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I was wondering myself which Accuton driver was used here. From what you say I gather it is the C158-8-085, right? Which appears to be the better choice as opposed to the (not-so-great THD in the midrange) C158-6-851 .
Anyway, holding my breath for the write-up. Great & interesting choice of drivers. :T
-Matt
Hi Matt,
Yes, these are the C158-8-085 versions. Thank you for the kind words.
I'm going to add a BOM, crossover and some other measurements to the 1st post that might be of help.
So the frequency response graph you posted up front is pretty darn flat, I assume this is measured? Nearfield? I find that flat response curves tend to sound really thin & tinny to me, and I much prefer a warmer curve with accentuated bass and rolled off high frequencies (more bass boost than hf rolloff). Do your speakers measure differently 'in room' where you get a bass boost from the room? Thoughts?
My part of the collaboration is to come up with ideas, collaborate with Curt about the drivers and I build the cabinets. He then does the crossover development. We've been working together on different projects for over 10 years and he's gotten to know me and my tastes quite well. I don't like thin speakers I like strong, solid bass with voicing that has a natural warmth to it. This was actually one of the discussions we had regarding Accuton drivers. I've found them a bit analytical sounding on various designs I've heard in the past and he said he'd take care of that. Curt voiced the Bordeaux's with just the right amount of warmth so that they are very natural sounding but still have the exceptional detail and depth they're known for. Curt is a crossover master and he nailed it.
Curt took all the measurements. They were done in his development room which is just like the rooms you and I both have so they're voiced to sound correct in a normal listening environment. They also have open back mids and tweeter so the crossover is optimized to blend the rear wave with the front wave when the cabinet is positioned 12" -36" from the wall behind. The Accuton has a tremendous amount of rear energy which required a different approach than the Statements, Anthology's or Finalists to tame the rear wave. The Bordeaux's have the 6" PVC tube lined with one inch foam but with the rear portion of the tube plugged with a 4" thick plug of foam plus a handful of polyfill against the foam plug. They still have back energy but it is now manageable and blends perfectly with the front wave to achieve the frequency response you see in the graph I posted. That was taken at one meter per normal measuring procedures in Curt's development room.
The AST2560 is anything but bright. It is extremely accurate. If your tastes are to rolled off highs you may not like them the way they are designed. They are not bright but they are very accurate which is what I want in a speaker. I suspect Curt could tell you what changes would need to be made in the crossover to roll off the top end since he lifted the top response to correct the natural 4 db roll off it has at 20K to suite me.
I like the measurements. I suspect Curt has optimised for the power response, so the on-axis amplitude response may be misleading.
After measuring the Statement II, it was the treble and bass that looked like it could do with some improvement (?larger woofers, ?Hiquphon OW1)
Jim- where do cross the RS225 to the C158? Could the woofers be instead mounted on the side (dual-opposed), for a slimmer cabinet?
1st of all, I should make clear that every collaboration Curt and I have done were for me in my home. If they fit others needs, great! If not there are many designs that might be a better fit for their listening tastes.
I like big bass capability and a slightly warm, smooth, detailed mid-range with smooth detailed and accurate highs. Since I used my speakers for both critical music listening and home theater, dynamic range is important to me. The Statements, Anthology's and Bordeaux's are all capable of around 115 DB. That's enough for me.
I've used and listened to many dome tweeters over the years and always find a good ribbon more realistic sounding. That includes AirCirc's, Transducer Labs, Hiq's, Excels etc. They are all very good for domes but not the best sound available to my ears plus they all cost a lot. Now, I've added the AC AST2560 to my list as favorites. Another ribbon that Curt is working with that not to many have seen or heard is the Bozhen CQ76 Ribbon. It's a hybrid that crossed low and sounds great with ultra low distortion. He demoed a speaker he developed using it for a gentleman in Canada who is the Canadian distributor for them. It sounded great! It's available in the US from Rick Craig at Selah Audio.
Back to the discussion. I've not found a woofer that reaches lower than the RS225 in a cabinet of 35-40 liters per driver that wouldn't require a much wider and deeper cabinet that is also affordable, plus it has a 5 year warranty. I've never been a fan of side woofers. They need to cross no higher than 200 Hz. from my understanding, and I like bass drivers facing me rather than reflecting off walls. What if there's no side wall? There are a lot of possible combinations but would it sound any better or just be more expensive without any real benefit? We didn't think so.
Curt crossed the RS225's to the C158 close to 500 Hz. That is what worked best for the drivers to achieve the smooth natural sound we wanted. He could have gone lower but it didn't sound as good.
