It's time for a Bordeaux!

[Jim Holtz]

[IMG]DSC_4987 by Jim Holtz, on Flickr[/IMG]

The
Bordeaux’s

A collaboration between Curt Campbell and Jim Holtz

Project Overview:
The Bordeaux’s were conceived to move another step closer to the best mid-range possible without any sacrifice in overall dynamics when compared to the Statements II’s. An additional goal was to create this level of performance in a smaller cabinet with higher WAF and greater ease of placement. Another goal I had for the project was to build the cabinet in a modular design that allowed the speaker to be moved more easily and with an added benefit of T/M upgradability if my DIY speaker building sickness kicked in again. :-)

The Specs:
The Bordeaux’s are based on the following driver compliment;

• Aurum Cantus AST2560 AMT tweeter
• Accuton C158-8-085 midrange
• (2) Dayton RS225-8 woofers

The AST2560 tweeter and Accuton C158 midrange are housed in a separate cabinet which sets on top of a “bass bin” that houses the RS225’s and is secured in place with press fit grill guides. Both the AST2560 and C158 employ open back designs that are tweaked to balance the rear wave of sound with the front wave which provides an expansive sound stage but also retains desirable pinpoint imaging.

Why these drivers?
The RS225-8’s have been our go to bass drivers for the last several projects. They provide very clean, tight bass into the low 30’s in a manageable cabinet size with the added plus that they’re affordable.
The Accuton C158 is a new driver based on Accuton’s latest hybrid system with both a ferrite and neodymium magnet, working in cooperation to achieve linearized BL(x) - and Inductance(x)-curves. This will guarantee a clear and undistorted midrange quality even at high bass loads. Curt urged me to use this driver. He’s an Accuton fan and told me I’d never be happy until I used Accuton as a midrange.
Finally, I had heard so much positive feedback on the AST2560 that I wanted to give it a try. Bluntly, it’s built like a tank and has accuracy I’d not experienced in a tweeter before.

Cabinet drawings will be available as I have time and can find a volunteer to create CAD drawings. Everything needed to build the Bordeaux's will be posted on Curt’s website when documentation is done and time permits to present the project in our usual manner. http://speakerdesignworks.com/

EDIT: The complete build plans are now available with the kit at Meniscus.

Enjoy the music!

Jim

Bordeaux Crossover BOM.doc

[BobEllis]

Pretty! I agree with Curt, having now heard Accuton midrange it's hard to contemplate using anything else. Hope you'll be happy with it for a while.

[Ken C]

It's time for a Bordeaux!

Very nice!

[Jim Holtz]

Pretty! I agree with Curt, having now heard Accuton midrange it's hard to contemplate using anything else. Hope you'll be happy with it for a while.

Thanks Bob! I think these will keep me satisfied for some time. Plus, I have a monitor style speaker in planning stages that'll be used as a traveling system that'll feed my DIY speaker building illness at least for a while. :W I'm old enough that I shouldn't be building any more speakers anyhow. I keep telling Curt that my ears are going to fall off one these days. I'm retired and my wife will be soon so we're thinking about wintering in much warmer weather than Iowa offers in the winter.

We'll see how it all works out.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Very nice!

Hi Ken,

I knew there would be someone that would be in the middle of a build that might be interested. However, the Bordeaux's cost twice as much as the Anthology's so its significantly more money and it could also be a while before we get all the documentation together and the CAD drawings done. There won't be any builds started in the near future.

You'll have plenty of time to enjoy your Anthology's until then.

Jim

[doubleTrouble]

Jim Holtz, it's great you keep us busy with new projects. Just yesterday I checked the Curt's site for some new designs.

But someone should ask this $1,000,000 question: how do they sound?

[Ken C]

Hi Ken,

I knew there would be someone that would be in the middle of a build that might be interested. However, the Bordeaux's cost twice as much as the Anthology's so its significantly more money and it could also be a while before we get all the documentation together and the CAD drawings done. There won't be any builds started in the near future.

You'll have plenty of time to enjoy your Anthology's until then.

Jim

I’m already envisioning them being shifted to surround duty after a brief stint as mains. Can’t wait to learn more about the Bordeaux’s.

Ken

[Jim Holtz]

Jim Holtz, it's great you keep us busy with new projects. Just yesterday I checked the Curt's site for some new designs.

