Isiris Min- a definite Maybe?

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15261

    #46
    Dark horse midrange candidate...

    In addition to the SB15CAC with it's 150mm diameter frame, there's one more I think we should check out to see just how far we can push the idea of bang for the buck... let's call it a dark horse candidate, ET would approve of the color.


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    Now, before too many people break out laughing, let's recall that the published impedance plot is very clean looking in spite of the upper range breakup. And at least it's only nominal 1/24 octave smoothing.


    And the factory SPL plot is promisingly smooth, including sensitivity of 91.8 dB, though as always, these curves need to be verified, and the midrange distortion evaluated.



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    They're backorders until later this month, like a lot of things these days, but it's on my shopping list...

    At the least, testing it will be good for giggles, and I expect a respectable showing... :T
    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
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    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

    Comment

    • tktran
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2005
      • 658

      #47
      Hi Jon,
      Have you worked with the W15 CY or W15CH ?

      Comment

      • Bear
        Super Senior Member
        • Dec 2008
        • 1038

        #48
        Originally posted by JonMarsh
        getting a home construction project underway,
        Don't read buildingscience.com if this is what you want to do. If you do want to take the red pill, though, I can throw a few more resources at you. It makes buying a house hard and construction a lot more expensive because you're asking people to change. Fortunately, a dozen years later after I took my own red pill, and some of these techniques are a lot more common (e.g., ZIP Sheathing is relatively common -- expensive, but common).
        Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

        Comment

        • Efalegalo
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2007
          • 139

          #49
          Originally posted by tktran
          Hi Jon,
          Have you worked with the W15 CY or W15CH ?
          I'm guessing one concern would be the sensitivity. Both drivers have a rising response and are rated around 85-ish-db; however, at the target x-over frequency (i.e. 300hz-ish), the measured response is closer to 82db.

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15261

            #50
            Originally posted by tktran
            Hi Jon,
            Have you worked with the W15 CY or W15CH ?
            Yes. Characteristic sensitivity is too low for this application. The CY has more of a pre-resonant anti-phase dip than I care for, too… with an 1800Hz or lower crossover, I think they’re pretty nice. But we need a part around 90db. If 87 dB were even good enough, I’d consider the Anarchy 554, which I have on hand. 85 won’t work.
            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15261

              #51
              Originally posted by Bear
              Don't read buildingscience.com if this is what you want to do. If you do want to take the red pill, though, I can throw a few more resources at you. It makes buying a house hard and construction a lot more expensive because you're asking people to change. Fortunately, a dozen years later after I took my own red pill, and some of these techniques are a lot more common (e.g., ZIP Sheathing is relatively common -- expensive, but common).
              Yeah, I’ve taken a lot of those red pills in live, and it can complicate things! I’ve already got a contract with a local builder, who from my research is quite high quality, and by getting on one of the last lots in a phase of a project that was supposed to start Q3 last year but was held up on permitting, we’re getting a very good price for what we’re getting. Even more important, is what I’d call a 3-1/2 car garage- it’s considered a tandem 3 car (one bay double deep) with an added third bay on the side, so this should work out well for the vehicles and workshop space.

              Literally, this builder was willing to supply a lot of detailed info that most don’t want to discuss, I don’t know if that is just their way, but as our agent (who is originally from Russia- speaks fluent Russian obviously, a big help for Liubov) but also a very good agent, and both the builder and agent say I have done a LOT more homework and can have rapid fire detailed discussions compared with their usual customer. So I’ve been pretty happy with how things have gone down so far…
              the AudioWorx
              Natalie P
              M8ta
              Modula Neo DCC
              Modula MT XE
              Modula Xtreme
              Isiris
              Wavecor Ardent

              SMJ
              Minerva Monitor
              Calliope
              Ardent D

              In Development...
              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
              Obi-Wan
              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
              Modula PWB
              Calliope CC Supreme
              Natalie P Ultra
              Natalie P Supreme
              Janus BP1 Sub


              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • technodanvan
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2009
                • 998

                #52
                Originally posted by JonMarsh
                As to the Peerless, this was the first system built with it, the two way using the MW19P.
                Did you ever publish this design Jon?
                - Danny

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15261

                  #53
                  Originally posted by technodanvan
                  Did you ever publish this design Jon?
                  This is the Calliope design that Steve built for himself, as the initial “proving ground” for the TTC concept, and which Sven got a kit from Steve.