Regarding the on axis measurement, that was done in his development room with carpet, drapes, some wall treatment etc. so it mimics most home environments that speakers will be used in. Open back is a whole different ball game than conventional closed back speakers. The amount of foam used can alter the mids for that "smiley face" FR some love or it can be made more forward just by adjusting the amount of foam used in the tunnels. This applies to every Statement series, Anthology or Finalist speaker we've designed. It's super flexible and allows simple end user adjustment of the mid balance.
My part of the collaboration is to come up with ideas, collaborate with Curt about the drivers and I build the cabinets. He then does the crossover development. We've been working together on different projects for over 10 years and he's gotten to know me and my tastes quite well. I don't like thin speakers I like strong, solid bass with voicing that has a natural warmth to it. This was actually one of the discussions we had regarding Accuton drivers. I've found them a bit analytical sounding on various designs I've heard in the past and he said he'd take care of that. Curt voiced the Bordeaux's with just the right amount of warmth so that they are very natural sounding but still have the exceptional detail and depth they're known for. Curt is a crossover master and he nailed it.
Curt took all the measurements. They were done in his development room which is just like the rooms you and I both have so they're voiced to sound correct in a normal listening environment. They also have open back mids and tweeter so the crossover is optimized to blend the rear wave with the front wave when the cabinet is positioned 12" -36" from the wall behind. The Accuton has a tremendous amount of rear energy which required a different approach than the Statements, Anthology's or Finalists to tame the rear wave. The Bordeaux's have the 6" PVC tube lined with one inch foam but with the rear portion of the tube plugged with a 4" thick plug of foam plus a handful of polyfill against the foam plug. They still have back energy but it is now manageable and blends perfectly with the front wave to achieve the frequency response you see in the graph I posted. That was taken at one meter per normal measuring procedures in Curt's development room.
The AST2560 is anything but bright. It is extremely accurate. If your tastes are to rolled off highs you may not like them the way they are designed. They are not bright but they are very accurate which is what I want in a speaker. I suspect Curt could tell you what changes would need to be made in the crossover to roll off the top end since he lifted the top response to correct the natural 4 db roll off it has at 20K to suite me.
HTH
Jim
. . . .
Last edited by IslandHydro; 31 July 2017, 22:46 Monday.
Interesting: So you think they measure ~as flat in your room as they did in Curt's development room? And yet you find them to have strong, solid bass with voicing that has a natural warmth to it? Anyone else have experience along these lines? People with decent testing equipment finding flat sounds good on their systems? I'm not in any way doubting your word Jim, I just find it runs quite counter to what I've found in my own experience, so I'm puzzled and trying to figure out why?
I can't tell you how they measure in my listening room and quite honestly I don't care. I only care about the sound. I can't tell you what you've heard or under what conditions the measurements you're using as a reference were taken, I can only tell you what I hear and what my experiences have been. Have you ever listened to any of the Statements series, Anthology's or Finalists? They're all voiced the same and so are the Bordeaux's. The day I picked them up from Curt, I and two others that are our final voicing quality control group were also there and we spent a couple hours listening to the Bordeaux's on many reference quality recordings. They sound the same in my listening room. I don't own speakers without strong bass, clean detailed mids with natural warmth and articulate highs and I can assure you Curt wouldn't tell me they were ready for my inspection unless they were. That's not the way he operates.
Towards the end of this thread at PE you'll find feedback from a couple of guys that listened to them at Dakota DIY. If you come to the Midwest, you're welcome to listen to them in person. http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...for-a-bordeaux
I can't tell you how they measure in my listening room and quite honestly I don't care. I only care about the sound. I can't tell you what you've heard or under what conditions the measurements you're using as a reference were taken, I can only tell you what I hear and what my experiences have been. Have you ever listened to any of the Statements series, Anthology's or Finalists? They're all voiced the same and so are the Bordeaux's. The day I picked them up from Curt, I and two others that are our final voicing quality control group were also there and we spent a couple hours listening to the Bordeaux's on many reference quality recordings. They sound the same in my listening room. I don't own speakers without strong bass, clean detailed mids with natural warmth and articulate highs and I can assure you Curt wouldn't tell me they were ready for my inspection unless they were. That's not the way he operates.
Towards the end of this thread at PE you'll find feedback from a couple of guys that listened to them at Dakota DIY. If you come to the Midwest, you're welcome to listen to them in person. http://techtalk.parts-express.com/fo...for-a-bordeaux
HTH
Jim
. . . .
Last edited by IslandHydro; 31 July 2017, 22:42 Monday.
IslandHydro, note that there is a school of thought (Linkwitz and others) that suggests perfectly flat is not what you want for proper reproduction of the original sound. A couple dB tilt down across the band sounds more natural. The basis is the difference between a source directly in front of you and the way a phantom mono signal gets to your ears with a different head related transfer function. I was a bit apprehensive when Jon suggested a crossover for the Wavecor Ardents with the that built in (59 year old ears), but it sounds as Jim describes here. Solid, articulate bass and plenty of detail in the top end without getting analytical. I flattened the response with DSP and much preferred the tilt.
