Ardent Speaker Camp

[ColoradoTom]

When can I place my order? :W

Seriously, having worked with BB ply a bit, I have to rate this as well ahead on some material properties- one reason it's sold as high end flooring.

Besides, every now and then I have to do something strange and inexplicable besides mutter about 1.21 jigawatts....

Actually I have access to some mesquite... now laminating THAT up into 3/4x12"x48" sheets would be interesting!!

You'd need a 1.21 jigawatt saw to rip it!!

Tom

[cjd]

My guess is that you did not buy from the best place.

You need to find a local shop that'll get Teragren stuff. They already make it thick! http://teragren.com/products_countertops.html - some VERY interesting bamboo-based products are available though. The end-grain strand counter-top would make a stunning baffle! But you can also get normal sheet http://teragren.com/products_panels.html - not to mention veneers.

[JonMarsh]

Very interesting lead, Chris- as I mentioned, I got my sample and first exposure at my Bay area Rockler store in Pleasant Hill. Thanks for the links!

The traditional style countertop top and bottom looks like the LBL material I bought- the flat side of the "planks" I got looks just like this top view.

Image not available

Interesting site.

[cjd]

Yup.

Most my floors are bamboo.

You saw they have 4x8 sheets up to 13/16" right?

[Paul Ebert]

Jon, do you plan to match the grain of the facets to the front? I'd like to bookmatch the front as you are doing. If I also match the grain of the facets to the bookmatched front, I'll have to order wider pieces (which is not a big deal). There's also the question of what to do with the top (horizontal) facet. Would you book match that as well, carrying over the pieces from the front?

Also, when you routed the veneer to do the bookmatching, how did you assure they would line up with them laying back to back? Did you do anything to make sure they didn't shift?

[JonMarsh]

Howdy Paul,

I've been using veneer packs from Sauers and Company, sourced through Woodcraft (you can order from them direct, but my local Woodcraft stocks a lot of the maple in 48" long packs, and the sheets in each pack are sequence matched. With the variation you get in Birdseye, which I'm using for the front panel, I found I needed to use adjacent pieces. When I open a pack, first thing I do is number the pieces and assign a letter for the pack, so I don't get things mixed up. So, my center front sections were done (as explained somewhat, further back in this post) bookmatched, and trimmed together as if folded back like a piece of paper- that is, one of the sheets is flipped over (usually the odd number, say #1), then the matching section for symmetry is against the Forum sheet, and checked. They should be VERY close, as the cut is on the seem between the two sheets.

Then I put them with the center adjacent and sticking out a tiny bit between two melamine sheets, and trim with a router to get a really flat smooth seam. Rarely is this seam good enough from the factory.








Notice I do use veneer tape to tie the veneer together and prevent shifting or pulling apart. (see earlier parts of this thread).



Then I clamped it up using Titebond cold press veneer and front sub panels as pressure fixtures.

The results on four front panel boards have been fine, so far.



Of course, what I'm doing this time is integrating the veneering into parts of the construction process; doing it after the fact is trickier, but similar in concept.

For the facets, I have some figured maple I plan to use mirror imaged; and the center facet will be mirror imaged also from that material. I have an idea about how to manage the clamping, but I don't want to talk about it until I've tried it out and see if it works.

I'm putting together a web site about this whole build process, there will be large section devoted to the veneering aspects, as it is kind of tricky when you don't have professional tools and processes. So far it's been working out fairly well. If nothing else, people will be able to learn from my mistakes. :W

[JonMarsh]

Let's see.... you both design, prototype, build, measure and modify......... I borrow everything you've done and build a jig (which I'm sure someone has probably done before)......... Sounds like we're even to me!! :rofl:

Tom

I'm also making some "refinements" to the jig design, this one will handle everything from an Ardent to an Irsiris-ta, and has some additional alignment "features". :W

So far, so good, have cut several bottom and top facets.... film at 11 if it continues this way.

[Jed]

So far, so good, have cut several bottom and top facets.... film at 11 if it continues this way.

Enjoy the fireworks while your at it. Happy 4th!

[JonMarsh]

Enjoy the fireworks while your at it. Happy 4th!

Thanks, Jed- you do the same!

