Official Wavecor Ardent Reference Thread - How we realized the Dream

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  • BobEllis
    Super Senior Member
    • Dec 2005
    • 1609

    Hi Jon. Nice to see you back again. I hope things are going well for you.

    Thanks again for sharing this design. My Ardents put a smile on my face every day.

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15330

      Makes me happy to hear that, Bob- I know the feeling.

      I'm going to try to be around here regularly now- it's just been a bear with all the stuff going on. As is, I'm working today also, finishing a report on a Class D chip and eval board from a Danish company we just bought earlier this year. And my plan for the rest of the summer is a trailer run trip to Idaho every other week to transfer off site storage there.

      that happened last weekend, and is scheduled for the upcoming weekend (I'm taking three day weekends for those trips).
      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
      Modula Neo DCC
      Modula MT XE
      Modula Xtreme
      Isiris
      Wavecor Ardent

      SMJ
      Minerva Monitor
      Calliope
      Ardent D

      In Development...
      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
      Obi-Wan
      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
      Modula PWB
      Calliope CC Supreme
      Natalie P Ultra
      Natalie P Supreme
      Janus BP1 Sub


      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • Renron
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2008
        • 750

        Bob, +1
        Ardent TS

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15330

          Originally posted by Renron
          Bob, +1
          :welcome:
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • Bad_tweeter
            Junior Member
            • May 2016
            • 1

            Originally posted by JonMarsh
            I'm with the other guys. If you have some measuring equipment, driving them in full range three way passive triamp would be possible in principle BUT, the filters and attenuation networks are inextricably linked- this keeps the part counts down and is part of the key to having a very flat impedance curve in the finished design. (just compare the Ardent impedance curve to an Avalon Indra, which is brutal for a tube amp to drive).

            The Ardent can be easily driven by a tube (or other high-ish output impedance amplifier) with little modification to the frequency response due to impedance interaction. But I'd say you really want something like a Dyna MkIV or more powerful to start... and some big Conrad Johnson's would be perfect. Or a used sample of one of the larger Sonic Frontiers amps.



            [ATTACH=CONFIG]28337[/ATTACH]
            I know I'm late to the camp. The fact that it's taken me 5 years to scrimp and save for three used amps and now I can start cutting wood. Then learning this, I thought all parallel
            crossovers can be bi-amped or tri-amped? I thought isolating the bands was conducive to runaway ohms, so to speak. Any passing thought are welcome.

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15330

              They can be, if you retain the passive crossover as designed for each cabinet, and make sure the amplifier gains match.

              This might also be an opportunity to use a solid state amp with more control and peak power for the low end, and tubes for the upper range as you wish. Gain matching the amplifiers with level controls will be critical, unless they're all identical. Otherwise, you'll throw off the frequency response.
              the AudioWorx
              Natalie P
              M8ta
              Modula Neo DCC
              Modula MT XE
              Modula Xtreme
              Isiris
              Wavecor Ardent

              SMJ
              Minerva Monitor
              Calliope
              Ardent D

              In Development...
              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
              Obi-Wan
              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
              Modula PWB
              Calliope CC Supreme
              Natalie P Ultra
              Natalie P Supreme
              Janus BP1 Sub


              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • Renron
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2008
                • 750

                Originally posted by JonMarsh

                This might also be an opportunity to use a solid state amp with more control and peak power for the low end
                Second that Doc, I've tried several amps (4) and the best one weighs the most. 250W A/B diy amp. More Power !!!! grunt
                There are several SS amps that are light weight that are beneficial with a good DAC. But it'll cost ya. I'll let those with more experience name them.
                (Marty's voice) "DOC, Where are you?"
                Ron
                Ardent TS

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15330

                  Originally posted by Renron
                  (Marty's voice) "DOC, Where are you?"
                  Ron
                  :lol:


                  On the bottom end of the music spectrum, a good value is a used Aragon amp in good condition. They run forever... I have several.


                  Right now, WKHanna pointed out a big sale at Audio Advisor for the Cambridge Audio 840W - that's over on this short thread, along with some background info on the 840W, which has a stout power supply and very nice bottom end (actually, very nice everything...)

                  Run silent, run deep, and let's dig in to measurements on audio components and system setups, and discussions of technical concepts and principles that impact component performance and the way your system sounds and measures.



