Video about the new PS Audio FR30's was a hoot, but for unusual reasons

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  • theSven
    Master of None
    • Jan 2014
    • 855

    #46
    Originally posted by Steve Manning
    As long as the Hobby version allows me to do what I need to in terms of CAD & CAM I'll stay put, at the moment it's free. I do not need the stuff that comes with the full blown paid version. In general, I don't like subscription based software, since the rates do nothing but go up. The one other option I was looking into as a one time purchase, was Rhino along with a CAM plug in. Not super cheap but in the long run would be the far better deal.
    Everything software is going to subscription these days. Every company wants ARR to show how much money they increase every year to make the investors happy...
    Painter in training

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15261

      #47
      This is clearly one of those design studies for which there could be many a slip twixt the cup and the lip.

      However, wood supplies have been arriving this week and last, and I'm headed out to Woodcraft today for some other items...


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      the AudioWorx
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      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15261

        #48
        Like much of the West this weekend, it's a roast 'em toast 'em day here, but having roads blocked to the rental due to surfacing gave me a good excuse to spend time running over to my Boise Woodcraft (almost an hour away) and seeing if I could stock up on some BB ply.

        The wood working gods were with me, and I was able to buy 6 - 60" x 60" 18mm sheets, having them split down the middle, making almost 30" x 60", just what I wanted. I didn't want the hot weather for unloading, but the deed is done.


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        If all goes as planned, these will be used for inner side panels on the big project, and leftovers for other small test builds in the works, such as the several center channel concepts.
        the AudioWorx
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        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15261

          #49
          Move out activities and lawn care for two houses are dominating my time, but I'm making a bit of progress getting some test cabinets together, by using the Denovo 1 cu ft enclosures from PE as a starting point. The basic plan is to do the LF POC modular and stack up test enclosures. Makes the result easier to build, and much easier to move!

          With the patio furniture set still in boxes in the garage, working here is more like working on a submarine- narrow walking paths, small work spaces. Steve knows about that from his past life.

          And I can sneak in 15 minutes here, 15 minutes there to do a gluing operation bit by bit during the day. Devcon Epoxy, of course, one of my favorites, but can't get it locally at BB stores or Ace Hardware.

          The bottom brace is cut away in the center, to make room for a PR on the back of the cabinet.

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          Here are two cabinets for which the basic assembly is complete- note that at this time, PE only offers this cabinet with panels pre-cut for their 10" reference sub. But guess what, it's a perfect fit for the RSS265PR, so I'll be making my own primary front cabinet baffles, and using the supplied ones on the rear.

          Here's two cabinets with the basic assembly done.

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          I have older ones of these complete with flat front baffles, will see what to do with them later.


          I'm also still looking at minor variations of the PR alignments, and what efforts might be necessary to get the most out of the 8" PuriFi. It's a different beast for them, much more of a "monkey coffin" driver, to the extent that the right total volume seems to be between 170L and 200L. Not as bad as the Satori WO24P (4 drivers would "prefer" 240L) but definitely up there.

          Here's that 160L alignment I'm partial to, using the RSS315PR (12")... works better with more swept Sd.


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          Note, as high as the basic sensitivity is, it might mandate using an MTM arrangement for planar midrange and ribbon tweeter.


          This is one of my favorite configurations for the RSS210HF-4, and manages extended low end in a much more compact enclosure volume. This will be the first large scale POC tested, after looking at an individual driver in cabinet.


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          The move out stuff should be wrapped up by Friday, and I'm looking forward to that!

          I'm also getting in more samples of a pro type driver for midrange duties in a CC and other system configurations. There's plenty to do this summer- with the rise of variants, travel is not looking very attractive. In fact, the husband of my wife's oldest daughter (who is recovering from breast cancer, weakened immune system) just tested positive- got it from work, because of an out of town visitor and not wearing masks in the office. Careless. I have strong feelings stemming from medical knowledge on this topic. Fortunately they have another house (that they just moved out of, which will be rented soon) that he is isolating in. Got my fingers crossed on this one... folks can transmit the virus before their symptoms become an issue.

