When is HDTV Not HDTV? Much more often than you think...

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15259

    When is HDTV Not HDTV? Much more often than you think...

    One of the things I've noticed looking at a lot of name brand HDTVs in stores from CostCo to Best Buy is that the overal resolution I see is no where similar to what I get at home, often even with SD material. In the latter case, it looks like scaling artifact and MPEG issues, but not the kinds I'm used to seeing from an HTPC or some DVD players.

    Well, Gary Merson shed a lot of light on that in the March issue of "Home Theater" magazine, with an article titled "Are you getting all the HDTV resolution you expected? I can't find it yet at their online site, though I hope it will show up their evenutally.

    In a nutshell, the problem is that a LOT of displays have front end processing chips that don't handle 1080i correctly- many of them treat it as 540P, and do a simple line doubling of a 540P frame, then downscale as necessary to to hit the panel resolution of 720 or 768. This is called Bobbing de-interlacing, and it wreaks havoc with the vertical resolution of the image as you can imagine.

    Now, you might expect some el cheapo off brand chinese display at Wally World to suffer from this, but the problem is much more endemic than that. Out of 54 name brand displays Gary Merson recently tested, 26 failed. These included Mitsubishi DLP and LCD RPTVs, Panasonic LCD RPTVs, Philips LCD FPTVs, Philips Plasma panels, RCA DLP RPTVs, Samsung DLP RPTVs, Sharp LCD FPs, and some Sony LCD RPTV models. The newest generations of scaler chips for some of these TV's correct this problem, but good luck getting info from the manufacturer with what they use.


    Caveat emptor...
    Last edited by JonMarsh; 27 April 2006, 21:32 Thursday.
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  • gianni
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2002
    • 524

    #2
    This has the makings of a good sticky. Would be nice if we could generate a list of TV's which handle this properly.

    Comment

    • peterS
      Super Senior Member
      • Dec 2005
      • 1038

      #3
      there definitly is a problem...

      Comment

      • aud19
        Twin Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2003
        • 16706

        #4
        Originally posted by gianni
        This has the makings of a good sticky. Would be nice if we could generate a list of TV's which handle this properly.
        It listed the sets in a table accompanying the article. Hopefully they'll post it on their web page soon.
        Jason

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15259

          #5
          I have the info, but it would probably be a copyright issue to post it here. :demon:


          I use ZINIO to get most of my magazines, so I don't have stacks sitting around anymore...
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          • David Meek
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 8938

            #6
            Originally posted by gianni
            This has the makings of a good sticky. Would be nice if we could generate a list of TV's which handle this properly.
            I agree. This thread is now "stuck".
            .

            David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15259

              #7
              I'll put together something to post with the details- with attribution.

              BTW, Mal Misbehaves very nicely on the Serentiy HD-DVD!

              ~Jon
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              • gianni
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2002
                • 524

                #8
                Originally posted by David Meek
                I agree. This thread is now "stuck".
                Thanks David.

                Comment

                • David Meek
                  Moderator Emeritus
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 8938

                  #9
                  Originally posted by JonMarsh
                  I'll put together something to post with the details- with attribution.

                  BTW, Mal Misbehaves very nicely on the Serentiy HD-DVD!

                  ~Jon
                  Those pics that Evil Twin posted do look awesome!

                  My next big purchase is most likely a new HD-display so this thread is one I'll definitely be involved with. Thanks Jon.
                  .

                  David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                  Comment

                  • pikers
                    Junior Member
                    • May 2006
                    • 22

                    #10
                    Originally posted by JonMarsh
                    One of the things I've noticed looking at a lot of name brand HDTVs in stores from CostCo to Best Buy is that the overal resolution I see is no where similar to what I get at home, often even with SD material. In the latter case, it looks like scaling artifact and MPEG issues, but not the kinds I'm used to seeing from an HTPC or some DVD players.

                    Well, Gary Merson shed a lot of light on that in the March issue of "Home Theater" magazine, with an article titled "Are you getting all the HDTV resolution you expected? I can't find it yet at their online site, though I hope it will show up their evenutally.