                  I used one of those as a primary listening amp for years, until I got the Halcro DM68's. But the Halcro's are in storage in Idaho for a couple of years, pending a move there around the end of the year; the Cambridge 840W is my standard driver testing amp amp still (it's still here in CA), and I'm using Cambridge Edge W's for listening here in CA these days- got a good deal on them from a Canadian dealer... the Cambridge's have this XD biasing thing with an offset bias crossover point, and effectively at lower listening levels, they operate in single ended class A. The 840W uses XD, so does the Edge W.



                  The Edge W's are stereo amps, but they have a feedthrough connector on the balanced inputs, so what with making a phase crossover cable, you can turn the stere amp into a balanced mono block by cross feeding from one channel to the other, and taking the output across the positive terminals.




                  To revive an old turn of phrase from many years ago, "Wretched Excess", but works wonderfully when the Halcro's are far, far away...
                  Last edited by theSven; 25 May 2023, 21:11 Thursday. Reason: Update htguide url
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • Renron
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2008
                    • 750

                    "When the Halcro's are far , far away...... "
                    ROFLMAO
                    I've always liked the unique looks of the Aragon 8008. Oldie but a goodie
                    Thanks Doc.
                    Ardent TS

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15330

                      The really sweet ones are the Palladiums. Heavy class A bias, lower rail voltages, and also balanced mono blocks. I have older set and a post Klipsch set, too. Yeah, I'm a hoarder, so sue me!


                      Ya gotta have backups for the Zombie Apocalypse ya know! And I have a sort of oddball one, too, an 8008 X3- three channel. That has often been my testing amplifier. But it's a heavy brute- easier to deal with the 840W.
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • csmielke
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2015
                        • 109

                        Another power amp brand to consider if you can find them are the McCormack DNA225 and DNA125. I love my DNA125 and don't think I will ever get rid of it. You guys might need more power than the baby McCormack.
                        Chris

                        Comment

                        • kevinlin1013
                          Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 47

                          Since C90-6-079 has become discontinued(Might be able to order by request?)
                          Is it possible that a new version of Ardent based on C90-6-724 CELL with modified crossover be developed?

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15330

                            Originally posted by kevinlin1013
                            Since C90-6-079 has become discontinued(Might be able to order by request?)
                            Is it possible that a new version of Ardent based on C90-6-724 CELL with modified crossover be developed?

                            The only way to get C90-079 is to find NOS (new old stock) at a reseller. One forum member recently did that, and has started a Wavecor Ardent build.


                            The cell C90-6-724 is a possibility, but the off axis dispersion is not as wide as the 079, and it has frequency response irregularities which require modifying the driver, as is detailed in the Kurosawa design study.


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                            Both the C90-6-724 and the C168-6-990 have some design issues, IMO. (I have both and have measured both extensively). For the 724, the problem is that the magnetic structure forms a resonant tunnel. This must be damped right at the driver.

                            There is a brand new version of the C168, the C168-6-890- it's not even up on Accuton's site yet, and most vendors don't have it. This may solve the C168 issues.


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                            For the special 3rd order network configuration of the Wavecor Ardent, I am looking at the possibility of a PuriFi version with PuriFi woofer and 4" woofer used as midrange.


                            Click image for larger version  Name:	SPL_2.83Vrms_DS_M-2.jpg Views:	1 Size:	50.6 KB ID:	865567

                            But I'm also inclined to consider the SS 12MU4731 again.
                            Last edited by theSven; 25 May 2023, 21:12 Thursday. Reason: Update image location
                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
                            Minerva Monitor
                            Calliope
                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • kevinlin1013
                              Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 47

                              Jon , thank you very much for your explanation. I am always learning a lot from your posts.

                              While studying the thread of Ardent and Wavecor-Ardent , I found you are crossing the C90-6-79 with the woofer relatively low in the original ardent and relatively high in the Wavecor-Ardent.I knew that the crossover topology is Duelund transfer in the original ardent and the LR3 in the Wavecor-Ardent but I would like to ask the consideration of the crossover frequency consideration of both speakers. Thank you very much again.

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15330

                                Well, it all depends...

                                There are a few things that go into this, including woofer differences and fundamentally different crossover approaches. The latter is probably the biggest reason why...