          Be careful this summer.
          the AudioWorx
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          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • Zvu
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2013
            • 434

            #50
            Interesting

            Tesla; George Carlin;

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15261

              #51
              Originally posted by Zvu
              Thanks for the link- downloaded, and will watch as soon as I have some spare time! hopefully this weekend!
              the AudioWorx
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              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • JonMarsh
                Mad Max Moderator
                • Aug 2000
                • 15261

                #52
                Originally posted by Zvu

                Interesting... strong early music education and music performance background- university education, but not in engineering. Seems to me he was borrowing from my life story quite a bit, though with his own flavor (more classical oriented than rock and roll- I went to the dark side early...).

                Interesting description of his feelings about being in engineering without an engineering degree, considering the attitudes and expectations for an engineering education and profession. Now, imagine doing that in a German company, where "Alles in Ordnung" is not just a basic part of engineering culture, but the entire national outlook... and competing successfully with MS and PhD's for high level engineering contributor positions, equivalent in grade to a VP. One has to have very real and proven technical and business accomplishments to do that. It will be interesting to watch what Chris Bruhaver does over time... he's young yet!

                His past employers are kind of ideal for developing the skill sets and knowledge he's using now- with Adire, and especially with BG.
                the AudioWorx
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                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                Comment

                • Zvu
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2013
                  • 434

                  #53
                  Originally posted by JonMarsh
                  Interesting... strong early music education and music performance background- university education, but not in engineering. Seems to me he was borrowing from my life story quite a bit, though with his own flavor (more classical oriented than rock and roll- I went to the dark side early...).

                  Interesting description of his feelings about being in engineering without an engineering degree, considering the attitudes and expectations for an engineering education and profession. Now, imagine doing that in a German company, where "Alles in Ordnung" is not just a basic part of engineering culture, but the entire national outlook... and competing successfully with MS and PhD's for high level engineering contributor positions, equivalent in grade to a VP. One has to have very real and proven technical and business accomplishments to do that. It will be interesting to watch what Chris Bruhaver does over time... he's young yet!

                  His past employers are kind of ideal for developing the skill sets and knowledge he's using now- with Adire, and especially with BG.
                  Agree on all accounts.

                  Germany is technocratic country which is good in most cases but occasionally tend to push people into molds. Martijn Mensink from Dutch&Dutch (designer of 8C which is arguably the most advanced standmount loudspeaker in existence) has no official education in acoustics or electronics. Apparently you don't need to posses a degree to be a world class loudspeaker designer. It is more of a vision driven multidisciplinary labour so guys with wider spectra of interests seem to have most success. As a fellow countryman of mine used to say - all you need to do is to awake technical curiosity in a child
                  Tesla; George Carlin;

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15261

                    #54
                    Originally posted by Zvu
                    Agree on all accounts.

                    Germany is technocratic country which is good in most cases but occasionally tend to push people into molds. Martijn Mensink from Dutch&Dutch (designer of 8C which is arguably the most advanced standmount loudspeaker in existence) has no official education in acoustics or electronics. Apparently you don't need to posses a degree to be a world class loudspeaker designer. It is more of a vision driven multidisciplinary labour so guys with wider spectra of interests seem to have most success. As a fellow countryman of mine used to say - all you need to do is to awake technical curiosity in a child
                    As one of my better former managers would say, "I'm in violent agreement with you, Zvu!"

                    Curiously, that describes my advantage at my 35 year day job- compared to the other guys, I was a generalist but with a specialist level of knowledge across a very wide spectrum of power semiconductors and power conversion applications- from trench and super junction MOSFETs to MPT IGBTs to SiC JFETs and MOSFETs, and many types of power factor correction topologies, and lastly, going deep on resonant topologies and associated magnetics that are difficult to analyze correctly (think LLC) and finding a few researchers and papers that took the right path, and hiring at my own expense a consultant in Europe to write a MatLAB program based on those concepts (discrete time domain analysis, not FHA, first harmonic approximation) based on the 2001 paper by Lazar and Marinelli for Steady State Analysis for LLC resonant converter, (the math was a lot harder and more useful than FHA paper which treats LLC more like a loudspeaker crossover!) and recent papers by Zhiyuan Hu, when he was at Queens University Toronto- I was actually interviewing him for a position at one time, a 30 minute scheduled interview turned into 1-1/2 hours, and we followed up sharing files. I still have ideas for things to do for simplified LLC design tools based on some of his work. He ended up taking a position at Apple, after leaving TI. Good choice on his part.
                    the AudioWorx
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                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15261

