Time for some Ansonica - a new design for Jagman's theater

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  • gregnash
    Member
    • Dec 2009
    • 67

    Originally posted by cjd
    Parallel version is vexing. It works nicely, but it just doesn't want to work without about -1dB in the response dip...

    Greg: Not sure what tower you're speaking of?
    This one https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpo...87&postcount=5
    Last edited by theSven; 10 June 2023, 19:20 Saturday. Reason: Update htguide url

    Comment

    • cjd
      Ultra Senior Member
      • Dec 2004
      • 5568

      You really don't want to change the height on these much from the final design. 3-4 inches is probably OK (you should add to the BOTTOM) but the tweeter relative to the top needs to stay. And the angle back needs to stay the same relative to listening axis, which could throw things off further. Long and short: I'd keep these targeting a finished (with feet) height of 36".
      diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

      Comment

      • gregnash
        Member
        • Dec 2009
        • 67

        Originally posted by cjd
        You really don't want to change the height on these much from the final design. 3-4 inches is probably OK (you should add to the BOTTOM) but the tweeter relative to the top needs to stay. And the angle back needs to stay the same relative to listening axis, which could throw things off further. Long and short: I'd keep these targeting a finished (with feet) height of 36".
        Ok that is what I needed to know... so alteration to a "straight" tower is not advised unless I can duplicate the angle change for the tweeter. This is going to be a true thought process battle for me as I am a fan of straight baffles, not the bent or angled baffles. I was planning on extending the height to approximately 42" as that is approximate listening height for the tweeter in my living room.

        Comment

        • cjd
          Ultra Senior Member
          • Dec 2004
          • 5568

          The baffle is plenty straight.
          diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

          Comment

          • gregnash
            Member
            • Dec 2009
            • 67

            Originally posted by cjd
            The baffle is plenty straight.
            Hold on let me have another glass of Bookers and then I will check the image again!!! :T

            Comment

            • cjd
              Ultra Senior Member
              • Dec 2004
              • 5568

              It's just tipped back a bit, feet up, relaxing... as it... um... envies your ability to sip ...
              diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

              Comment

              • jagman
                Member
                • Aug 2008
                • 99

                I picked up a bunch of 3/4" MDF from HD, got a new fixed/plunge router and a 70 bit set in the mail and a new table saw is on the way . Hopefully I'll start making sawdust soon!

                Comment

                • cjd
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • Dec 2004
                  • 5568

                  Sigh. Sorry for the delay, I kept fiddling, then had other things going on...

                  Parallel crossover. As before the RLC across the whole network can be omitted entirely (R4, L6, C6) without much issue.

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                  diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

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                  • ---k---
                    Ultra Senior Member
                    • Nov 2005
                    • 5202

                    I know you've been buried under a monument recently , but....

                    How are these coming? Got photos?
                    - Ryan

                    CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                    CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                    CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                    Comment

                    • mackintire
                      Senior Member
                      • Jan 2009
                      • 186

                      Why arn't these in the completed designs thread?

                      Comment

                      • ---k---
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Nov 2005
                        • 5202

                        He hasn't asked.... that's all. Once Chris is satisfied with the design and promises no further changes, I'm sure it will get moved.
                        - Ryan

                        CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                        CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                        CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                        Comment

                        • cjd
                          Ultra Senior Member
                          • Dec 2004
                          • 5568

                          I've been listening to mine quite happily.

                          I usually like to have at least one other person build and give their nod before I really consider things "done" though...
                          diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                          Comment

                          • ---k---
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Nov 2005
                            • 5202

                            Are you done yet? Can I add this to the HTguide Completed Speakers thread yet?

                            I'm going to start posting this to all your threads! I saw you post in another thread, so I know you're still alive!


                            We need some updates. Completed photos and such. Has Jagman built his yet???
                            - Ryan

                            CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                            CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                            CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                            Comment

                            • jagman
                              Member
                              • Aug 2008
                              • 99

                              Some things came up that derailed my project... but those things are now falling into place. I have the MDF and a table saw so with any luck I'll start making sawdust this weekend!

