It's time for a Bordeaux!

[Mikerodrig27]

Very nice. I have heard good things about JDS. I like the AK chips. I have a Topping D90 (standard) with the AK4499. The AK chip DACs are pretty nice sounding.

I am going to likely build a passive or buffer preamp soon. When your amp and DAC seem to have enough gain, it is a nice way to go. I have a few preamps and like to run them but I also like the sound of no preamp. The only issue is digitally attenuating the signal versus a pot. Hence a passive.

DACs nowadays seem to be able to drive amps just fine with enough gain. I have a nice stepped attenuator and drew up some PCBs to make a buffer that should solve any impedance mismatches. I can also add a switch to run it as a passive or buffer.

It is nice to hear about your setup. Thank you for sharing.

I will report on my diffuser experiment someday. With your listening position being close to the wall in your room, I could see it being handy to break up those particular reflections.

[Jim Holtz]

Well, I hope life has been good. Then it is worth it.

Okay, I am at 33" from the front wall to the mid-tunnel. That still fits your recipe then. The soundstage is still great. My listening impression is that moving the speakers out puts the center image behind the speakers a bit.

I mentioned trying diffusion behind the speakers a while back. This spring when the weather thaws, I have the wood ready to cut for quadratic diffusers. Should be a fun experiment that I have always wanted to try. I plan a 30" by probably 60" behind each with a well depth of around 6"-8"

What are you using for your amplifier, preamp and DAC? Also, what is your sitting distance from the speakers? Right now I am about 8' away.

Hi Mike,

In my main system with the Bordeaux, I have an Emotiva XPA-5 amp, Channel Islands passive preamp with built in theater bypass, so it does double duty for 2 channel and home theater, and a JDS Labs EL DAC which is based on an AK4490 dac chipset. It's not a super inexpensive dac nor is it super expensive. I've owned it for a few years and am still extremely satisfied with its clarity and accuracy.

My listening room is 15' x 17' with a seated distance of about 15' and about 12' between the speakers with 18" clearance on the sides and behind the speakers. It works great!

HTH

Jim

[Mikerodrig27]

Well, I hope life has been good. Then it is worth it.

Okay, I am at 33" from the front wall to the mid-tunnel. That still fits your recipe then. The soundstage is still great. My listening impression is that moving the speakers out puts the center image behind the speakers a bit.

I mentioned trying diffusion behind the speakers a while back. This spring when the weather thaws, I have the wood ready to cut for quadratic diffusers. Should be a fun experiment that I have always wanted to try. I plan a 30" by probably 60" behind each with a well depth of around 6"-8"

What are you using for your amplifier, preamp and DAC? Also, what is your sitting distance from the speakers? Right now I am about 8' away.

[Jim Holtz]

Hey Jim. Long time no talk! You and Curt must be happy with your speaker selection lately as things seem to be quiet around SDW

I wanted to pick your brain. I want to pull my Bordeaux speakers off of the wall a bit. I remember reading that the crossover, stuffing in the tunnel etc are tuned for a certain distance off of the wall. I like the way they image being 24" off of the wall to the back of the bass cabinet. I believe the greater distance helps to separate the direct sound from the reflected sound which seems to give a deeper image and a better center image. I can accommodate up to 4' off of the front wall. I also get much tighter bass which is an added benifit.

What specifically would you change to accommodate this? Also, you mentioned stuffing the tunnels to taste. What specifically changes when you stuff it more and less? Less dense stuffing, more of a rear-firing wave?

Also, I wanted to note that I have had a lot of sources, amps, and speakers come and go. The Bordeaux still hold their ground and stick in my room like glue. As of now, I am powering them with all DIY equipment with a newly added Pass Labs XA25 clone. It is basically a XA25 but with higher bias so 70w of class A and some neat circuit tricks. Most dynamic and revealing amp that I have had to date. The amp is the reason for me to want to start to playing with positioning more.

For anyone interested, I found a neat few posts from Curt:

https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/1431301-designing-an-open-back-midrange-speaker

If you read through the thread, he made a few very interesting posts.

Hi Mike,

Good to hear from you. Curt and I have been somewhat quiet. That's been due to life getting in the way more than anything.

To answer your question, best I can, any of our open back speakers will sound best when positioned 18 to 36" from the back of the mid-tunnel to the wall behind it. That's where they sound best with the best sound stage to my ears.

I'm glad you're enjoying the Bordeaux. They are my reference in my listening room.

Jim

[Mikerodrig27]

Hey Jim. Long time no talk! You and Curt must be happy with your speaker selection lately as things seem to be quiet around SDW

I wanted to pick your brain. I want to pull my Bordeaux speakers off of the wall a bit. I remember reading that the crossover, stuffing in the tunnel etc are tuned for a certain distance off of the wall. I like the way they image being 24" off of the wall to the back of the bass cabinet. I believe the greater distance helps to separate the direct sound from the reflected sound which seems to give a deeper image and a better center image. I can accommodate up to 4' off of the front wall. I also get much tighter bass which is an added benifit.

What specifically would you change to accommodate this? Also, you mentioned stuffing the tunnels to taste. What specifically changes when you stuff it more and less? Less dense stuffing, more of a rear-firing wave?

