Steve's been bugging me for a center channel design...

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15282

    Steve's been bugging me for a center channel design...

    Sometimes I wonder if developing another center channel design is a bit like doing another 6-1/2" two way- as I think Dennis Murphy said once, another 6-1/2' two way is not going to be a ground breaking concept...

    But it can be made interesting... (but that's a different day and a different project... )


    And in the case of a CC, well, we have some precedent for slightly off the beaten path CC's with the NeoD CC design.


    http:s//www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?27218-Modula-NeoD-CC-Introduction-and-Build-Thread&highlight=NeoD



    That design's trick was a pretty good (at the time; times change) dome midrange, a compact clean tweeter, and relatively low cost copies of the large voice coil design woofers done by Dynaudio and Morel, all stitched together with a crossover that had a passing fair resemblance to a Duelund, but modified some transfer characteristics to make it feasible to have a rearward time offset on the woofer, and to simply slightly the target function.

    And it did a pretty fair job of getting the job done-





    I actually built a pair and evaluated them as a stereo speaker as well, though the driver layout was not optimized for that, in some senses. That pair was donated to the partial quadriplegic son (diving accident) of my ex wife's oldest sister. His mom, in fact, is the recipient for the original pair of Module XT HE. Sadly, she died in a rafting accident on the Canadian North Slope on a package adventure several years ago, and her son was rather taken advantage of by his sister- no one in the family is speaking to her these days.

    But I digress...


    So, the intent is both a CC design and possibly a 3.5 way TMWW design in the future with the same driver set. Still compact, but more capable... this is 2020, after all, not 2009.

    Recent driver evaluations have pointed things in some interesting directions, so the plan of record now is
    • Anarchy 558's for the woofers, due to high Xmax and reasonably linear motor, and excellent cone behavior up to 3kHz
    • Morel EM1308 dome midrange - no pesky surround resonances or other problem that mar the current Dayton RS52AN
    • SB Acoustics SB26CDC-C0004 tweeter, which is likely one of the finest 100mm frame tweeters you can get for under $100.
    • A full on Duelund crossover... only one phase turnover, and drivers pretty much in phase for all frequencies (difficult to impossible apart from the theoretical transfer function) down to -20dB (achievable with work).



    Evil Twin has saved me some work with driver evaluations, so things are moving along at a reasonable rate...


    Of course, before committing to hardware, it's a good idea to have a POC plan (Proof Of Concept) and that has been completed for the initial network design with a modified voicing concept:


    Click image for larger version  Name:	NeoD D 558 EM1308 SB26CDC V8 SPL Full crop.jpg Views:	1 Size:	105.9 KB ID:	872547


    no obvious problems here, so obviously I've overlooked something, but I'm sure I'll discover it during the assembly and development!

    The plan for an initial test cabinet is embarrassingly ad hoc- an unhoy marriage of two Denovo 0.56 cu ft MDF cabinets, with added top and bottom structural panels, and a simple LBL front panel.

    This is just a development mule, after all... Steve will come up with something attractive for us to admire if I can just make this work...
    Last edited by theSven; 23 May 2023, 21:06 Tuesday. Reason: Update image location
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  • Bear
    Super Senior Member
    • Dec 2008
    • 1038

    #2
    As always, I greatly appreciate the work that you and his lordship provide to the meek and unworthy.
    Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15282

      #3
      Front panel concept and fabrication

      Let's get started by figuring out how to put together a layout for the front panel with a relatively large tweeter that will fit on a relatively short baffle...


      The SB26CDC-C0004 is a bit bigger than ideal for this application, but I think there's a way to make it work, by overlapping the tweeter and midrange in the Z-Axis.


      All in all, especially with a Duelund crossover approach, it's important to minimize CTC distances for all drivers. Here's the concept for how we're going to do that...


      Click image for larger version

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      The tweeter will be rebated by the felt pad, which will have an opening for the midrange, and the midrange will be rebated into the cabinet so that the flange of the tweeter can sit over the midrange flange.

      Here's a nice drawing for how that could all work out on a 10" high baffle...


