as optional.
                                                                          Kal Rubinson
                                                                          _______________________________
                                                                          "Music in the Round"
                                                                          Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                          http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • sikoniko
                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                            • Aug 2003
                                                                            • 2299

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Originally posted by Charlieu
                                                                            It's good that they care enough to test various solutions, but why not pick the best one they found, include it with the prepro and let the customer decide if they want to use it or not?
                                                                            perhaps in their eyes, 'best' was still a compromise and not good enough.

                                                                            Of course we are only whizzing in the wind. The decision has been made. I scratched the 1570 off my list because of the lack of Auto-EQ, but I keep coming back to see if they changed their mind. When they do, I will own a Rotel.
                                                                            lets refer to any brand product that includes auto-Eq as brandA to simplify things.

                                                                            I'm curious. Why did you believe you needed Auto-EQ? to start simply, did you compare the 1570 against brandA without AutoEQ? If so, what did you determine? all things being equal at this point, would you have still preferred the sound of brandA to the 1570, or would the 1570 be the preference? lets say you liked the sound of the 1570 better without AutoEQ engaged on either product. If you engaged AutoEQ on brandA, would that have nudged it ahead? what if after listening to both products, you still preferred the 1570 even without AutoEQ?

                                                                            ultimately, I believe after listening to both options, you would determine that they both have compromises to your intent. The question comes down to where you want to make that compromise. If you didn't do the above test, then perhaps ignorance is bliss and the comfort of having the feature is all you really needed.

                                                                            Ditto. As a previous RSP-1068 owner, I have 'spoken' by NOT buying another Rotel processor. There are other issues that took me away as well, such as auto-updates via Ethernet connection. I love the Rotel sound (and still use my RMB-1085), but there are some modern conveniences that are difficult to pass up.
                                                                            again, as I stated above, we all have to make compromises. Your statement reads that you are willing to compromise sound for feature. you are not the only one that will choose that path. there are some that will take the other path. both options ultimately are for the purchaser to make, as long as we can stay away from casting negative judgement against those who take the other path in the end we all win. :T
                                                                            I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Kal Rubinson
                                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                                              • Mar 2006
                                                                              • 2109

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by sikoniko
                                                                              I'm curious. Why did you believe you needed Auto-EQ? to start simply, did you compare the 1570 against brandA without AutoEQ? If so, what did you determine? all things being equal at this point, would you have still preferred the sound of brandA to the 1570, or would the 1570 be the preference? lets say you liked the sound of the 1570 better without AutoEQ engaged on either product. If you engaged AutoEQ on brandA, would that have nudged it ahead? what if after listening to both products, you still preferred the 1570 even without AutoEQ?
                                                                              I'm curious. Even granting your hypotheticals, is that how most people go about selecting among their purchase options?
                                                                              Kal Rubinson
                                                                              _______________________________
                                                                              "Music in the Round"
                                                                              Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                              http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • hifiguymi
                                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                                • Mar 2007
                                                                                • 1532

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                                                                Of course but some people seem to be defensive about their choices. :W
                                                                                As are you when anyone talks poorly about Audyssey or any other auto room EQ.

                                                                                Eric

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • 1oldguy
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Dec 2008
                                                                                  • 459

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Curious,if one doesn't have room correction built in,is there a preferred way of getting the system to sound it's best?
                                                                                  A Man should never Gamble more than he can stand to loose.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • sikoniko
                                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                                    • Aug 2003
                                                                                    • 2299

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                                                                                    I'm curious. Even granting your hypotheticals, is that how most people go about selecting among their purchase options?

                                                                                    I highly doubt it, and that is, in part, my point.

                                                                                    If we were to post a survey anywhere, (here, avs, or any other HT based forum) and queried whether audio quality or feature list was more important, I would imagine it would almost be unanimously leaning towards audio quality. but when it comes down to it, I'd be willing to bet that people will sacrifice quality for features everytime, based solely on the perception that the features will compensate for the quality, or potential lack of.