                      #55
                      Oh, and BTW, I have boxes of drivers and ideas for making an 8C like speaker, quite a bit larger, but without the drawbacks of their version, and possibly some improvements. No wireless digital, and likely a minimum phase midrange to HF crossover based on the Harsch concept. I agree with your assessment of Martijn Mensink, very original thinker.
                      the AudioWorx
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                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • dwk
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2005
                        • 251

                        #56
                        Originally posted by JonMarsh
                        Queens University Toronto
                        Ha! Something I can correct Jon on! (albeit a trivial detail) Queen's University is in Kingston Ontario, a couple hours east of Toronto. University of Toronto is obviously in Toronto, as is York University. Both UofT and Queen's have good Engineering departments, although Waterloo is arguably better than either in some respects. (source: I attended Queen's)

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15261

                          #57
                          You're right, I confuse the two frequently! I am not worthy!

                          ;x(
                          the AudioWorx
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                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • audioslave
                            Member
                            • Oct 2003
                            • 34

                            #58
                            I thought his comments in the crossover section tracked nicely with what Jon has shown in the ISIRIS thread. They used a large air core inductor in the woofer section due to the distortion of the iron cores they tested.

                            The interviewer was quite cheeky to suggest they send the speaker to ASR for measurements on the Klipple NFS. He must be un-aware of the brutal videos from Amir about the PS Audio power regen products. It was also interesting to hear that Chris has some tangential personal relationship to folks at Madrona Digital and Amir.

                            BTW the very first DIY audio event I ever attended was hosted by Dan Wiggins and Adire Audio back in the early 2000's. That was certainly a blast from the past.
                            mike

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15261

                              #59
                              Some of those past events were real memory makers, like ones I got to meet and talk with Sigried Linkwitz in the Northern CA DIY meets.

                              This was a very interesting and informative video- especially if one has background knowledge about the other firms and personalities.
                              the AudioWorx
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                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15261

                                #60
                                Oh, and for anyone that would like to kick start their knowledge of LLC converters (great for audio power applications due to low switching noise and low current harmonics) here's some of the key references I mentioned:


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                                the AudioWorx
                                Natalie P
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                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment

                                • JonMarsh
                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 15261

                                  #61
                                  There has been a lot going on with activities on several fronts, including updates on the house, and finding time for posting has been neglected.

                                  But I thought I'd post a couple of teaser pictures about the basic Low Frequency module stack for "Proof of Concept" (POC) and where that is at... using Denovo 1 cu ft knock down cabinets from PE.

                                  These are being modified of course, with cut out on the back backside brace to support installing a PR there, and using the outer pre-cut 10" baffle part as the outer back panel, for fitting the PR and as a guide for cutting out the back side, with saber saw and router follower bit.

                                  Here's one of the cabinets with the updated routed back panels...

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                                  Test fit of the PR, which of course uses the same frame as the RSS265HO which is the nominal target for this cabinet

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                                  Here's the full stack for POC testing... the form factor solution would have the same net volume, but be only 3/4 the height, and quite a bit deeper.

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                                  A midrange/tweeter POC cabinet build is in progress, as well as builds for POC for a relatively conventional CC with either Esoteric 6" or 7" woofer- in a nod to heritage of the NeoD CC, these are 3" voice coil woofers, and the way the impedance and power sensitivity tracks, they are nearly identical in a 2x parallel array for the same applied voltage. These parts have fairly exceptional HD2 and HD3 characteristics, also a key driver for their choice. And the price is reasonable!


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                                  First up for testing for the midrange is the SB Acoustics SB12MNRX25-4, and we're looking at the SB19ST for the tweeter end of things.
                                  the AudioWorx
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                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15261

                                    #62
                                    There must be some kind of corollary between "slow work takes time" and "too many irons in the fire" - to the point that even relentless assiduous effort, spread over a number of projects, looks like I'm just goofing off!