      Click image for larger version

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      So, the midrange and tweeter holes wind up looking like this after being cut:


      Click image for larger version

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      And a quick check shows how they mount together.


      Click image for larger version

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      Now this has all been going pretty smoothly up to this point, but the sort of creepy thing is how Evil Twin's new feral cat Sith apprentice is giving me the evil eye the whole time I'm working on this, and forget doing any scratch the ears business or what not- he just has a hissy fit- literally!

      8O


      Click image for larger version

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      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
      Modula Neo DCC
      Modula MT XE
      Modula Xtreme
      Isiris
      Wavecor Ardent

      SMJ
      Minerva Monitor
      Calliope
      Ardent D

      In Development...
      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
      Obi-Wan
      Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
      Modula PWB
      Calliope CC Supreme
      Natalie P Ultra
      Natalie P Supreme
      Janus BP1 Sub


      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15282

        #4
        Completing the test front panel...

        OK, not a lot left to do to wrap up the basics for the front panel... just the woofer holes... the usual rebate and counterbore.


        Of course, if you're measurement impaired, or have trouble selecting JUST the RIGHT hole on the router base fixture, you can wind up with small "issues" like a woofer rebate that doesn't quite fit the driver...

        No worries, that's why they make all those fancy adjustable variable size milling bit...



        Click image for larger version

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        Then it's time to do another dimensional mounting check...



        Click image for larger version

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        Keep in mind there will be a vertically oriented felt pad around the tweeter with a cut out for the midrange at the dispersion ring flange...

        Things are looking pretty good now, and it will be possible to glue the front panel to the cabinet lash up previously prepared from grafting two of these together (recommended by ET- he uses these for all of his driver testing...)


        Knock-Down MDF 0.56 cu. ft. Bookshelf Speaker CabinetCNC knock-down cabinets make it easy for the beginner to end up with amazing finished results without all of the time and effort necessary to perfect your woodworking skills, perfect for speaker builders who don't have expensive tools or access to a woodshop. Assembly literally takes minutes!During the CNC process, dadoes are cut into the top, bottom, and rear of the side panels to ensure a secure fit while maximizing the gluing surface and making assembly easy. An optional window brace is included to offer rock-solid rigidity.The front baffle features roundovers on the sides for a professional look while minimizing diffraction, and the entire cabinet is made of MDF for an acoustically inert effect on speakers. While designed to be a 0.56 cubic foot bookshelf cabinet, this enclosure can alternatively be laid upon its side for center channel use. Note: Panel dimensions and a 3D SketchUp model are included in the Manuals/Resources section. To open and use the 3D model, you need to download and install a program to unzip the file (7-Zip is free and recommended) and then download and install SketchUp to open the .skp file.Specifications: • Panel thickness: 3/4" • Panel material: Medium Density Fiberboard (MDF) • Finished cabinet volume: 0.56 cubic feet • External dimensions: 16" H x 8.5" W x 11" D • Internal dimensions: 14.5" H x 7" W x 9.5" D • Made in the U.S.A. • Sold individually.
        the AudioWorx
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        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
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        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • 5th element
          Supreme Being Moderator
          • Sep 2009
          • 1671

          #5
          How a centre should be done!
          What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
          5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
          Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15282

            #6
            Going together

            just to re-iterate, this is just a test mule cabinet, not intended to be a "finished" product, though it will likely end up doing yeoman duties for me for a little while...


            Next step is gluing the front panel to the test box made from two of the Denovo enclosures plus overlapping top and bottom panels. That box was assembled, though not completed trimming, earlier this summer. So, the "connecting" boards top and bottom still need end trimming with a router. It doesn't affect what we're doing here for the time being...


            Click image for larger version

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            From a top view, one can see the bracing pieces of the Denovo cabinet. This basic box is pretty stout and as a result rather heavy... it's half a cubic foot for each woofer, 28L total for both. Crossovers could be installed inside, but binding post plates will be installed so that test crossovers can be external. All pretty routine stuff...


            Click image for larger version

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            The felt pad from the tweeter test cabinet will be further trimmed for the midrange driver clearance and installed on the finished test cabinet once rounders are done and drivers are loaded.