Also, I wanted to note that I have had a lot of sources, amps, and speakers come and go. The Bordeaux still hold their ground and stick in my room like glue. As of now, I am powering them with all DIY equipment with a newly added Pass Labs XA25 clone. It is basically a XA25 but with higher bias so 70w of class A and some neat circuit tricks. Most dynamic and revealing amp that I have had to date. The amp is the reason for me to want to start to playing with positioning more.

For anyone interested, I found a neat few posts from Curt:

https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/1431301-designing-an-open-back-midrange-speaker

If you read through the thread, he made a few very interesting posts.

[Mikerodrig27]

Please, keep it on your mind. Would be nice to bring this, or a similar, design back to life.

[JonMarsh]

It's a shame what has happened to this design because of a supplier issue, but this has become far too common over the last few years.

I will say, though, that the configuration has a lot of appeal, and one possibility that's been on my mind with parts I have on hand is dual PTT8.0X04 woofers on the low end, the Accuton C168-6-090 on the midrange, and the Beyma TPL150 on the top end. Not a low budget design, of course. Might interest Steve for his own use!

[peniku8]

I forgot to post an in-room measurement after RoomEQ, but better late than never!
I'm surprised by the bass extension I get, but it's a tiny room after all. I didn't run an impedance sweep but tuning seems to have come out way lower than expected for some reason (below 20Hz?). But that's perfect. Since I normally don't listen very loud (70dB(A) at most pretty much), the speakers can handle frequencies that low without running out of excursion. The slope is 0.5dB/oct on the target, which roughly matched the unequalized response in slope too.
The speakers were first EQ'd seperately to look close to the target (with the EQ points I have available in the Hypex amps) and then I corrected some miniscule details in EQapo for the stereo measurement, which, depending on the song, you can't even hear.

[Mikerodrig27]

Looks like you're resorting to the whole near-field thing. A really nice way to listen to speakers. I have mine set up pretty wide almost as an equilateral triangle similar to yours at about 7' from my ears. They sound great that way. I have had a lot of speakers come and go and the Bordeaux still hold their ground.

My latest endeaver has been building different preamps and amps to swap in and out. Always something to learn!

I am glad you are able to make the best of your small room. Hopefully you will get them to their more permanent room soon.

[peniku8]

Hey all, it's been some time! I finally moved into the new house and finished construction in my room, so I could set up my Bordeaux, which have been sleeping in the basement for over half a year now.
I posted a much more in-depth write-up on AVS, which you can find here (same build thread as before).
tl;dr: room tiny, had to seal off the back and use them like that for now.
No acoustic treatment=poo, put in a few panels and the gate of heaven opens for you.

In the end, my speakers are quite different from the original now, since they're closed-back, use the newer tweeter revision and are on an active crossover with dsp. But the sound is lovely and I'm more than pleased! Been on headphones for the past few months and I'm really glad I have speakers again.

Initial set up without treatment:


Threw in some 4" pyramid foam panels temporarily to listen to the impact of the treatment:


Sound went from "I'd rather leave them off" to "I want to keep listening for forever". No surprise, since the room is terrible, but I can't quite believe some people buy expensive speakers, not spending 100$ on treatment, which has a bigger impact than arguably all other equipment in the chain combined.
I talked more about impressions and the room situation on AVS, if you want to read that ;-)

Thank you Jim and Curt for the work you've put into the design, you got me into speaker design and I learned so much since then, it's incredible!
I know some designers are unhappy about seeing people modify (and sometimes defile) their creations, so I hope I did a good enough job to do you justice haha.

[Jim Holtz]

[QUOTE=4heid;640402]

Due to continuing issues with consistency with the 2560 AMT tweeter, the Bordeaux are considered no longer available and the build plans are not available.


This is killing me! I took some time off for the holidays but had already gotten the drivers and was about to begin to obtain the final plan info I need for the cabinet and crossover.
Is there a concern of both tweeters one may obtain matching one another or matching the original freq response you and Curt obtained for them to produce the correct crossover?

How do I determine if what I have is feasible related to my question above?

And Jim, with all that said, if you suggest the current tweeters are still an issue, what would be your next best choice without going too deep into crossover thoughts?

Mike answered the question pretty well. There are two versions of the AMT2560's that we know of and the specs changed enough that a revised crossover was required to correct the different response. I'm guessing you didn't buy the tweeters from Meniscus or you'd know they measured them before shipping to you along with the matching crossover schmatic and parts to build it. If you call Meniscus, I suspect you can work a deal for measurements to be part of the purchase for the rest of the design. However, I can't speak for Meniscus.

As far as I know, there aren't any tweeters you can use without measuring and designing a new crossover. That's not my area of expertise, Curt's the man. But, that requires a cabinet and drivers to measure plus many hours of listening and adjusting the crossover. The simple way is to talk to Meniscus and see if you can come to an agreement.

The reason the kit was dropped was because Meniscuis was having a problen getting two tweeters to match. The ones, (original) Curt and I used were a matching pair but different from the current version. The current shipping version is the one that should match the revised crossover if they are both consistant to specs which is what Meniscus has been measuring to insure they match and will sound as designed.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Jim

[Mikerodrig27]

Here is the thread for the updated crossover if you haven't already seen it. Clarity Cap CSA on the tweeter portion of the crossover, PX on the rest

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?44303-The-Bordeaux-Crossover-Help-Needed-DIY-Gurus-please-chime-in/page2&highlight=bordeaux

I also have a thread with some detailed build pictures and notes. Best of luck!

