It's time for a Bordeaux!

[Absinthe]

Due to continuing issues with consistency with the 2560 AMT tweeter, the Bordeaux are considered no longer available and the build plans are not available.

This is sad for Curt and I but it is what it is.

Sorry!

Jim

Totally understand, Jim. When you put your name to something, there is a certain level of ownership for the finished product and if the consistency of the components are questionable, well...

Agreed, this is sad as the write ups for the design were so favorible, I was considering adding these to my build list for a soon to be dedicated music room.....but that build is probably 5-10 years away so lots of changes will no doubt occur

[Absinthe]

I have them. Email me at mikerodrig27@gmail.com

Edit: Sorry Jim, I didn't read your post even though I quoted it. Lol. I was rushing and multitasking. Too bad about the Bordeaux kits. I was hoping to order an extra set of diaphragms to future proof my speakers. What on the tweeters did they change?

They are terrific speakers. I would look into the Travelers if those are still available. I believe there are some TL plans available somewhere. I do have the build plans if you are curious. It is a fun design. If you wanted to build the Bordeaux, it sounds like you would have to find a pair of 2560's used and measure them to see which crossover to use.

Thanks for the offer Mike, but for now, Ill decline. The build seems compromised by the tweeter inconsistencies....and I'm at about 5 years building out whats in the pipeline already.

The tweeters seem to still be available from parts-express at least: https://www.parts-express.com/Aurum-...weeter-276-440

Interested to hear the answer to your question though and would add if Jim and Curt are leaving the door open to re-design the speakers should Aurum-Cantus solve their issues?

[Jim Holtz]

I think I need to clarify my consistency comment regarding the AST2560's and the reason the design was pulled.

Yes, the AST2560's are still available for purchase. However, getting two drivers that measure the same and match either version of the existing crossovers is a crap shoot. If you have measurement capability and want to go through the process of buying multiple drivers to find ones that match, go for it. They're an excellent driver and I really enjoy mine. If we had known of the issues with current production, we'd have never used them. When you buy a kit, you expect it to match the crossover everytime and the AST2560's do not.

I might also add, there isn't any "ownership" of DIY designs other than not offering the crossover for free distribution. DIY is simply DIY and none of us fall into the catagory of "Wilson, Kef, Focal or any other big names. In other words, if you don't like the sound of the completed DIY speaker, the builder gets to change it to their tastes, not us. We like what we have. Fortunitly, when drivers match which is most of the time, you can buy it, build it and it'll sound as designed.

Anyway, Aurum Cantus manufacturing problems destroyed the Bordeaux design and made it unrealistic to offer.

The good news is, some day Curt and I may revisit the top 1/2 of the Bordeaux design with a different tweeter, but don't get your hopes up. I build for myself and I'm extremely happy with the original Bordeaux design so a redesign isn't even on the horizon. Curt and I do this for fun, time permitting.

I hope that makes my comments more clear.

Jim

[Mikerodrig27]

Do you think doing something different would be interesting? Maybe say a open-baffle tweeter on top so you don't have to worry about the cabinet resonances? I did a little hack type of mod to mine as the top panel was vibrating quite a bit.

[peniku8]

I have 26 AST2560. The ones I measured so far measured quite close to each other, but they were from the same batch of production. 24 of the tweeters I have are from a newer batch, so maybe I should measure through all of them to get a good idea of what Jim is talking about, because it seems like there is more than just the production change, which resulted in there being two different versions of the tweeters out there.
Either way, I measure every speaker for consistency anyways and the distortion performance of the tweeters I have has been consistently stellar. They offer incredible detail I have not heard anywhere else before. But I agree, if you can't measure your speakers and you don't know if your tweeters match your crossover you're better off going for something different.

[Lcoblentz3]

I’m very sorry to hear this latest news. I put together a pair 2 years ago. They continue to be my reference speakers. I haven’t found anything that makes me want to replace them. Definitely worth the effort.

[4heid]

oh no!