But someone should ask this $1,000,000 question: how do they sound?

I'm more than a little biased so FWIW, the Bordeaux's have replaced the Statements II in my main system as my reference. The Statements II now belong to an extended family member who is thrilled with them.

The Bordeaux's have the best highs I've heard. I'm really enamored with the accuracy and presence of the AST2560. The mids are superb, IMHO. Sound quality is crystal clear and detailed with a depth I've only heard in an Accuton driver. Curt worked his magic on the crossover so voicing is spot on with just the right amount of natural warmth to give that "they are here" presence. Bass is clean tight and very solid.

All that said, the differences between the Bordeaux's and Statements II are very much personal taste and fall into an audiophile comparison rather than glaring differences.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

I’m already envisioning them being shifted to surround duty after a brief stint as mains. Can’t wait to learn more about the Bordeaux’s.

Ken

Hi Ken,

I think you'll be quite surprised at how good the Anthology's sound. SB15's have a great midrange and the 22TFF compliments it extremely well. IMHO, the Anthology's are one of the most over looked speakers Curt and I have developed. They sound great for music and have the dynamics to really make home theater come alive. Plus, they're affordable.

The Bordeaux's are my audiophile pursuit of the best mid-range sound quality I can afford. When the bar gets so high, the improvements are incremental and require comparable upgrades in the front end source electronics. Its a slippery slope! 8O

Jim

[JoeAngelicchio]

Very nice.

[deewan]

OH FOR THE LOVE!!! Just when I think I am done building speakers....

Jim you need to end your illness so my illness can also end.

FYI - My Statement II remix have been sitting in a corner of a two bedroom apartment for the past 5 months. The house we are building is about 2 weeks from being complete. Then I'll have all my tools to start building again and possibly space to setup some of my sound systems.

[flamethrower1]

Nice job Jim.
I am sure, as with all of your previous collaborations with Curt, these will be exceptional sounding speakers.
Not that I think you will need it but, good luck.

[fish fingers]

Super nice. Out of interest where did you cross the tweet?

[augerpro]

Nice selection of drivers! I used that AST2560 only for a short time, but I thought it was the best behaved tweeter I've ever used. Better than the the RS28A which is quite a beast.

[Jim Holtz]

OH FOR THE LOVE!!! Just when I think I am done building speakers....

Jim you need to end your illness so my illness can also end.

FYI - My Statement II remix have been sitting in a corner of a two bedroom apartment for the past 5 months. The house we are building is about 2 weeks from being complete. Then I'll have all my tools to start building again and possibly space to setup some of my sound systems.

Hi Darren,

Wow! You'll be in serious music withdrawal by the time you get in the new house. I hope you built a HT/listening room for all your toys! :W

You notice I designed the Bordeaux's in a modular format so upgrades, if there are any, will be easy to do. :T

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Super nice. Out of interest where did you cross the tweet?

thanks! I believe Curt crossed it about 2.3K. It'll go a bit lower than that without strain but the C158 liked that crossover point the best.

Jim

[IslandHydro]

. . . .

[Jim Holtz]

Is the enclosure for the 8's sealed? Box volume? Are the 8's 4ohm wired in series or 8ohm in parallel?

The "Bass BIN" cabinet of the Bordeaux's measures 11 1/2"W x 22"D x 29" H with a 1 1/2" thick front baffle and 3/4" everywhere else. There are (2) windowpane horizontal braces, one located below the top RS225 and one below the bottom RS225 with short windowpane vertical braces from the top of the cabinet to the top brace and from the bottom brace to the bottom of the cabinet. The cabinet is ported with a 3" precision port (tube is cut to 5" plus the inner and outer flares) which provides a F/3 of around 32 Hz.

The RS225's are the 8 ohm version and they are wired in parallel.

Per Unibox, net volume on the cabinet is about 84 liters less the volume the drivers and the two short vertical braces consume. This is the same net volume as the Anthology's in a different cabinet configuration.

In real world use, the bass is extremely clean, tight and extended. F/10 is in the low 20's.

Sorry, I don't have CAD drawings yet. I still have to finish the rough drawings before someone can convert them to CAD.

HTH

Jim

[roadrune]

So, how did they do in the MWAF?

[Jim Holtz]

So, how did they do in the MWAF?

