My first project is a 4 way speaker...

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  • kimmosto
    Moderator
    • Dec 2006
    • 584

    ^I wouldn't count on that because limited angle set causes error to power & DI calculation. Nice vertical off-axis responses are partly result of graphical interpolation. Either full 0-90 or 0-180 deg sector with 10 deg step is at least recommended (though it looks that current VCAD version does not overweight the angle closest to 90 deg).
    Probably already wrote, but I wouldn't optimize anything before actual full data. One good reason against tweeter tracing & simulation is that traced data measured in IEC baffle at 316 mm is not compatible with far field measurement in actual box.
    VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

    Comment

    • cochinada
      Senior Member
      • May 2014
      • 658

      But you told me at the time that there was no need to take measures on the vertical plan. I'm not seeing how it would be possible to do it without a very strange contraption that it would be feasible only for a very small speaker as it would need almost to fluctuate in space. Moreover I understood that the horizontal measures would do and were to be copied to the respective vertical ones. In other words, "T_1000mm hor 040.txt" would be taken also as "T_1000mm ver 040.txt" in the absence of the last and so on. Did I misunderstand you? If not than my data is very real.
      Joaquim

      DIY 4 way speakers.
      DIY subwoofers.
      Zaph ZD3C.

      Comment

      • kimmosto
        Moderator
        • Dec 2006
        • 584

        ^I did not mean actual vertical measurements. If you have 0, 30 and 60 deg, those will be the only directions simulation is using in both horizontal and vertical plane, pos and neg. Vertical plane is much more sensitive to lobing and therefore angle step should be much less than 30 deg and coverage wider to get better average.
        VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

        Comment

        • cochinada
          Senior Member
          • May 2014
          • 658

          OK then you misunderstood what I said.
          For the current tweeter I have 12 measures per driver, from 0 to 160º. What I'm saying is that the simulation I made with the original tweeter must be correct (2nd picture in #598 ). Wouldn't you agree?
          Joaquim

          DIY 4 way speakers.
          DIY subwoofers.
          Zaph ZD3C.

          Comment

          • kimmosto
            Moderator
            • Dec 2006
            • 584

            ^Of course.
            But I'd like to "warn" that power response tilt of new design looks too shallow and highest XO is quite low. Resolution will drop a bit due to lower DI. My biased opinion is that very original version (v03) is still valid. It's also without weakening of tweeter's high pass with resistor (towards 1st order which might have small part in tweeter's accident).
            Last edited by kimmosto; 16 January 2019, 08:33 Wednesday.
            VituixCAD, Features, User manual, Measurements with CLIO, ARTA, REW, SoundEasy, Download

            Comment

            • cochinada
              Senior Member
              • May 2014
              • 658

              Power response tilt is -6dB/Octave on new design as well. Maybe it is an optical illusion.

              Let me share a story of a 3rd opinion that is certainly not biased because mine can be as much as yours.

              A friend of mine that listened to my speakers many times and has a golden ear has always commented something like this: your speakers sound very well and the low extension is superb and very well controlled but I just have two remarks; 1st they have a very narrow vertical window and as soon as we move up or down a bit they sound very differently. The 2nd thing he pointed, although he emphasized it was a matter of his personal taste, was that the tweeter sounded a bit too high and he even suggested about 1dB!

              I value his opinion in these matters even better than mine because he's capable of listening to things that pass unnoticed to me. I can give several examples. One time one of the 4 woofers become disconnected and he said that something was not right. He has also detected this last time when my tweeter broke due to metal fatigue and when with the grills it was making some 'crrrrrr' noises. Another, that my speakers left and right were connected in reverse and so on and so forth.

              The reason I'm telling this is because I didn't pay attention to the vertical response until he nagged me over and over again and I was a bit astonished when I confirmed what he said, which is clearly visible in the Directivit (ver) chart, specially in this kind of view. Considering the tweeter level, it is also true that above 10kHz it is a bit high.

              So, and to conclude, in my next XO I will have these two issues corrected one way or another. I already pointed out some things that I'm not very happy in the new version and I welcome any constructive opinions very much but I will not compromise by keeping the same faults. I'd rather live with new ones instead.

              P.S: new tweeter (and the current one as well) seems perfectly capable to go as low as 2KHz. An attenuate resistor looks unavoidable because sensitivity is higher than 95dB and most likely I will need to sacrifice a couple of dBs in the total response.
              Joaquim

              DIY 4 way speakers.
              DIY subwoofers.
              Zaph ZD3C.

              Comment

              • cochinada
                Senior Member
                • May 2014
                • 658

                Did a search but found nothing.
                Does anyone knows how TW29BN and TW29DN compare, namely in terms of distortion and so on? The price difference is still considerable.
                Joaquim

                DIY 4 way speakers.
                DIY subwoofers.
                Zaph ZD3C.