                                    Of course, isn't that what retirement is supposed to be, a whole bunch of goofing off? I'm afraid I didn't get the memo...


                                    There's been a lot of work going down building test boxes to evaluate drivers for the updated CC project for Steve, but every now and then I skip out of the plantation and get something else worked on a bit...

                                    This morning was a push to get at least ONE of the LF POC test enclosures reasonable close to loading drivers...

                                    That involved making an outer woofer mount panel, and routing and cleaning it out, and preparing a mount point for a binding post plate and getting the posts and cable ready. Not very exciting, and then I got interrupted at blaster point by ET to fabricate another Midrange test sub enclosure - that is, a special backing enclosure behind the midrange, not an enclosure for a sub!

                                    Still, it gave me a reason to break out some of the bins with dedicated router setups...


                                    This Porter Cable, along with the DeWalt DW618 I have squirreled away somewhere, are my favorite driver rebate and hole tools, especially when combined with the Italian made 10 gallon DeWalt wet and dry vac that was available at Costco for a long time. (that's where I got mine)(still is there, at least online). It's my favorite small hose vac by a country mile.

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                                    Now, to explain how well this vac sucks, l submit this picture of the routed hole after the routing with no post route clean up or photo doctoring...


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                                    After cutting the disk out and using a follower bit in a hand held Makita router, a check fit shows that it's as snug as a bug in a rug- CNC grade precision, no slop at all.


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                                    I'm in the process of installing ATS denim insulation right now, and things should be ready to rock and roll and test for the one cabinet tomorrow.

                                    Note, these POC Denovo test boxes are NOT the form factor anticipated for the project if things test out- just something convenient for a low effort exploration and verification of Unibox and the actual drivers. I note that though the Fs spec for the RSS210HF is 29Hz, new drivers without break-in are running 31-32 Hz.

                                    Ya know, after playing around with all these 12" woofers and 10" PR's, this RSS210HF looks positively petite from the front...

                                    Sure hope this works... otherwise, what am I going to do with 8 - RSS210HF-4?
                                    the AudioWorx
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                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • Absinthe
                                      Member
                                      • Sep 2021
                                      • 48

                                      #63
                                      +1

                                      I used my 20 year old Craftsman wet/dry vac (which looks suspiciously similar to the DeWalt) for years in this capacity before we moved. With the move came the Wife's new car which mandated the move to one of these:



                                      Definitely overkill for a small, non-professional shop but I can't argue with the results.

                                      Comment

                                      • JonMarsh
                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 15261

                                        #64
                                        Yeah, but have you ever heard the old saying, "Some's good, more is better, and too much is just enough!" ?

                                        You may be in the "too much" territory with your Jet, but I'm sure you don't regret for a minute. If I wasn't just the wires and sparks guy, not a real woodworker, that would be on my shopping list!
                                        the AudioWorx
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                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                        Comment

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 15261

                                          #65
                                          Got to spend a little time today in the collecting data mode, after mounting driver and PR. Other tasks await, but I probably have enough time for a couple more posts before the big software roll over!


                                          One of the LF design issues to consider is tradeoffs between LF extension and excursion of the main driver- I've been mainly interested in two possibilities for the PR configuration, one with 350 grams total Mms, and the other with 275. Of course, it's one thing to have Unibox or other calculations, but its necessary to build and measure and check correlation, and see how a specific enclosure damping strategy may impact things. In this case, the 28 gross test enclosure is a bit smaller than what might be optimum, but the "optimum" size for LF extension also isn't very optimum space wise in the room!


                                          I installed the PR with two disks, adding up to 350 grams. This was the basis for the most extended repsonse, but this also means the PR impact doesn't come in until fairly low.

                                          Click image for larger version

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                                          Here, you can see the impedance minima at Fb, but you can't even see the lower impedance peak as that is below 20Hz. At or slightly below FB, the PR will have the strongest contribution and reduce the excursion of the main driver the most. This is "impressive" in some senses, but I do question how often there will be program material benefitting from this.


                                          Next up, I dropped back to my alternative, with 275g and one disk.