At the end of the Over $200 class the Bordeaux's were selected as a fan favorite and brought up to play during the short break while the judges rested their ears before the next class started. I was surrounded with folks asking about them and complimenting their sound quality. Of course I was extremely pleased and had high hopes the judges would agree with the listening audience. Apparently the judges did not. The Bordeaux's were not selected by the judges for any of the top three positions. It was disappointing of course but that's the way it works when you have a 3 judge panel rather than audience ratings. I'm eagerly awaiting the judges feedback to see their comments.

Paul K. won the class with a very nice 2-way based on a Scan Revelator and a TL ceramic dome tweeter. The speaker was very well done and sounded great. Personally, I find the Accuton/AST2560 combination a cut above but that is only my opinion. Paul always has a nice entry and he is a spectacular cabinet builder so congratulations to Paul.

Just a thought about the event. I struggled before deciding to attend MWAF with the fact that I'd drive 10 hours for 3 minutes of music and would have no opportunity to play any of my own cuts which would show off the strengths of the Bordeaux's like all the other DIY events. If the event hadn't coincided with a previously planned trip to visit a brother that now lives in the area, I wouldn't have gone. I hadn't attended MWAF since 2003 and I'll probably not rush back. However, I did win a new DSP plate amp PE just introduced, a T-shirt and a couple free hats. I also saved a buck and half on the only purchase I was interested in making at the tent sale so it wasn't a complete waste of time. 8O

You can probably get feedback on the Bordeaux's sound quality with a separate post on PE's website.

Jim

[roadrune]

Thanks, i will check that thread out.

I am going to build something this winter, and theese are on the short list along with some Troels Gravesen designs and the Anthologys.

[fish fingers]

Its a great design and would love to hear it.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

[Jim Holtz]

Its a great design and would love to hear it.

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Thank you! If you ever get near the Midwest, let me know and I'll see if we can get together for a listening session. The Bordeaux's are easily the best sounding speaker I've ever owned.

Jim

[roadrune]

Sorry Jim, i see now i mesread your post, i thought it was a thread at PE regarding the Bordeux, however i skimmed through the MWAF thread there, and i can see atleast Paul Karmody where surprised you didn't come in top three.

Wish i was in the Us so i could have listened to them, here in Norway we rarely have other options then build it ourselves to hear them...

Today i actually have a Paul K (and Dennis Murphy) design, a ER18 mtm, it has great bass and treble, but are lacking a bit in the mids, and i would guess your designs are a lot better in the mids being threeway.

This might not be the place to ask (and please tell me if i should delete this) but have you heard any of Troels designs (i guess they should sound really good, but the apearance are nowhere close to as nice as yours) and/or the ER18's and are able to compare them with the Bordeux which i can see is your favorite?

[Jim Holtz]

Sorry Jim, i see now i mesread your post, i thought it was a thread at PE regarding the Bordeux, however i skimmed through the MWAF thread there, and i can see atleast Paul Karmody where surprised you didn't come in top three.

Wish i was in the Us so i could have listened to them, here in Norway we rarely have other options then build it ourselves to hear them...

Today i actually have a Paul K (and Dennis Murphy) design, a ER18 mtm, it has great bass and treble, but are lacking a bit in the mids, and i would guess your designs are a lot better in the mids being threeway.

This might not be the place to ask (and please tell me if i should delete this) but have you heard any of Troels designs (i guess they should sound really good, but the apearance are nowhere close to as nice as yours) and/or the ER18's and are able to compare them with the Bordeux which i can see is your favorite?

Norway - the home of many of my ancestors. Welcome!

Sorry I wasn't clearer in my post. Paul K is actually Paul Kittenger rather than Paul Carmondy. Both are audio friends of mine.

I have not heard any of Troels designs so I can't comment on them. He is well respected though so I'm guessing his designs are top notch. Over the years I've worked on designs with Dennis Murphy and Rick Craig. But they live far away so it's difficult to provide cabinets to develop with. Curt and I became friends well over a decade ago and I was quickly in awe of his crossover skills. He has the ability to squeeze every bit of sound quality the drivers are capable of out of a design. Curt also lives a reasonable distance away from me as well as a life long friend of my wifes so we enjoy making the drive.