[Mikerodrig27]

A dayton DATS would be able to measure. Otherwise a calibrated mic with REW possibly.

Typically there were two versions of the tweeters that were made. There is a separate crossover for each. Curt worked with a forum member here to recreate the crossover for the new tweeter.

Where did you get the tweeter? You can check the serial number on the back. The ones that I got had the same serial with A and B after it signifying a matched pair. If returnable, I would get in touch with meniscus. They may be able to help. Best of luck! They are terrific speakers so if you can figure this out it will be rewarding.

[4heid]

oh no!

[QUOTE=Jim Holtz;639747]Due to continuing issues with consistency with the 2560 AMT tweeter, the Bordeaux are considered no longer available and the build plans are not available.


This is killing me! I took some time off for the holidays but had already gotten the drivers and was about to begin to obtain the final plan info I need for the cabinet and crossover.
Is there a concern of both tweeters one may obtain matching one another or matching the original freq response you and Curt obtained for them to produce the correct crossover?

How do I determine if what I have is feasible related to my question above?

And Jim, with all that said, if you suggest the current tweeters are still an issue, what would be your next best choice without going too deep into crossover thoughts?

[Lcoblentz3]

I’m very sorry to hear this latest news. I put together a pair 2 years ago. They continue to be my reference speakers. I haven’t found anything that makes me want to replace them. Definitely worth the effort.

[peniku8]

I have 26 AST2560. The ones I measured so far measured quite close to each other, but they were from the same batch of production. 24 of the tweeters I have are from a newer batch, so maybe I should measure through all of them to get a good idea of what Jim is talking about, because it seems like there is more than just the production change, which resulted in there being two different versions of the tweeters out there.
Either way, I measure every speaker for consistency anyways and the distortion performance of the tweeters I have has been consistently stellar. They offer incredible detail I have not heard anywhere else before. But I agree, if you can't measure your speakers and you don't know if your tweeters match your crossover you're better off going for something different.

[Mikerodrig27]

Do you think doing something different would be interesting? Maybe say a open-baffle tweeter on top so you don't have to worry about the cabinet resonances? I did a little hack type of mod to mine as the top panel was vibrating quite a bit.

[Jim Holtz]

I think I need to clarify my consistency comment regarding the AST2560's and the reason the design was pulled.

Yes, the AST2560's are still available for purchase. However, getting two drivers that measure the same and match either version of the existing crossovers is a crap shoot. If you have measurement capability and want to go through the process of buying multiple drivers to find ones that match, go for it. They're an excellent driver and I really enjoy mine. If we had known of the issues with current production, we'd have never used them. When you buy a kit, you expect it to match the crossover everytime and the AST2560's do not.

I might also add, there isn't any "ownership" of DIY designs other than not offering the crossover for free distribution. DIY is simply DIY and none of us fall into the catagory of "Wilson, Kef, Focal or any other big names. In other words, if you don't like the sound of the completed DIY speaker, the builder gets to change it to their tastes, not us. We like what we have. Fortunitly, when drivers match which is most of the time, you can buy it, build it and it'll sound as designed.

Anyway, Aurum Cantus manufacturing problems destroyed the Bordeaux design and made it unrealistic to offer.

The good news is, some day Curt and I may revisit the top 1/2 of the Bordeaux design with a different tweeter, but don't get your hopes up. I build for myself and I'm extremely happy with the original Bordeaux design so a redesign isn't even on the horizon. Curt and I do this for fun, time permitting.

I hope that makes my comments more clear.

Jim

[Absinthe]

I have them. Email me at mikerodrig27@gmail.com

Edit: Sorry Jim, I didn't read your post even though I quoted it. Lol. I was rushing and multitasking. Too bad about the Bordeaux kits. I was hoping to order an extra set of diaphragms to future proof my speakers. What on the tweeters did they change?

They are terrific speakers. I would look into the Travelers if those are still available. I believe there are some TL plans available somewhere. I do have the build plans if you are curious. It is a fun design. If you wanted to build the Bordeaux, it sounds like you would have to find a pair of 2560's used and measure them to see which crossover to use.

Thanks for the offer Mike, but for now, Ill decline. The build seems compromised by the tweeter inconsistencies....and I'm at about 5 years building out whats in the pipeline already.

The tweeters seem to still be available from parts-express at least: https://www.parts-express.com/Aurum-...weeter-276-440

Interested to hear the answer to your question though and would add if Jim and Curt are leaving the door open to re-design the speakers should Aurum-Cantus solve their issues?

[Absinthe]

Due to continuing issues with consistency with the 2560 AMT tweeter, the Bordeaux are considered no longer available and the build plans are not available.

This is sad for Curt and I but it is what it is.

Sorry!

Jim

Totally understand, Jim. When you put your name to something, there is a certain level of ownership for the finished product and if the consistency of the components are questionable, well...