[QUOTE=Jim Holtz;639747]Due to continuing issues with consistency with the 2560 AMT tweeter, the Bordeaux are considered no longer available and the build plans are not available.


This is killing me! I took some time off for the holidays but had already gotten the drivers and was about to begin to obtain the final plan info I need for the cabinet and crossover.
Is there a concern of both tweeters one may obtain matching one another or matching the original freq response you and Curt obtained for them to produce the correct crossover?

How do I determine if what I have is feasible related to my question above?

And Jim, with all that said, if you suggest the current tweeters are still an issue, what would be your next best choice without going too deep into crossover thoughts?

[Mikerodrig27]

A dayton DATS would be able to measure. Otherwise a calibrated mic with REW possibly.

Typically there were two versions of the tweeters that were made. There is a separate crossover for each. Curt worked with a forum member here to recreate the crossover for the new tweeter.

Where did you get the tweeter? You can check the serial number on the back. The ones that I got had the same serial with A and B after it signifying a matched pair. If returnable, I would get in touch with meniscus. They may be able to help. Best of luck! They are terrific speakers so if you can figure this out it will be rewarding.

[Mikerodrig27]

Here is the thread for the updated crossover if you haven't already seen it. Clarity Cap CSA on the tweeter portion of the crossover, PX on the rest

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?44303-The-Bordeaux-Crossover-Help-Needed-DIY-Gurus-please-chime-in/page2&highlight=bordeaux

I also have a thread with some detailed build pictures and notes. Best of luck!

[Jim Holtz]

[QUOTE=4heid;640402]

Due to continuing issues with consistency with the 2560 AMT tweeter, the Bordeaux are considered no longer available and the build plans are not available.


This is killing me! I took some time off for the holidays but had already gotten the drivers and was about to begin to obtain the final plan info I need for the cabinet and crossover.
Is there a concern of both tweeters one may obtain matching one another or matching the original freq response you and Curt obtained for them to produce the correct crossover?

How do I determine if what I have is feasible related to my question above?

And Jim, with all that said, if you suggest the current tweeters are still an issue, what would be your next best choice without going too deep into crossover thoughts?

Mike answered the question pretty well. There are two versions of the AMT2560's that we know of and the specs changed enough that a revised crossover was required to correct the different response. I'm guessing you didn't buy the tweeters from Meniscus or you'd know they measured them before shipping to you along with the matching crossover schmatic and parts to build it. If you call Meniscus, I suspect you can work a deal for measurements to be part of the purchase for the rest of the design. However, I can't speak for Meniscus.

As far as I know, there aren't any tweeters you can use without measuring and designing a new crossover. That's not my area of expertise, Curt's the man. But, that requires a cabinet and drivers to measure plus many hours of listening and adjusting the crossover. The simple way is to talk to Meniscus and see if you can come to an agreement.

The reason the kit was dropped was because Meniscuis was having a problen getting two tweeters to match. The ones, (original) Curt and I used were a matching pair but different from the current version. The current shipping version is the one that should match the revised crossover if they are both consistant to specs which is what Meniscus has been measuring to insure they match and will sound as designed.

Sorry I can't be of more help.

Jim

[peniku8]

Hey all, it's been some time! I finally moved into the new house and finished construction in my room, so I could set up my Bordeaux, which have been sleeping in the basement for over half a year now.
I posted a much more in-depth write-up on AVS, which you can find here (same build thread as before).
tl;dr: room tiny, had to seal off the back and use them like that for now.
No acoustic treatment=poo, put in a few panels and the gate of heaven opens for you.

In the end, my speakers are quite different from the original now, since they're closed-back, use the newer tweeter revision and are on an active crossover with dsp. But the sound is lovely and I'm more than pleased! Been on headphones for the past few months and I'm really glad I have speakers again.