                Comment

                • cochinada
                  Senior Member
                  • May 2014
                  • 658

                  So far I've narrowed my list to three candidates:

                  SEAS T35C002
                  Satori TW29BN-B
                  Satori TW29DN-B

                  All have pros ans cons. TW29DN-B is probably the most cost wise option. The SEAS is interesting but its dome is too big and prominent, which would place the respective acoustic center way out of alignment with my mediums and there is also the extra challenge of making the custom plate as the original has a subtle waveguide.

                  Any of the Satori should be easier to adapt as I would only need a flat outer ring. The beryllium must have the lowest distortion of all although I don't know how the TW29DN-B behaves in this regard. I only saw real measures of the TW29R-B and TW29RN-B.

                  There seems to be a little bump above 10KHz for the TW29DN-B that is not so present in the beryllium. Curiously the neodymium version measured by Troels has a greater bump than the TW29R measured by HiFi Compass. I would like to see both measured by the same in order to take any conclusions.

                  If it wasn't for this bump and if I knew that in terms of distortion the difference for the beryllium was not significant I would probably chose the cheapest (TW29DN-B).

                  I need to think about it carefully and meanwhile hopefully someone will take real measures of it. (perhaps HiFi Compass )
                  Joaquim

                  DIY 4 way speakers.
                  DIY subwoofers.
                  Zaph ZD3C.

                  Comment

                  • cochinada
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2014
                    • 658

                    Six panels done. 38 to go...

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                    Last edited by theSven; 26 March 2023, 13:02 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                    Joaquim

                    DIY 4 way speakers.
                    DIY subwoofers.
                    Zaph ZD3C.

                    Comment

                    • Zvu
                      Senior Member
                      • Oct 2013
                      • 434

                      Great stuff Joaquim. Are you making it out of wood or styrofoam ,
                      Tesla; George Carlin;

                      Comment

                      • cochinada
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2014
                        • 658

                        Hi zvu!

                        This is styrofoam. Manufacturer is Vicoustic. I don't even want to think if it was wood because it was a nightmare to glue these things to the ceiling. During the process two of them felt on my head when I was gluing another one. As a matter of fact they have two premium versions in wood, much heavier of course but they need to be fixed and not glued.

                        As if I didn't already have all sorts of problems that one can possibly think of I now have a new one: some other panels also to be glued on the ceiling must have some manufacturing defect as the support guy from Vicoustic just told me that "we never received any complain about these panels before". Of course it had to be me...

                        Take a look at the picture below. It's not very clear but the surrounding in white is higher than the inside where the glue is applied and you might have guessed already, prevents any contact with the surface making it impossible to glue.
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                        I'm talking about these panels.
                        Last edited by theSven; 26 March 2023, 13:03 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                        Joaquim

                        DIY 4 way speakers.
                        DIY subwoofers.
                        Zaph ZD3C.

                        Comment

                        • sdl2112
                          Senior Member
                          • Mar 2006
                          • 571

                          Nice Joaquim. You do seem to have bad luck but great perseverance! What is your overall plan....38 to go...are you covering your whole room��

                          Comment

                          • cochinada
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2014
                            • 658

                            Thanks. I guess we can say that. :roll:

                            The plan is indeed to treat all the walls and ceiling except of course the one that leads to the balcony as here there is not much I can do except closing the curtains.

                            The project uses 4 different panels, all from Vicoustic and was done by them as well.

                            Wavewood - absorption/diffraction
                            Cinema Round - absorption
                            Multifuser DC2 - diffraction
                            and the 'problematic' Flat Panel 60.4 M1 FS - absorption

                            This is the goal...
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                            18 panels on the ceiling plus these 26 gives 44.
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                            To summarize they dictated pure absorption on the front wall (mostly behind each speaker and including the corners) and above the speakers, pure diffraction in the ceiling above listening position and then a mixture of absorption/diffraction on the other two walls.
                            Last edited by theSven; 26 March 2023, 12:34 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                            Joaquim

                            DIY 4 way speakers.
                            DIY subwoofers.
                            Zaph ZD3C.

                            Comment

                            • cochinada
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2014
                              • 658

                              It turns out that this glue requires a minimum of 1 hour of pressing so...
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                              waiting...

                              After more than 2 hours just to be on the safe side... success!!! Four more to go...
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                              Last edited by theSven; 26 March 2023, 12:34 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                              Joaquim

                              DIY 4 way speakers.
                              DIY subwoofers.
                              Zaph ZD3C.

                              Comment

                              • ergo
                                Senior Member
                                • Mar 2005
                                • 675

                                Very nice cheap and effective way to apply that pressure - great idea !