I've heard the ER18 MTM several times and its a very nice speaker. I agree with your assessment that the mids while very good can be bettered. I like 3-way designs. They allow each driver to operate in the frequency ranges where they sound the best. I like Revelator, Satori and NE series drivers a lot. They have a very smooth, warm and natural presentation that is very appealing. The Accuton's build on those qualities with incredible detail and depth. Accuton's can be a bit analytical without the correct crossover. Curt nailed it in the Bordeaux's. They have just the right amount of warmth baked in to give them a very natural presentation with exceptional clarity and presence.

It really comes down to your expectations and preferences which you prefer the most.

HTH

Jim

[DML9]

Hi Jim,
Glad to see that the Bordeaux are finding making their public appearance. You wrote above about the bass cabinet, would you do the same for the T/M cabinet? I am curious about the overall dimensions. I like the modular design.

It is very early, but at this time, would these be paired the the Statements II Center or something else for HT?

I was all set to start this fall on the Statements II in the Anthology cabinet until you mentioned the Bordeaux. Hey, what's an extra $400.:W

Blessings,
Mike

[roadrune]

Thanks for a great answer Jim

Quick question; would it require a change to the crossover if a made a closed basscab and a linkwitz transform to lift the low frequenzies, or is that just a bad idea? I really like the tight bass from a closed cab

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jim,
Glad to see that the Bordeaux are finding making their public appearance. You wrote above about the bass cabinet, would you do the same for the T/M cabinet? I am curious about the overall dimensions. I like the modular design.

It is very early, but at this time, would these be paired the the Statements II Center or something else for HT?

I was all set to start this fall on the Statements II in the Anthology cabinet until you mentioned the Bordeaux. Hey, what's an extra $400.:W

Blessings,
Mike

Hi Mike,

Thank you for your interest. I'll try to give an over view of the top cabinet. It's the one I haven't sketched out yet.

The top module measures 11 1/2" W x 13 1/2" T x 15" D. It is constructed with a 1 1/4" thick front baffle and 3/4" everywhere else except for a 1/2" shelf brace that separates the tweeter from the mid woofer. The mid tube is a 6" thick wall PVC tube that is supported at each end by additional 3/4" MDF. The 1/2" shelf brace sits on top of the front and rear MDF PVC positioning plates and ties in with the front, rear and side walls. Yes, the top cabinet is incredibly stiff and solid!

As usual, the inner baffle mid woofer cutout feeding into the PVC tube is rounded over with a 3/4" round over bit. The back baffle on the cabinet is cut out to allow both the tweeter and the mid woofer back wave to exit. The AST2560 comes with a felt back which is left in place and one inch foam is placed on the inside sides only of the top cabinet. The C158 mid woofer has an incredible amount of back wave energy and requires a lot of foam to tune it. Curt ended up using a 4" foam plug flush with the back of the tube plus the normal one inch foam liner in the front of the tube and last but not least, a good sized hand full of polyfill. The foam liner should be held back from the inner front baffle about 2" so the driver can breathe.

Other tips: The rectangular shape of the AST2560 needs to fit as close to perfect as possible. I'm not that perfect. During measurements, Curt determined that the gap I left around the AST2560 was the source of a 5 db deviation in frequency response was the problem. So, I went to the hardware store and bought some 1/8" screen spline that filled the gap and corrected the issue. ops:

I also cut a 3" x 4" section out of one of the corners of the 1/2" shelf brace so I could get my hand down to fish wires through the 1" hole I drilled for the Nuetrik SpeakON 4 pole connector. Be sure to drill 2 holes for the mid woofer wiring through the PVC tube. The front of the 1/2" shelf braced needs to be notched a bit so the AST2560 16 gauge wire will have room to clear. FYI, 16 gauge is the largest that will attach to the AST2560. The connectors are small.

The top module is connected to the bass cabinet with matching SpeakON connectors and 4 wire Canare cable sourced through Bluejeans cable. It was easy to do and I'm very pleased with the ease of connecting/disconnecting the top module. The crossover is mounted on the shelf brace below the bottom woofer. Easy to connect and easy to access if needed.

BTW, disregard the two pieces of MDF attached to bottom/top of the tweeter compartment. We weren't sure whether we'd use the AST2560 in sealed or open back mode so I created that as an option to close the compartment if necessary. We didn't use it sealed.