                                The crossover in the very first Ardent was basically a Duelund. The fundamental design inputs are the center frequency and the aleph coefficient for all the variables. But getting a specific bandwidth for the midrange requires a specific Aleph and roll off characteristic for the other drivers. The ER18 is a paper cone woofer with a good motor considering when it was designed. Though the Duelund LP and HP ultimately devolve to 4th order, the initial roll off is only about 2nd order. So, some care is required for the target response, as you want it to track down to between -12 and -18 dB (my interpretation- tracking forever would be great!)

                                Now, a problem with this with the C79 and the ER18 is getting the phase tracking to work- due to the fixed offset of the time origin of the drivers. The lower the crossover frequency, the less the phase issue for a fixed delay difference.

                                A reminder, the target transfer function for the Gen 1 Ardent.


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                                Now, for the Wavecor Ardent, I decided to go with the house brand 3rd order crossover concept, as used in the NatlieP and Modula MT, after the success using it in the Isiris 3 way design study.

                                A brief recap of "some" of the essentials:

                                Imagine that we want to create a 3rd order crossover with a passing relationship to a Linkwitz-Riley crossover- that is, -6dB at the crossover point:


                                Click image for larger version  Name:	Imagine a crossover.jpg Views:	1 Size:	84.7 KB ID:	865960


                                Hmmm, at first blush, looks like it's problematical. But that's because virtually all the proposed crossover topologies are designed around the concept of drivers with identical acoustic origins... and how often does that happen in a real world system unless you go to some herculean efforts? (See Ardent D thread for example)

                                But normally the LF driver has a farther away time origin... pick a driver with the right phase offset at the crossover point.


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                                Just a tiny bit of tweaking can dial in something quite usable...


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                                But, the "gotcha" in all this is that phase offset is related to both the time delay due to design of the two drivers under consideration, and the actual crossover frequency chosen.

                                So, using this crossover type with the SW223BD02 and the C79 dictated a higher crossover frequency for everything to work out.

                                Fortunately, the Wavecor has a very stiff cone, a lot of copper in the gap, and extended upper range performance. And this takes workload off the C79, especially in the power range of the lower midrange. All in all, I think it was a good set of choices.
                                Last edited by theSven; 25 May 2023, 21:13 Thursday. Reason: Update image location
                                the AudioWorx
                                Natalie P
                                M8ta
                                Modula Neo DCC
                                Modula MT XE
                                Modula Xtreme
                                Isiris
                                Wavecor Ardent

                                SMJ
                                Minerva Monitor
                                Calliope
                                Ardent D

                                In Development...
                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                Obi-Wan
                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                Modula PWB
                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                Natalie P Ultra
                                Natalie P Supreme
                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 15330

                                  Originally posted by kevinlin1013
                                  Since C90-6-079 has become discontinued(Might be able to order by request?)
                                  Is it possible that a new version of Ardent based on C90-6-724 CELL with modified crossover be developed?
                                  Something we forgot to mention Kevin is that we did a modified version of the Wavecor Ardent for Renron, using a Scanspeak 4” midrange. They’r discussed in this thread, in passing, and they worked out quite nicely- go look at the frequency response specs for that part. I have all the documentation for it the design, should you be interested and not want to figure it out on your own… but the latter would be a good homework assignment, if you have some measurement gear and use the free design tool VituixCAD!

                                  There’s a picture of Ron’s I took at his home on page 18 of this thread…Ron is an absolute wizard on wood working and finishes, so if you have questions and can get hold of him by posting here or sending a PM, he can definitely point you in the right direction. I’m just a wires and sparks guy, but I can get by without screwing things up too much when it comes to builds.
                                  the AudioWorx
                                  Natalie P
                                  M8ta
                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                  Modula MT XE
                                  Modula Xtreme
                                  Isiris
                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                  SMJ
                                  Minerva Monitor
                                  Calliope
                                  Ardent D

                                  In Development...
                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                  Obi-Wan
                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                  Modula PWB
                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15330

                                    And speaking of that 4" SS 12MU4731 midrange, don't want to keep you in suspense...