Jon has a thread about this voicing. It can be implemented with DSP or a few passive parts at line level quite easily. Try it for a bit, you may prefer a slight tilt to your flat response.
Ok, I'm a bit embarrassed.. I just went back and looked more closely at your fr plots, I hadn't noticed that the vscale is pretty large. So in the end you have nearly a 5 db bump on the bass, which is roughly what I'm used to. The picture is fairly low res so I missed the scale. I've never built an open back design, care to share why you went that way? Does it add some sort of spaciousness or airyness (sp?). Any downsides?
No worries! Curt calls me a bass head. LOL I like a firm foundation for the music. :W I'm in agreement with Bob. His comments pretty much mirror my thoughts.
I'm not a crossover designer, that's Curt's expertise, but I have picked up a few things over the 15 years I've been doing DIY. From a voicing perspective, flat is where you start but rarely where you end. The changes are usually minor adjustments to crossover points and a 1-3 db FR manipulation here and there to achieve the natural sound most people enjoy. Voicing wise, the Statements series, Anthology's, Finalists and Bordeaux's will be very, very similar yet they all have slightly different crossover points and curves. I'm of the opinion that voicing is the true black art of crossover design and what separates crossover designers. Computers and software (DSP's too) has changed things so almost anyone can achieve flat response but flat doesn't always sound good or as good as it can, IMHO.
Anyway, we started doing open back mids in 2007 on the original Statements to open up the sound stage and eliminate the "box sound" often associated with closed back speakers. It worked. The soundstage is large and much more realistic and real sounding to my ears. Another plus is that the sound can be easily fine tuned in your listening room by simply changing the amount of foam in the mid tunnels. Have a dead room, less foam. Have a live room, more foam. You can also alter the depth/forward sound of the mids by altering the amount of foam. It's very flexible and easy for the speaker builder to do.
The down side of open back mids is the speakers need room to breathe. We suggest 18" from the back of the cabinet to the wall behind with a similar distance on the sides of the speaker with no large objects between the speakers tall enough to block the front/back blend of the reflected sound. 18"-36" from the rear/side walls is just about perfect but 12" will still give a decent sound stage. Also, there's a balance between a spacious sound stages and pinpoint imaging. The Bordeaux's, IMHO, are the best yet in this regard. If you didn't look at the back of the top cabinet you wouldn't know its open back on both mids and tweeter. It just sounds big and presence is real to my ears.
Curt is the definitive source for these kind of questions. If my answers aren't filling in all the blanks for you, send Curt an email. http://speakerdesignworks.com/ He's super busy so it may take a bit for him to answer but he will get back to you.
I didn't mean to sound critical of your designs decisions. I was just asking about motivations for building this speaker.
I only have the Statement II (not the Finalists or Anthology etc), and in terms of acoustics they are 10/10 for me.
The natural midrange, the potent bass and delicate treble sounds wonderful.
I love the tall slim proportions, and the WMTMW appearance with the grill off. But I can certainly see the desire for smaller cabinets- the Statement II is not the kind of speaker I want to be shift around, if I want to look after my back.
After I measured the speakers's harmonic distortion in my room, the only thing I could see as "room for improvement" was in the bass and treble. My measurements were similar to Curt's measurements, which demonstrate lower harmonic the distortion in the midrange, when compared to the bass and treble.
I didn't mean to sound critical of your designs decisions. I was just asking about motivations for building this speaker.
I only have the Statement II (not the Finalists or Anthology etc), and in terms of acoustics they are 10/10 for me.
The natural midrange, the potent bass and delicate treble sounds wonderful.
I love the tall slim proportions, and the WMTMW appearance with the grill off. But I can certainly see the desire for smaller cabinets- the Statement II is not the kind of speaker I want to be shift around, if I want to look after my back.
After I measured the speakers's harmonic distortion in my room, the only thing I could see as "room for improvement" was in the bass and treble. My measurements were similar to Curt's measurements, which demonstrate lower harmonic the distortion in the midrange, when compared to the bass and treble.
No worries! I didn't take it as critical at all. I was just trying to answer your comments as best I could. I do find the bump in distortion at 70 Hz. interesting. The Anthology's and Bordeaux's don't show this. I can't help but wonder if the newer style RS225's have improved distortion. Do you have shielded woofers or the newer non shielded variety?
The the small increase above 3K is expected and still excellent.
BTW, The Statements II have been my reference for sometime and have qualities I enjoy a lot.