                    In a nutshell, the problem is that a LOT of displays have front end processing chips that don't handle 1080i correctly- many of them treat it as 540P, and do a simple line doubling of a 540P frame, then downscale as necessary to to hit the panel resolution of 720 or 768. This is called Bobbing de-interlacing, and it wreaks havoc with the vertical resolution of the image as you can imagine.

                    Now, you might expect some el cheapo off brand chinese display at Wally World to suffer from this, but the problem is much more endemic than that. Out of 54 name brand displays Gary Merson recently tested, 26 failed. These included Mitsubishi DLP and LCD RPTVs, Panasonic LCD RPTVs, Philips LCD FPTVs, Philips Plasma panels, RCA DLP RPTVs, Samsung DLP RPTVs, Sharp LCD FPs, and some Sony LCD RPTV models. The newest generations of scaler chips for some of these TV's correct this problem, but good luck getting info from the manufacturer with what they use.


                    Caveat emptor...
                    Two things:

                    1. "Failing" a test only involving test patterns is disingenuous and a waste of time. We don't watch those, so who cares?
                    2. 720p is a high-definition resolution.

                    This is typical of internet tabloid journalism. The issue is how good the picture is. Plus, when MOST important TV brands do this, one would suspect that it might be the best way to generate an image. So often on these forums one will read about "where to get the best price", but clearly people concerned about info like the above want an increase in cost.

                    If you want a 1:1 resolution, purchase a scaler and go to work.

                    Comment

                    • David Meek
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 8938

                      #11
                      Piker, cool it. You need to check out the bona fides of people before you make blanket statements. You imply a lot with your "disingenuous" comment, and I eagerly await your clarification. Also, your comment about "people concerned about info like the above want an increase in cost" is wrong for the poster concerned. Period. Again, cool it.

                      David
                      HTG Administrator
                      .

                      David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                      Comment

                      • peterS
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Dec 2005
                        • 1038

                        #12
                        Originally posted by pikers
                        Two things:

                        1. "Failing" a test only involving test patterns is disingenuous and a waste of time. We don't watch those, so who cares?
                        2. 720p is a high-definition resolution.

                        This is typical of internet tabloid journalism. The issue is how good the picture is. Plus, when MOST important TV brands do this, one would suspect that it might be the best way to generate an image. So often on these forums one will read about "where to get the best price", but clearly people concerned about info like the above want an increase in cost.

                        If you want a 1:1 resolution, purchase a scaler and go to work.
                        :roll:
                        all it takes is a look at a tube tv to realize how far these hd sets have left to go.... probably a rep anyways as i cant imagine anyone would follow such logic w/o having an agenda :blah:

                        Comment

                        • ThomasW
                          Moderator Emeritus
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 10934

                          #13
                          Tuesday's going to be an interesting day on this thread.

                          And someone's going to learn why the adage about remaining silent and thought a fool, is preferable to opening one's mouth and removing all doubt..... :wink:

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                          Comment

                          • LEVESQUE
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2002
                            • 344

                            #14
                            JonMarsh is totally right.

                            Alot of people are disappointed by the HD-DVD players not because of the players, but because of the internal scalers of the displays associated with them that are not up to the task.

                            Almost all the 720p projectors and displays on the market, and alot of CRT TVS are not able to deal with a 1080i signals and show the full resolution. They downscale 1080i to 540p then scale to 720p. When doing Bob, the displays are performing alot of interpolations and losing vertical resolution.

                            It's not because a display can accept 1080i or 1080p that it can show all that resolution, and sometimes it's far from it.

                            With an HD-DVD player, we were able to compare a Panasonic AE900 with a Sony Ruby paired with a Gennum VXP scaler. No comparison. Wow. What a difference on a 110" dia screen.

                            The Panasonic is downscaling the HD signal then scaling, but the Ruby is using the 1080p signal (de-interlaced properly by the Gennum VXP scaler) fully (1:1).
                            To spend more $$$ on electronics without first addressing room acoustics is fruitless IMO.