Actually I plan to have whatever work I'm doing here wrapped up by three- then I need to consult for a friend on a bathroom floor/plumbing problem. Hopefully will get around to those fireworks later!


Work progresses- the part that makes me the most nervous is so far going pretty well- a lot of up front planning and thinking helps, but I hate working around an exposed blade.



I'd never suggest anyone else do this, but barring having a 12" saw, I haven't figured out a better way yet- the blade guard and feed prongs just get in the way too much.

Oh, and this cut went OK, too- this panel is ready to be glued to the back sub panel assembly.

Yeah, this is going together more like a clock than a speaker should... :W

[Hdale85]

I was wondering how you control the angle of the facets or the part that's being cut off? I understand how the jig works but not so sure how you make sure that each facet is cut exactly the same

[JonMarsh]

I was wondering how you control the angle of the facets or the part that's being cut off? I understand how the jig works but not so sure how you make sure that each facet is cut exactly the same

That will be clearer when I put the web site up- I'm not going into that level of explanation on the forum- too cumbersome. Yes, there is a process, and of course it depends on a taper jig. :W



Speaking of process, next process step is gluing the facet cut upper 2/3 of the front panel to the back most front sub panel assembly, as shown here- now things are starting to get recognizable. :B



There is a "process" to this also.... :yesnod:

[cjd]

With a jig that big and properly set up outfeed, your hands should be nowhere near that blade - there's enough mass that I doubt it's going to kick a whole lot either. So, it's safer than it seems, though I quite understand your reluctance.

Looking good.

[JonMarsh]

With a jig that big and properly set up outfeed, your hands should be nowhere near that blade - there's enough mass that I doubt it's going to kick a whole lot either. So, it's safer than it seems, though I quite understand your reluctance.

Looking good.

All very true, Chris, and of course, they're not near that blade- and there's never been any kickback with the setup I use- not in the previous set, or in this one so far.

It's just the principle of it, sort of like a grade B Horror movie about speaker building..... :rofl:

All that naked blade sticking up....

[Hdale85]

Ok thanks, that picture makes it much more clear. So really with the jig and the taper jig doesn't seem the facets are a horribly hard thing to do. Certainly have to measure 10 times and cut once as I wouldn't want to have to re laminate another baffle up.

[JonMarsh]

Last Day of Speaker Camp

More glue drying.... :W

[chasw98]

Why is it in all the 'construction' photos we never see any hint of sawdust. Almost as if you had prepped the scene for the picture, Mr. Deville! I mean, I clean up a lot, have a half way dust collection system but still, I get sawdust on a lot of areas and you don't seem to and there is not much dust collection in sight. Maybe just the 621 router and possibly the table saw. Are you really that neat and fastidious when building?

[Johnloudb]

Chuck, I see a bit of saw dust on the Scotch Brite cleaning pad. Maybe what Jon used to clean it up? And if you look careful you'll see a pile of saw dust below, the circular saw.

[JonMarsh]

The Great Carnack is a master of illusion!

Alas, I am not he....

John's pretty sharp eyed; the Scotch Brite pad is for any final cleaning and prep of surfaces prior to gluing, and there is a bit of sawdust on the patio floor at the moment- twill be gone by later this afternoon.

And yeah, I am a bit OCD about trying to keep the dust under control while working, and no sawdust is made in the room where you see gluing/clamping operations- that's the "clean room", considering how cluttered it is! All sawing, routing, etc, is done on the patio, and cleaned up as I go along each day.

I mean, I do my best, but I only have three shop vacs- a little leaks out now and then. :W


Of course, I suspect that Chuck thinks I haven't actually built anything these last two weeks, just been yakking on the internet, and all of these so called build photos are just CGI. :B

[CraigJ]

Chuck, I see a bit of saw dust on the Scotch Brite cleaning pad. Maybe what Jon used to clean it up?

My guess is that "dust" is actually excess glue that Jon has removed from the baffle glue up in the area between the two clamps. I believe the baffles were made "a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away........."

Last day of speaker camp. :boohoo:

[krips]

Jon, your baffles appear to be ~4" think. I know I've read places that the driver needs to "breathe" and the inside needs to be, or should be, chamfered. This is on baffles much less think than yours, usually 3/4". Is this a myth, or does the benefit of the mass of your baffle and the shape of it outweigh the benefits of having the drivers able to "breathe"?