IslandHydro, note that there is a school of thought (Linkwitz and others) that suggests perfectly flat is not what you want for proper reproduction of the original sound. A couple dB tilt down across the band sounds more natural. The basis is the difference between a source directly in front of you and the way a phantom mono signal gets to your ears with a different head related transfer function. I was a bit apprehensive when Jon suggested a crossover for the Wavecor Ardents with the that built in (59 year old ears), but it sounds as Jim describes here. Solid, articulate bass and plenty of detail in the top end without getting analytical. I flattened the response with DSP and much preferred the tilt.
Jon has a thread about this voicing. It can be implemented with DSP or a few passive parts at line level quite easily. Try it for a bit, you may prefer a slight tilt to your flat response.
. . . .
Last edited by IslandHydro; 31 July 2017, 22:42 Monday.
No worries! Curt calls me a bass head. LOL I like a firm foundation for the music. :W I'm in agreement with Bob. His comments pretty much mirror my thoughts.
I'm not a crossover designer, that's Curt's expertise, but I have picked up a few things over the 15 years I've been doing DIY. From a voicing perspective, flat is where you start but rarely where you end. The changes are usually minor adjustments to crossover points and a 1-3 db FR manipulation here and there to achieve the natural sound most people enjoy. Voicing wise, the Statements series, Anthology's, Finalists and Bordeaux's will be very, very similar yet they all have slightly different crossover points and curves. I'm of the opinion that voicing is the true black art of crossover design and what separates crossover designers. Computers and software (DSP's too) has changed things so almost anyone can achieve flat response but flat doesn't always sound good or as good as it can, IMHO.
Anyway, we started doing open back mids in 2007 on the original Statements to open up the sound stage and eliminate the "box sound" often associated with closed back speakers. It worked. The soundstage is large and much more realistic and real sounding to my ears. Another plus is that the sound can be easily fine tuned in your listening room by simply changing the amount of foam in the mid tunnels. Have a dead room, less foam. Have a live room, more foam. You can also alter the depth/forward sound of the mids by altering the amount of foam. It's very flexible and easy for the speaker builder to do.
The down side of open back mids is the speakers need room to breathe. We suggest 18" from the back of the cabinet to the wall behind with a similar distance on the sides of the speaker with no large objects between the speakers tall enough to block the front/back blend of the reflected sound. 18"-36" from the rear/side walls is just about perfect but 12" will still give a decent sound stage. Also, there's a balance between a spacious sound stages and pinpoint imaging. The Bordeaux's, IMHO, are the best yet in this regard. If you didn't look at the back of the top cabinet you wouldn't know its open back on both mids and tweeter. It just sounds big and presence is real to my ears.
Curt is the definitive source for these kind of questions. If my answers aren't filling in all the blanks for you, send Curt an email. http://speakerdesignworks.com/ He's super busy so it may take a bit for him to answer but he will get back to you.
HTH
Jim
. . . .
Last edited by IslandHydro; 31 July 2017, 22:41 Monday.
IslandHydro:
Why did you delete your posts? I enjoyed the parts that I was able to read from Jim's clipping. You added to the discussion and allowed the more knowledgeable members to respond, thus helping the newbies among us (i.e., me). I hope you will reconsider coming back.
Mike
Jim:
If (when) the Bordeaux are added to an HT, what would you recommend for center and surrounds? Still the Statement II Centers, or could there be something new around the corner?
This is all hypothetical as my December build budget was spent last Friday on oral surgery. I would have MUCH more enjoyed the great music listening than the next three-to-four months of soft-food only diet.:W
Mike
Jim:
If (when) the Bordeaux are added to an HT, what would you recommend for center and surrounds? Still the Statement II Centers, or could there be something new around the corner?
This is all hypothetical as my December build budget was spent last Friday on oral surgery. I would have MUCH more enjoyed the great music listening than the next three-to-four months of soft-food only diet.:W
Mike
Hi Mike,
My sympathies for the oral surgery and the lengthy recovery. Ouch!
I'm using the Statements II center and I find it to be a near perfect match with the Bordeaux's. Panning is seamless. They are all voiced the same which is what I've found to be the most critical factor in LCR speakers. I use Statements Monitors for surrounds and have for years. The new Micro Statements would certainly be a good option with the 80 Hz. and up setting in your processor.
CAD cabinet drawings are complete, BOM, measurements and crossover are all included. The design isn't posted on Curt's website yet. He's super busy so in the meantime, send me an email to jim at jholtz.us and I'll attach the info with some build tips that should make it easier.
CAD cabinet drawings are complete, BOM, measurements and crossover are all included. The design isn't posted on Curt's website yet. He's super busy so in the meantime, send me an email to jim at jholtz.us and I'll attach the info with some build tips that should make it easier.
Jim
Wohoo!