                            Comment

                            • aud19
                              Twin Moderator Emeritus
                              • Aug 2003
                              • 16706

                              #15
                              Originally posted by pikers
                              Two things:

                              1. "Failing" a test only involving test patterns is disingenuous and a waste of time. We don't watch those, so who cares?
                              2. 720p is a high-definition resolution.

                              This is typical of internet tabloid journalism. The issue is how good the picture is. Plus, when MOST important TV brands do this, one would suspect that it might be the best way to generate an image. So often on these forums one will read about "where to get the best price", but clearly people concerned about info like the above want an increase in cost.

                              If you want a 1:1 resolution, purchase a scaler and go to work.
                              Oh dear...... 8O :roll: :cry:
                              Jason

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15259

                                #16
                                Originally posted by pikers
                                Two things:

                                1. "Failing" a test only involving test patterns is disingenuous and a waste of time. We don't watch those, so who cares?
                                2. 720p is a high-definition resolution.

                                This is typical of internet tabloid journalism. The issue is how good the picture is. Plus, when MOST important TV brands do this, one would suspect that it might be the best way to generate an image. So often on these forums one will read about "where to get the best price", but clearly people concerned about info like the above want an increase in cost.

                                If you want a 1:1 resolution, purchase a scaler and go to work.

                                :rofl:



                                This is the funniest post I've seen in months.... I'm almost in tears as I speak.

                                Well, if you bought a TV that had to deinterlace to display your DVD player output, and instead of taking the two 240 line fields in 480i DVD output did field bobbing and converted your effective output to 240P, I think you'd be whistling a little different tune...

                                And that's exactly what about half the HDTV's that Gary Merson tested did with HD class inputs.

                                Now, if you're only watching on a Wally world special TV with limited physical scanning resolution, or you're watching from 4-5 screen widths back, then it doesn't matter- in fact, with the screen angle that reduced, you might as well be watching on a Vido iPod.

                                But for MOST discerning customers of HDTVs, the idea that their effect resolution may be cut in half or more due to combined scaling artifacts (1080i bobbed to 540, then downrezzed again with a double scan picture at 1080 fitted to 720 or 768 ), the real fact of the matter is that they ARE loosing resolution and picture quality.

                                No matter what you personally think about the validity of resolution screens, the reason they were invented and used is that they give an objective and reliable measure of degradation of signal quality from the source to endpoint in the reproduction chain. And HDTV's that don't even reproduce SD DVD test patterns don't qualify as HDTV, regardless of how many pixels are on the display. And they won't make a finely detailed high quality picture, not for SD source or HD source.

                                That's not debateable. So, apart from personal considerations like viewing distance or visual acuity (mine is 20/15 corrected), the rest of us will probably prefer to watch sets that can reproduce true HD sources as accurately as possible. Since the fault likes mostly with the scaler processing chip, not the display itself, this is a particularly bad situation, and one consumers should be aware of.

                                It's mach nicht to me 'cause I use CRT FPTV, no scaler, but for a lot of folks not willing to put up with the setup work of something like CRT and outboard electronics, it's pretty important.
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                                • ThomasW
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 10934

                                  #17
                                  And now people have heard from one of the co-inventors of the HTPC...:wink:

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                                  Comment

                                  • George Bellefontaine
                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                    • Jan 2001
                                    • 7637

                                    #18
                                    Jon is just amazing.
                                    My Homepage!

                                    Comment

                                    • aud19
                                      Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                      • Aug 2003
                                      • 16706

                                      #19
                                      I found, scanned and hosted the list

                                      I brought the article in and scanned it on our MUCH better equipment at work. I've also added the comparison shots of bobbed vs. full resolution from the article. (Keep in mind these are scanned images but I think they still get the point across)



                                      Last edited by aud19; 03 May 2006, 11:49 Wednesday.
                                      Jason

                                      Comment

                                      • gianni
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Nov 2002
                                        • 524

                                        #20
                                        Notably absent are the ever popular Pioneer and Panasonic plasmas. Hopefully we'll have some answers on these and others soon. Even so, great information.