                                          Click image for larger version

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                                          This is still tuned below the previously measured Fs of this sample of RSS210HF (31Hz, versus spec of 29 Hz) but it will have an impact on LF output from the mid 20's up into the low 30's. Maybe this is what we want...
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                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15261

                                            #66
                                            What I really wanted some insight and correlation about today was the degree to which the RSS210HF4 walks the line between a woofer and a subwoofer. And my concern was more for the former behavior, as the paper LF analysis shows it should be adequate there. But part of why the E180HE got dropped from this new "Design Study" was it's very subwoofer like distortion characteristics, and rising distortion even with falling excursion as you get up into the lower midrange.

                                            The RSS210HF advertises three shorting rings to help control distortion rise (by reducing inductivity modulation, I'm assuming) but since I lived briefly as a child in the state of Missouri, I guess I can claim some rights to the unofficial state motto, the "Show Me State" (origin in the 1800's).

                                            So, I expected decent behavior given that the cone though somewhat light weight is very stiff, with a primary breakup mode at 4500Hz, but the motor will tell in other matters. Alas, I cannot have a part custom designed for me... my name isn't Chris!


                                            So, in this case I figured a quasi near field measurement at sufficient distance to capture "normal" integrated cone response, but to ignore the baffle step, would be what I needed.


                                            Click image for larger version

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                                            As you can see here, the 4500Hz breakup mode is a real lollapalooza, (I think that is the correct technical term) and it requires adjusting the maximum input acceptance level upwards to avoid clipping in the front end.

                                            The degree of flatness met and exceeded expectations below 1 kHz; considering a crossover point of 400-500Hz, that's fairly promising.

                                            What about HD? An analysis of the captured chirp measurement for HD3 is fairly promising- not PuriFi territory, but not what you expect with a subwoofer.


                                            Click image for larger version

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                                            I expect the classic notch filter at breakup resonance would improve things- how much remains to be seen, but it's probably worth a look before even starting a crossover, or just doing a simple POC crossover in the desired area.


                                            Last, I did a quick check of the PR output- things look like what I'd expect with the 275g Mms configuration, and above 100Hz the various room reflections dominate over the PR output.

                                            Click image for larger version

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                                            At this point I don't think there is much more to be gained by loading up all the POC cabinets- the CTC distances are going to be too long, and will impact the midrange linearity- I can even calculate that just using my Line array spread sheets.

                                            So the question now is, do I do a simple all drivers POC LF cabinet, or do I design the cabinet as I would like it and build it that way- I have most of the materials on hand. The design effort would delay this moving forward, but there's lots of other stuff that needs to be worked on, too.
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                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15261

                                              #67
                                              Well, boys will be boys, as Steve well knows, and so I've been doing some "imagineering" on the M1 Mac, and some more LF analysis, but I'd say some interesting progress has been made....

                                              Here's a potential LF cabinet concept, RSS210HF clusters together to get as smooth an upper end in a reasonable vertical angle as possible. Also, pondering some LF "imagineering" to test out in the real world, possibly turning this into a 3.5 way system, with asymmetrical LF configurations for the two sets of series wired RSS210HF-4 connected in parallel- the upper set running up to the full crossover, the lower set acting as adjustable baffle step and deeper bass... we shall see if this is a feasible concept or just too much sugar in my Sunday morning breakfast!




                                              Click image for larger version  Name:	V1.6-Shapr3D.png Views:	0 Size:	1.31 MB ID:	925871



                                              Note, front panel and top and back are from maple Ply, interior walls BB ply, exterior side walls bamboo board. Base/plinth from phenolic (not shown) interior braces BB ply (not shown)








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                                              Comment

                                              • JonMarsh
                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 15261

                                                #68
                                                Sunday is the day of rest, right? At least, rest from most normal chores, I'd hope. With outdoor temps at 100, and ones in the insulated garage starting to climb, too, and several test cabinets for CC drivers for Steve with the front panels now glued on and setting, it's much more fun twiddling with the CAD stuff and taking the idea of the next POC LF cabinet build a bit further.

                                                As that goes, so far, so good, as it seems feasible to attempt to realize it with the construction materials on hand- and the basic piece parts are all worked out. There will be many details to add later; I have several concepts for interconnects, controls, and connectors and cable that don't need to be fully addressed yet.