                  It was described in the “A New Adventure” thread, and Sven posted a thread about the build.
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • Bear
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Dec 2008
                    • 1038

                    #54
                    Originally posted by JonMarsh
                    Let's start from the fundamentals, in this case, the fundament or bass cabinet. Lest anyone not be aware, I have a bit of a soft spot for the Dayton RSSXXXHF series drivers. They rather successfully straddle the divide between woofers and subwoofers, and do so at a remarkably reasonable cost.
                    Aside from the fact that they are in stock, I'm curious if you've tried the RSS265HO-44 yet? The inductive rise is pretty significant vs the HFA, but the impedance plot itself is a touch cleaner. It obviously has some issues, but I'd be curious to get your thoughts.
                    Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15261

                      #55
                      Thoughts on RSS265HO44

                      Bear, one of the things I like about the Dayton RSS series is that these guys do so many variations on a theme for which the parameters seem to me to be clearly tuned for different applications. It's smart for business and manufacturing, and gives customers some nice options.


                      Now, I THINK I know well what the RSS265HO44 is intended for, but I'm a bit surprised at "slip-ups" on the product description page.


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                      Nice low resonant frequency for a 10" driver, impedance listed at 8 ohms, and sensitivity of 90.5 dB! How'd they do that?!??

                      but wait, why is the DCR 1.6 ohms?

                      Total Q is spec'd at 0.45, so this looks like a good choice for closed box.

                      Let's take a closer look at the response plots...


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                      As you mention, the impedance plot has a pretty strong rise, and that's with the voice coils in parallel. If plotted for series, on the same scale, it would be much higher.

                      And so it's no surprise that the response shows a characteristic "droop" from 100Hz to 500Hz, typical of high inductance (relative to the Re) designs - it's down about 5 dB at 500Hz.


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                      With that and the 2 ohm net impedance, and mms being 25% higher than the HF versions, I'd say the target market for this puppy is car audio in small boxes, with a subwoofer type bandwidth. And that's fine, it's exactly what some folks will be looking for. Is it what you're looking for?

                      Now, another thing "odd" to me about this part, considering it's an HO part, is the mms. Yes, it's higher than the HF parts, but quite a bit lower than the HO-4- which is 40g more at 200g. Two of these in parallel would give you the same Z as the HO44, but 3 dB more output for the same electrical input.

                      Here's another curious point to ponder- both the HO parts have a slightly lower Xmax than the HFA. Is that due to actual VC length, or is is due to BL fall off, and calling Xmax at 70% of full BL, as is typical?


                      So, in summary, I like the 315HFA-8 because it's a usable impedance for my applications, the sensitivity isn't bad, similar to some smaller conventional woofers, and the Xmax is righteous considering all of that. And it's almost flat out to 400Hz. The RSS265HF-8 has a slight droop, but not as much as the HO parts.
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • tktran
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2005
                        • 658

                        #56
                        The RS subwoofers have gone up in price by 50% compared to when they were first introduced.

                        In the meantime Peerless discontinued the X/XLS. The was a good platform that started as optimised for passive radiators but later had all kinds of variants for small box/car subwoofer and sealed and ported.

                        The SDF series looks to take over but not readily available.
                        10”
                        https://products.tymphany.com/transducer/433
                        12”
                        https://products.tymphany.com/transducer/600


                        It’s hard to find a woofer that can crossover at around 300Hz but still have lots of x-max. Apart from SEAS L26ROY

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15261

                          #57
                          Originally posted by tktran
                          The RS subwoofers have gone up in price by 50% compared to when they were first introduced.



                          It’s hard to find a woofer that can crossover at around 300Hz but still have lots of x-max. Apart from SEAS L26ROY
                          And let's increase the olympic degree of difficulty by specifying 8 ohms...

                          Yes, the RS subwoofer have gone up in price, but they're still relative bargains compared with the competition.