                                    :W


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                                    :T
                                    the AudioWorx
                                    Natalie P
                                    M8ta
                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                    Modula MT XE
                                    Modula Xtreme
                                    Isiris
                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                    SMJ
                                    Minerva Monitor
                                    Calliope
                                    Ardent D

                                    In Development...
                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                    Obi-Wan
                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                    Modula PWB
                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • JBrock
                                      Junior Member
                                      • Dec 2022
                                      • 2

                                      I'm really interested in building a set of the Wavecor Ardent speakers. As several people have mentioned, the C90-6-079 is a distant memory (and it looks like the SW223BD01 might be hard to find).
                                      Is there another high end version of this build that I could follow? I'm well set up for the box build (tools, CNC, experience), but definitely not set up for developing my own crossover.

                                      Thank you!

                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 15330

                                        You may be in luck, so to speak. The preferred version of the Wavecor woofer was the SW223BD02, 4 ohm part, and Parts Express is showing those coming back in stock around 12-21-2022.


                                        https://www.parts-express.com/Waveco...064?quantity=1

                                        I have a set of 4 NOS on hand, but why not go with new as opposed to new in box old stock?


                                        As to the
                                        12MU/4731T-00, Solen in Canada only has one in stock, but there is an eBay vendor which I've dealt with that has six:



                                        https://www.ebay.com/itm/173950846989



                                        The original D3004/6650 Scanspeak Beryllium dome tweeter is still available, Madisound has stock, of course the price has gone up a bit.



                                        https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...eryllium-dome/



                                        If you go with this part, the original high pass crossover for the 6640 should work fine, but I can double check everything for you.

                                        OTOH, if you're annoyed by the idea of a $500 dome tweeter (I am) you might want to consider either the Satori TW29BN-B ($406.50) or an even better value, the TW29B-B with ferrite magnet, $199.


                                        https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...-black-flange/



                                        https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...errite-magnet/


                                        I have both of those on hand, and can update the crossover for the Wavecor Ardent for either one. That's actually something on our Honey-Do list, (recent update) since the news of availability of the SW223BD02 just came to light.

                                        And we're looking at using the ferrite magnet version in a two way with PuriFi PTT6.5X04 woofers.

                                        Also, note that Renron's build used some SS textile dome tweeters, and if you want to save another $50 or so on the tweeter, the TW29DN-B is $155- I have a new pair of those on hand, too.


                                        https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...-dome-tweeter/


                                        And if you really want to have something a bit off the beaten path, I have several new pairs of Peerless DA25TX, and combined with the 12MU4731 things look pretty nice... partly due to the ultrasonic notch filter in the tweeter crossover. That tweeter is now only available in OEM quantities, and would require some modification of the cabinet rebate and cutout, due to it's larger size.


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                                        NOTE! Steve Manning (SMJ) has done complete front panel assemblies for several builds of these, so if you want to simplify your construction effort, you might want to touch base with him with a PM.



                                        the AudioWorx
                                        Natalie P
                                        M8ta
                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                        Modula MT XE
                                        Modula Xtreme
                                        Isiris
                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                        SMJ
                                        Minerva Monitor
                                        Calliope
                                        Ardent D

                                        In Development...
                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                        Obi-Wan
                                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                        Modula PWB
                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                        Comment


                                        • letiennam
                                          letiennam commented
                                          Editing a comment
                                          Dear Jon, Could you sell me one or a pair of DA25TX ? I was able to buy one from Germany but have never found anyone selling the other one. I happened to see SW223 for sale in China for only about $190, they are very close to me so the shipping cost is very low. It's a great opportunity to do this project
                                      • JBrock
                                        Junior Member
                                        • Dec 2022
                                        • 2

                                        Wow, thank you for the awesome response! It looks like the SW223BD02 is actually available now on PE. Might have to snag those before they disappear again.
                                        I'm glad I'm not the only one thinking that about a $500 dome tweeter. It's been a while since I've built a speaker so a lot of the prices were a bit of a shock to me.
                                        That said, for a build of this caliber, I'm happy to spend the money where it's warranted.
                                        My biggest questions on all those options for tweeters are if any lean towards the 'warmer' end of the spectrum and/or require a less complicated crossover section?

                                        Normally, I'd be reluctant to buy drivers from an eBay seller in Lithuania, but with your recommendation I'd feel comfortable.
                                        Are there any plans to update the build with a different version of the Accuton? Scan makes good stuff, but the Accuton driver is what initially sparked my interest.

                                        Your work and the builds by SMJ (and others) is definitely an inspiration! I may go all baltic birch for the front panel since I have a bunch on hand. And I probably will ping SMJ for CNC/assembly tips.