                                                And somehow, Steve has either lured or cajoled ET into working on a top module concept, rumor has it he's making progress but has some challenges and is trying several approaches. Anything he comes up with will either have to beat an Isiris top module, or come close while costing a lot less...

                                                And then, there is the dual 8" Purifi version of this, but the Danes and Swedes take almost all of June and July off, so it will probably be some time before I see those 8 PTT8.0X04-NAB I ordered what seems like months ago... and they're much more suited to a two driver approach, based on my analysis.

                                                But, in the mean time, I have a few more pretty renders with updates since the last one (technically, these aren't renders, they're just the working view).


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                                                Comment

                                                • JonMarsh
                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 15261

                                                  #69
                                                  This is a little closer to a "render", more like with a bad spray paint job- don't have the patience to address all the surfaces- rather get into the piece part drawings.


                                                  Click image for larger version

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Views:	359
Size:	1.92 MB
ID:	925888






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                                                  Comment

                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                    • 15261

                                                    #70
                                                    One more image and a few thoughts to share this morning...


                                                    The work on this project is being done with two programs, going back and forth, it's something of a first for me...

                                                    I'm very comfortable with both Shark and TurboCAD Pro 12; they use basically the same code base and interface, and as you'd expect, play nicely together. Pick one, it doesn't really matter too much which one, unless you want more image rendering options, then Shark is likely your best bet.


                                                    Now, OTOH, I really, REALLY like a lot of things about Shapr3D! it does some things fabulously... imagine a really talented adolescent- that's Shapr3D. Rock solid functionality, very stable, uses Siemens Parasolid 3D core, (same engine as SOLIDWORKS) runs like a bat out of hell on my M1 Mac mini, as the folks at Shapr3D ported the Siemens core from Intel to ARM for Apple themselves, and first introduced it on the iPad Pro. The 3D view choices are great, and the interactive editing for all surfaces and lines is a marvel compared with older CAD programs.

                                                    BUT, it is built around the most modern workflows- think CAM, like 3D printers and CNC. 2D drawings are there, but feel like an afterthought, lacking the control and flexibility I'm used to. Lacking enough that I simply can't get the results I want. Some other tools, like the section tool, clearly need work, and there is no wireframe view mode. They have one basic desktop rendering mode, and then add on some visualization stuff that works fairly well, but takes more time than typical to setup. Surfaces are applied plane by plane, even for the same solid item, which can make the process drag on...

                                                    But, an interesting thing, hand off between TurboCAD Pro 12 and Shapr3D with STEPs files is the best I've ever experienced, bar none. Previous imports from SOLIDWORKS and other traditional 3D programs pale in comparison, as regards the overall fidelity of what I'm gettin going from TurboCAD to Shapr3D. I can't say if it's a factor more in one program or the other, but it's a new experience for me with sharing STEP files.

                                                    So, while I wouldn't necessarily call this a marriage made in heaven, it's working surprisingly well for me.

                                                    Today's image is just sort of a cutaway, to understand the interior better, without a wireframe view. (Tsk, Tsk...). Note that the inner "pressure chambers" are different in size, for very specific reasons and specific volumes for research at the POC stage- this will be discussed later.


                                                    Keep in mind, this is WIP- Work In Progress, and more bracing may be added, though with the panel materials I'm using, it may not be necessary. Also I haven't gotten to the connectors and bolt holes and what not level of detail. That will evolve soon. I am considering using both SpeakOn connectors and binding posts, the latter more for ease of testing and a nod to traditionalists.


                                                    Click image for larger version  Name:	Saint-Saens_Cutaway.png Views:	0 Size:	1.20 MB ID:	925921

























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                                                    Comment

                                                    • CraigJ
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Feb 2006
                                                      • 518

                                                      #71
                                                      Here is a picture from video of the upcoming FR20 (prototype). The mid driver sure looks similar to the GRS PT5010-8 10" Planar Mid

                                                      [url=https://flic.kr/p/2nF1cHF]

                                                      Sorry for the strange orientation of the picture.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 15261

                                                        #72
                                                        I captured the video, downloaded it. Of course, Paul was trying to avoid giving away any details. I agree about the general midrange driver. I've seen PS Audio Videos where the front cover was briefly removed, and I'm pretty sure the tweeter is one of the PT2522 variants.