                              Comment

                              • ---k---
                                Ultra Senior Member
                                • Nov 2005
                                • 5202

                                Cool... These are fun speakers.
                                - Ryan

                                CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                Comment

                                • SpeakerGuy
                                  Member
                                  • Mar 2010
                                  • 71

                                  Originally posted by cjd
                                  Yeah, these really would be superb in a 3-way. They're darned nice in a 2.5 way, really good for some grins when you put on something with low bass and it starts loading the room... And then you crank it up a little more and run out of excursion. Ahh, limitations.
                                  A high pass protection filter on the woofers would likely let you play them as loud as you like (in a reasonable size room) without much subjective loss of bass.

                                  Comment

                                  • cjd
                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                    • Dec 2004
                                    • 5568

                                    Originally posted by SpeakerGuy
                                    A high pass protection filter on the woofers would likely let you play them as loud as you like (in a reasonable size room) without much subjective loss of bass.
                                    No so much.

                                    I know when I'm missing stuff <30Hz.
                                    diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                    Comment

                                    • SpeakerGuy
                                      Member
                                      • Mar 2010
                                      • 71

                                      Originally posted by cjd
                                      I know when I'm missing stuff <30Hz.
                                      < 30 Hz is not typically relevant to music.

                                      I'm sure you don't need this chart CJD, but for other's benefit:

                                      Click image for larger version

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                                      Comment

                                      • jagman
                                        Member
                                        • Aug 2008
                                        • 99

                                        A lot of today's music has synthesized low frequency output. Of course movies are a whole different animal. The same goes for most of is here .

                                        Comment

                                        • TedG
                                          Junior Member
                                          • May 2009
                                          • 4

                                          I'm mostly a lurker and don't post very much, but this chart seems to be useful only for people who listen to classical and vocal music. It isn't relevant for pop, rock, metal or, as mentioned, almost any movie soundtrack. Not only that, even on pieces without any "recorded" information below 30 hz, I still feel as though I'm missing something when the system isn't capable of producing those frequencies - call it ambiance or headroom or whatever. In my opinion (and it's just that, an opinion) bigger is better, and overkill is just getting started.

                                          Anyway, to each their own. Isn't that what this hobby is all about?

                                          Comment

                                          • cjd
                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                            • Dec 2004
                                            • 5568

                                            Originally posted by TedG
                                            I'm mostly a lurker and don't post very much, but this chart seems to be useful only for people who listen to classical and vocal music. It isn't relevant for pop, rock, metal or, as mentioned, almost any movie soundtrack. Not only that, even on pieces without any "recorded" information below 30 hz, I still feel as though I'm missing something when the system isn't capable of producing those frequencies - call it ambiance or headroom or whatever. In my opinion (and it's just that, an opinion) bigger is better, and overkill is just getting started.

                                            Anyway, to each their own. Isn't that what this hobby is all about?
                                            Most pop, rock, and metal is not nearly as tough on a system as classical, both as far as frequency range goes and as far as actually rendering the signal to an appropriate sound. So, for these folks, <30Hz really isn't something you miss. Heck, I'd say <~45Hz in most cases.

                                            The chart is also missing the organ, which has a pedal tone of 16Hz (8Hz in Sydney, not sure any other 64' pipes.)

                                            Also, most sound has a harmonic at one octave below that, while largely inaudible, makes a difference. Most people actually hear the octave up bass harmonic on low frequency and this is why often you don't miss subsonic sound reproduction (or <30Hz or whatnot). You don't hear it, so much as experience sound below 30Hz (though I think my ear starts to wander around 24Hz, and my room has a resonance at 22Hz making it really tough to know what's going on below that.)

                                            Soundtracks are a different beast entirely, as are some of the more recent electronic mixes that do push subsonics.

                                            Jagman: I must admit to being excessively swamped at work and am NOT remembering to bring the work system home to work up a cutsheet. I apologize.