Agreed, this is sad as the write ups for the design were so favorible, I was considering adding these to my build list for a soon to be dedicated music room.....but that build is probably 5-10 years away so lots of changes will no doubt occur

[Mikerodrig27]

OK, maybe I'm blind or just looking in the wrong places but I don't see any CAD files on HT Guide or on http://speakerdesignworks.com/ Granted were at +3 years from the design...and its been a strange three years but all the same, does anyone have the location where the build plans can be found? Also, meniscus audio doesn't have kits for the Bordeaux either

Due to continuing issues with consistency with the 2560 AMT tweeter, the Bordeaux are considered no longer available and the build plans are not available.

This is sad for Curt and I but it is what it is.

Sorry!

Jim

I have them. Email me at mikerodrig27@gmail.com

Edit: Sorry Jim, I didn't read your post even though I quoted it. Lol. I was rushing and multitasking. Too bad about the Bordeaux kits. I was hoping to order an extra set of diaphragms to future proof my speakers. What on the tweeters did they change?

They are terrific speakers. I would look into the Travelers if those are still available. I believe there are some TL plans available somewhere. I do have the build plans if you are curious. It is a fun design. If you wanted to build the Bordeaux, it sounds like you would have to find a pair of 2560's used and measure them to see which crossover to use.

[Jim Holtz]

OK, maybe I'm blind or just looking in the wrong places but I don't see any CAD files on HT Guide or on http://speakerdesignworks.com/ Granted were at +3 years from the design...and its been a strange three years but all the same, does anyone have the location where the build plans can be found? Also, meniscus audio doesn't have kits for the Bordeaux either

Due to continuing issues with consistency with the 2560 AMT tweeter, the Bordeaux are considered no longer available and the build plans are not available.

This is sad for Curt and I but it is what it is.

Sorry!

Jim

[Absinthe]

Absolutely! It helps others that are interested in building the Bordeaux and more importantly you'll be able to ask the community questions about cabinet issues and general build questions if you need to. There are many experienced builders here that enjoy helping others.

Just a thought, I don't know what your skill level is but Meniscus does offer an option to assemble the crossovers which can be very beneficial.

HTH

Jim

OK, maybe I'm blind or just looking in the wrong places but I don't see any CAD files on HT Guide or on http://speakerdesignworks.com/ Granted were at +3 years from the design...and its been a strange three years but all the same, does anyone have the location where the build plans can be found? Also, meniscus audio doesn't have kits for the Bordeaux either

[Evil Twin]

I'm back with good news! The tweeter issue was resolved and two of my Bordeaux are finally painted.
I have since bought 28 tweeters from AC (26 AST2560) not a single one I've tested so far had bad performance like the ones I had before (I got a full refund for these).

Here is a link to my build thread on AVS for more detailed pictures on the finished speaker(s):

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/jim-holtzs-bordeaux-build-x6.3165111/post-60792458

I'm now working on the crossover design, which I write about from this post onwards:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/jim-holtzs-bordeaux-build-x6.3165111/post-60818287

I noticed something that reminded me of the crossover troubles @Efalegalo had.
I measured the tweeter and the mid separately, then EQ'd their responses to be flat in their active bands and have some smooth overlap throughout the crossover region(s). I noticed that there was a large difference in phase between mid and tweet at the crossover frequency, which resulted in the following measurement, with a BW4 crossover at 2,66khz:



I took new measurements with a timing reference to align the two drivers (was about 0,1ms delay on the tweeter, which is about 90° phase correction at the crossover point) and this is the result:



The measurements seen above had a 5ms gate applied.

I guess this was similarly corrected in the new revision of the passive crossovers, but the issue here is that this will cause higher off-axis uniformity because that can only correct the magnitude and not time/phase align.

Lastly I took some quick distortion measurements to get an idea of the overall performance, which looks great to me:



Distortion never exceeds 0,5% THD at 90dbSPL, except for the sub bass region, which I can't accurately measure in my room anyways (not gating and 1/48th octave smoothing applied to the above measurement).

As mentioned on AVS, I am aware that the open back design will change the percieved response of the speaker and I will tweak to taste (be it with foam in the back or with EQ, I'm sure I'll be able to find a good balance).

Next up is taking the speaker outside to get the woofer-mid crossover dialed in.
I will be moving in 3 months, so I'm not in a rush to finish the speakers since I won't set them up until I've moved anyways. New room will be super small so they'll basically be touching the wall, but it is what it is. Maybe I'll throw in a wedge behind the tweeter to spread out the rear wave a bit more for better spacial effects in this limited space, we'll see.

Your assiduous efforts and determination will pay off greatly in your final results. Congratulations are definitely in order!

[Mikerodrig27]

I love the amount of effort that you are putting into these! I hope it is all paying off for you.

[peniku8]

I made a second, more conventional polar. I only measured down to 100Hz, hence the wierdness in the region below, so ignore that.

[peniku8]

Thanks Mike for the recommendations, I like Von Freeman's stuff!
I'm generally a Metal guy, but I enjoy a lot of stuff, from Jazz to EDM.
I really enjoy the hammered Ducleimer on Earthside's track time stamped below. The entire production is fantastic and the songs are great too.

Also made a polar map for my Bordeaux today. Please note the (unusual) X-axis from 100Hz-30k. Sub 1khz data not very accurate/reliable due to 5ms gating. No smoothing applied.