                                                        Something I noticed which I doubt Paul would expect we'd pick up on, (and I surmised this from the pictures of the front panel cover) is that the tweeter is located forwards of the midrange. This is rather curious for an LR4 crossover, but for an LR3 like I use often would make a lot of sense. But with the response of the 2522, and it's steep natural roll off in the "c" version, and curious if understandable response in the open back version (which mimics at a higher primary diaphragm panel resonance what the midrange panel measures) raises questions about what version or custom version they might be using, and why they have the tweeter forward of the midrange.








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                                                        I've heard some whispers from the droids that ET has a working low frequency model of the PT-5010, and has derived the diaphragm mass and modeled the response open back with accurate results for the primary impedance curve as well as the SPL response. That is reportedly what has been driving the experiments with different back enclosures, and the scuttlebutt is that the next build should zero in on the desired results.

                                                        BTW, I have seen the new mounting kits from GRS, and they do look like they'll be a useful help. Meniscus has been selling these earlier than PE, but not in the same fancy packaging. Curious.

                                                        ​​​​​​​Time will tell, I suppose...
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                                                        Comment

                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                          • 15261

                                                          #73
                                                          One other comment- that sure looks like a 12” PR. Not surprising- I calculate for two PuriFi PTT8.0X04 that either 2 RSS315PR or 3 RSS265PR are needed. The drift in T/S parameters based on a podcast interview with Chris seems to support the similarity in parameters.
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                                                          Comment

                                                          • CraigJ
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Feb 2006
                                                            • 518

                                                            #74
                                                            Interesting frequency response that you have measured of the mid and tweeter. Here is a frequency response of the FR30 as listed by hifinews;



                                                            Here is a schematic via hifinews that also show the use of “loaded waveguides” for the mid and tweeter, as well as the rear facing tweeter;





                                                            The use of the waveguide with the planar tweeter reminds me of John K’s NaO Note speaker (though John K used an open back planar tweeter).

                                                            Comment

                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                              • 15261

                                                              #75
                                                              Thank you for these links and information! I'm going to have to check some out in details. The published measured response is a bit of a head scratcher for me... but then, so was the Stereophile published test for the Tidal Akira.

                                                              I snuck into ET's lab last night, while he was out communing with the Force, and I noticed he's got PT-2522c's taken apart and some parts around that suggest a plan to modify the rear cup enclosure volume... knowing his usual operating preferences, I think he's going for a more balanced and extended lower and and better absorption of the rear wave, and using his typical LR3 network design, which WOULD require having the tweeter in front of the midrange panel, unlike the LR4 quoted in the FR30 specs. Imagine if one pushed the 2522 panel resonance up to just 1kHz, instead of the 2kHz published info. But, maybe not surprisingly, the impedance plots lying around ET's shop for the PT-2522c don't match the published data. One I "borrowed" and measured this morning didn't either.

                                                              No idea if he's pondering a waveguide... I do know he has quite a few samples of the new GRS mounting kits, which should clean up the front panel diffraction behavior...

                                                              It's a shame the boys at HiFi News didn't do an impedance plot... that can be very revealing. Their published SPL diagram is a bit suspect to me in some areas- especially low frequencies. The drop off below 60Hz doesn't match Chris Brunhaver's claims, and may only amount to a near field measurement integration issue. Note, for one configuration being considered with RSS210HF-4, 4 drivers, the SPL for 2.83VRMS is 91 dB. This doesn't consider things like crossover insertion losses. OTOH, achieving an F3 of 26Hz requires an enclosure size of 130L. The smallest enclosure being considered is 100L, with an Fb of 26Hz, and also an F3 of 27Hz. Both are larger than the FR30. Significantly. Hoffman's iron law, you know.

                                                              And no off axis stuff, either. J. A. they aren't.


                                                              Interesting... I haven't been keeping up as well this week, due to a blitz trip to CA. I'll flag this to ET, but he's got his own ideas, it seems.