[JonMarsh]

A cross section would make this clearer- the front panel is is made from three major sub pieces, and the front one is rear chamfered and the rear openings are enlarged in diameter, the middle and back sections follow suit. Here's a back side view of the top front panel section.




When all the drawings are finished including cross section sheet prints, some of this will be more obvious- this was particularly taken into account with the Accuton C79. The rear opening is similarly increased for the ER18RNX, which has less rear masking. For the RS100 version, it will be mounted in a aluminum plate of the same size as the C79.

[JonMarsh]

My guess is that "dust" is actually excess glue that Jon has removed from the baffle glue up in the area between the two clamps. I believe the baffles were made "a long time ago, in a galaxy far far away........."

Last day of speaker camp. :boohoo:

We were working on a larger size version of the DeLorean, in the hopes of taking the whole shop back a few years, then doing a months or so work, and returning to present day to start back to work tomorrow, but I've had trouble working on the details, and since I made ET do all the facet bevel cuts, due to his Force sense and steadier nerves (who has steadier nerves than a Sithlord?), he hasn't been cooperating.

But you're right, actually we ended up scrapping the baffles we were building here and had it subcontracted to Seinar Industries.

[JonMarsh]

Where's the Sawdust? Here....

Why is it in all the 'construction' photos we never see any hint of sawdust. Almost as if you had prepped the scene for the picture, Mr. Deville! I mean, I clean up a lot, have a half way dust collection system but still, I get sawdust on a lot of areas and you don't seem to and there is not much dust collection in sight. Maybe just the 621 router and possibly the table saw. Are you really that neat and fastidious when building?

OK, Chuck- I took this picture a few days ago- hope this satisfies you... :roll:

:W




Nothing super exciting the rest of the day, just ripping the laminated backs, sides, top plates to final width, and cleaning up until next Saturday.

Goodbye speaker camp.... darn... we didn't even have a weenie roast around the campfire!

[Hdale85]

That DW621 really collects very nicely. My friend has one and I plan on finding one or 2 for my shop before long they are just fantastic routers.

[JonMarsh]

That DW621 really collects very nicely. My friend has one and I plan on finding one or 2 for my shop before long they are just fantastic routers.

It's the essential plunge router for anyone's shop- if you only have one router, it should be the DW621. :yesnod:

[ThomasW]

And if you want to spend your time routing instead of emptying and cleaning shop vacs get one of these..... :T

http://www.dustdeputy.com/video.htm

[JonMarsh]

Jon, your baffles appear to be ~4" think. I know I've read places that the driver needs to "breathe" and the inside needs to be, or should be, chamfered. This is on baffles much less think than yours, usually 3/4". Is this a myth, or does the benefit of the mass of your baffle and the shape of it outweigh the benefits of having the drivers able to "breathe"?

This one pic shows or hints a little at how the top front panel section is back chamfered- you probably get the idea. It was modeled in 3D and checked with the physical drivers for clearance, too, particularly for the Accuton C79.

[Hdale85]

I was thinking of something very similar to that but much larger. It's a different company though can't remember exactly what the name was.


By the way Jon, the baffles look incredible. I love these Avalon inspired designs they are just beautiful.

[cjd]

I love these Avalon inspired designs they are just beautiful.

Perhaps you mean, you love these designs that inspired Avalon? :P

[Hdale85]

Quite probably.

[ColoradoTom]

That will be clearer when I put the web site up- I'm not going into that level of explanation on the forum- too cumbersome. Yes, there is a process, and of course it depends on a taper jig. :W

Jon.... one thing you can do here is cut a angled piece of wood to fit inside of the tapering jig to completely avoid any possibility of the taper jig changing angle due to stresses from pushing through the cut. If someone buys one of the cheaper taper jigs this becomes more important. Also cjd, just because this looks (and probably is) very heavy do not think that the weight will minimize kick back..... I launched a 12 foot 2x6 nearly 15 feet trying to cut corners in my more foolish college days and had I been standing behind it I might not have my two daughters. :E A bench or contractors saw probably won't carry that much punch... but I'm not sure I'd like to test any theories. :rofl:

Tom

[chasw98]

OK, Chuck- I took this picture a few days ago- hope this satisfies you... :roll:

:W

OK, OK, I believe you. Besides I have come to understand that this project might be taking a road trip come early autumn. So I might get to see and hear in person maybe possibly

Tom, excellent suggestion on the taper jig trick!