                                            If anyone wants to take a stab at it that would be much appreciated - or, point me to a freebie tool that works easily. I usually use Fireworks, but haven't re-licensed at home recently (~$400)...
                                            diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                            Comment

                                            • ---k---
                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                              • Nov 2005
                                              • 5202

                                              I always use Cutlist to make cut sheets. Very easy to use. and FREE.
                                              - Ryan

                                              CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                              CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                              CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                              Comment

                                              • cjd
                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                • Dec 2004
                                                • 5568

                                                Cutlist doesn't seem to do angles? Am I missing something? It's really obtuse to even get going with.

                                                Also finding it really rough to put the numbers together just because I don't know how someone else will want to try to assemble this. Will give it a shot anyhow I guess. Without CAD I can't give exact cut dimensions on any of the pieces, and for the bracing, etc. all I can do is list single side measurements. So you can't just go rip it up and try to put it together - you have to actually know how it goes together and double check all the numbers as you go.
                                                diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                Comment

                                                • cjd
                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                  • Dec 2004
                                                  • 5568

                                                  PDF cutlist. 4x8 sheet + 4x2 sheet (18mm or 3/4")

                                                  This does NOT include a port support brace. This IS assuming a round port, not a slot port.

                                                  This also assumes that your material is safe on both sides - if not, THIS WILL NOT WORK as you'll have one pair of sides good, one "bad"...

                                                  For the sides, you need to mark off 34" high at 6" back from the edge and run the angle to there. Each should then be 12.75" length along the 57" side (34.25" height gives 1/8" for flush-trim top/bottom)

                                                  Once you have those cut, you can take the tip of one of the 2 pieces of scrap to generate an angle guide for ripping the angled edges of the braces/top/bottom and baffle/back.

                                                  Baffle/back are ~34.5" along the face, 35" gives you just enough for the angle (and a little extra to flush-trim if you can. You may wish to trim these shorter on the saw and glue up really carefully.

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                                                  C
                                                  Last edited by theSven; 14 March 2023, 20:44 Tuesday. Reason: Update image location
                                                  diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                  Comment

                                                  • jagman
                                                    Member
                                                    • Aug 2008
                                                    • 99

                                                    Awesome! The rest of the angles should be easy to figure out .

                                                    Comment

                                                    • cjd
                                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                                      • Dec 2004
                                                      • 5568

                                                      Originally posted by jagman
                                                      Awesome! The rest of the angles should be easy to figure out .
                                                      If you're using ply let me know, I think it needs to be updated slightly to get the same plywood sheet face on each side of the box.

                                                      Also, I highly recommend double checking all my math as you go.
                                                      diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                      Comment

                                                      • ---k---
                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                        • Nov 2005
                                                        • 5202

                                                        Originally posted by cjd
                                                        Cutlist doesn't seem to do angles? Am I missing something? It's really obtuse to even get going with.
                                                        Ah yes. That is a short coming of this simple program...
                                                        - Ryan

                                                        CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                        CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                        CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                        Comment

                                                        • cjd
                                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                                          • Dec 2004
                                                          • 5568

                                                          TM variant, by request.

                                                          This is the easy one, so to speak.
                                                          This is based off the top Anarchy, so it still assumes the same speaker height, baffle angle, width, driver placement, and chamfer. If you build a bookshelf and put it on a stand, no problem, really. If you build this as a tower, it means the baffle should angle back - however, you can do this only from just below the woofer on up.

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                                                          diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

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                                                          • Rbrockman
                                                            Member
                                                            • Aug 2007
                                                            • 51

                                                            Beautiful speaker. I'm sure it sounds great!

                                                            I noticed there were a few comments in this thread about a 3-way variant. I'm very intrigued by this as I'm ready to build a "smallish" 3-way. Would this give the mini-Statement a run for it's money?

                                                            What was the design consideration for the slot vs tube port?

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Greybeard191
                                                              Member
                                                              • Jan 2005
                                                              • 44

                                                              Originally posted by cjd
                                                              I should add. I really want to try a 3-way with the Anarchy now. But I want a bit more power handling, may have to consider 4 per side... (unless we get a 12ohm option... heh. 3 per side seems like it would be the sweet spot)
                                                              I'm really interested in trying a set of these, but possibly using 4 Anarchy's per side, assuming that would give me a 8ohm speaker and more power handling.