I'll knock down the 2khz bump a bit, since that's visible in all responses to 45°, but other than that it looks really neat to me. This was with about 8" of foam in both rear chambers, so basically closed off. You don't hear much behind the speaker above a few hundred herz.

[Mikerodrig27]

Pretty cool! That was a neat video. I looked on Deezer for it and couldn't find it. Electronic type stuff can be fun to listen to

Here are some fun ones to try. Not electronic but they display the sense of space reverb thing:

Von Freeman- why try to change me now (sense if space in the intro)

Von Freeman- ill never be free

Lily Kershaw Smile

Nora Jones- it was you

Ondara- Torch Song.

I really enjoy Santanas guitar on these speakers too.

[peniku8]

I agree with you Mike, the Bordeaux have a level of detail I have not heard anywhere else yet.
I love this track for that, because the plucking and the reverb sounds really exciting on speakers with great detail, but rather boring if you're missing that.
The FLAC version is a bit better in this regard, I can recommend it over youtube for sure.

[Mikerodrig27]

Cool, you have a little more juice, but good to know! Yes I am very lucky to have a SIT3. It is possible to build something similar - See SissySIT R.3 thread on DIY Audio.

Have you compared your Bordeaux with anything else, what do you think to the Accuton mid - apparently Accutons are great at soundstage depth?

Thank you for turning me onto the SisySIT R.3. If the parts are accessible and reasonable, I will likely build it. I will read up on that. I am building a BA2018 preamp. I am keeping it simple with a ALPS volume knob and a input selector for 4 inputs. Gaz's power supply. The Accuton mid is really nice. If you haven't seen the Travelers, those are great for someone who doesn't need the large cabinet and the double woofers. Jim seems to put them on the same level of the Bordeaux in a lot of ways. Soundstage and depth are what the accutons speakers are great at from my limited experience. The open backed tweeters are something special as well. I hope that my comparison above is enough to give you some insight.

[Mikerodrig27]

I have compared it to a number of different speakers. I try to be neutral when comparing speakers. My motivation tends to be to find something new or better, or something exciting that I haven't heard before. Although I am heavily invested in time/money into the Bordeaux, I tend to not let that influence my opinion of other gear.

Speakers I have/had my house:

LaScalas- Different, I like the Bordeaux overall. If you listen to the Bordeaux then the LaScalas, the Bordeaux has gobs of detail that the LaScalas don't have. The LaScalas do the whole impactful horn thing which if you get their placement just right, and your seating position right, it can be something special. They are very powerful speakers but you will miss the lower frequencies that the Bordeaux gives you. It is kind of like the really jacked guy at the gym that always skips leg day. A lot of people either are fascinated with the LaScalas or really dislike them. I found out of my assortment of amps and preamps, I liked them best with a Marantz 2218 receiver... I didn't see that coming as I used them with a 90lb 250w/ch amp, the Firstwatt F6 etc. I also noticed I had to be a lot more specific with the music I play with them. They are unique to say the least.

B&W N803- Different, Bordeaux has more bass and more detail but are less forward. I prefer the sound of the Bordeaux although the N803 is a terrific speaker. The Bordeaux has a warmer sound while still being more detailed. The N803 is kind of in your face. They do have a nice soundstage for such a small speaker.

Martin Logan reQuest- Now these speakers on the used market are a real bargain. In smaller rooms, I like the Martin Logans better for simple songs. Them being dipole speakers really helps with not overloading the room. The Bordeaux has a fuller richer sound. The Bordeaux also throw as large of a soundstage but can become muddy sounding in smaller rooms as they do throw out a lot of sound everywhere (part of their design). They need a large space to really flex their muscles.

The Martin Logans have so much detail. I haven't had a chance to compare the two in my living room yet (doing some remodel work) but I suspect that I will like the Bordeaux better there. I suspect that the detail levels will be a lot closer there and the Bordeaux can handle dynamic music better, I like the way they are voiced better etc. I noticed that moving the Bordeaux into my bedroom temporarily, I lost a lot of the detail, imaging and accurate perception of soundstage that I had in the living room. It is very crippling for them. Sorry that this speaker comparison was long-winded and unorganized but it is the most interesting and is still in progress.

B&W 802 D3- I got to listen to these in a very expensive listening room. It was all acoustically treated, had Mcintosh monoblocks, good sources etc. I listened to them for about 20 minutes. The B&W has a "faster" sounding bass. More impactful. That could have been the room, however. The Bordeaux present the smaller details in a way that floats in the room. That was something that I didn't hear when listening to the B&W's. I also was using the 25w firstwatt F6 amp vs their 600ish watt monoblocks. Also, the room the B&W's were in was much larger. The Bordeaux had a warmer sound.

Now, I didn't get to A/B the Bordeaux with these speakers nor were they in my home. However, when I listened to the B&W's, I didn't hear the details like I was used to from the Bordeaux. It could have been a bad setup, bad listening position etc. However, I was impressed that this sub $2k kit is able to compete in a way that made me feel that the B&W's were missing the ball on something. my living room has 8' ceilings vs their 14'ish ceilings, side walls are closer, although I do have some absorbers. I think for someone who wants a more impactfull speaker that hits hard, that would have been the setup. For female voices etc, the Bordeaux with the little firstwatt amp...