                          And the L26ROY has been out of stock for sometime at the distributors... I have a couple here, and I sure wish they made an 8 ohm 12" version. but they don't. Even an 8 ohm 10" version would make me happy... and in fact, if I went with a series configuration like the original Isiris, the existing version would work passably well for a mini Isiris, though with low sensitivity. Solen has 2 in stock, Madisound hasn't had any for quite some time. Supply chain issues, I am guessing. Just like my Michelin snow tires last fall...
                          the AudioWorx
                          Natalie P
                          M8ta
                          Modula Neo DCC
                          Modula MT XE
                          Modula Xtreme
                          Isiris
                          Wavecor Ardent

                          SMJ
                          Minerva Monitor
                          Calliope
                          Ardent D

                          In Development...
                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                          Obi-Wan
                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                          Modula PWB
                          Calliope CC Supreme
                          Natalie P Ultra
                          Natalie P Supreme
                          Janus BP1 Sub


                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • Bear
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 1038

                            #58
                            Originally posted by JonMarsh
                            And let's increase the olympic degree of difficulty by specifying 8 ohms...

                            Yes, the RS subwoofer have gone up in price, but they're still relative bargains compared with the competition.


                            And the L26ROY has been out of stock for sometime at the distributors... I have a couple here, and I sure wish they made an 8 ohm 12" version. but they don't. Even an 8 ohm 10" version would make me happy... and in fact, if I went with a series configuration like the original Isiris, the existing version would work passably well for a mini Isiris, though with low sensitivity. Solen has 2 in stock, Madisound hasn't had any for quite some time. Supply chain issues, I am guessing. Just like my Michelin snow tires last fall...
                            The SW223BD03 models well, but it is 3 - 4dB too quiet.
                            Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                            Comment

                            • JonMarsh
                              Mad Max Moderator
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 15261

                              #59
                              Yeah, if Wavecore had a 12" driver in the same performance class as the SW223, scaled up, similar cone design, but instead they HAD the SW312WA series, only 4 ohm in US, which is on clearance, and too low sensitivity, and too high Qts, high Mms, not a terribly good motor.

                              Caviar dreams and champagne wishes...


                              At this point I'm grinding through the work of updating CAD documents and adding metric values to measurements. Also creating piece part drawings for some of the smaller bits in the bass cabinet base, and preparing tweaks for the woofer mounting and baseplate mounting; all the hardware is on hand, and the Hitachi RIVNUTs look pretty promising for the woofer mounting.
                              the AudioWorx
                              Natalie P
                              M8ta
                              Modula Neo DCC
                              Modula MT XE
                              Modula Xtreme
                              Isiris
                              Wavecor Ardent

                              SMJ
                              Minerva Monitor
                              Calliope
                              Ardent D

                              In Development...
                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                              Obi-Wan
                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                              Modula PWB
                              Calliope CC Supreme
                              Natalie P Ultra
                              Natalie P Supreme
                              Janus BP1 Sub


                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                              Comment

                              • foxes_lover
                                Junior Member
                                • Mar 2018
                                • 4

                                #60
                                Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                Now, I THINK I know well what the RSS265HO44 is intended for, but I'm a bit surprised at "slip-ups" on the product description page.

                                but wait, why is the DCR 1.6 ohms?

                                With that and the 2 ohm net impedance, and mms being 25% higher than the HF versions, I'd say the target market for this puppy is car audio in small boxes, with a subwoofer type bandwidth.
                                The driver is dual 4ohm vc so we can connect in series to make 8 ohm instead of 2 ohm.

                                Comment

                                • Bear
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Dec 2008
                                  • 1038

                                  #61
                                  Originally posted by foxes_lover
                                  The driver is dual 4ohm vc so we can connect in series to make 8 ohm instead of 2 ohm.
                                  The spec sheet also requires some interpretation to determine what the T/S parameters look like when wired in series. I would have expected the upper bass droop to facilitate a crossover in the 350 - 500Hz range, but that doesn't seem to be where this is headed. :-)
                                  Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15261

                                    #62
                                    Originally posted by Bear
                                    The spec sheet also requires some interpretation to determine what the T/S parameters look like when wired in series. I would have expected the upper bass droop to facilitate a crossover in the 350 - 500Hz range, but that doesn't seem to be where this is headed. :-)
                                    You KNOW how we always like to go off on some interesting “tangents”, so to speak…