I just might be building theese this winter, but having a hard time to decide which design to go for, but if you dont mind ill send you a email to get a little bit more info
Do you know what the nominal impedance is? I haven't built my Statement II's yet, and this looks like an interesting competitor. I'm 80% done building an amp which was configured specifically to drive the "easy 6R load" of the Statements.
Either way, they look fantastic, and I'm sure they sound fantastic as well.
Do you know what the nominal impedance is? I haven't built my Statement II's yet, and this looks like an interesting competitor. I'm 80% done building an amp which was configured specifically to drive the "easy 6R load" of the Statements.
Either way, they look fantastic, and I'm sure they sound fantastic as well.
Cheers,
Tim
Hi Tim,
The Bordeaux will be a bit closer to a 4 ohm load the the Statements II but should not be a hard load to drive with any current amp as long as you don't get crazy with the volume control. Honestly, I haven't owned an amp for 25 years that wouldn't power the Bordeaux comfortably.
The Bordeaux are very much for the hard core audiophile. They are excellent on home theater but to really appreciate them, its all about the music.
My system will most likely be used for both music and HT (for a good while anyways). Unless the wife starts playing pop music with the volume up! I might have to changes hobbies in that case!
I have a little bit of time to decide either way. We have a 7 month old son, and we are in the middle of building a house(and living in it too!) On the positive side, my son will be old enough to help me with the cabinets by the time the house is finished!
I look forward to the Bordeaux information once it becomes available on speakerdesignworks, and once I start building something I will be sure to start a thread!
Thanks again for all the good work you and Curt do for the rest of us simple folk who just want good sound .
The Bordeaux will be a bit closer to a 4 ohm load the the Statements II but should not be a hard load to drive with any current amp as long as you don't get crazy with the volume control. Honestly, I haven't owned an amp for 25 years that wouldn't power the Bordeaux comfortably.
The Bordeaux are very much for the hard core audiophile. They are excellent on home theater but to really appreciate them, its all about the music.
You mention making it modular in order upgrade the T/M... but you could upgrade the bottom as well. The RS225s are top notch. I have used 8 of them myself. But there are a few others out there that are better, but the cost is stupid high.
I agree with Jon Marsh. That mid is just about as good as it gets. I don't think you will ever come back from that one. I have listened to 2 designs with Accuton mids and I have to say they are the best I have heard.
Now you guys need to have a nice design like this that can go near a wall so the wife's will approve
Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if I were married to you I'd put poison in your coffee"
Winston Churchill "Nancy, if I were married to you I'd drink it."
You mention making it modular in order upgrade the T/M... but you could upgrade the bottom as well. The RS225s are top notch. I have used 8 of them myself. But there are a few others out there that are better, but the cost is stupid high.
I agree with Jon Marsh. That mid is just about as good as it gets. I don't think you will ever come back from that one. I have listened to 2 designs with Accuton mids and I have to say they are the best I have heard.
Now you guys need to have a nice design like this that can go near a wall so the wife's will approve
The modular style cabinet was more for ease of moving than upgradability but considering my track record over the last few years,it made sense.:W After living with the Bordeaux for several months, I agree that I'd be hard pressed to find another mid driver that would offer a cleaner, clearer and more accurate presentation, at least anything that I could come close to affording. I like it a lot.
We cross the RS225's low enough, that I'm not sure I could hear the differences from the much, much more expensive bass drivers. If we crossed higher the more expensive drivers would be more interesting to me. As used, I find the RS225's excellent and affordable.
I've designed every one of the speakers Curt and I have developed for me and my listening room which has the flexibility of "audiophile" positioning if I wanted to set them way out. I found the 12"-24" distance a good compromise for most rooms and decent WAF. I hope it works for others but my room comes 1st.
The modular style cabinet was more for ease of moving than upgradability but considering my track record over the last few years,it made sense.:W After living with the Bordeaux for several months, I agree that I'd be hard pressed to find another mid driver that would offer a cleaner, clearer and more accurate presentation, at least anything that I could come close to affording. I like it a lot.
We cross the RS225's low enough, that I'm not sure I could hear the differences from the much, much more expensive bass drivers. If we crossed higher the more expensive drivers would be more interesting to me. As used, I find the RS225's excellent and affordable.
I've designed every one of the speakers Curt and I have developed for me and my listening room which has the flexibility of "audiophile" positioning if I wanted to set them way out. I found the 12"-24" distance a good compromise for most rooms and decent WAF. I hope it works for others but my room comes 1st.
Jim[/QUOTE]
My bad 12" is really good. I must have missed that when I was reading late.
Lady Nancy Astor: "Winston, if I were married to you I'd put poison in your coffee"
Winston Churchill "Nancy, if I were married to you I'd drink it."
My bad 12" is really good. I must have missed that when I was reading late.