[kvardas]

Jon,

Wonderful speaker building! :T

Kris

[dwk]

And if you want to spend your time routing instead of emptying and cleaning shop vacs get one of these..... :T
http://www.dustdeputy.com/video.htm

Actually, I have a Clearvue CV-06 shop-vac cyclone which is similar to the Dust Deputy that I literally just put on Craigslist (decided to go for the integrated unit they now offer to save a bit of space). If Jon is interested in such a thing, I'd happily send it over in trade for the design and great documentation effort he's putting in.

[JonMarsh]

Jon.... one thing you can do here is cut a angled piece of wood to fit inside of the tapering jig to completely avoid any possibility of the taper jig changing angle due to stresses from pushing through the cut. If someone buys one of the cheaper taper jigs this becomes more important. Also cjd, just because this looks (and probably is) very heavy do not think that the weight will minimize kick back..... I launched a 12 foot 2x6 nearly 15 feet trying to cut corners in my more foolish college days and had I been standing behind it I might not have my two daughters. :E A bench or contractors saw probably won't carry that much punch... but I'm not sure I'd like to test any theories. :rofl:

Tom

I saw that in yours and was thinking about doing it, but the ones I got have enough hardware in there it was hard to find a spot to slide a block in. They bolted down pretty solid with the supplied lockwasher hardware ("they", as in the first one from Rockler had an issue, but two Green River ones bought from Woodcraft were fine, and I set them up for right and left, one each, so I didn't have to swap the feed hardware or handle around, lazy butt that I am.

With my roller out feed table and a new sharp 90 tooth titanium coated blade, things were running like a freight train on greased rails, went as smooth as I could possibly hope for, considering I was doing 3-5/8" deep cuts on the top facets with the table saw and the last 1/4" with a Vaughn Bear Saw (those are pretty cool little guys, figures, made in Japan).

The real trick was in the design, and splitting the front panel up into three sections, and only gluing the top part (with the facet cuts) to the back after completing the cuts, and getting the geometry to work right for those conditions.

Don't want to jinx this, but I feel like the tough part is behind me now, the rest is relatively conventional cabinet building. :banana:

[ColoradoTom]

I saw that in yours and was thinking about doing it, but the ones I got have enough hardware in there it was hard to find a spot to slide a block in. They bolted down pretty solid with the supplied lockwasher hardware ("they", as in the first one from Rockler had an issue, but two Green River ones bought from Woodcraft were fine, and I set them up for right and left, one each, so I didn't have to swap the feed hardware or handle around, lazy butt that I am.

With my roller out feed table and a new sharp 90 tooth titanium coated blade, things were running like a freight train on greased rails, went as smooth as I could possibly hope for, considering I was doing 3-5/8" deep cuts on the top facets with the table saw and the last 1/4" with a Vaughn Bear Saw (those are pretty cool little guys, figures, made in Japan).

The real trick was in the design, and splitting the front panel up into three sections, and only gluing the top part (with the facet cuts) to the back after completing the cuts, and getting the geometry to work right for those conditions.

Don't want to jinx this, but I feel like the tough part is behind me now, the rest is relatively conventional cabinet building. :banana:

Sounds like you've got it under control... When I first did mine it was a little scary with all that exposed blade staring at me. With the new Festool plunge saw I have I can do these very accuratly using its supplied guide and with the saw tilted to 45 degrees. I get a depth of a little over 2 inches with each cut and the final results are as good or better than I can do with the table saw but with a much higher degree of safety.

Things are looking really nice. Hope they sound as good as they are looking!!

Tom

[ThomasW]

Jon's not concerned about the exposed blade because he wears one of these when making cuts sans the blade guard... :B

[ColoradoTom]

Jon's not concerned about the exposed blade because he wears one of these when making cuts sans the blade guard... :B

I'm so disappointed........ where's the hand protection!! :E

Thomas.... are you building a pair of these as well??

[JonMarsh]

Sounds like you've got it under control...


Things are looking really nice. Hope they sound as good as they are looking!!