                                        Comment

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 15330

                                          Here's a hint about tweeters...

                                          I'm looking at reviving the Wavecor Ardent with some updates to address the value proposition. At this point, sticking with parts that we know are available (for now), the tweeter candidate is the SB Acoustics TW29B-B. This is also a Be Dome tweeter, and has a well designed dome (Like the 6640) with essentially no breakup mode to worry about. Earlier this week they were on sale for $200 at Madisound, but now they're back up to $331, which is a bit of a surprise to me. I scored a pair, but for the intended application, (a 6-1/2" two way) they are a bit pricey. They are certainly less than $500, though, and they have double the Xmax of the 6640.


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                                          This has probably priced it out of the application I was looking at for them.


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                                          the AudioWorx
                                          Natalie P
                                          M8ta
                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                          Modula MT XE
                                          Modula Xtreme
                                          Isiris
                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                          SMJ
                                          Minerva Monitor
                                          Calliope
                                          Ardent D

                                          In Development...
                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                          Obi-Wan
                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                          Modula PWB
                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15330

                                            The midrange I'm looking at for this update is the Faital Pro 5FE120, originally designed for high output line arrays. Very clean, especially the top end and excellent dispersion (red plot is 45 degrees off axis!)



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                                            I've measured and verified it myself, note the slight dip between 300-400Hz is an issue with most of Faital's SPL plots, not with the driver! Looking at this for a CC project, too.
                                            the AudioWorx
                                            Natalie P
                                            M8ta
                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                            Modula MT XE
                                            Modula Xtreme
                                            Isiris
                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                            SMJ
                                            Minerva Monitor
                                            Calliope
                                            Ardent D

                                            In Development...
                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                            Obi-Wan
                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                            Modula PWB
                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15330

                                              OK, a bit of an update this AM- I have gotten a couple more inquiries about design docs, both cabinet and crossover- and I've reviewed the driver situation and think I have a decent solution, since the D3004/6640 appears to be back in production and in stock at Madisound, and the Satori TW29B-B with ferrite magnet is a good substitute, based on my measurements and the factory data.

                                              I have complete sets of PDF 2D drawings for the original cabinet design for the crossover built into the base- can send those out to anyone who wants them.

                                              I can also now provide an updated BOM for crossover and schematic based an updated (this AM!) design using the Scanspeak midrange and the original tweeter- this is similar to the design done for Renron, but in his case he went for a lower cost cloth dome tweeter, too.


                                              Click image for larger version

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                                              Click image for larger version

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                                              Top end is a bit smoother and lower in level with the grille cloths with felt diffraction control in place.

                                              Measurement data from Ardent cabinets. (which I do not have at this time, a colleague and friend having taken mine off my hand many years ago after hearing them...)

                                              This crossover is based on the BOM developed for the recent builds Steve has done- have detailed component recommendations and sourcing- of course, this is about DIY, and as the Y in DIY, YOU can change what you wish to meet your own needs...
                                              Last edited by JonMarsh; 21 April 2024, 19:45 Sunday.
                                              the AudioWorx
                                              Natalie P
                                              M8ta
                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                              Modula MT XE
                                              Modula Xtreme
                                              Isiris
                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                              SMJ
                                              Minerva Monitor
                                              Calliope
                                              Ardent D

                                              In Development...
                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                              Obi-Wan
                                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                              Modula PWB
                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                              Comment

                                              • letiennam
                                                Junior Member
                                                • Mar 2016
                                                • 18

                                                I happened to see SW223BD02 for sale by the distributor in China for only about $190. It's a great opportunity to make Wavecor Ardent
                                                I'm really interested in building a set of the Wavecor Ardent speakers long ago. As several people have mentioned, the C90-6-079 is a distant memory.I know that there is already an alternative solution using 12MU. What do you think about the Satori MW13TX-4 or the newer driver MR13TX-4 dued in 2024. I noticed that they have T/S parameters and impedance close to 12MU. Are they a good alternative for 12MU since the cone of 13Tx is stiffer than 12MU.
                                                I have used the MW16TX-8 for a 2-way speaker, they have a sound that suits my preferences. so I need more advice from you.
                                                Update, I contacted the distributor in China, they will only reduce the price until June 18, 2024 so I will get them before they go up again.​​