                                Comment

                                • cochinada
                                  Senior Member
                                  • May 2014
                                  • 658

                                  Originally posted by ergo
                                  Very nice cheap and effective way to apply that pressure - great idea !
                                  Indeed but to be fair this was an idea of the supplier as they have already faced the problem and know that would be impossible to glue these panels to the ceiling with this slow dry glue with just bare hands. The just lend me these contraptions.
                                  Joaquim

                                  DIY 4 way speakers.
                                  DIY subwoofers.
                                  Zaph ZD3C.

                                  Comment

                                  • 5th element
                                    Supreme Being Moderator
                                    • Sep 2009
                                    • 1671

                                    Shower curtain poles would work well for that too!
                                    What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                                    5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                                    Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                                    Comment

                                    • cochinada
                                      Senior Member
                                      • May 2014
                                      • 658

                                      Great idea as well! You would just need to find away like they did to attach some cross at one end.
                                      Joaquim

                                      DIY 4 way speakers.
                                      DIY subwoofers.
                                      Zaph ZD3C.

                                      Comment

                                      • cochinada
                                        Senior Member
                                        • May 2014
                                        • 658

                                        Ceiling done!

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                                        ...and big surprise! I confess I was a bit disappointed after gluing the DC2 as I was listening to some resonances with one particular and demanding CD but now after the flat panels are mounted those have disappeared!
                                        This is very encouraging and at the same time rewarding for all the work and cost it took so far so I can't wait to find out what the wall treatment will do on top of this.

                                        This is the CD I'm talking about for the most curious out there.
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                                        Last edited by theSven; 26 March 2023, 13:03 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                        Joaquim

                                        DIY 4 way speakers.
                                        DIY subwoofers.
                                        Zaph ZD3C.

                                        Comment

                                        • sdl2112
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Mar 2006
                                          • 571

                                          Well done Joaquim. Inspiring as well...I would like to treat my room too but I don't see a good way. I would like to address some bass issues. How did you decide on what and where for your treatment. Do you have measurements at your listening position? Again it looks very professional.

                                          Comment

                                          • cochinada
                                            Senior Member
                                            • May 2014
                                            • 658

                                            Thanks a lot. I basically set a budget and those guys at Vicoustic made the project. I sent them some measures that I took some time ago but I believe most of the project is based on simulation software. For that I also gave them all the dimensions and even a SketchUp model of my living room. Anyway I will take and compare with new measures when all treatment is set and done.
                                            Joaquim

                                            DIY 4 way speakers.
                                            DIY subwoofers.
                                            Zaph ZD3C.

                                            Comment

                                            • Dave Bullet
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Jul 2007
                                              • 474

                                              Looking great! going the extra mile on room treatment must make a noticeable difference. I wonder how compromised my setup is now :-)

                                              In terms of your crossover - I've often wondered in very large speaker designs - why the XO point is low between Mid and tweeters. I would move it up. I wonder whether the dynamics suffer with a dome tweeter with a XO at or below 2KHz.... especially when you have small mids and these could probably play higher without off-axis compromises.

                                              Comment

                                              • cochinada
                                                Senior Member
                                                • May 2014
                                                • 658

                                                Job done! I wish I could add well done but I did a stupid mistake right at the end. You know the saying "measure twice and cut once"? Well, here I would change it to "measure twice and glue once".

                                                I was feeling dead tired and my back was killing me when I finished so I put aside the mere idea of removing and correcting the position of those few panels. Actually I don't think it makes a difference from the project although visually it bothers me. To give you an idea of the amount of work it needs, this took me about 5 hours to mount all the wall panels and I used only 3 of 7 glue tubes. I guess the Vicoustic people are too generous when it comes to foresee the amount of glue needed...

                                                Here are some pictures and all I can say right now is that the RT has diminished noticeably. Even the sound of walking and stumping your feet on the floor is much different from the rest of the house. This is now a much more silent room.
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                                                One picture shows my mistake. Well, actually two but it is much more evident in one.

                                                dave, I wouldn't know about that but currently my XO is around 2350Hz and I can guarantee that there is certainly no lack of dynamics with these speakers.
                                                To give you an example, the other day I listened to Beethoven's Wellington's Victory and I was seriously worried that my speakers would explode or fall apart with the drivers shooting in my direction so vivid and real were the sounds of all those shots and explosions. The same with Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture (Full with Cannons). Fortunately nothing bad happened so I can continue scaring the living daylight of my neighbors.:B
                                                Last edited by theSven; 26 March 2023, 13:04 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                                Joaquim

                                                DIY 4 way speakers.
                                                DIY subwoofers.
                                                Zaph ZD3C.