That's everything I can think of.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks for a great answer Jim

Quick question; would it require a change to the crossover if a made a closed basscab and a linkwitz transform to lift the low frequenzies, or is that just a bad idea? I really like the tight bass from a closed cab

No crossover changes required from ported to sealed but the cabinet would be too large for a sealed configuration and would require Styrofoam or something that could take up volume to bring it in line with the drivers needs. Now, the biggest issue I see is that RS225's only have an F/3 of about 57 Hz. sealed so you've got a heavy lift to EQ them to low 30's with only 7mm of xmax. The ported cabinet is tuned so the bass is extremely tight and clean just as you'd expect from a sealed configuration. I honestly don't think you could hear the diffeence.

HTH

Jim

[roadrune]

With the F3 that high i agree, then a ported will be better, i guess you have done your absolute best with this design which is way beyond my skills and knowledge, thanks for sharing!

[Paul K.]

Thanks for the compliments on my Brioso speakers, Jim. I thought both your speakers and Javad's would make the cut and was surprised neither did. I, too, am waiting so see what the judges' scores were for my entry, and we'll likely be able to see the scores for a number of entries since people tend to post them on PETT.
Paul

At the end of the Over $200 class the Bordeaux's were selected as a fan favorite and brought up to play during the short break while the judges rested their ears before the next class started. I was surrounded with folks asking about them and complimenting their sound quality. Of course I was extremely pleased and had high hopes the judges would agree with the listening audience. Apparently the judges did not. The Bordeaux's were not selected by the judges for any of the top three positions. It was disappointing of course but that's the way it works when you have a 3 judge panel rather than audience ratings. I'm eagerly awaiting the judges feedback to see their comments.

Paul K. won the class with a very nice 2-way based on a Scan Revelator and a TL ceramic dome tweeter. The speaker was very well done and sounded great. Personally, I find the Accuton/AST2560 combination a cut above but that is only my opinion. Paul always has a nice entry and he is a spectacular cabinet builder so congratulations to Paul.

Just a thought about the event. I struggled before deciding to attend MWAF with the fact that I'd drive 10 hours for 3 minutes of music and would have no opportunity to play any of my own cuts which would show off the strengths of the Bordeaux's like all the other DIY events. If the event hadn't coincided with a previously planned trip to visit a brother that now lives in the area, I wouldn't have gone. I hadn't attended MWAF since 2003 and I'll probably not rush back. However, I did win a new DSP plate amp PE just introduced, a T-shirt and a couple free hats. I also saved a buck and half on the only purchase I was interested in making at the tent sale so it wasn't a complete waste of time. 8O

You can probably get feedback on the Bordeaux's sound quality with a separate post on PE's website.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Thanks for the compliments on my Brioso speakers, Jim. I thought both your speakers and Javad's would make the cut and was surprised neither did. I, too, am waiting so see what the judges' scores were for my entry, and we'll likely be able to see the scores for a number of entries since people tend to post them on PETT.
Paul

Hi Paul,

It was good seeing you and a disappointment that you didn't think you'd make it to this years Iowa DIY. Actually, Iowa DIY is still in limbo this year. No one has heard from Doug about facilities so unless MAC jumps in and takes over scheduling the facility, there may not be an Iowa event this year. All that said, unless it falls on the middle two weekend of October, I'll not be able to attend. I'm still on vacation the 1st week and back out in California for my sons wedding the last weekend.

I really enjoyed your Brioso design. ;x( Great sound and superb cabinet work. I always envy your cabinet skills. Top notch as always. Before we started the over $200 class I figured your Brioso and Scott Quicks entry were the top competition. I was very surprised how good Javad's "pro driver" entry sounded. It was easily the best sound I've heard out of a speaker with pro drivers. Those were the entries that stood out to me. The rest were all very good but none that screamed "wow", I didn't see that coming.

I hope none of my comments about the event came across as sour grapes, they were not meant that way. After hosting two events and attending dozens over the last 15 years, I've developed some strong opinions of how events should be run and scored. MWAF was very well run and efficient but I didn't and still don't feel that 3 minutes of music and 3 judges is an accurate evaluation of a speakers sound quality. With 10 minutes of music its hard to do much more than get an overall sense of the speaker and/or driver sound quality, let along just 3 minutes. Of course, this is all just my opinion and obviously not everyone agrees with me, but that's OK too.

I may try to make it to Wolf's event one of these years. His event runs early enough in the year that I'm always busy and never ready to enter my latest design so I've never been able to attend. Maybe next year....