                                        Comment

                                        • David Meek
                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 8938

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Thomas
                                          Tuesday's going to be an interesting day on this thread.

                                          And someone's going to learn why the adage about remaining silent and thought a fool, is preferable to opening one's mouth and removing all doubt..... :wink:
                                          I think we had a troll.
                                          .

                                          David - Trigger-happy HTGuide Admin

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15259

                                            #22
                                            Thanks, Jason, I was getting ready to do that tonight, and I'm pleased you beat me to it!

                                            :B
                                            the AudioWorx
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                                            • aud19
                                              Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                              • Aug 2003
                                              • 16706

                                              #23
                                              No worries Jon :T
                                              Jason

                                              Comment

                                              • pikers
                                                Junior Member
                                                • May 2006
                                                • 22

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by David Meek
                                                I think we had a troll.

                                                I'm sure those who poke around on the internet may actually want to listen to someone in the industry, and no I won't post a resume.

                                                My point was simply this: If people read these articles about how some of these sets can't pass test patterns without addressing real-world images, I can't be alone in assuming that I'm the only one that balls up those "tests" and chucks 'em into the round file.

                                                If anyone wants to look at full-motion video images on a good 1080p set and deny that they look great, well, I would suspect that they take those sky-is-falling articles a little to heart. Why? The sets that employ wobulation (for example) rely on the ease at which the human eye is fooled, using actual MOVING images we like to watch. When we bypass that by popping in a test field, when wobulation CAN'T work, I really have to wonder why the test took place to begin with, when the results were highly predictable.

                                                Am I denying the validity or accuracy of the tests? No, simply questioning the relevance, given our typical viewing habits.

                                                Comment

                                                • aud19
                                                  Twin Moderator Emeritus
                                                  • Aug 2003
                                                  • 16706

                                                  #25
                                                  Pikers, I think the example I posted above shows that it makes a difference with more than just test patterns. There's real and noticeable resolution being lost in this case and that does matter IMO.
                                                  Jason

                                                  Comment

                                                  • pikers
                                                    Junior Member
                                                    • May 2006
                                                    • 22

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by aud19
                                                    Pikers, I think the example I posted above shows that it makes a difference with more than just test patterns. There's real and noticeable resolution being lost in this case and that does matter IMO.
                                                    A still frame of an eyeball?

                                                    I have a question (and apologies in advance for sounding augumentative) but if we place a TV that passes the test, and one that fails, would we be able to see the difference without prior knowledge of said test?

                                                    It has been accepted in this debate on other forums (and for those with common sense) that resolution is only part of the equation. I wonder why some choose to indict an entire generation of technology over ONE specification?

                                                    My fave is the HP DLP vs the Sony SXRD in Sound and Vision. You will notice one uses wobulation and one does not. What was the major fault found? The magenta tone to white and light blue areas on the SXRD, not a perceivable resolution loss on the DLP.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • peterS
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Dec 2005
                                                      • 1038

                                                      #27
                                                      from what i have seen those results do not surprise me

                                                      Comment

                                                      • pikers
                                                        Junior Member
                                                        • May 2006
                                                        • 22

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by peterS
                                                        from what i have seen those results do not surprise me
                                                        That's an interesting comment.

                                                        Based on what you saw, without prior knowledge of the test, you intuitively knew you weren't getting 1080p?

                                                        This is the thrust of my posts. If this is indeed true, then it's significant. This is the relevant data IMO, not a test pattern. The opinions of people "in the field" that think they see problems (and can't put a finger on what it is) needs to be heard.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • peterS
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Dec 2005
                                                          • 1038

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by pikers
                                                          That's an interesting comment.

                                                          Based on what you saw, without prior knowledge of the test, you intuitively knew you weren't getting 1080p?