We always recommend 18" since that is the distance they were designed for and the minimum distance they sounded the best. 12" works fine but you've lost a bit of spaciousness in the sound stage which would be fine for most people and normal use like watching TV etc. or background music. If you're critically listening, pull them out.
Wish I could hear these or any of your designs. Maybe I can make it to the New England meet and someone will have one. If not maybe one of the these days I'll pull the trigger. Thanks for sharing.
You planning on putting this on MeniscusAudio? What amp do you use?Emotiva? and are you happy with the amp for the long term?
Wish I could hear these or any of your designs. Maybe I can make it to the New England meet and someone will have one. If not maybe one of the these days I'll pull the trigger. Thanks for sharing.
You planning on putting this on MeniscusAudio? What amp do you use?Emotiva? and are you happy with the amp for the long term?
Thanks for your interest.
Currently, we're sending all the build info to interested builders via email. I ask that they send an email to my email address which is jim (at) jholtz.us and I'll return the email with everything you need to build the cabinets, build the crossover and a word doc with build tips and a few pictures that might help. We're planning on posting the design on Curt's website time permitting which probably means after the 1st of the year.
Meniscus is supplying parts for the build so it's a single order rather than sourcing from the top three individually but no "kits" for a while.
There are 8-10 builds currently in progress that I hope to see build threads on in the near future. Winter will certainly slow things down so I don't have a time table.
I like Emotiva and use a XPA-5. I like it a lot! However, there are many good 4 ohm capable amps with 100+ watts at 8 ohms that will do the job. I like the build and sound quality of Emotiva but there are other good brands. I'd suggest avoiding "econo" amps and stick to proven designs that will provide the clean power Accuton/AST2560 drivers deserve.
Currently, we're sending all the build info to interested builders via email. I ask that they send an email to my email address which is jim (at) jholtz.us and I'll return the email with everything you need to build the cabinets, build the crossover and a word doc with build tips and a few pictures that might help. We're planning on posting the design on Curt's website time permitting which probably means after the 1st of the year.
Meniscus is supplying parts for the build so it's a single order rather than sourcing from the top three individually but no "kits" for a while.
There are 8-10 builds currently in progress that I hope to see build threads on in the near future. Winter will certainly slow things down so I don't have a time table.
I like Emotiva and use a XPA-5. I like it a lot! However, there are many good 4 ohm capable amps with 100+ watts at 8 ohms that will do the job. I like the build and sound quality of Emotiva but there are other good brands. I'd suggest avoiding "econo" amps and stick to proven designs that will provide the clean power Accuton/AST2560 drivers deserve.
HTH
Jim
Thanks for the reply.
I accurently have the $200 Emotiva Flex amp with 75watts into 4ohms. I was looking to upgrade to their 150w/channel+ BassX amps. I tested a couple of $1000 75w amps from other good companies and could not say they sound better than the Emotiva, or at least much better.
The modular style cabinet was more for ease of moving than upgradability but considering my track record over the last few years,it made sense.:W After living with the Bordeaux for several months, I agree that I'd be hard pressed to find another mid driver that would offer a cleaner, clearer and more accurate presentation, at least anything that I could come close to affording. I like it a lot.
We cross the RS225's low enough, that I'm not sure I could hear the differences from the much, much more expensive bass drivers. If we crossed higher the more expensive drivers would be more interesting to me. As used, I find the RS225's excellent and affordable.
I've designed every one of the speakers Curt and I have developed for me and my listening room which has the flexibility of "audiophile" positioning if I wanted to set them way out. I found the 12"-24" distance a good compromise for most rooms and decent WAF. I hope it works for others but my room comes 1st.
Jim
Sorry for the shameless bump!
This is typical me, just as I've been collecting parts for my Statements II for quite some time (~4 years now?) and finally got them put together (finishing touches and paint this spring). You guys come along with something new?
I've always wanted to try an DIY Accuton midrange design since I heard them in the XTZ Divine!
Should I feel I need to get started on a new project right away, or just be happy with my Statements IIs (40% movies, 60% music)?
I know the Accuton midrange is a serious contender for among the best mid ranges I've ever heard... But the NE123 is no slouch either in my book.
To be honest, I'm pretty happy with the statements, and it's some time til money allows an "upgrade" and wife forgets that I was not supposed to build anything more for some time...
Always nice to see new designs using high end parts from you guys, and not too far away from the Statement II's price-wise.
Is there any reason for a builder to choose the Statement II over the Bordeaux at the moment?
Good question and it comes down to personal preference. The NE123's have a bit of "organic" sound to them that is smooth, detailed and have a nice well defined presentation. The Bordeaux also have those qualities but kick the mids up a notch for detail and realistic reproduction. You simply hear things in the recordings that were somewhat muted with the Statements II, Statements and Anthology's. The AST2560 we used for the tweeter is also a step up from the ribbon for accuracy, IMHO.