            Click image for larger version

Name:	Tweeter-Mid Felt Rebate SS.jpg
Views:	2
Size:	80.2 KB
ID:	865705
            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • Bear
              Super Senior Member
              • Dec 2008
              • 1038

              #7
              Looks like the cabinet is in the 26"-wide range? A two pack of the PE cabs would be 32", but that would seem like it may be overkill for what the woofers require.
              Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

              Comment

              • Steve Manning
                Moderator
                • Dec 2006
                • 1890

                #8
                First go around will be very similar to this concept which is in the 22" - 24" range.


                Click image for larger version

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                Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                Comment

                • Bear
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 1038

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Steve Manning
                  First go around will be very similar to this concept which is in the 22" - 24" range.
                  Got it. That seems closer to what I'd expect. A pair of 508s shouldn't need a 30L cabinet.
                  Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15282

                    #10
                    not for a basic CC. But it's a question of what I could cobble together quickly, and that meant mating two of the Denovo's up with a custom front panel.

                    Also, I intend to expand the concept to a 3.5 way using the Anarchy 554, two each in series for the 0.5 way and the main LF path. So imagine another pair of woofers flanking the center two, just acting as 0.5 way.

                    Needs must... I haven't had a weekend free for working on this in weeks, and will only have Sunday free this coming weekend - another logistics trip Friday/Saturday.


                    The cabinet has had the joining boards trimmed and the front panel round overs done.


                    Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_8974.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	76.1 KB
ID:	865712
                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
                    Modula Neo DCC
                    Modula MT XE
                    Modula Xtreme
                    Isiris
                    Wavecor Ardent

                    SMJ
                    Minerva Monitor
                    Calliope
                    Ardent D

                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                    Modula PWB
                    Calliope CC Supreme
                    Natalie P Ultra
                    Natalie P Supreme
                    Janus BP1 Sub


                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • rick844
                      Senior Member
                      • Jun 2019
                      • 232

                      #11
                      Originally posted by JonMarsh
                      not for a basic CC. But it's a question of what I could cobble together quickly, and that meant mating two of the Denovo's up with a custom front panel.

                      Also, I intend to expand the concept to a 3.5 way using the Anarchy 554, two each in series for the 0.5 way and the main LF path. So imagine another pair of woofers flanking the center two, just acting as 0.5 way.

                      Needs must... I haven't had a weekend free for working on this in weeks, and will only have Sunday free this coming weekend - another logistics trip Friday/Saturday.


                      The cabinet has had the joining boards trimmed and the front panel round overs done.


                      [ATTACH=CONFIG]30756[/ATTACH]
                      Very cool looking. Curious why the Baltic birch for the front panel yet mdf for the rest. Is there a reason to not do the whole thing in Baltic birch?

                      Comment

                      • Steve Manning
                        Moderator
                        • Dec 2006
                        • 1890

                        #12
                        Originally posted by rick844
                        Very cool looking. Curious why the Baltic birch for the front panel yet mdf for the rest. Is there a reason to not do the whole thing in Baltic birch?
                        The basic reason was time, that and he has taken most of his tools to Idaho. ...... Jon had the pre-made boxes on hand so all he had to do was make the baffle and glue it all together. Also, I think if you look close, that's bamboo, not BB.
                        Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                        WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                        Comment

                        • rick844
                          Senior Member
                          • Jun 2019
                          • 232

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Steve Manning
                          The basic reason was time, that and he has taken most of his tools to Idaho. ...... Jon had the pre-made boxes on hand so all he had to do was make the baffle and glue it all together. Also, I think if you look close, that's bamboo, not BB.
                          Ah, makes sense. Didn't know bamboo was dense enough for speaker building. Looks cool as heck.

                          Comment

                          • Horio
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2014
                            • 158

                            #14
                            Interesting concept. Will be following this thread.

                            I'm still hoping for a Wavecor Ardent CC speaker to match up with my towers...:W

                            Comment

                            • Steve Manning
                              Moderator
                              • Dec 2006
                              • 1890

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Horio
                              Interesting concept. Will be following this thread.