Von Schweikert VR-4 - I have these. I need to do some cosmetic work and sell them off. The VR-4's don't really compete at all with the bordeaux. I like the Bordeaux better in every way. The VR-4's are nice speakers they just lack bass, and the details aren't as good as the bordeaux. Soundstage isn't as good etc.

I plan to build another set of speakers that will lend themselves well to a smaller room as I just enclosed my 12'x12' lanai into a sunroom. Unfortunantly, I don't think Jim and Curts open backed speakers will cooperate so I will have to build something with a close back. I have been looking at the Elsinore design. There are so many out there, it will be hard to pick one.

JBL L36 - They are fun but lack the type of detail that the Bordeaux have. Impactfull little things. Kind of harsh sounding. I do see why a lot of people like them though.

Acoustat Spectra 11- The ESL sounds great, the woofer sounds like it is coming from a different planet. Terrible integration. A good budget unit. If the price used were too high, I would go for something like a Magnapan LRS or something like that.

[stretchneck]

I am currently running mine with a first watt f6. I have never clipped it. These little amps are great and pretty tough considering their wattage specs.

The f6 I believe is known for being able to handle bass frequencies well. I am jealous of you as the SIT 3 looks like a sweet circuit.

Cool, you have a little more juice, but good to know! Yes I am very lucky to have a SIT3. It is possible to build something similar - See SissySIT R.3 thread on DIY Audio.

Have you compared your Bordeaux with anything else, what do you think to the Accuton mid - apparently Accutons are great at soundstage depth?

[stretchneck]

I am currently running mine with a first watt f6. I have never clipped it. These little amps are great and pretty tough considering their wattage specs.

The f6 I believe is known for being able to handle bass frequencies well. I am jealous of you as the SIT 3 looks like a sweet circuit.

Cool, you have a little more juice, but good to know!

[Mikerodrig27]

Would you recommend the Bordeaux running off a Pass Labs SIT3 - 18w in 8ohms, 30w into 4ohms?

Also, any polar plots - I can't find Bordeaux on the speakerdesignworks website.

I am currently running mine with a first watt f6. I have never clipped it. These little amps are great and pretty tough considering their wattage specs.

The f6 I believe is known for being able to handle bass frequencies well. I am jealous of you as the SIT 3 looks like a sweet circuit.

[stretchneck]

Would you recommend the Bordeaux running off a Pass Labs SIT3 - 18w in 8ohms, 30w into 4ohms?

Also, any polar plots - I can't find Bordeaux on the speakerdesignworks website.

[Mikerodrig27]

Yeah, stuffing the rears sounds like a good idea. I agree, getting a more direct sound may help with your small room. I thought of building a set of dipole speakers at some point because I have a 12'x12' room that I'd like a setup in. Sitting nearfield will help.

That little steinway looks like a cool design.

I have tried a couple of friends DACS. It isn't so much the digital side of the dac but the analog. Then I guess there is R2R I heard a nice difference in sound quality. They all sounded different. Have you had the opportunity to try some different DACs?

I thought I remember the original port tuning is supposed to be 24hz. I never calculated it or asked Jim. I just remember seeing it somewhere. Jim also said he likes bass and tends to tune speakers a little bass heavy.

The RS225 is a great driver. They can handle a lot but once they get pushed too far, they will certainly let you know. I have a few extras just in case... Also, they are cheap so why not.

[peniku8]

From my experience, the one ailment of these speakers is, they don't take well to small or narrow rooms or really any surface that is too close to them. Early reflections that have bounced off of surfaces end up mixing with the direct signal. Any sound that hits your ears within about 20 milliseconds, your brain will perceive it as direct. These speakers throw off a whole lot of sound. They sound great in a room that can accommodate their wide hips...

I just temporarily switched from my main listening area which is a medium-sized living room. The wall behind the speakers in my normal room is about 16'. I switched to a bedroom that is roughly 11' x 20'. I can tell you that the speakers do not sound nearly as clear. Imaging has gone out the window, dialogue isn't as clear... I ended up switching to a set of Martin logan reQuests until I can switch back. I suspect that the ML's do better due to less side wave. I guess what I am trying to say with all of this is don't be discouraged if your new small listening room doesn't lend itself well to your speakers.

The topping D10B looks like a nice little DAC. I have a Schitt Modi 3+. I plan to upgrade that in the near future.

Which original crossover were you comparing your active crossover points to? Curt's or the new one designed for the new tweeter?

If the sound gets muddy in my small room I guess I'll just stuff the rear of the tweeter with foam and use them as semi closed-backs for now. I will be sitting almost nearfield with the speakers placed directly against the wall. Not great listening conditions, but it is what it is for now. I might also experiment placing a wedge behind the openings, to direct the reflections towards the side walls instead of the rear wall. Steinway have a wall-mounted open-back design similar to this. Seems like a good idea to experiment with something like this anyways.

Why do you want to upgrade your DAC? The Modi 3+ has a SINAD of 110db, which seems nice enough to me? The Topping is 8db better in that regard, but both are way past 16 bit already. Doubt there will be a perceptible difference.
I also bought a Topping L30 and a pair of HiFiMan headphones since I won't be able to listen to music using speakers late at night anymore. The Bordeaux will be connected via SPDIF and the L30 via rca for now.

