Keep TD10m or is there an alternative that meets my needs?

Collapse
X
 
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts
  • lbstyling
    Member
    • Oct 2008
    • 80

    Keep TD10m or is there an alternative that meets my needs?

    Hi all!

    It's been quite some time!

    Hope you are all well!

    I have a speaker that is strapped together to work in my demo room right now, but will need to move to making the final aesthetically pleasing version in the next year once the extension I'm building for my house is complete.

    It's a 2 way.

    JBL 2452SL 1.5 inch exit compression driver on top in a JMLC 350hz horn (yes yes, I know!- please form an orderly queue to slate the horn choice - lol)

    The bass is a AE TD10m driver.

    The problem is that aesthetically, I would like a narrow baffle. Say 7 inch or so? Narrower the better really.

    The horn sounds great running down to 550hz (to my ears) and I like the visuals of the big horn on top.

    So I'm looking for a bass driver to replace the TD 10m.

    It will cross over to 3 subs and is powered by a PC front end (JRiver) into a Hypex Fusion active 3 way amplifier (250w or 500w RMS clean amplification available for the bass channel), so EQ is no problem.

    I'm looking for a suggestion for the best driver to cover 70hz to 600hz (ISH) with distortions as low as my TD10m or lower, and capability of over 110db at 1m cleanly (distant seating from speakers). Low dynamic compression is a tier 2 want.

    Is the purefi my only choice? I don't need the bass extension, but dont know how these drivers compare at high SPLs when only targeting 70hz bass extension.

    Cabinet volume is ideally under 0.07m3 (if I calculated it right)
  • Face
    Senior Member
    • Mar 2007
    • 995

    #2
    I would say you already have the best driver for that application, if not the 12M or 15M.

    Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
    SEOS 12/AE TD10M Front Stage in Progress

    Comment

    • lbstyling
      Member
      • Oct 2008
      • 80

      #3
      Originally posted by Face
      I would say you already have the best driver for that application, if not the 12M or 15M.

      Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
      I know, I know!

      Originally, the 15m was the dream!

      I really want a narrow baffle though! This has to fit in a modern style open plan house, and will likely be made of white Corian to match the kitchen.

      I know the purefi driver would probably do it? Its a lot of cash for a driver that's not going to get used under 70hz though. I take it the Textreme SB driver isn't out yet?

      Comment

      • Bear
        Super Senior Member
        • Dec 2008
        • 1038

        #4
        Originally posted by lbstyling
        I know, I know!

        Originally, the 15m was the dream!

        I really want a narrow baffle though! This has to fit in a modern style open plan house, and will likely be made of white Corian to match the kitchen.

        I know the purefi driver would probably do it? Its a lot of cash for a driver that's not going to get used under 70hz though. I take it the Textreme SB driver isn't out yet?
        You've mentioned baffle width, but not height or depth. For a 7" baffle width, you are looking at ~5.5" of internal width inside the cabinet. That requires a 15cm or smaller driver, which may look odd compared to the horn (modern vs steam punk aesthetic...). To get to 110dB, that's going to take multiple drivers. If you want 110dB at 70Hz, the bidding probably starts at 4. There's simply no replacement for displacement. I'd recommend looking at something like the SB15NBAC30-4 in a 2x2 series-parallel arrangement. Since you are crossing over the subs at 70 Hz, venting doesn't matter, and you can put these bad boys in about a half cubic foot (14L) net sealed cabinet. The pair in parallel would be rolled off for bafflestep with a single coil, though you do end up with some potential phasing issues going this approach. Whether that's audible to you or not is a different story.

        The big downside to this approach is that a ~24" tall array of 15cm woofers would not require a very deep cabinet to hit 14L (internal dimensions 24x5.5x6.5). That will give you a very slim look, but the rear wave will need to be dealt with (extra depth filled with foam/damping).
        Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

        Comment

        • Face
          Senior Member
          • Mar 2007
          • 995

          #5
          Originally posted by lbstyling
          I know, I know!

          Originally, the 15m was the dream!

          I really want a narrow baffle though! This has to fit in a modern style open plan house, and will likely be made of white Corian to match the kitchen.

          I know the purefi driver would probably do it? Its a lot of cash for a driver that's not going to get used under 70hz though. I take it the Textreme SB driver isn't out yet?
          I know someone with an extra pair of 15Ms...just trying to help.

          Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
          SEOS 12/AE TD10M Front Stage in Progress

          Comment

          • Scottg
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2006
            • 335

            #6
            ..narrow baffle with 350 Hz horn?

            Error. Error. Does not compute! :P



            At that low a freq. you could have the driver(*s) on the sides of the cabinet while having a 7" max frontal width to the cabinet.

            *perhaps compound driver loading provided the driver's aren't more than 3.5" in depth.