                              I'm still hoping for a Wavecor Ardent CC speaker to match up with my towers...:W
                              This could very well do the trick for you.
                              Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                              WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                              Comment

                              • Carl V
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 2005
                                • 269

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Horio
                                Interesting concept. Will be following this thread.

                                I'm still hoping for a Wavecor Ardent CC speaker to match up with my towers...:W
                                Rick Craig of SELAH auido did a ardent inspired CC for a couple of guys here. Just saying.


                                WARCC

                                Magnifico & magnifico BE

                                Comment

                                • xsilverjag
                                  Junior Member
                                  • Feb 2014
                                  • 8

                                  #17
                                  Looks awesome I look forward to see the progress here!

                                  Comment

                                  • rsbonini
                                    Junior Member
                                    • Feb 2019
                                    • 14

                                    #18
                                    Been intrigued by the Dueland crossover concept ever since reading the original paper on it.

                                    The driver selection here seems to be quite high in performance for dollar and I've always liked dome midranges. Very likely to build the towers should they ever come to fruition.

                                    John, would you be willing to design a strictly 3-way version of the crossover? With stereo subs I don't think the 0.5 way is necessary and would offer some appreciable size and cost reduction for those so inclined.

                                    Comment

                                    • JonMarsh
                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 15282

                                      #19
                                      Well, this will be a strictly three way version. At this point, finishing some things for a project in process for Steve is taking priority, but I'm retiring the end of the month and relocating- the test cabinet is sitting in the hall way with the box with the drivers right next to it! So it's next up on the action plan.

                                      And I already have a proof of concept crossover worked up, based on measurements, so this should move pretty quickly after the relocation is finished in January.

                                      the idea of a 3.5 way was in case there was interesting from my compatriot to have a tower version.
                                      the AudioWorx
                                      Natalie P
                                      M8ta
                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                      Modula MT XE
                                      Modula Xtreme
                                      Isiris
                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                      SMJ
                                      Minerva Monitor
                                      Calliope
                                      Ardent D

                                      In Development...
                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                      Obi-Wan
                                      Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                      Modula PWB
                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                      Comment

                                      • rsbonini
                                        Junior Member
                                        • Feb 2019
                                        • 14

                                        #20
                                        Sorry, I meant a 3 way version of the tower using the same driver compliment as this center.

                                        I recently built a center channel, Zaph's ZD3C with a different tweeter (you actually commented on that thread, thanks again). The sound quality of that center is so impressive I'm considering replacing the commercial towers it's currently paired with, with a DIY venture.

                                        The combination of the Dueland crossover, a dome midrange, and the value proposition of the drivers, would make a 3 way version of the tower the most compelling option I've seen.

                                        Comment

                                        • Steve Manning
                                          Moderator
                                          • Dec 2006
                                          • 1890

                                          #21
                                          That would be the Ardent D project ..... Dueland crossover .... same mid and tweeter ..... different woofers. There are plans to use the same mid and tweeter, though use a less pricey woofer as an option. As to when ..... TBD.
                                          Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                          WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                          Comment

                                          • rsbonini
                                            Junior Member
                                            • Feb 2019
                                            • 14

                                            #22
                                            Ah, I see. Looking at the Ardent D thread, it uses the DA25 tweeter instead. JonMarsh mentions this project and the tweeter difference there.

                                            Was the different tweeter selection mostly due to the physical dimensions of the DA25 and the constraints of a CC layout, or for other reasons?

                                            Comment

                                            • Steve Manning
                                              Moderator
                                              • Dec 2006
                                              • 1890

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by rsbonini
                                              Ah, I see. Looking at the Ardent D thread, it uses the DA25 tweeter instead. JonMarsh mentions this project and the tweeter difference there.

                                              Was the different tweeter selection mostly due to the physical dimensions of the DA25 and the constraints of a CC layout, or for other reasons?
                                              The DA25 is a bit of pain with it's size. As you mentioned we are looking at other tweeters as well as a custom mounting plate for the DA25 and the Morel mid, allowing us to use them in this configuration.
                                              Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                              WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                              Comment

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