Initial set up without treatment:


Threw in some 4" pyramid foam panels temporarily to listen to the impact of the treatment:


Sound went from "I'd rather leave them off" to "I want to keep listening for forever". No surprise, since the room is terrible, but I can't quite believe some people buy expensive speakers, not spending 100$ on treatment, which has a bigger impact than arguably all other equipment in the chain combined.
I talked more about impressions and the room situation on AVS, if you want to read that ;-)

Thank you Jim and Curt for the work you've put into the design, you got me into speaker design and I learned so much since then, it's incredible!
I know some designers are unhappy about seeing people modify (and sometimes defile) their creations, so I hope I did a good enough job to do you justice haha.

[Mikerodrig27]

Looks like you're resorting to the whole near-field thing. A really nice way to listen to speakers. I have mine set up pretty wide almost as an equilateral triangle similar to yours at about 7' from my ears. They sound great that way. I have had a lot of speakers come and go and the Bordeaux still hold their ground.

My latest endeaver has been building different preamps and amps to swap in and out. Always something to learn!

I am glad you are able to make the best of your small room. Hopefully you will get them to their more permanent room soon.

[peniku8]

I forgot to post an in-room measurement after RoomEQ, but better late than never!
I'm surprised by the bass extension I get, but it's a tiny room after all. I didn't run an impedance sweep but tuning seems to have come out way lower than expected for some reason (below 20Hz?). But that's perfect. Since I normally don't listen very loud (70dB(A) at most pretty much), the speakers can handle frequencies that low without running out of excursion. The slope is 0.5dB/oct on the target, which roughly matched the unequalized response in slope too.
The speakers were first EQ'd seperately to look close to the target (with the EQ points I have available in the Hypex amps) and then I corrected some miniscule details in EQapo for the stereo measurement, which, depending on the song, you can't even hear.

[JonMarsh]

It's a shame what has happened to this design because of a supplier issue, but this has become far too common over the last few years.

I will say, though, that the configuration has a lot of appeal, and one possibility that's been on my mind with parts I have on hand is dual PTT8.0X04 woofers on the low end, the Accuton C168-6-090 on the midrange, and the Beyma TPL150 on the top end. Not a low budget design, of course. Might interest Steve for his own use!

[Mikerodrig27]

Please, keep it on your mind. Would be nice to bring this, or a similar, design back to life.

[Mikerodrig27]

Hey Jim. Long time no talk! You and Curt must be happy with your speaker selection lately as things seem to be quiet around SDW

I wanted to pick your brain. I want to pull my Bordeaux speakers off of the wall a bit. I remember reading that the crossover, stuffing in the tunnel etc are tuned for a certain distance off of the wall. I like the way they image being 24" off of the wall to the back of the bass cabinet. I believe the greater distance helps to separate the direct sound from the reflected sound which seems to give a deeper image and a better center image. I can accommodate up to 4' off of the front wall. I also get much tighter bass which is an added benifit.

What specifically would you change to accommodate this? Also, you mentioned stuffing the tunnels to taste. What specifically changes when you stuff it more and less? Less dense stuffing, more of a rear-firing wave?

Also, I wanted to note that I have had a lot of sources, amps, and speakers come and go. The Bordeaux still hold their ground and stick in my room like glue. As of now, I am powering them with all DIY equipment with a newly added Pass Labs XA25 clone. It is basically a XA25 but with higher bias so 70w of class A and some neat circuit tricks. Most dynamic and revealing amp that I have had to date. The amp is the reason for me to want to start to playing with positioning more.

For anyone interested, I found a neat few posts from Curt:

https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/1431301-designing-an-open-back-midrange-speaker

If you read through the thread, he made a few very interesting posts.

[Jim Holtz]

Hey Jim. Long time no talk! You and Curt must be happy with your speaker selection lately as things seem to be quiet around SDW

I wanted to pick your brain. I want to pull my Bordeaux speakers off of the wall a bit. I remember reading that the crossover, stuffing in the tunnel etc are tuned for a certain distance off of the wall. I like the way they image being 24" off of the wall to the back of the bass cabinet. I believe the greater distance helps to separate the direct sound from the reflected sound which seems to give a deeper image and a better center image. I can accommodate up to 4' off of the front wall. I also get much tighter bass which is an added benifit.