                                                          This is the thrust of my posts. If this is indeed true, then it's significant. This is the relevant data IMO, not a test pattern. The opinions of people "in the field" that think they see problems (and can't put a finger on what it is) needs to be heard.
                                                          our source is 1080i (logical choice would be 720p as 98% of our sets are such)
                                                          it does not surprise me one bit as the findings fall in line with my overall impressions

                                                          some of the worst tvs i have seen fail the test:
                                                          ie mitsubishi, panasonic lcd rear projection
                                                          certain philips and jvc tvs

                                                          logically ones i would buy pass

                                                          as for the dlp's i have never been a fan, and do not believe they are accurate enough to even convey such a processing flaw. i always held the unpopular belief that the samsungs were not very good and recommended the sony a10 over it, but always acknowledge that everyones eyes are different so i fully understand that some will prefer the dlp


                                                          the average person could not notice the difference in a real life scenario and tends to be blinded by what they have read or been told rather than what they see. but anyone who values performance and is confident deciding for themselves can- whether it take a test image for immediate comparisons or months and months of looking at the same screens to truly decide for oneself which preform the best.
                                                          which for the record are the sony xbr lcd's and the pioneer plasma 50" imo
                                                          throw in how horrible these tv's look on analogue its amazing anyone buys these as that is what the average consumer uses them for

                                                          on the positive side of things the new offerings in the lcd flatpannels by all manufacturers show notable performance improvements while simultaneously reducing cost

                                                          Comment

                                                          • pikers
                                                            Junior Member
                                                            • May 2006
                                                            • 22

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by peterS
                                                            some of the worst tvs i have seen fail the test:
                                                            ie mitsubishi, panasonic lcd rear projection
                                                            certain philips and jvc tvs
                                                            Anything LCD rear-pro deserves to be ignored IMO, so I hear you there.

                                                            as for the dlp's i have never been a fan, and do not believe they are accurate enough to even convey such a processing flaw. i always held the unpopular belief that the samsungs were not very good and recommended the sony a10 over it, but always acknowledge that everyones eyes are different so i fully understand that some will prefer the dlp
                                                            Sammies are widely recognized by techs as some of the worst OOB, and some of the best post-calibration. Of course, most things look good after the work-over


                                                            the average person could not notice the difference in a real life scenario and tends to be blinded by what they have read or been told rather than what they see.
                                                            Works the other way too. One major thing thats blinds people is remorse from owning a 720p set while the 1080p rolls out to rave reviews.

                                                            but anyone who values performance and is confident deciding for themselves can- whether it take a test image for immediate comparisons or months and months of looking at the same screens to truly decide for oneself which preform the best.
                                                            My point exactly. This is why you see most manufacturers only forefronting LCD rear-pro as a price-point enabler. None of these companies (Sony the notable exception, precisely because everyone else ISN'T forcing it). Everyone else endorses DLP, 1080p being the new kid. As with all things new, it requires development.

                                                            which for the record are the sony xbr lcd's and the pioneer plasma 50" imo
                                                            Putting the Sonys and Elites in the same category is confusing, because they certainly do not play on the same field.


                                                            throw in how horrible these tv's look on analogue its amazing anyone buys these as that is what the average consumer uses them for
                                                            Making something out of nothing is always difficult (for a processor, not a chat-room dweller :B ). The problem is the incoming resolution, not the set. Some do better than others, but TBH this isn't why these sets are built to begin with. Race cars are not intended to be driven on the street.

                                                            on the positive side of things the new offerings in the lcd flatpannels by all manufacturers show notable performance improvements while simultaneously reducing cost
                                                            ...Until you get beyond 45"; then the cost is disproportionate to plasma. But, I do see your point.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Owen Bartley
                                                              Member
                                                              • Sep 2005
                                                              • 42

                                                              #31
                                                              Great, now I have one more thing to worry about when looking for a new TV. But what I'd really like to know is what to look for that will tell the consumer how a display handles scaling? It will be tough to tell on the showroom floor, since we really have no idea what signal the sets are being fed, how many times they've been split, etc. Is there some kind of technical spec or online resource that explains how sets handle scaling? Is there a particular spec to look for?

                                                              I guess part 2 of my question is what about the scalers in the source material... most HD players would have them right? So is this an issue that mostly concerns television broadcast (I don't know if any HD Cable or sat boxes scale or not)? What about OTA HD reception?
                                                              - OJ -

                                                              My HT and DIY Tempest page
                                                              My DVDs

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Raptor550
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • May 2007
                                                                • 132

                                                                #32
                                                                I agree with both Jon and Pikers.
                                                                Originally posted by pikers
                                                                That's an interesting comment.