                                    Had to switch back to my older outlining and documentation tool after finding a critical issue with the new one I was trying out for this project- but have things up to snuf, drills and drill guides loaded for some cabinet tweak updates, and am looking forward to making sawdust. Not much. Could ship it to Steve and he’d hardly notice it…should be ready for new measurements in a day or two.
                                    the AudioWorx
                                    Natalie P
                                    M8ta
                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                    Modula MT XE
                                    Modula Xtreme
                                    Isiris
                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                    SMJ
                                    Minerva Monitor
                                    Calliope
                                    Ardent D

                                    In Development...
                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                    Obi-Wan
                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                    Modula PWB
                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • JonMarsh
                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 15261

                                      #63
                                      Well, do you ever have one of those Father's Days? when a friend and former colleague turns you on to a cool new jig saw he just bought, made in the same series of a drill he turned me onto last month that's now probably my favorite battery powered drill?

                                      But while he's doing that, I'm reading recent Voice Coil reviews and come across a driver that visually triggers two atavistic responses- one related to an Audax Pro midrange I used in the late 70's that like this SB Audience driver has a flat surround, and the other to the magnet/motor assembly on my favorite Accuton drivers (which are underhung, but it turns out this motor isn't).

                                      But this driver COULD do over 120dB output with HD3 45 dB down from 300Hz to 3kHz, and has a sensitivity of about 98.5 dB for 2.83VRMS, and is 8 ohm nominal (you know, the usual 5-6 ohm RDC).

                                      And the only lower frequency frequency impedance glitch seems to be a minor cone edge resonance that shows up off axis at a fairly low level-= and not on the CSD plot. Hmmm. And the price is about 1/5 of those Accuton parts I love. Hmmmm.

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                                      Jig saw or new drivers to test? New drivers to test, or jig saw? What a Father's Day dilemma...


                                      well, I'm a sucker for shiny bits, and the jig saw had more plastic than shiny stuff, so the drivers are ordered!
                                      the AudioWorx
                                      Natalie P
                                      M8ta
                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                      Modula MT XE
                                      Modula Xtreme
                                      Isiris
                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                      SMJ
                                      Minerva Monitor
                                      Calliope
                                      Ardent D

                                      In Development...
                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                      Obi-Wan
                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                      Modula PWB
                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                      Comment

                                      • 5th element
                                        Supreme Being Moderator
                                        • Sep 2009
                                        • 1671

                                        #64
                                        This is actually excellent news. I'd seen this part too and had my eyes on it. It's going to be interesting to see how its HD looks at more sensible SPLs. As it stands the 104dB distortion doesn't look particularly impressive although it is free from any distortion spikes that would be of major concern. Certainly it needs a 4th order at 2kHz approach to keep that second order spike out of harms way but that's fairly common for any 6" driver, especially as it will help the off axis performance.

                                        For comparison the SB17BNAC at 100-102dB has significantly better HD. 10-15dB lower for the 3rd harmonic.
                                        What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                                        5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                                        Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                                        Comment

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 15261

                                          #65
                                          a couple of pictures worth a thousand words?

                                          Originally posted by 5th element
                                          This is actually excellent news. I'd seen this part too and had my eyes on it. It's going to be interesting to see how its HD looks at more sensible SPLs. As it stands the 104dB distortion doesn't look particularly impressive although it is free from any distortion spikes that would be of major concern. Certainly it needs a 4th order at 2kHz approach to keep that second order spike out of harms way but that's fairly common for any 6" driver, especially as it will help the off axis performance.

                                          For comparison the SB17BNAC at 100-102dB has significantly better HD. 10-15dB lower for the 3rd harmonic.
                                          Yeah, it's going to be a case of the proof is in the pudding, and I don't know what flavor of pudding this will turn out to be... but we'll find out.


                                          Something else I found today that could be very promising when finally available...