                                                              Aside from the obvious required increase in volume and changes to port dimensions, there's the fact that the tweeter will move upwards from the floor. I've never done crossover design, always followed what others have done and said works... are the posted series or parallel designs even useable for a quad-anarachy version?

                                                              GB

                                                              Comment

                                                              • cjd
                                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                                • Dec 2004
                                                                • 5568

                                                                I'm still intrigued by the potential of a 3-way, or a system with more drivers. It's not something I am pursuing personally at the moment, but if anyone is interested enough to get me a box and drivers, or to sweeten the deal enough to get me to build my own boxes, holler.

                                                                The networks posted here will NOT work with any driver combination other than the original design, and they really do need the slanted baffle as well for optimal response at the listener.

                                                                Slot vs tube port was purely due to how I constructed my own boxes and the general aesthetics.
                                                                diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Rbrockman
                                                                  Member
                                                                  • Aug 2007
                                                                  • 51

                                                                  Perhaps if those of us interested in a 3-way version of this can agree to some basic design constraints, we can contribute to a "group" project to make it worth Chris's time and expertise.

                                                                  I would definitely contribute as there has been a lack of high quality 3-way designs lately and I'm ready to build something.

                                                                  Basic design constraints strawman
                                                                  *) 3-way
                                                                  *) slanted form factor cabinets ~40" or so tall (smallish towers)
                                                                  *) high quality mid such as the Scan Speak Discovery 10F/4424G00
                                                                  *) Anarchy bass drivers

                                                                  Who's in?

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Greybeard191
                                                                    Member
                                                                    • Jan 2005
                                                                    • 44

                                                                    I'm more interested in a 2 or 2.5 way, using 4 Anarchy's to up powerhandling and impedance to 8 ohms.

                                                                    Hopefully the box/crossover changes, as compared to the existing in this thread, are simple... even theoretical extensions from the existing design.

                                                                    GB

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • cjd
                                                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                                                      • Dec 2004
                                                                      • 5568

                                                                      Originally posted by Greybeard191
                                                                      I'm more interested in a 2 or 2.5 way, using 4 Anarchy's to up powerhandling and impedance to 8 ohms.

                                                                      Hopefully the box/crossover changes, as compared to the existing in this thread, are simple... even theoretical extensions from the existing design.

                                                                      GB
                                                                      The only real way to do a 2.5 way with 4 drivers is to move at least one of the 2's up above the tweeter, and then c2c would be hosed as-is, not to mention z-axis problems and tweeter angle relative to the rest of the system.

                                                                      I'd be much more inclined to go 4 drivers in a 3(.5)-way, because that opens up spacing enough to be viable. It would probably be possible to do a design that lets you go either way (totally different crossover, but could be built and measured all at once) but... yeah.

                                                                      There are options in a ton of directions, and you can't get them all at once.

                                                                      I'm looking into what kind of materials doing throw-away enclosures would run cost-wise. Possibly harder on tools so how that balances out...
                                                                      diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • cjd
                                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                                        • Dec 2004
                                                                        • 5568

                                                                        Just wanted to post a quick note here - this IS a done design as far as I am concerned. I verified in-room response with full crossover this afternoon and it's nice and flat (not surprising really, but I'm always vaguely nervous...)

                                                                        C
                                                                        diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • ---k---
                                                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                                                          • Nov 2005
                                                                          • 5202

                                                                          If you copy the relevant info into the first post and post a picture, I'll add you to the Guide thread. And then Thomas can move this to Mission Accomplished. It should be a more popular design than it is.
                                                                          - Ryan

                                                                          CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                                          CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                                          CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Greybeard191
                                                                            Member
                                                                            • Jan 2005
                                                                            • 44

                                                                            please adda BOM as well.

                                                                            thanks.

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Greybeard191
                                                                              Member
                                                                              • Jan 2005
                                                                              • 44

                                                                              bump... are these considered complete? I think so, based on post 169.

                                                                              I'm considering building these (series xover), so I'd like to see a BOM if possible.

                                                                              thanks.

                                                                              GB

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • cjd
                                                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                • Dec 2004
                                                                                • 5568

                                                                                Yes, considered complete.