            Comment

            • Face
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2007
              • 995

              #7
              Originally posted by Scottg
              ..narrow baffle with 350 Hz horn?

              Error. Error. Does not compute! [emoji14]



              At that low a freq. you could have the driver(*s) on the sides of the cabinet while having a 7" max frontal width to the cabinet.

              *perhaps compound driver loading provided the driver's aren't more than 3.5" in depth.
              You don't want to cross a 350hz horn at 350hz. 600hz is more realistic and wouldn't work with a side mounted midwoofer.

              Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
              SEOS 12/AE TD10M Front Stage in Progress

              Comment

              • Scottg
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2006
                • 335

                #8
                It depends on the crossover and the wavelength. 7" (wavelength) is around 1.9 kHz. From there it's more a matter of driver beaming and driver depth in relation to other drivers (if any). (..8" drivers generally tend to start beaming around 1 kHz.)

                Alternatively,

                You could also "hide" an up-firing woofer right behind the horn (..and could even make it cardioid, at a penalty of spl/non-linear distortion).


                Or perhaps if front-firing: a vertical array of smaller drivers.

                Comment

                • lbstyling
                  Member
                  • Oct 2008
                  • 80

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Bear
                  You've mentioned baffle width, but not height or depth. For a 7" baffle width, you are looking at ~5.5" of internal width inside the cabinet. That requires a 15cm or smaller driver, which may look odd compared to the horn (modern vs steam punk aesthetic...). To get to 110dB, that's going to take multiple drivers. If you want 110dB at 70Hz, the bidding probably starts at 4. There's simply no replacement for displacement. I'd recommend looking at something like the SB15NBAC30-4 in a 2x2 series-parallel arrangement. Since you are crossing over the subs at 70 Hz, venting doesn't matter, and you can put these bad boys in about a half cubic foot (14L) net sealed cabinet. The pair in parallel would be rolled off for bafflestep with a single coil, though you do end up with some potential phasing issues going this approach. Whether that's audible to you or not is a different story.

                  The big downside to this approach is that a ~24" tall array of 15cm woofers would not require a very deep cabinet to hit 14L (internal dimensions 24x5.5x6.5). That will give you a very slim look, but the rear wave will need to be dealt with (extra depth filled with foam/damping).
                  So I really need to give some better information, and constraints to move forward productively methinks.

                  Here is an image of the original proposed design. (The driver in this image is the TD10M.)

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	Qf9UPhM.jpg
Views:	102
Size:	80.2 KB
ID:	935266

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	jsNfwOd.png
Views:	96
Size:	88.6 KB
ID:	935267

                  When I laser cut some test sections, and put the CAD speaker in a drawing of the living space, it was just too dominant to get it past the boss.8O

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	aSlZX2w.jpg
Views:	81
Size:	1.16 MB
ID:	935268

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	OovzROi.jpg
Views:	75
Size:	1.73 MB
ID:	935269

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	ncKRWg4.jpg
Views:	96
Size:	188.7 KB
ID:	935270


                  Dimensions.

                  Having looked at it closely the limits on dimensions for the bass cabinet are the following
                  Height: 1000mm and 1150mm
                  Width: Up to 220mm (ish)
                  Depth: More flexible: Ideally 300mm, but even over 400mm is not outrageous.

                  Frequency range

                  As the spec for this design is pushing the limits, I can make some adjustments to the target response. I would like flexibility for the horn to be changed over at a later date (I would like to try a CD horn at a later date if I could find one that went down low enough!- I'm thinking at this stage I will have to 'roll my own':W)

                  60hz to 600hz would be great for the exact horn and driver I have now, but 80hz to 900hz would give me the flexibility to play with CD horns later.

                  Originally posted by Face
                  I know someone with an extra pair of 15Ms...just trying to help.

                  Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
                  I wish! Quote from the Missus: 'Unless its got SMEG written on it, you got no chance.' :lol:

                  Originally posted by Scottg
                  ..narrow baffle with 350 Hz horn?

                  Error. Error. Does not compute! :P

                  At that low a freq. you could have the driver(*s) on the sides of the cabinet while having a 7" max frontal width to the cabinet.

                  *perhaps compound driver loading provided the driver's aren't more than 3.5" in depth.
                  A 3 way with a side firing bass driver for 80hz to 200hz had crossed my mind....:B

                  Originally posted by Face
                  You don't want to cross a 350hz horn at 350hz. 600hz is more realistic and wouldn't work with a side mounted midwoofer.

                  Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
                  Originally posted by Scottg
                  It depends on the crossover and the wavelength. 7" (wavelength) is around 1.9 kHz. From there it's more a matter of driver beaming and driver depth in relation to other drivers (if any). (..8" drivers generally tend to start beaming around 1 kHz.)

                  Alternatively,

                  You could also "hide" an up-firing woofer right behind the horn (..and could even make it cardioid, at a penalty of spl/non-linear distortion).