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                                          I'll let the pictures speak for themselves...
                                          the AudioWorx
                                          Natalie P
                                          M8ta
                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                          Modula MT XE
                                          Modula Xtreme
                                          Isiris
                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                          SMJ
                                          Minerva Monitor
                                          Calliope
                                          Ardent D

                                          In Development...
                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                          Obi-Wan
                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                          Modula PWB
                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                          Comment

                                          • Bear
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Dec 2008
                                            • 1038

                                            #66
                                            This seems like it could be an amazing driver for a mid or even in a 6+1 that transitions to a subwoofer in the 60 - 120Hz range. Tuck it next to a Bliesma T34 that can handle a lower Fc, and it won't get a lot better, only more expensive.
                                            Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15261

                                              #67
                                              Originally posted by Bear
                                              This seems like it could be an amazing driver for a mid or even in a 6+1 that transitions to a subwoofer in the 60 - 120Hz range. Tuck it next to a Bliesma T34 that can handle a lower Fc, and it won't get a lot better, only more expensive.

                                              Well, make that a BlieSMa T34B, and you've nicely summarized the configuration I'll probably pursue for the Isiris MkII, not the Jr, technically- though if there will really be a "Jr." per se is open to debate. In for a dime, in for a quarter... I'm awaiting a response about when I can get in the queue for a sample order. They're still pulling subcomponents together, but it sound like it might not be more than a couple of months away, with a little luck. This driver SHOULD rival the C173-6-090, if it lives up to the preview data.

                                              So building anther set of top module cabinets is probably somewhere in my future the next few months...
                                              the AudioWorx
                                              Natalie P
                                              M8ta
                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                              Modula MT XE
                                              Modula Xtreme
                                              Isiris
                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                              SMJ
                                              Minerva Monitor
                                              Calliope
                                              Ardent D

                                              In Development...
                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                              Obi-Wan
                                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                              Modula PWB
                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                              Comment

                                              • Bear
                                                Super Senior Member
                                                • Dec 2008
                                                • 1038

                                                #68
                                                Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                Well, make that a BlieSMa T34B, and you've nicely summarized the configuration I'll probably pursue for the Isiris MkII, not the Jr, technically- though if there will really be a "Jr." per se is open to debate. In for a dime, in for a quarter... I'm awaiting a response about when I can get in the queue for a sample order. They're still pulling subcomponents together, but it sound like it might not be more than a couple of months away, with a little luck. This driver SHOULD rival the C173-6-090, if it lives up to the preview data.

                                                So building anther set of top module cabinets is probably somewhere in my future the next few months...
                                                I only have the T-34A on hand. I'll still whine/lobby for the SW223BD03 since I have a four pack, but the sensitivity mismatch is likely too great (but ~40L for a pair with a pair of RSS265PRs....). Plus, I need to finish the dang 6+1 (SB17/SB26s) though, at some point.
                                                Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                                Comment

                                                • JonMarsh
                                                  Mad Max Moderator
                                                  • Aug 2000
                                                  • 15261

                                                  #69
                                                  Originally posted by Bear
                                                  I only have the T-34A on hand. I'll still whine/lobby for the SW223BD03 since I have a four pack, but the sensitivity mismatch is likely too great (but ~40L for a pair with a pair of RSS265PRs....). Plus, I need to finish the dang 6+1 (SB17/SB26s) though, at some point.

                                                  Trust me, we all have our crosses to bear...

                                                  :W

                                                  :T
                                                  the AudioWorx
                                                  Natalie P
                                                  M8ta
                                                  Modula Neo DCC
                                                  Modula MT XE
                                                  Modula Xtreme
                                                  Isiris
                                                  Wavecor Ardent

                                                  SMJ
                                                  Minerva Monitor
                                                  Calliope
                                                  Ardent D

                                                  In Development...
                                                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                  Obi-Wan
                                                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                  Modula PWB
                                                  Calliope CC Supreme
                                                  Natalie P Ultra
                                                  Natalie P Supreme
                                                  Janus BP1 Sub


                                                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                  Comment

                                                  • tktran
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Jan 2005
                                                    • 658

                                                    #70
                                                    Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                    Well, make that a BlieSMa T34B, and you've nicely summarized the configuration I'll probably pursue for the Isiris MkII, not the Jr, technically- though if there will really be a "Jr." per se is open to debate. In for a dime, in for a quarter... I'm awaiting a response about when I can get in the queue for a sample order. They're still pulling subcomponents together, but it sound like it might not be more than a couple of months away, with a little luck. This driver SHOULD rival the C173-6-090, if it lives up to the preview data.