                                                                                    I agree that there is a large perception that Audyssey has become the defacto standard. perhaps it has. car audio is incorporating it now, IMAX is, and so are studios. Audyssey must be doing something right. Why does Rotel and Classe continue to hold out? well... let me refer to the initial post in this thread. I'm not familiar enough with Rotel to know, but Classe's answer is to incorporate a manual EQ.

                                                                                    I'm not current on Audyssey's feature list, but I'd be willing to bet that the day they allow for manual tweeking, and override is the day classe and rotel would be on board. I don't mean a custom house curve, I mean full bandwidth manipulation at every point.

                                                                                    I wish they would license something like what Meridian offers.
                                                                                    I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • Kal Rubinson
                                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                                      • Mar 2006
                                                                                      • 2109

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by hifiguymi
                                                                                      As are you when anyone talks poorly about Audyssey or any other auto room EQ.

                                                                                      Eric
                                                                                      Indeed. I have strong feelings about the value of room EQ (although not specifically auto EQ) but I am not doctrinaire about specific products. So, regardless of the brand-name involved, if someone makes room EQ an issue, I will put in my 2 cents.
                                                                                      Kal Rubinson
                                                                                      _______________________________
                                                                                      "Music in the Round"
                                                                                      Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                                      http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Kal Rubinson
                                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                                        • Mar 2006
                                                                                        • 2109

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by sikoniko
                                                                                        I highly doubt it, and that is, in part, my point.

                                                                                        If we were to post a survey anywhere, (here, avs, or any other HT based forum) and queried whether audio quality or feature list was more important, I would imagine it would almost be unanimously leaning towards audio quality. but when it comes down to it, I'd be willing to bet that people will sacrifice quality for features everytime, based solely on the perception that the features will compensate for the quality, or potential lack of.

                                                                                        I agree that there is a large perception that Audyssey has become the defacto standard. perhaps it has. car audio is incorporating it now, IMAX is, and so are studios. Audyssey must be doing something right. Why does Rotel and Classe continue to hold out? well... let me refer to the initial post in this thread. I'm not familiar enough with Rotel to know, but Classe's answer is to incorporate a manual EQ.

                                                                                        I'm not current on Audyssey's feature list, but I'd be willing to bet that the day they allow for manual tweeking, and override is the day classe and rotel would be on board. I don't mean a custom house curve, I mean full bandwidth manipulation at every point.

                                                                                        I wish they would license something like what Meridian offers.
                                                                                        OK with me.
                                                                                        Kal Rubinson
                                                                                        _______________________________
                                                                                        "Music in the Round"
                                                                                        Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                                                                                        http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • B&W_Group_Fan
                                                                                          Member
                                                                                          • Sep 2008
                                                                                          • 45

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          I personally would like Audyssey included as an option in the product line.

                                                                                          I have owned Rotel products since @ 2004 and while I have been quite happy with the products I've owned, the option of auto-eq would let me experiment to see whether it made a positive difference or not in my listening space. Without it, I've always had a bit of a "what if" question in the back of my mind. Never a deal breaker for me, mind you, otherwise I could have purchased Integra or Denon.

                                                                                          The Rotel sound and build quality have always come first for me. Audyssey on top of that would be the "icing on the cake" as it were.

                                                                                          Just my 2 cents.
                                                                                          HT
                                                                                          Rotel RSX-1560
                                                                                          B&W Signature 7NT (x6) | B&W FPM6 (center) | Velodyne MiniVee
                                                                                          Panasonic TH-46PZ800U | Panasonic DMP-BD55
                                                                                          Apple TV

                                                                                          Kitchen / Dining
                                                                                          Rotel RB-1510 (RSX-1560 providing source)
                                                                                          B&W CCM 65 (x4)

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                                                                                          URC MX-880 w/ MRF-350

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