                  Or perhaps if front-firing: a vertical array of smaller drivers.
                  I did draw a version with a upward firing 12" driver (JBL 2206) that I have laying about, but the cabinet will be too narrow for these units now.

                  Is it a reasonably possible to get a single 6 inch driver down to 200hz at 110db SPL with low distortion? Assuming 200hz is the highest you can go with side mounted woofers?

                  Anyway, just for background, here are a few interesting pics:

                  The room (Bath, UK) (I designed it and am building it myself)

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	Hp3IRpj.jpg
Views:	76
Size:	3.99 MB
ID:	935271

                  The horns in the temporary man cave (using JM labs 816s as the bass for now)

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	ppJG8eq.jpg
Views:	81
Size:	793.6 KB
ID:	935272

                  The compression driver (JBL 2452SL) on my 3D printed horn interface that matches the exit angles of the driver (1.5 inch exit) to the horn (2 inch throat)

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	HIG65SI.jpg
Views:	81
Size:	1.43 MB
ID:	935273

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	QYNgrxb.jpg
Views:	81
Size:	2.37 MB
ID:	935274

                  Click image for larger version

Name:	Fu4DdJF.jpg
Views:	73
Size:	2.62 MB
ID:	935275
                  Last edited by theSven; 02 May 2023, 15:20 Tuesday. Reason: Update image location

                  Comment

                  • Scottg
                    Senior Member
                    • Nov 2006
                    • 335

                    #10
                    Given the aesthetic *constraints, I'd be tempted to turn the horn into a mold - and then use that mold to recast it clear:




                    *no matter what you do with the large white horns (narrow midbass stand mount etc..), they are going to dominate the room aesthetically. (..this is ok as an artistic "base": where you design the room around the horns, but otherwise it's going to "clash".) Clear horns are still going to dominate, but far less so relative to their profile.


                    Regardless: personally I'd do it as if the horn was it's own "curiosity" (with little footers) just resting on top of a cabinet (or integrated cabinet) that looked more like a console or built-in (either separated/2 cabinets or just one single long cabinet housing both midbass's).

                    Slab Audio has a nice modern aesthetic (though it's LCR HT-Soundbar sort):

                    Ultra-rich audio meets bespoke home furnishings.


                    Something like that with angled L + R TD10's would look good (IMO) with the horns on little footers resting on top.

                    Comment

                    • lbstyling
                      Member
                      • Oct 2008
                      • 80

                      #11
                      I am considering something like this for the centre speaker...(brain ticking away on that one)

                      Also having got further into the building construction, I am now considering changing to a SEOS horn and keeping the TD10m (and leaving space for the ultimate TD15m at a later date)

                      It would solve the space issue, and surprisingly SWIMBO is relatively keen on the idea!8O

                      This could fit in a in wall corner horn....

                      It would solve the rack space issue, and surprisingly SWIMBO is relatively keen on the idea!8O

                      An alternative may be the Denovo CX15 coax driver, but unless I get some distortion data on it, I cannot go with this option.

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	POgR0OW.jpg
Views:	94
Size:	277.9 KB
ID:	935277

                      That is quite impressive though, especially as its a Coax, as this is the same for vertical as it is for horizontal!8O
                      Last edited by theSven; 02 May 2023, 15:27 Tuesday. Reason: Update image location

                      Comment

                      • AJINFLA
                        Senior Member
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 680

                        #12
                        Originally posted by lbstyling
                        I would like a narrow baffle. Say 7 inch or so? Narrower the better really.

                        Hypex Fusion active 3 way amplifier (250w or 500w RMS clean amplification available for the bass channel), so EQ is no problem.

                        I'm looking for a suggestion for the best driver to cover 70hz to 600hz (ISH) with distortions as low as my TD10m or lower, and capability of over 110db at 1m cleanly (distant seating from speakers). Low dynamic compression is a tier 2 want.

                        Is the purefi my only choice?
                        No.
                        Make the baffle 7.5-8", still very narrow.
                        4 x 708s https://www.diysoundgroup.com/speaker-parts.html
                        4 x 558 only if you must have 7" wide baffle, which will barely be noticeable vs 8" sitting under horn. Not a compromise I would make, YMMV.
                        Both will require stabilizing legs or feet with that big horn atop, so its not like you save floor space either.

                        cheers,

                        AJ
                        Manufacturer

                        Comment

                        Working...
                        😀
                        😂
                        🥰
                        😘
                        🤢
                        😎
                        😞
                        😡
                        👍
                        👎
                        Searching...Please wait.
                        An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because you have logged in since the previous page was loaded.

                        Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                        An unexpected error was returned: 'Your submission could not be processed because the token has expired.

                        Please push the back button and reload the previous window.'
                        An internal error has occurred and the module cannot be displayed.
                        There are no results that meet this criteria.
                        Search Result for "|||"