                                                Comment

                                                • TEK
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • Oct 2002
                                                  • 1670

                                                  Looks very nice!
                                                  I tried to spot your mistake, but I dis not find it - so I donnot think it can be of that mutch importance...
                                                  -TEK


                                                  Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                                  Comment

                                                  • cochinada
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • May 2014
                                                    • 658

                                                    Originally posted by TEK
                                                    Looks very nice!
                                                    I tried to spot your mistake, but I dis not find it - so I donnot think it can be of that mutch importance...
                                                    Hi Tek!
                                                    It's right there staring at me each time I look at the tv...
                                                    Joaquim

                                                    DIY 4 way speakers.
                                                    DIY subwoofers.
                                                    Zaph ZD3C.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • TEK
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Oct 2002
                                                      • 1670

                                                      It’s just your mind.
                                                      Now, just convince yourself that it is supposed to be like that - problem solved!
                                                      -TEK


                                                      Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                                      Comment

                                                      • cochinada
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • May 2014
                                                        • 658

                                                        Originally posted by TEK
                                                        It’s just your mind.
                                                        Now, just convince yourself that it is supposed to be like that - problem solved!
                                                        I wish it was but can't you see? The 3 panels on the right are not aligned with the 4 on the left man! They are about 10cm too low.
                                                        Joaquim

                                                        DIY 4 way speakers.
                                                        DIY subwoofers.
                                                        Zaph ZD3C.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • cochinada
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • May 2014
                                                          • 658

                                                          I know, I know... I'm too lazy, specially when it is about measuring but I gather the troops (me, myself and I) and decided to re-calibrate my Anthem after the room acoustic treatment.
                                                          I used everything as automatic and I have a Low Shelf Filter with Gain=8dB @20Hz in my Crown XTI2002 that powers all 12"woofers on the front speakers.
                                                          here are the curves:

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                                                          I already knew I had strong bass...

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                                                          Notice the boost on the low frequencies. My theory is that those two 12" woofers facing the window on the right cause early reflections much stronger than the front left speaker.

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                                                          A dip @450Hz...

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                                                          A dip @400Hz...

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                                                          This was and still is a big surprise because I was certainly not expecting to see this huge peak close to 50Hz for my center channel and can't find any explanation for it...
                                                          Just compare with the response from Zaph...
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                                                          It's curious that there is also a peak around 50Hz like in the center channel.
                                                          Last edited by theSven; 26 March 2023, 13:05 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                                          Joaquim

                                                          DIY 4 way speakers.
                                                          DIY subwoofers.
                                                          Zaph ZD3C.

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15259

                                                            One of your images is not displaying- or it's VERY slow loading, and I have a rather fast connection for most things... it seems you have two images besides the Zaph one?
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                                                            • cochinada
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • May 2014
                                                              • 658

                                                              Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                              One of your images is not displaying- or it's VERY slow loading, and I have a rather fast connection for most things... it seems you have two images besides the Zaph one?
                                                              That's very strange... I have 5 images above the Zaph one and 1 below. Here I can see them perfectly. Weird...:roll:

                                                              What about now? I've used the BBCode thumbnail linked.

                                                              Next step is to use REW for measuring the response of my front speakers in my stereo system and import something (convolution filter maybe?) to JRiver for room correction but since I never used REW this might take a while... :roll:

                                                              I also need to buy a 5m USB cable for connecting the DAC to my PC instead of the HTPC because stupid Windows 10 is not able to install the mic on the HTPC. :x
                                                              Joaquim

                                                              DIY 4 way speakers.
                                                              DIY subwoofers.
                                                              Zaph ZD3C.

                                                              Comment

                                                              • 5th element
                                                                Supreme Being Moderator
                                                                • Sep 2009
                                                                • 1671

                                                                A big peak at 50Hz just sounds like a room mode to me.
                                                                What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                                                                5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                                                                Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                                                                Comment

                                                                • cochinada
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • May 2014
                                                                  • 658

                                                                  Originally posted by 5th element
                                                                  A big peak at 50Hz just sounds like a room mode to me.
                                                                  Maybe it is, I don't know but why is it so noticeable on the center channel that shouldn't even go so low?
                                                                  Joaquim

                                                                  DIY 4 way speakers.
                                                                  DIY subwoofers.
                                                                  Zaph ZD3C.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Dave Bullet
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Jul 2007
                                                                    • 474

                                                                    Zaphs measurements look like a nearfield / farfield splice ignoring room modes (sensible since everyone's rooms are different and it would be hard to draw bass sensitivity conclusions and anechoic F3 with these in). Also he used a massive scale which smoothes everything out.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • cochinada
                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                      • May 2014
                                                                      • 658

                                                                      Indeed you are both right and you have a very good point there Dave. I do seem to have a room mode around 45Hz.
                                                                      Nevertheless I'm surprised that just two small 7" drives can excite so much the room at that frequency, even above what my LF does (!) although the front speakers have a solid and much higher response @20 Hz which was naturally expected with 4 x 12" drives, but a fact is a fact...
                                                                      Joaquim

                                                                      DIY 4 way speakers.
                                                                      DIY subwoofers.
                                                                      Zaph ZD3C.

                                                                      Comment

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