The tweeter crossover is a little higher than Curt's original crossover of rev1. That was around 2,3khz iirc, I am not sure where it sits for the new tweeter revision.
I tinkered with the delays a bit more and ended up with a very satisfying result now (5ms gated):


Here are the individual components' responses (close-up measurements):


What was the original tuning supposed to be? I think mine came in a bit lower, but unsure why. Tuning seems to be at 22Hz, judging by the nf response of the woofer.
I gave it fairly loud sweeps starting at 2Hz and couldn't hear anything concerning yet. No chuffing, no obvious "bottoming-out" noises. These Daytons seem to be handling that gracefully. I only have a protective LR4 HPF at 15Hz in place at the moment, which I planned on raising to the tuning frequency, after I achieved a flat response, but it seems it works just like that?
Will have to give it some testing.

[Mikerodrig27]

From my experience, the one ailment of these speakers is, they don't take well to small or narrow rooms or really any surface that is too close to them. Early reflections that have bounced off of surfaces end up mixing with the direct signal. Any sound that hits your ears within about 20 milliseconds, your brain will perceive it as direct. These speakers throw off a whole lot of sound. They sound great in a room that can accommodate their wide hips...

I just temporarily switched from my main listening area which is a medium-sized living room. The wall behind the speakers in my normal room is about 16'. I switched to a bedroom that is roughly 11' x 20'. I can tell you that the speakers do not sound nearly as clear. Imaging has gone out the window, dialogue isn't as clear... I ended up switching to a set of Martin logan reQuests until I can switch back. I suspect that the ML's do better due to less side wave. I guess what I am trying to say with all of this is don't be discouraged if your new small listening room doesn't lend itself well to your speakers.

The topping D10B looks like a nice little DAC. I have a Schitt Modi 3+. I plan to upgrade that in the near future.

Which original crossover were you comparing your active crossover points to? Curt's or the new one designed for the new tweeter?

[JoeAngelicchio]

Beautiful speakers!!!!

[peniku8]

I got some time to take measurements outside and more or less finalized the dsp preset. I reworked the preset a bit and integrated my EQ setting from the outside measurements (sub 500Hz stuff).
Gonna copy a bit from my AVS post:

Raw driver responses below. Woofers outside (half space, speaker laying flat on the ground), 200ms gate. Mid and tweeter inside, 6ms gate.
I also measured the mid outside, which I based my sub 500hz EQ for it on (not shown).


Mid and tweeter were gain-matched, but the tweeter has a 3,9 Ohm resistor in parallel to reduce hiss (audible with the Hypex if you're closer than 1,3m/4ft).
The woofers got a -1,5db pad, while the mid and tweeter gains were untouched (after my EQ).

Mid and tweeter responses after EQ (with 6ms gate inside):


Crossovers are 420Hz and 2666Hz now. I raised the mid/tweeter crossover compared to the og crossover, since the new tweeter revision starts to distort as early as 2,2khz when you push it to 100db. If you don't go that loud they're pretty clean down to ~1,6khz, but since I'm running BW4 crossovers, I could go a bit higher, since the mid-breakup was less of a concern in my case.
420 because that's were woofer and mid distortions looked best.
Drivers were phase aligned. Delays were 50us on the mid and 190us on the tweeter (phase measured post-EQ and then time-aligned at the crossover frequency).

I will be moving in a few weeks, which I will use as an opportunity to upgrade the sound system without much extra work.
I will sell off my Klipsch surround system (with the amp) and use the Bordeaux in stereo for a while (fed by my Topping D10B DAC). My new room is tiny and I will have to see how much gear I can fit in there :roll:

[peniku8]

Very nice job on the speakers. Your dad did a great job on the finish.

I actually ended up having them done at a local car painter's. $$$ but the work was just impossible to do at home (at least like that). The plywood didn't make it easy (next non PA speakers will be MDF...).

Absolutely fantastic build, Peniku! Talk about a ruler-flat response!! Here was the final response from my build for left/right speaker (3.5- gate - can't remember) - notice the ever so slightly slanted top-end (i.e., above 5Kz). I was new to the world of rear radiating speakers, and while attempting to voice it "flat", I felt there was slightly pronounced "HF energy" in the room. Maybe I needed to play around with more rear stuffing - but I still decided to tame it just 1db-ish.




I did want to quickly add that I did verify the off-axis uniformity of the updated passive crossover out to (at-least) +/- 60degress - and it does in fact perform really well.

See post #45 for the reverse null measurements - and that was without spec parts on hand - and it was still -28db on the design axis (and perfectly symmetrical). It goes to show that nice phase alignment was achieved between the tweeter and the mid.

Now, with time alignment - no way the passive can compete with the active :-); but with that said though, my limited knowledge tells me that time alignment is relevant on to very specific pin-point in space. A little bit of head movement and perfect time alignment is lost - is that correct? Not implying this will impact measured response much - but perfect time alignment may be lost with a little bit of head movement, no?

Forgive the elementary questions above :-). I know nothing about the active-crossover world.

Cheers and thanks again for sharing such a beautiful build.

Thanks for the nice words, your response looks great as well!