Now the down side. The Bordeaux are extremely revealing so you get to hear all the "warts" in the recordings. Great recordings sound great but lessor recordings not as much. The Statements II or Anthology's are more forgiving.
HTH
Jim
Last edited by Jim Holtz; 24 March 2018, 23:00 Saturday.
Good question and it comes down to personal preference. The NE123's have a bit of "organic" sound to them that is smooth, detailed and have a nice well defined presentation. The Bordeaux also have those qualities but kick the mids up a notch for detail and realistic reproduction. You simply hear things in the recordings that were somewhat muted with the Statements II, Statements and Anthology's. The AST2560 we used for the tweeter is also a step up from the ribbon for accuracy, IMHO.
Now the down side. The Bordeaux are extremely revealing so you get to gear all the "warts" in the recordings. Great recordings sound great but lessor recordings not as much. The Statements II or Anthology's are more forgiving.
HTH
Jim
Thank you for your reply, that makes a lot of sense... I'm a sucker for how reinforced paper cones sound for some reason. But the ceramic ones I've heard have been excellent even if crossing low can be a hassle with some tweeters. Do you experience any issues with the narrow vertical sweet-spot of the AMT?
I might try to build a pair and borrow the 225's from my statements for fun during summer break next year... Should not be overly costly and parts can be repurposed.
I'm also very interested in the new tweeter, do you have measurements available for simulation puposes...?
I do have some quick driver/crossover questions regarding the Statement II's that I guess would be directed to Curt, is he as busy as usual?
Regarding the length of the ports on the statements, I guess it's more or less the same for the Bordeaux? Asking since I'm using Aeroports in my designs, it's a Swedish designed flared port, and one of the best ports you can get over here...
But it would be grand to also know the inner diameter of the PE-ports you use to compare.
I do as always appreciate your sharing of your works with the community!
Thank you for your reply, that makes a lot of sense... I'm a sucker for how reinforced paper cones sound for some reason. But the ceramic ones I've heard have been excellent even if crossing low can be a hassle with some tweeters. Do you experience any issues with the narrow vertical sweet-spot of the AMT?
I might try to build a pair and borrow the 225's from my statements for fun during summer break next year... Should not be overly costly and parts can be repurposed.
I'm also very interested in the new tweeter, do you have measurements available for simulation puposes...?
I do have some quick driver/crossover questions regarding the Statement II's that I guess would be directed to Curt, is he as busy as usual?
Regarding the length of the ports on the statements, I guess it's more or less the same for the Bordeaux? Asking since I'm using Aeroports in my designs, it's a Swedish designed flared port, and one of the best ports you can get over here...
But it would be grand to also know the inner diameter of the PE-ports you use to compare.
I do as always appreciate your sharing of your works with the community!
/ Daniel
Hi Daniel,
I find the AST2560 AMT's very similar to the Fountek NeoCD3.0 we use in the Statements line up for dispersion. They are both similar in off axis listening. I don't have the full measurements Curt runs during development but in everyday use unless you're standing 5'-6' from the speaker, I don't notice any particular decrease in vertical dispersion. We are using the AST2560 open back so that would also impact it somewhat.
Crossover questions go to Curt. Yes, he is always busy but he'll get back to you as time permits.
The ports are 3" ID Precision Ports and the tube length is cut to 5" plus inner and outer flares. That's based on 70-80 liters cabinet volume.
I find the AST2560 AMT's very similar to the Fountek NeoCD3.0 we use in the Statements line up for dispersion. They are both similar in off axis listening. I don't have the full measurements Curt runs during development but in everyday use unless you're standing 5'-6' from the speaker, I don't notice any particular decrease in vertical dispersion. We are using the AST2560 open back so that would also impact it somewhat.
Crossover questions go to Curt. Yes, he is always busy but he'll get back to you as time permits.
The ports are 3" ID Precision Ports and the tube length is cut to 5" plus inner and outer flares. That's based on 70-80 liters cabinet volume.
HTH
Jim
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Thank you Jim! I guess email is the prefered medium to reach him? I see an experiment with ASTs in my statements coming up... Already had to change a ribbon due to thin sharp objects getting attracted by the magnet gap, which it turns out is not healthy for ribbons! I replaced the ribbon with ordinary household foil first and it actually measured pretty good. Then I got real replacement ribbons, and it's up and running as usual again. Actually measures better than stock, I think the ribbon was stretched a tad too hard from factory.
I've always wanted to try AMTs, so that might be fun.
My ports have an internal diameter of 68mm / ~2.8", not exactly 3, even if they're supposed to be... I'll have to recheck the lengths.