                                                                Based on what you saw, without prior knowledge of the test, you intuitively knew you weren't getting 1080p?

                                                                This is the thrust of my posts. If this is indeed true, then it's significant. This is the relevant data IMO, not a test pattern. The opinions of people "in the field" that think they see problems (and can't put a finger on what it is) needs to be heard.
                                                                I see what your saying. But people should be honest in how they advertise. I am an artist and do 3D animation and I can always tell when theres something funky going on with a TV. that said...
                                                                Originally posted by Owen Bartley
                                                                Great, now I have one more thing to worry about when looking for a new TV. But what I'd really like to know is what to look for that will tell the consumer how a display handles scaling? It will be tough to tell on the showroom floor, since we really have no idea what signal the sets are being fed, how many times they've been split, etc. Is there some kind of technical spec or online resource that explains how sets handle scaling? Is there a particular spec to look for?
                                                                ...Most people shouldn't care as much as they do about this. you should be asking "does the picture look good to you?", if so, buy it, you wont miss anything. That kind of detail is stuff you should be concerned with if your using your screen as
                                                                1. a computer monitor where text is abundant, desktop space is a necessity, and 3d games actually produce that high of a resolution.
                                                                2. you are using your monitor as a still picture display. -which is unwise with plasmas or projectors anyways because you don't want to run down its screen life that quickly.
                                                                3. you paid too much for your screen because lack of truth in advertising and you wanted bragging rights.

                                                                Even *some* 720i's has a beautiful picture in motion. As an animator one thing I learn is so long as things are moving you can get away with a TON of stuff. and with film things are always moving because of film grain which is always their. Prices you will find will be dropping faster than normal this year and beginning 2008 as new tech rolls out. If all you are doing is watching movies Id suggested take advantage of the lower price on the inferior tech -its not bad.

                                                                I find that scaling is often most visible because of other issues besides resolution.
                                                                Check out my cabinet designs. *Updated 6/16/07*



                                                                See my finished Dayton/Seas Project

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Hank
                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                  • Jul 2002
                                                                  • 1345

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Just stumbled upon this thread - interesting. Think of the parallel to audio. We look at the specs and tend to want to finalize a buying decision by auditioning those few products with the best specs (and reviews - c'mon, admit it) to make a final choice.
                                                                  With displays, we do the same, don't we? We read specs (and look at test patterns in reviews), then audition that narrowed field with the best specs. Otherwise, as with audio gear, there wouldn't be enough hours in the day to "look" and "listen" to every model of every manufacturer.
                                                                  I've had my new (August build) Samsung HL-T6187S DLP with LED illumination RPTV for three weeks and it is the best looking display I've seen (yes, in person). I'm reading on AV Science forum that when ISF'd, it can be fantastic. As good as it is now, I'm in no hurry to ISF - we'll see. I had a Sammy CRT RPTV that I had ISF'd and the difference was worth the money then (3 years ago).
                                                                  Enough rambling. Read reviews, owners' comments on AVS, go to showrooms, turn the contrast and sharpness down and watch - pick what your eyes like, just as you would pick audio gear that your ears like, then enjoy and don't look back.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • madmac
                                                                    Moderator Emeritus
                                                                    • Aug 2010
                                                                    • 3122

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Wow......."wobulation"......I like that word.....VERY catchy !!. They should bring that word into Home audio as well. Imagine boasting and saying that your speakers contain 'wobulation' technology !! Coooool !!.