Tom

Yeah, that will be the $64 question, but I have hopes, based on the driver pre-testing and simulations... plus what the NeoD CC accomplished. I want to build a CC based on the Ardent, plus a bit bigger NeoD CC with the SS 2004/6620-01 tweeter, but there just aren't enough hours in a year... then there's the "Death Star" project, too, beckoning, and ET says he won't cut any more facets for me unless I sign up to that. I'm finally getting fairly good with my current CAD tool, so depending on how these turn out, we'll see.

I did get in some other bits last week, too- some manly binding posts from Vampire I'm using (they look rather like the ones on the back of the Isis)




and the cable for internal wiring of the midrange and tweeters....




Cardas SE-9, a 10 AWG coax speaker cable with low inductance. The woofers will be wired up with Cardas Crosslink cable.



I have a week off the beginning of August; we'll have to see how much progress I can make on weekend work and occasional evenings between now and then. Need to work on some of the piece part model to sheet files next, so I can finish fabricating the sides, backs, tops, mid range enclosure, and the baseplate. I've got my work cut out for me!

Oh, and then there's my day job (cue Imperial March from Empire Strikes Back) and new work guidelines (only in the office- no home office work!).

Yeah, Infineon is going retro, not green. :W

[Evil Twin]

I'm so disappointed........ where's the hand protection!! :E

Thomas.... are you building a pair of these as well??

You will find that the preferred technique is "hands off" - using Force Sense I can align the cutting sled to within microns of the ideal position, then with Force Push I turn on the saw and guide the workpiece through the cutting head, all without touching the saw or endangering my pristine black gauntlets.


Image not available

The results of previous practice attempts to make the required cuts manually are evident in the background...

[ColoradoTom]

I did get in some other bits last week, too- some manly binding posts from Vampire I'm using (they look rather like the ones on the back of the Isis)

Ooooooo..... naughty bits are flowing into camp!!

I've got most of the wood prep done and have all the forms built for my daughters bedroom set. Will be doing cut/dry fit over the next two weeks. Should be done 1st week of August. Looks like I might be able to start on a speaker project then.... which will be about the time you should be in the testing/tuning stage. I'm already softening up my wife about putting some "matching" speakers into the familyroom next to the new entertainment center. :B

Tom

[ThomasW]

Thomas.... are you building a pair of these as well??

Not these....If things go according to plan you'll be able to hear Jon's pair since he's going to bring them out in Oct.

I'll be building a closed box faceted front baffle design using the RAAL ribbon and Accuton C95 paired with yet to be determined woofer/woofers. But finished versions of the 'new' all dipole Whispers and a big line array, similar to the one being built by chasw98 come first. Both should be operational in time for the 09 RMAF. I'm shooting for the 2010 RMAF for my faceted front design.

[ColoradoTom]

Not these....If things go according to plan you'll be able to hear Jon's pair since he's going to bring them out in Oct.

I'll be building a closed box faceted front baffle design using the RAAL ribbon and Accuton C95 paired with yet to be determined woofer/woofers. But finished versions of the 'new' all dipole Whispers and a big line array, similar to the one being built by chasw98 come first. Both should be operational in time for the 09 RMAF. I'm shooting for the 2010 RMAF for my faceted front design.

Are you "showing" at the show or will you have people over to the house to hear them??

[ThomasW]

Two rooms at my house will be setup for auditions.

[JonMarsh]

Ooooooo..... naughty bits are flowing into camp!!

I've got most of the wood prep done and have all the forms built for my daughters bedroom set. Will be doing cut/dry fit over the next two weeks. Should be done 1st week of August. Looks like I might be able to start on a speaker project then.... which will be about the time you should be in the testing/tuning stage. I'm already softening up my wife about putting some "matching" speakers into the familyroom next to the new entertainment center. :B

Tom

Well, we'll have to see- I think you're moving faster than I am- it's looking like I'll have more business travel, including two weekends, than I expected this month- I'm crossing my fingers that DOESN'T pan out! :W

This next weekend I'm shooting to get all the piece parts milled and ready for assembly, but the weekend following that is one I may have to travel, and the one after that, too. That will limit my progress, in all likelihood, unless I can sneak some work in during the week. We'll have to see...

BTW, we'll expect pictures of the bedroom set if that's OK- I enjoy seeing your work!

~Jon