                                                Comment

                                                • ergo
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                  • 681

                                                  letiennam - depending where you are on a globe I do still have two Ardent front panels left over from my own build. Those are in Tallinn Estonia in case you are somewhere in Northerm Europe.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • letiennam
                                                    Junior Member
                                                    • Mar 2016
                                                    • 18

                                                    Originally posted by ergo
                                                    letiennam - depending where you are on a globe I do still have two Ardent front panels left over from my own build. Those are in Tallinn Estonia in case you are somewhere in Northerm Europe.
                                                    Thank you for your kindness, I'm from Vietnam. Nice to meet you. for MW13TX I plan to buy from audiohobby.eu, a distributor also from Estonia. They are so nice that they can ship almost everything for free. I have read your construction thread. Do you have 3d step files stored? Can you share them with me? I will edit the mid cabinet myself, it will greatly reduce the time it takes me to redraw from Mr. Jon's published 2D file

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 15330

                                                      The Satori part looks to be a close match, though differences in the impedance curve might require some adjustment in the crossover versus the 12MU version.

                                                      I have 3D model parts for the version as I built, but mostly in IGES and solid works format (SLDASM and SLDPRT) and DXF.
                                                      This includes a version with just the raw baffle parts- the bevels were actually cut with a table saw using a custom support fixture. This is described in the first Ardent project (pre-wavecor). This version of drawing does not show the hollow bases I built and located the crossover in. Below is a screen capture of the IGES version imported to Shapr3D. I have the version with just raw baffle parts also imported, so it is possible to create STEP files from this if it would be helpful.

                                                      Steve has carried on the updates for front baffles and versions he's built for his customers. In Steve's versions, the depth of the cabinet is increased, and the crossover is mounted in the back.

                                                      Click image for larger version  Name:	Screenshot 2024-06-12 at 11.55.28 AM.png Views:	0 Size:	1.49 MB ID:	953494

                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                      Natalie P
                                                      M8ta
                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                      Isiris
                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                      SMJ
                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                      Calliope
                                                      Ardent D

                                                      In Development...
                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                      Modula PWB
                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                      Comment

                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 15330

                                                        Dear Jon, Could you sell me one or a pair of DA25TX ? I was able to buy one from Germany but have never found anyone selling the other one. I happened to see SW223 for sale in China for only about $190, they are very close to me so the shipping cost is very low. It's a great opportunity to do this project
                                                        I just saw this today- comments don't generate an update in the posting list, so they can be easy to miss.

                                                        I should be able to do that, let's say $60 USD each, plus shipping. We'll have to figure out the best way to do the shipping- could cost more than the tweeters!
                                                        the AudioWorx
                                                        Natalie P
                                                        M8ta
                                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                                        Modula MT XE
                                                        Modula Xtreme
                                                        Isiris
                                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                                        SMJ
                                                        Minerva Monitor
                                                        Calliope
                                                        Ardent D

                                                        In Development...
                                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                        Obi-Wan
                                                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                        Modula PWB
                                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                        Comment


                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                          JonMarsh commented
                                                          Editing a comment
                                                          It's been a very, very busy May and June!

                                                          My first guess would be DHL- that's who I usually use for international.

                                                        • letiennam
                                                          letiennam commented
                                                          Editing a comment
                                                          I have sent an inbox to you, please check it
                                                      • letiennam
                                                        Junior Member
                                                        • Mar 2016
                                                        • 18

                                                        Thank you for answering my questions.
                                                        For MW13TX and MR13TX, I prefer MR13TX. I read the link below, the review by Joseph Crowe, they are fascinating.
                                                        I this blog post I test the SB Acoustics Satori MR13TX-4 5" Textreme Midrange. This is midrange only version (MR) of the Mid-woofer (MW). This is a new product for 2024 and Mark from SB was kind enough to send me a pre-production sample by request. I have been looking for a good all-around 5" midrange for a variety of

                                                        The problem is I just noticed they are out of stock everywhere. They will definitely be on sale again but it will have to wait.