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                                                              Comment

                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                • 15261

                                                                #76
                                                                This is interesting also...


                                                                Click image for larger version

Name:	722psa.lab2.jpg
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                                                                Comment

                                                                • wolf_teeth
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Feb 2011
                                                                  • 164

                                                                  #77
                                                                  The meniscus faceplates were made in the Machine Shop across the hall in their facility. They're not the same thing and haven't been for a while.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • JonMarsh
                                                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                                                    • Aug 2000
                                                                    • 15261

                                                                    #78
                                                                    Well, that's curious... maybe someone is looking over someone else's shoulder? I only received my Meniscus order relatively recently, as they'd been back ordered and out of stock. Having both the Meniscus and GRS side by side, or on top of each other, the outer frame size is identical, as is all other machined features, and as is the mounting isolation gasket and supplied hardware. Plastic bags they came in are identical too. But the GRS parts are in a thin white cardboard box with a 3/8" soft foam rectangle for protection.
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                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • wolf_teeth
                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                      • Feb 2011
                                                                      • 164

                                                                      #79
                                                                      Meniscus could be selling the GRS plates for all I know now. But they weren't before.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                                        • 15261

                                                                        #80
                                                                        I think they probably are now. Exhibit "A"; on the left is GRS hardware in bag, and below it another GRS plate from the rear. On the right are parts just received from Meniscus, in the bag, and below out in the clear. The thickness of the plates is identical.


                                                                        Click image for larger version

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                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • wolf_teeth
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Feb 2011
                                                                          • 164

                                                                          #81
                                                                          The old plates from Meniscus were square. And they had the rebate just as a square hole, flat no embellishing no curves, save for just the rounding on the corners. And there were no crevices or recesses or anything except the hole for the Tweeter to mount from the back side.

                                                                          I can take a photo of my Trichotomies should you want a picture.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                                            • 15261

                                                                            #82
                                                                            I'm sure you're right, I just guess they did a change over. The recesses are on the back side, so that the 2522 mounts flush, giving clearance to the assembly bolts. The resulting assembly is quite flush, but I think using RTV in the assembly process is a good idea if you want or need any kind of air seal.

                                                                            Click image for larger version

Name:	PT-2522 with Mounting kit_SS.jpg
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                                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                                            Natalie P
                                                                            M8ta
                                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                                            Isiris
                                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                                            SMJ
                                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                                            Calliope
                                                                            Ardent D

                                                                            In Development...
                                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                            Modula PWB
                                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • wolf_teeth
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Feb 2011
                                                                              • 164

                                                                              #83
                                                                              Yeah I did have to put adhesive behind mine to seal them up on the old meniscus plates too. I had an air leak and it sounded kind of funny until I fixed that.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                                • 15261

                                                                                #84
                                                                                The "imagineering" has moved a bit further along... getting a LOT closer to making sawdust.

                                                                                1" thick BB ply panels are in house now, for building a POC LF cabinet, and the CAD has been updated to a one piece sides 1" thick, and the front panel adjusted as necessary. Now I'm ready to create the piece part drawings, and Shapr3D has been coming along nicely in features and ease of use.

                                                                                I have yet to construct the V3 version of the midrange system, and while my Mk III mod on the PT2522 is working fairly satisfactorily, I will also be looking at Beyma AMT as alternative parts, though much more expensive- well it's relative, that means as expensive as a moderately high grade Scanspeak tweeter. At this point I imagine the upper POC module will be in two pieces for now, to allow flexibility and experimentation.

                                                                                Basic build concepts for. this cabinet are very similar to the Ardent D version I built as a POC prototype.



                                                                                Click image for larger version

Name:	Saint-Saens LF Nov 6 Wall update.png
Views:	289
Size:	1.98 MB
ID:	926818​​​​​​​


                                                                                the AudioWorx
                                                                                Natalie P
                                                                                M8ta
                                                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                Modula MT XE
                                                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                                                Isiris
                                                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                SMJ
                                                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                                                Calliope
                                                                                Ardent D

                                                                                In Development...
                                                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                Obi-Wan
                                                                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                Modula PWB
                                                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                Comment

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