Jim

[Paul K.]

Jim,
Regarding InDIYana, it's actually 2 events in 1. There is a head-to-head competition event, but the entries have to be built to comply strictly with whatever scheme is arrived at, mostly determined by Ben. And, the winner is determined by all attendees voting, with the only prize being self satisfaction. So, you can't necessarily just bring your latest build and enter the competition. The other part is simply "show and tell" for demonstrating your latest build using either 5 minutes of house tracks and 5 minutes of your tracks, or just 10 minutes of house tracks. No prizes or voting for this part.

Regarding MWAF, there are always comments about it both negative and positive every year, and I have made both over time. Adding a couple more minutes of music would be better, and is entirely doable within the time constraints PE wants (on Saturday primarily). OTOH, even 5 minutes of music is not truly enough but there are limits to what can be accomplished in the time allotted by PE (and it is their event). I find the judging setup satisfactory, and don't forget there were two ties this year after the judges' scored that were broken by our peer votes.

It was good to see you and hear your latest gem.
Paul

Hi Paul,

It was good seeing you and a disappointment that you didn't think you'd make it to this years Iowa DIY. Actually, Iowa DIY is still in limbo this year. No one has heard from Doug about facilities so unless MAC jumps in and takes over scheduling the facility, there may not be an Iowa event this year. All that said, unless it falls on the middle two weekend of October, I'll not be able to attend. I'm still on vacation the 1st week and back out in California for my sons wedding the last weekend.

I really enjoyed your Brioso design. ;x( Great sound and superb cabinet work. I always envy your cabinet skills. Top notch as always. Before we started the over $200 class I figured your Brioso and Scott Quicks entry were the top competition. I was very surprised how good Javad's "pro driver" entry sounded. It was easily the best sound I've heard out of a speaker with pro drivers. Those were the entries that stood out to me. The rest were all very good but none that screamed "wow", I didn't see that coming.

I hope none of my comments about the event came across as sour grapes, they were not meant that way. After hosting two events and attending dozens over the last 15 years, I've developed some strong opinions of how events should be run and scored. MWAF was very well run and efficient but I didn't and still don't feel that 3 minutes of music and 3 judges is an accurate evaluation of a speakers sound quality.

I may try to make it to Wolf's event one of these years. His event runs early enough in the year that I'm always busy and never ready to enter my latest design so I've never been able to attend. Maybe next year....

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,
Regarding InDIYana, it's actually 2 events in 1. There is a head-to-head competition event, but the entries have to be built to comply strictly with whatever scheme is arrived at, mostly determined by Ben. And, the winner is determined by all attendees voting, with the only prize being self satisfaction. So, you can't necessarily just bring your latest build and enter the competition. The other part is simply "show and tell" for demonstrating your latest build using either 5 minutes of house tracks and 5 minutes of your tracks, or just 10 minutes of house tracks. No prizes or voting for this part.

Regarding MWAF, there are always comments about it both negative and positive every year, and I have made both over time. Adding a couple more minutes of music would be better, and is entirely doable within the time constraints PE wants (on Saturday primarily). OTOH, even 5 minutes of music is not truly enough but there are limits to what can be accomplished in the time allotted by PE (and it is their event). I find the judging setup satisfactory, and don't forget there were two ties this year after the judges' scored that were broken by our peer votes.

It was good to see you and hear your latest gem.
Paul

Hi Paul,

Thank you for the clarification of the Indy event. I didn't know the competition and feedback was only for the special class Ben comes up with each year. I have no idea what next year will bring. My wife is retiring this year so we'll have much more flexibility travel wise but she has 7 weeks of vacation so that was never really an issue. My next project will be a Finalist size monitor with a Raal 64-10 (OEM) ribbon and a RS225 woofer with a yet to be decided mid, open back of course, that'll have to reach high enough to cross to the Raal. This will be a travel speaker for a small system I'm putting together in anticipation of escaping the Iowa winter months someplace much warmer.

Thanks again for the info!

Jim

[Paul K.]