Check out this PDF by sbacoustics on time alignment, which explains it way better than I ever could.

https://sbacoustics.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/Time-Alignment.pdf

Basically you align the drivers to match phase where you sit (typically 0° from the tweeter axis), which also improves off-axis uniformity (so it's a net plus everywhere and not just where you sit). If you correct this via EQ instead, you could end up with locations where a frequency is actually louder off-axis than on-axis, which is a problem in echoic rooms. I can see if I can get some off-axis measurements of my Bordeaux today which illustrate this point, since I expect to see a spike somewhere off-axis.
You can correct on-axis problems with pre-crossover EQ (unless it's a perfect cancellation) at the cost of efficiency (since the drivers will not sum well to +6db), but the time alignment helps improving off-axis on top of that, which is important unless you have a really thick rug in front of your speakers and something absorbant on your ceiling (the latter is often the problem). Channel/post-crossover EQ'ing also messes with the phase per driver and can make the phase relation between drivers better or worse. In the case of the passive crossover in the Bordeaux it makes it better, since your vertical off-axis plots look good.

I have built some studio monitors, which use time alignment to control off-axis responses and the design axis. With it you can basically 'steer' where you'd like to sit and optimize for that position.

Since tweeters in general need to be delayed more than the mid, most speakers will have better response below the tweeter than above the tweeter (listening position), since you're sitting further away from the tweeter in relation to the mid in that case. If you read through audiosciencereview.com reviews you'll often see Amir recommending sitting at or below the tweeter axis, since the response above it gets a mess quickly.

[Efalegalo]

The measurements seen above had a 5ms gate applied.

I guess this was similarly corrected in the new revision of the passive crossovers, but the issue here is that this will cause higher off-axis uniformity because that can only correct the magnitude and not time/phase align.

Absolutely fantastic build, Peniku! Talk about a ruler-flat response!! Here was the final response from my build for left/right speaker (3.5- gate - can't remember) - notice the ever so slightly slanted top-end (i.e., above 5Kz). I was new to the world of rear radiating speakers, and while attempting to voice it "flat", I felt there was slightly pronounced "HF energy" in the room. Maybe I needed to play around with more rear stuffing - but I still decided to tame it just 1db-ish.




I did want to quickly add that I did verify the off-axis uniformity of the updated passive crossover out to (at-least) +/- 60degress - and it does in fact perform really well.

See post #45 for the reverse null measurements - and that was without spec parts on hand - and it was still -28db on the design axis (and perfectly symmetrical). It goes to show that nice phase alignment was achieved between the tweeter and the mid.

Now, with time alignment - no way the passive can compete with the active :-); but with that said though, my limited knowledge tells me that time alignment is relevant on to very specific pin-point in space. A little bit of head movement and perfect time alignment is lost - is that correct? Not implying this will impact measured response much - but perfect time alignment may be lost with a little bit of head movement, no?

Forgive the elementary questions above :-). I know nothing about the active-crossover world.

Cheers and thanks again for sharing such a beautiful build.

[Steve Manning]

Very nice job on the speakers. Your dad did a great job on the finish.

[peniku8]

I'm back with good news! The tweeter issue was resolved and two of my Bordeaux are finally painted.
I have since bought 28 tweeters from AC (26 AST2560) not a single one I've tested so far had bad performance like the ones I had before (I got a full refund for these).

Here is a link to my build thread on AVS for more detailed pictures on the finished speaker(s):

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/jim-holtzs-bordeaux-build-x6.3165111/post-60792458

I'm now working on the crossover design, which I write about from this post onwards:

https://www.avsforum.com/threads/jim-holtzs-bordeaux-build-x6.3165111/post-60818287

I noticed something that reminded me of the crossover troubles @Efalegalo had.
I measured the tweeter and the mid separately, then EQ'd their responses to be flat in their active bands and have some smooth overlap throughout the crossover region(s). I noticed that there was a large difference in phase between mid and tweet at the crossover frequency, which resulted in the following measurement, with a BW4 crossover at 2,66khz:



I took new measurements with a timing reference to align the two drivers (was about 0,1ms delay on the tweeter, which is about 90° phase correction at the crossover point) and this is the result:



The measurements seen above had a 5ms gate applied.

I guess this was similarly corrected in the new revision of the passive crossovers, but the issue here is that this will cause higher off-axis uniformity because that can only correct the magnitude and not time/phase align.

Lastly I took some quick distortion measurements to get an idea of the overall performance, which looks great to me:



Distortion never exceeds 0,5% THD at 90dbSPL, except for the sub bass region, which I can't accurately measure in my room anyways (not gating and 1/48th octave smoothing applied to the above measurement).

As mentioned on AVS, I am aware that the open back design will change the percieved response of the speaker and I will tweak to taste (be it with foam in the back or with EQ, I'm sure I'll be able to find a good balance).

Next up is taking the speaker outside to get the woofer-mid crossover dialed in.
I will be moving in 3 months, so I'm not in a rush to finish the speakers since I won't set them up until I've moved anyways. New room will be super small so they'll basically be touching the wall, but it is what it is. Maybe I'll throw in a wedge behind the tweeter to spread out the rear wave a bit more for better spacial effects in this limited space, we'll see.

[peniku8]

double post