                                                                    There are a lot of crappy TV's out there. I think in a lot of cases it's the source and tv setup more than the set itself but I'm sure some are better than others. I have the Sony SXRD LcOs RPTV 60" (which is in the list above as passing the test) and I love it. It's picture is optimized and it's HD over the air performance is stunning!. I'm in no rush to get a new set anytime soon.
                                                                    Dan Madden :T

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Lex
                                                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                                                      • Apr 2001
                                                                      • 27461

                                                                      #35
                                                                      late to the party, but you know, I noticed these resolution issues with a Panasonic in the store this spring. I wound up getting a Samsnug Plasma. I personally liked theprice point, for the 59" set, and the "true HD" appearance of it blew the Panny away. I heard it was a stablization chip that the samsung has, that the panny doesn't. Thus the problems.
                                                                      Doug
                                                                      "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • madmac
                                                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                                                        • Aug 2010
                                                                        • 3122

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Lex
                                                                        late to the party, but you know, I noticed these resolution issues with a Panasonic in the store this spring. I wound up getting a Samsnug Plasma. I personally liked theprice point, for the 59" set, and the "true HD" appearance of it blew the Panny away. I heard it was a stablization chip that the samsung has, that the panny doesn't. Thus the problems.

                                                                        I have NEVER been a fan of Panasonic TV's of any kind......even the CRT ones has resolution issues. You made a good choice with the Samsung in my opinion. :T
                                                                        Dan Madden :T

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Chris D
                                                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                                                          • Dec 2000
                                                                          • 16877

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Yeah, interesting enough, Samsungs are my favorites for flat-panel, but I have absolutely LOVED my Panasonic HT projectors I've had.
                                                                          CHRIS

                                                                          Well, we're safe for now. Thank goodness we're in a bowling alley.
                                                                          - Pleasantville

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Lex
                                                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                                                            • Apr 2001
                                                                            • 27461

                                                                            #38
                                                                            1 year after getting my Samsung 59" Plasma 1080p, the image is sharp as ever, especially sharp with my new blu-ray player, not a high end by any means, but it more than gets the job done with today's displays like my Samsung.

                                                                            I thought this thread needed a little push.

                                                                            Chris, I went the Sanyo route for projectors, and have been reasonably satisfied. But I still long for a true HD projector someday that makes me think I am watching a direct view flat panel. I am not sure that will ever happen at my price points.

                                                                            Doug
                                                                            Doug
                                                                            "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Ovation
                                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                                              • Sep 2004
                                                                              • 2202

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by Lex
                                                                              1 year after getting my Samsung 59" Plasma 1080p, the image is sharp as ever, especially sharp with my new blu-ray player, not a high end by any means, but it more than gets the job done with today's displays like my Samsung.

                                                                              I thought this thread needed a little push.

                                                                              Chris, I went the Sanyo route for projectors, and have been reasonably satisfied. But I still long for a true HD projector someday that makes me think I am watching a direct view flat panel. I am not sure that will ever happen at my price points.

                                                                              Doug
                                                                              I actually like that my PJ/screen combo does NOT look like a flat panel display. This is especially true whenever I watch a movie (for TV, it matters little to me, as TV is intended primarily for TV displays and not projection). I find the "texture" (for lack of a better word) of my screen makes it look a lot more like watching a film at the cinema (and it isn't the size, in this case, as my screen is quite small by PJ standards--64 inch 16x9). I have a small display (a computer monitor, actually) that I use for watching short bits of TV programming (if I've got a sitcom on my PVR, I don't feel compelled to fire up the projector for 30 mins) and for when I need to navigate DVD-A menus. On occasion, I'll even watch a one-hour HD show on that display. It never looks "wrong" (though it does look small). But for movies (and for this I've compared to large 50+ inch flat panel displays at other people's homes), the glossiness of the screen (in almost all cases--few of my friends own large LCD TVs with a matte screen) takes me right out of the "movie-watching" feeling and reminds me I'm watching TV (nice TV, but TV all the same).

                                                                              Oh well. Good thing we have options.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Lex
                                                                                Moderator Emeritus
                                                                                • Apr 2001
                                                                                • 27461

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Well, I think the optics are less than stellar on my 2K (new) projector. I'd like to have a bit better resolution. It's not BAD, but it could be better. I could see myself enjoying a 70-80" flat panel someday, almost at the expense of FP. But a home theater room with FP wouldn't be bad!
                                                                                Doug
                                                                                "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                                                                                Comment

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