You may not remember or even heard it at MWAF, but the entry into the over-$200 category by Bill S (4thtry) was the winner of the formal competition last April at InDIYana. His stand-mount speaker was the one with all the plumbing hanging off the back and the total driver costs for the pair exceeded $200 by a small amount and forced them into this category.
Paul

Hi Paul,

Thank you for the clarification of the Indy event. I didn't know the competition and feedback was only for the special class Ben comes up with each year. I have no idea what next year will bring. My wife is retiring this year so we'll have much more flexibility travel wise but she has 7 weeks of vacation so that was never really an issue. My next project will be a Finalist size monitor with a Raal 64-10 (OEM) ribbon and a RS225 woofer with a yet to be decided mid, open back of course, that'll have to reach high enough to cross to the Raal. This will be a travel speaker for a small system I'm putting together in anticipation of escaping the Iowa winter months someplace much warmer.

Thanks again for the info!

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

You may not remember or even heard it at MWAF, but the entry into the over-$200 category by Bill S (4thtry) was the winner of the formal competition last April at InDIYana. His stand-mount speaker was the one with all the plumbing hanging off the back and the total driver costs for the pair exceeded $200 by a small amount and forced them into this category.
Paul

Hi Paul,

Bill and I have gotten to be friends through the various DIY events we both attend. Photography is another hobby I can't afford. :roll: However, I'm a snap shooter and Bill is an artist. He's a tireless photographer at the events and the source of all the photos on the MAC website.

Anyway, I've heard his plumbers delight a couple different times and am always amazed at how good they sound and how much sound comes out of that little cabinet. Bill also had a really nice sounding Satori transmission line at Dakota DIY. Great sounding designs. Yes, I did listen to all of the entries in the over $200 class closely. All 3 minutes of each one.

Jim

[fish fingers]

My next project will be a Finalist size monitor with a Raal 64-10 (OEM) ribbon and a RS225 woofer with a yet to be decided mid, open back of course, that'll have to reach high enough to cross to the Raal.

Jim

I know you really like the Dayton RS but have you seen SB's white cone 'ceramic' range? Not sure when they hit Madisound but can imagine a beautiful looking compact 3 way build with a RAAL or Viawave



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[JonMarsh]

Cool project, Jim! Once you go Accuton on the midrange (with the right driver- so many to chose from, and there are significant audible and measurable differences- unfortunately, also price differences!) it's hard to go back to anything else, IME. And this project looks to be a very nice value proposition, as typical for you guys! :T

[Rick Craig]

Sorry I couldn't make it to the MWAF this year and see you Jim! My wife and I were planning a trip to Europe this fall to celebrate our 25th anniversary (belated, 2016 was the true year). The couple we were going with had a change of plans so we decided on a cruise to Alaska. My wife's work schedule only left July 16-23 so I missed the MWAF.

Lots of nice cabinetry - including those by you and Paul. I attended in 2015 for the first time and also last year. It's amazing to see how much has changed over the years as the design tools have become more affordable. With the number of people attending and limited time for each design that makes it really difficult to compare different speakers, especially in a room that's not even close to a typical home listening environment. Add sitting several feet away, possibly way off-axis horizontally, listening to short tracks of possibly unfamiliar and / or poorly recorded music - it's a crapshoot at best.

[tktran]

Hi Jim,

Congratulations on the completion of the new project. As the owner of a pair of Statement II speakers, I'm certain your new baby is a fine sounding speaker.

I must admit I look the look of the slim WMTMW format. And the wave launch, the way it fills the room with music. I have 400/4ohm mono blocs
behind them.

Can you tell us more about the C158 driver? Which model exactly? And how did come to the decision to choose this driver?

[Jim Holtz]

I know you really like the Dayton RS but have you seen SB's white cone 'ceramic' range? Not sure when they hit Madisound but can imagine a beautiful looking compact 3 way build with a RAAL or Viawave



Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

I'm a fan of SB drivers and I've looked at the new ceramic cone series. I've not modeled it or given serious consideration to them since I'm happy with the performance and cost of the RS225's. They only require a 35 liter volume per driver and extend to 32 Hz. with low distortion. It's really hard to find comparable performance without spending several times the price.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Cool project, Jim! Once you go Accuton on the midrange (with the right driver- so many to chose from, and there are significant audible and measurable differences- unfortunately, also price differences!) it's hard to go back to anything else, IME. And this project looks to be a very nice value proposition, as typical for you guys! :T

Hi Jon,

Thank you! The end result of the Bordeaux project has exceeded my expectations.