                                                                                I'm just sorta busy and not finding time right now to go through the paperwork...
                                                                                diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Greybeard191
                                                                                  Member
                                                                                  • Jan 2005
                                                                                  • 44

                                                                                  okie dokie :-)

                                                                                  GB

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Greybeard191
                                                                                    Member
                                                                                    • Jan 2005
                                                                                    • 44

                                                                                    bumping, still hoping for a BOM for the series Xover, so as to replicate what cjd did.

                                                                                    GB

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • jagman
                                                                                      Member
                                                                                      • Aug 2008
                                                                                      • 99

                                                                                      I am thinking about making a longer version that hangs down from the ceiling. Almost like a mini inverted tower. If you picture it as a tower sitting on the floor, this new version would have the tweeter firing forward, the mid firing up and out at the 45' angle, and then the top would be flat. The internal volume would be half of the volume of the Ansonica so this enlarged semi-omni surround could be ported and tuned to the same frequency as the Ansonica.

                                                                                      If the ceiling is beefed up to support the weight, then it would be hung upside down. I have 9' ceilings but the floor plan is wide open. By having the enclosure longer, it would allow the tweeter to be approximately 7' from the floor instead of right next to the ceiling. Of course by being able to port the surround, it would then support the same spectrum as the Ansonicas plus give more bass from the sides and behind. Given the volume of the room is around 15,000 cubic feet, that would probably be nice. I would probably want to do a slot port since that would allow more flexability in placement in the future.

                                                                                      The attached post mentioned increasing the size of the enclosure on the tweeter side would have the least ill effect, and since these are just surrounds, I'm wondering if this would work?

                                                                                      Originally posted by cjd
                                                                                      The Marsala

                                                                                      TM in the same box I build my surrounds in. The one thing that should not change is the spacing between the tweeter and mid-woofer and the angle (45 degrees). The box can be made a little wider, and can be made taller on the tweeter side, with less ill effect - thus, one can tune the box a little.



                                                                                      Response pictured here is at the 45 degree (on-axis with mid-woofer, 45 degrees off-axis from tweeter. 30 degrees is very similar. This is a gated measurement, ignore anything below ~500Hz. See the nearfield stuff I posted in the Anarchy thread to see where this box leaves F3 (about 60Hz), etc.



                                                                                      If you plan to listen closer to 45 degrees (or greater) off-axis from the tweeter, REVERSE POLARITY ON THE TWEETER. If you expect to be mostly above-axis, keep the polarity the same. At 45 degrees it's VERY close, with reversed having slightly better response. SPL is a bit off, probably ~5dB too high.

                                                                                      Impedance is pretty benign.



                                                                                      The proposed crossover - this has NOT been given any ear time yet, so this is not final. Inductors are all Jantzen 18ga for impedance since PE has those listed in a nice chart making it easy, anything close will do. If you want to use a slightly more traditional notch, add a 60ohm resistor in parallel with the LC (.3mH/4uF) ...

                                                                                      Last edited by theSven; 14 March 2023, 20:48 Tuesday. Reason: Update image location

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • cjd
                                                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                        • Dec 2004
                                                                                        • 5568

                                                                                        That probably would work fine as long as the tweeter remains partially off-axis still (and it sounds like it would)

                                                                                        They'll get a little bit leaner on the bass as well.
                                                                                        diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • jagman
                                                                                          Member
                                                                                          • Aug 2008
                                                                                          • 99

                                                                                          Is that because the woofer would be further from the wall/ceiling? Would it be better to use a slot port near the base of the enclosure? Would it be better to tune it at a higher frequency?

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          • cjd
                                                                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                            • Dec 2004
                                                                                            • 5568

                                                                                            No, isn't much you can do about it. As boundaries shift so does the null (and any boost) you get. You could, I suppose, build inverted TM's (not the surrounds) too. Should depend on how close to walls, etc. vs how out in the open it looks like things will be.

                                                                                            Thing about the surrounds is they really do best when you don't try to optimize so much. I think. Like when we just put mine out on the floor randomly and listened while moving around, trying different spots. Tweeter up-firing.
                                                                                            diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

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