                                                    So building anther set of top module cabinets is probably somewhere in my future the next few months...
                                                    Hi Jon,
                                                    For many years people have been talking about this driver. It’s one of those oldie but a goodie.

                                                    What makes this driver such a valuable mid-range?
                                                    And can the measurements explain it’s great characteristics?
                                                    The HD3 and HD5 aren’t stellar. But the sensitivity and mid band 200-2000 is great. There’s a tiny dip at 1Khz but on a standard baffle eg. 8-9” wide it probable balances out.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 15261

                                                      #71
                                                      Originally posted by tktran
                                                      Hi Jon,
                                                      For many years people have been talking about this driver. It’s one of those oldie but a goodie.

                                                      What makes this driver such a valuable mid-range?
                                                      And can the measurements explain it’s great characteristics?
                                                      The HD3 and HD5 aren’t stellar. But the sensitivity and mid band 200-2000 is great. There’s a tiny dip at 1Khz but on a standard baffle eg. 8-9” wide it probable balances out.
                                                      Not sure, but I'm guessing/assuming you're talking about the C173-6-090.

                                                      So here are some of my thoughts and experiences about this part. First, a bit in comparison to other Accuton parts, and then what it does in a system, in my experience, and a sort of comparison to an older system I built in the late 90's that did some interesting things, too.

                                                      First, I personally have to take published data sheets from Accuton with a grain of salt, because they keep changing some of the curves, and possibly changing the drivers, but without noting this in a suffix letter.

                                                      If you look at the 090, 096, and 191 on Accuton's web site in their hall of fame, they're all depicted with the damper plugs in the cones. But personal experience (owning some 191's) and Madison and Solen's data shows cones without the damper plugs.

                                                      The SPL plots on Madiound's and Solen's site are not the same as what Accuton is current showing, even for the 090, which is at least depicted the same for a long time. However, a few years ago they did go to a different magnet and motor assembly of a very similar, but not the same design. Personally, I think a responsible company would have -X updates to the part number to reflect this, especially when published curves are being changed at the same time. Same part number, but not the same part.

                                                      My other beef with Accuton about distortion measurements is the use of a linear scale which obscures differences for top performing drivers. Telling what's what below 1/2% is pretty tough.

                                                      ASIDE from these rather important points, what do we have?


                                                      Two key design factors in this 6-1/2" part, in my opinion:





                                                      Both are "evident" in this picture, but the implications require detailed testing.

                                                      First, it has a massive neodymium motor in order to power a long underhung gap. This part weighs like a large ferrite magnet mid woofer (say, the C173-6-191), not like a Neo part, because of the underhung design of the motor. It has an Xmax of 5mm, and because of the underhung design, the BL curve is very flat over most of it, much flatter than the C173-6-191, with it's conventional overhung motor, rated for the same Xmax.

                                                      Also, like the 079, it has the holes and breakup resonance suppression disks, and unlike the 191 which lack this and have higher Q breakup modes. The 096 is sometimes pictured with them and sometimes without. Usually the 191 is depicted without.

                                                      These characteristics work together in a couple of ways. One is less resonance amplification of distortion products compared to the other two.

                                                      The underhung motor, OTOH, in my experience contributes to a significant stability in distortion measurements over a pretty wide drive and dB range. In 2012 I measured the 090's with Praxis, at increasing levels, from 2.83vrms to 5.6VRMS and 8.4VRMS, (keeping in mind the sensitivity of this part- this is getting over 100dB) and the distortion plots only inched up slightly. Keep in mind I have very early parts, and I would expect parts in the last three or four years or so with the newer motor may perform even better. Or not... who knows? In God we Trust, all others we verify!


                                                      But, this highlights why the two systems I've built with this driver remind me of my old experiment from the 90's, the X1 SLAMM Klones. That had TWO Eton 7" mid woofers for the midrange, in an MTM with a Focal T120 tweeter, and a 13" and 15" Audax Pro woofers. Crossovers at about 250Hz and 2200 Hz. I got them first running at T. Waale's place in Denver, and we were just deciding to listen to some "laid back" music, not push the envelope. In this case that was some Michael Hedges. a lot of material in the mid bass through midrange and top end. Sounded dang nice, and we just turned them up a bit... and turned them up a bit more. And a bit more. Just crystal clear. but you know, Michale Hedges isn't really meant to be listened to at 100dB+ for extended periods- but the speakers just sailed through it. No stress.