                                                        As for another 4in midrange, I'm also looking into Kartesian Mid120_vHE. They seem to be very highly rated even as good as the 12MU. They produce high sound pressure with low distortion and strong and linear magnet system. They only come in an 8ohm version, but thank goodness they also have a high sensitivity of 91.5dB /2,8V /1m. They probably help smooth the overall impedance if used. They're quite risky because I've never heard how they sound
                                                        kartesian-mid120vhe8-12cm-heaxkone-midrange-8ohm


                                                        Another popular option is Purify PTT4.0M-04-NFC. They have sensitivity equivalent to the Accuton C90-6-079 (87.5dB), low distortion and are dedicated midrange. They seem to work well for this project as well.
                                                        Wonder also for me about 3 opinions because I'd rather use the newer ones but the 12MU saves me a lot of time.
                                                        I really appreciate your thoughts
                                                        Dear Jon, regarding DA25TX, I have a compatriot living in the US, I will sent you an inbox after talking to him about helping me receive DA25TX. It's okay because he still helps me receive things to buy for the Saint-Saëns planar- AKA SMJ-40 project from part-express.
                                                        I and my friends who do CNC work for me can use Solid works, so I highly appreciate solid works format file (SLDASM and SLDPRT).Thank you for always keeping archives to help latecomers like me, even though the project has been going on for 8 years, they are always updated.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                          • 15330

                                                          As you are finding out, these days actual availability may trump other factors in choosing a part!

                                                          I like the PuriFi PTT4.0M-04-NFC also, but Madisound doesn't even list, and Solen is out of stock. This is an example of why ALL of my PuriFi driver purchases to date have been direct with PuriFi, and normally at the 8 piece level to get a good price. But that requires having some extra cash on hand and/or friends who want to buy those for a project also. A good example was the PuriFi 8".

                                                          I would caution you about the Cartesian Mid120. It has some attractive characteristics, but some raise concerns in my mind for the intended application.

                                                          Examining the driver structure, it seems to have a very narrow rear window, which complicates the baffle design to achieve adequate rear venting without resonance.

                                                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Cartesian Mid.png Views:	0 Size:	158.0 KB ID:	953501


                                                          Second, examining the factor SPL plot, the polar plots look as one would expect for a driver this size, with good tracking to 3 kHz, but there are multiple resonances, starting with a mild one at 2500Hz, and much higher Q ones at 4-6 kHz and at 10kHz. Besides the potential impact on crossover design, these kinds of resonances introduce resonance amplification of distortion products, which impacts both THD and IM. And rather too close to the operating range.


                                                          Click image for larger version  Name:	Cartesian Mid SPL.png Views:	0 Size:	480.6 KB ID:	953502

                                                          The 12MU/4731 is much better behaved in that regard, and the impedance curve also gives clues about the diaphragm resonance of the Cartesian driver.

                                                          The review by Joseph Crowe was quite interesting, but a high level surround resonance is not to be dismissed- it still creates problems. And it brings me back to Evil Twin's thoughts, about how the OEM Peerless FSL-0512 may still be the best $250 midrange you can buy for 20 Euros.... in fact, I just ordered 8 this morning. Nominal sensitivity is 92 dB for 2.83VRMS.

                                                          Note, this is a QNF (Quasi Near Field) measurement which effectively simulates an infinite baffle measurement, by eliminating baffle step of the test enclosure. Note also this is only 1/24 octave smoothing, so we aren't hiding any details about the driver performance. (I cringe when I see test graphs with 1/6 octave smoothing...)


                                                          Click image for larger version  Name:	FSL-0512 QNF Disto.png Views:	0 Size:	256.4 KB ID:	953503


                                                          I'll put together some zip files with the SLDASM and SLDPRT data today.

                                                          And shipping the DA25TX to a friend of yours in the US would be far easier!



                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                          Natalie P
                                                          M8ta
                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                          Isiris
                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                          SMJ
                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                          Calliope
                                                          Ardent D

                                                          In Development...
                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                          Modula PWB
                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                          Comment

                                                          • letiennam
                                                            Junior Member
                                                            • Mar 2016
                                                            • 18

                                                            Because buying 12MU also needs to wait. I will continue to learn more about 12MU and PTT4.0M-04. I'm a bit leaning towards PTT4.0M-04 even though I listened to 12MU from a friend's house. they are very good and seem to disappear every time I listen to music. However I also have the PTT6.5X04 and like the way they play better.

                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	image.png
Views:	164
Size:	3.00 MB
ID:	953507
                                                            Last edited by theSven; 14 June 2024, 15:10 Friday. Reason: Add image inline

                                                            Comment

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