What specifically would you change to accommodate this? Also, you mentioned stuffing the tunnels to taste. What specifically changes when you stuff it more and less? Less dense stuffing, more of a rear-firing wave?

Also, I wanted to note that I have had a lot of sources, amps, and speakers come and go. The Bordeaux still hold their ground and stick in my room like glue. As of now, I am powering them with all DIY equipment with a newly added Pass Labs XA25 clone. It is basically a XA25 but with higher bias so 70w of class A and some neat circuit tricks. Most dynamic and revealing amp that I have had to date. The amp is the reason for me to want to start to playing with positioning more.

For anyone interested, I found a neat few posts from Curt:

https://techtalk.parts-express.com/forum/tech-talk-forum/1431301-designing-an-open-back-midrange-speaker

If you read through the thread, he made a few very interesting posts.

Hi Mike,

Good to hear from you. Curt and I have been somewhat quiet. That's been due to life getting in the way more than anything.

To answer your question, best I can, any of our open back speakers will sound best when positioned 18 to 36" from the back of the mid-tunnel to the wall behind it. That's where they sound best with the best sound stage to my ears.

I'm glad you're enjoying the Bordeaux. They are my reference in my listening room.

Jim

[Mikerodrig27]

Well, I hope life has been good. Then it is worth it.

Okay, I am at 33" from the front wall to the mid-tunnel. That still fits your recipe then. The soundstage is still great. My listening impression is that moving the speakers out puts the center image behind the speakers a bit.

I mentioned trying diffusion behind the speakers a while back. This spring when the weather thaws, I have the wood ready to cut for quadratic diffusers. Should be a fun experiment that I have always wanted to try. I plan a 30" by probably 60" behind each with a well depth of around 6"-8"

What are you using for your amplifier, preamp and DAC? Also, what is your sitting distance from the speakers? Right now I am about 8' away.

[Jim Holtz]

Well, I hope life has been good. Then it is worth it.

Okay, I am at 33" from the front wall to the mid-tunnel. That still fits your recipe then. The soundstage is still great. My listening impression is that moving the speakers out puts the center image behind the speakers a bit.

I mentioned trying diffusion behind the speakers a while back. This spring when the weather thaws, I have the wood ready to cut for quadratic diffusers. Should be a fun experiment that I have always wanted to try. I plan a 30" by probably 60" behind each with a well depth of around 6"-8"

What are you using for your amplifier, preamp and DAC? Also, what is your sitting distance from the speakers? Right now I am about 8' away.

Hi Mike,

In my main system with the Bordeaux, I have an Emotiva XPA-5 amp, Channel Islands passive preamp with built in theater bypass, so it does double duty for 2 channel and home theater, and a JDS Labs EL DAC which is based on an AK4490 dac chipset. It's not a super inexpensive dac nor is it super expensive. I've owned it for a few years and am still extremely satisfied with its clarity and accuracy.

My listening room is 15' x 17' with a seated distance of about 15' and about 12' between the speakers with 18" clearance on the sides and behind the speakers. It works great!

HTH

Jim

[Mikerodrig27]

Very nice. I have heard good things about JDS. I like the AK chips. I have a Topping D90 (standard) with the AK4499. The AK chip DACs are pretty nice sounding.

I am going to likely build a passive or buffer preamp soon. When your amp and DAC seem to have enough gain, it is a nice way to go. I have a few preamps and like to run them but I also like the sound of no preamp. The only issue is digitally attenuating the signal versus a pot. Hence a passive.

DACs nowadays seem to be able to drive amps just fine with enough gain. I have a nice stepped attenuator and drew up some PCBs to make a buffer that should solve any impedance mismatches. I can also add a switch to run it as a passive or buffer.

It is nice to hear about your setup. Thank you for sharing.

I will report on my diffuser experiment someday. With your listening position being close to the wall in your room, I could see it being handy to break up those particular reflections.