                                                      Well, that's how the C171-6-090 works, only it's just one driver. If you match it up with similarly capable parts, it has ease and dynamics that are hard to match in the listening experience, and this is why they've been so popular with so many manufacturers.

                                                      When I get all the new drivers in to test, I plan to do some IM tests using my APx555 (I have the acoustics software module, but all I really need to do is two tone or multi-tone IM and look at the spectrum)

                                                      It will be interesting, but one candidate is still weeks away, from what the mfr is telling me. Probably late summer.

                                                      There's a lot of moving work still to be done, including three motorcycles! a trailer trip for each one!
                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                      Natalie P
                                                      M8ta
                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                      Isiris
                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                      SMJ
                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                      Calliope
                                                      Ardent D

                                                      In Development...
                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                      Modula PWB
                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                      Comment

                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 15261

                                                        #72
                                                        Exhibit A: C173-6-191:

                                                        From Madisound-







                                                        From Accuton "Hall of Fame", C173-6-191E:






                                                        From Accuton data sheet, C173-6-191E via Solen:

                                                        Click image for larger version

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                                                        Who you gonna believe? Accuton? or Accuton? Or, maybe Accuton?

                                                        Maybe they're all "right", for the measured part at a specific date...
                                                        Attached Files
                                                        the AudioWorx
                                                        Natalie P
                                                        M8ta
                                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                                        Modula MT XE
                                                        Modula Xtreme
                                                        Isiris
                                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                                        SMJ
                                                        Minerva Monitor
                                                        Calliope
                                                        Ardent D

                                                        In Development...
                                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                        Obi-Wan
                                                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                        Modula PWB
                                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                        Comment

                                                        • chrisn
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Sep 2007
                                                          • 166

                                                          #73
                                                          Just a little different8O

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15261

                                                            #74
                                                            Well, Madisound still can't use the correct shipping and billing addresses I updated in my account with them months ago- the SB Audience midranges went to my old address in CA. Worse thing is, you can't even check what address they're going to use when you're doing checkout. Out of the last three orders, one was handled correctly, but had the wrong billing address, but still got to me. And earlier one had the correct billing address, but the wrong shipping address- that never got to me. At ALL times my profile was fully updated and the old addresses weren't in there.

                                                            Gotta place an order today for those SB Audience drivers with Solen. I'm fed up with Madisound.
                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                            Natalie P
                                                            M8ta
                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                            Isiris
                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                            SMJ
                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                            Calliope
                                                            Ardent D

                                                            In Development...
                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                            Modula PWB
                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • JonMarsh
                                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                                              • Aug 2000
                                                              • 15261

                                                              #75
                                                              Adam at Madisound has been following up, even tried entering a test order but this time it didn't screw up the shipping address or change the billing address, unlike last Friday.

                                                              I also ordered another set of the 6RMN150D using "Guest".

                                                              Madisound is going to try to get FedEx to pickup and forward the order delivered to CA yesterday.

                                                              So, progress in various ways...
                                                              the AudioWorx
                                                              Natalie P
                                                              M8ta
                                                              Modula Neo DCC
                                                              Modula MT XE
                                                              Modula Xtreme
                                                              Isiris
                                                              Wavecor Ardent

                                                              SMJ
                                                              Minerva Monitor
                                                              Calliope
                                                              Ardent D

                                                              In Development...
                                                              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                              Obi-Wan
                                                              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                              Modula PWB
                                                              Calliope CC Supreme
                                                              Natalie P Ultra
                                                              Natalie P Supreme
                                                              Janus BP1 Sub


                                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                              Comment

                                                              • theSven
                                                                Master of None
                                                                • Jan 2014
                                                                • 855

                                                                #76
                                                                Super frustrating when a system doesn’t work properly!! Good to hear that guest checkout works.
                                                                Painter in training

                                                                Comment

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