Thanks yet again! And sorry for a little off topic.
Thank you Jim! I guess email is the prefered medium to reach him? I see an experiment with ASTs in my statements coming up... Already had to change a ribbon due to thin sharp objects getting attracted by the magnet gap, which it turns out is not healthy for ribbons! I replaced the ribbon with ordinary household foil first and it actually measured pretty good. Then I got real replacement ribbons, and it's up and running as usual again. Actually measures better than stock, I think the ribbon was stretched a tad too hard from factory.
I've always wanted to try AMTs, so that might be fun.
My ports have an internal diameter of 68mm / ~2.8", not exactly 3, even if they're supposed to be... I'll have to recheck the lengths.
Thanks yet again! And sorry for a little off topic.
Daniel
It's going to be tough to play with the AST2560's in the Statements. The AST2560's do not have a closed back or cup on the rear of the driver, just a piece of felt. If you aren't using them in a separate cabinet compartment you'd need to create one and I'm not sure how you'd do that on the Statements after the cabinet is built. They're also square rather than round so definitly not a drop in replacement.
2.8" is close enough based on Unibox and 5" should be just fine.
It's going to be tough to play with the AST2560's in the Statements. The AST2560's do not have a closed back or cup on the rear of the driver, just a piece of felt. If you aren't using them in a separate cabinet compartment you'd need to create one and I'm not sure how you'd do that on the Statements after the cabinet is built. They're also square rather than round so definitly not a drop in replacement.
2.8" is close enough based on Unibox and 5" should be just fine.
Yes, email is the best way to reach Curt.
Jim
Yes, I know they're semi-open backed... Which requires you to have some kind of chamber behind it, or have it openair mounted.
For the sake of experimentation and plain curiosity I can without too much trouble fashion a sealed rear chamber for it in my statements with a little work, my statements have a slightly different internal bracing in the mid tunnels just behind the tweeters.
It'll be snug as heck, but I'd love to try them in the application in the name of science.
I'd also have to make new round faceplates, which is the least of my trouble. I have access to 3D printing and lasercutting... During summer break I usually have too much free time anyways.
Just lets sum it up with that I'm way too curious at times. I've been away from speaker building and crossover design for several years due to an injury and school... But was hoping to get started again, this seemed like a good place to start. I've only desgined "lesser" two way designs before with very well behaved drivers, and nothing as complex as the statements. Don't get me wrong. I really love the founteks but I'd love to just compare them on the same terms. Worst case I'll just make a new statement "top box" for mids and tweeter. Or perhaps it's just another excuse to bring out the measuring microphone, test baffles and the crossover-parts bin?
I'll drop Kurt an email regarding a few minor questions.
yeah, 2.8" should be close enough but I've had some odd results with flared ports through the years... sometimes the tuning have been off even if length has been correct.. and adjustements have been neccesary.
Can you please tell me if you have had the opportunity to try these with a tube setup? Currently building a VTA sp14 tube preamp and will be following up with their monoblock tube amps. Yes....going through my second childhood!
Also I see the kit is on Meniscus. Do the Mundorf caps provide a significant performance improvement and would you recommend making any other substitutions to the parts list?
Thank you in advance...looking forward to this build.
Can you please tell me if you have had the opportunity to try these with a tube setup? Currently building a VTA sp14 tube preamp and will be following up with their monoblock tube amps. Yes....going through my second childhood!
Also I see the kit is on Meniscus. Do the Mundorf caps provide a significant performance improvement and would you recommend making any other substitutions to the parts list?
Thank you in advance...looking forward to this build.
Cheers
Mac
Hi Mac,
Welcome to HT Guide! There are a lot of good people that hang out here.
I don't know of any builders so far that are running the Bordeaux on tube amps. I personally prefer tube front ends with solid state amps. The Bordeaux spend enough time at 4 ohms that any amp you use needs to be 4 ohm capable with a 4 ohm watt rating of around 150 WPC. More is better. Just like all speakers, you can use a lower powered amp but your dynamic and maximum SPL capabilities are reduced.
I think Mark added Mundorf's so there is an additional option for builders. Curt and I are big Clarity cap fans. We recommend Clarity PX caps in midrange and bass circuits with CSA in the tweeter circuit. If you're feeling really bucks up, ESA or CSA would be wonderful in the midrange but PX's are wonderful. These are all my opinions, so move forward accordingly.
Would it be of value to post the build process on HT Guide?
Cheers
Mac
Absolutely! It helps others that are interested in building the Bordeaux and more importantly you'll be able to ask the community questions about cabinet issues and general build questions if you need to. There are many experienced builders here that enjoy helping others.
Just a thought, I don't know what your skill level is but Meniscus does offer an option to assemble the crossovers which can be very beneficial.
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