I had some reservations about the C158's since they were new and Accuton's can be a bit on the analytical side if the crossover isn't finely tuned. Curt and I discussed this at length before jumping in. Another reason we went with the C158's was that they are part of Accuton's new technology with a new motor design.

From Accuton's website;
"The Accuton C158 is a new driver based on Accuton’s latest hybrid system with both a ferrite and neodymium magnet, working in cooperation to achieve linearized BL(x) - and Inductance(x)-curves. This will guarantee a clear and undistorted midrange quality even at high bass loads."

Since this was a 3-way, bass capability wasn't important but mid-range was. It also has a significant breakup at about 4K that needs dealt with along with careful tweeter selection to let it operate in the band that it performs best. Curt did a superb job, as usual, on the crossover. This is the most detailed driver I've ever used but its never analytical. Depth is impressive. All my opinions of course. I'll also add that I'm truly impressed with the AC AST2560. The most accurate tweeter I've heard.

Here's a distortion graph at 8 volts. Curt tests low and high to see how they perform.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Sorry I couldn't make it to the MWAF this year and see you Jim! My wife and I were planning a trip to Europe this fall to celebrate our 25th anniversary (belated, 2016 was the true year). The couple we were going with had a change of plans so we decided on a cruise to Alaska. My wife's work schedule only left July 16-23 so I missed the MWAF.

Lots of nice cabinetry - including those by you and Paul. I attended in 2015 for the first time and also last year. It's amazing to see how much has changed over the years as the design tools have become more affordable. With the number of people attending and limited time for each design that makes it really difficult to compare different speakers, especially in a room that's not even close to a typical home listening environment. Add sitting several feet away, possibly way off-axis horizontally, listening to short tracks of possibly unfamiliar and / or poorly recorded music - it's a crapshoot at best.

Hi Rick,

Its great to hear from you. It's been a very long time since our paths crossed. You're trip is ironic since my wife and I were also married 25 years in 2016 and decided to put off the "big trip" until she retired. Europe and Scandinavia was our prime destination. Then, my son announced he's getting married this fall in Long Beach and we made plans with two other couples to spend some time in California wine country. September/October will be very busy for us!

Your thoughts exactly mirror mine regarding the MWAF. It was nice to see everyone I knew and to make friends with others, but the listening portion of the event was difficult at best with only 3 minutes of music. If it hadn't coincided with a planned family visit, I'd not have attended. I much prefer the DIY format that every ones been successfully using for the last 15 years. I probably should have kept my mouth shut but, Matt asked for feedback so I decided to oblige. :W

Since my wife will be retired and I'm planning on downsizing my speaker building I'd like to attend some of the DIY events I haven't made in past years. We'll see how that works out. I hope to see you at one of the events!

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jim,

Congratulations on the completion of the new project. As the owner of a pair of Statement II speakers, I'm certain your new baby is a fine sounding speaker.

I must admit I look the look of the slim WMTMW format. And the wave launch, the way it fills the room with music. I have 400/4ohm mono blocs
behind them.

Can you tell us more about the C158 driver? Which model exactly? And how did come to the decision to choose this driver?

Thank you for the kind words and I'm very pleased you're enjoying the Statements II's. They're a hard act to follow!

Take a look at my response to Jon a couple posts up for info on the C158's. It's a new driver from Accuton with a much improved motor design compared to older Accuton drivers.

The sonic differences between the Bordeaux's and Statements II are in mid range detail and depth with more accurate highs. Are they big differences? Nope, but they are noticeable if you're an audiophile and enjoy critical listening. I will say, theNE123's we used in the Statements II's are a superb driver, IMHO and have a very "real" natural sound on vocals that is enjoyable. The C158's are neck and neck in this regard but pull ahead slightly in presence and additional detail/depth is stunning, all my opinion of course. I've been a hard core ribbon fan for years but the AST2560 has really caught my fancy. It'll cross reasonably low and has superb sound quality.

I also wanted a smaller cabinet design that didn't give up anything in dynamics to the Statements II's. The Bordeaux design fits my goals and I'm really enjoying them.

HTH

Jim

[Matt M]

I was wondering myself which Accuton driver was used here. From what you say I gather it is the C158-8-085, right? Which appears to be the better choice as opposed to the (not-so-great THD in the midrange) C158-6-851 .

Anyway, holding my breath for the write-up. Great & interesting choice of drivers. :T

-Matt