Three Way Evil Design Study

[benthe8track]

Is there anything magic about the m52? I'd be curious to hear if there is any difference between running off a NAS or HTPC.
I just got a text that the Acuton's showed up in Calgary from a friendly forum member. Should give me something to do during days off!

[JonMarsh]

Is there anything magic about the m52? I'd be curious to hear if there is any difference between running off a NAS or HTPC.
I just got a text that the Acuton's showed up in Calgary from a friendly forum member. Should give me something to do during days off!

I wouldn't say there's anything "magic" about the M52, but it is a better piece than most people who criticize the price on forums under stand. It's a three drive RAID5 array, and it uses special Seagate drives that were developed for very high reliability 24/7 video use by taking a high grad 7200 RPM enterprise drive and slowing it down to 5900 RPM and doing a few other tweaks. If one drive goes south, no data loss, and you just pop in another drive and the system rebuilds the RAID5 configuration automatically. I got an "open box" unit from either Crutchfield or Audio Advisor (don't remember which, I think it was Crutchfield) and that was discounted, but looked like it was new with all items with them. Same thing with the M50.

One thing I've read about the M50 is that it's NAS functionality is rather different from most music servers, particularly as it doesn't rely on UPNP or DLNA.


A post about the networking behavior and performance of the M50 from another forum in England:

I have had a few Streamers. Apple TV, OPPO bdp, Linn Akurate DS1, Marantz NA 7004, and a denon that I can not remember the model ( My dad uses this now ).

I connected the Nad up, after a little tinkering it found my Nas drive and started indexing files. This is another reason why this is such a great streamer.

All other streamers I have used will find the nas but will not index the files. So searching and random playback is limited to litterally the main directory and will not see sub directories unless you actively crawl thru them. The Nad is very much like a pc based media player in this respect.

It indexed my 6tb of files on my Readnas Duo actually quite quickly. And displays them just like windows media player or alike.

The nad also has Tunein radio service, as does the Cyrus, which is great and Internet radio sounds great thru it.

But today I had a couple of friends come over with their players to put up against the Nad. I did all the connecting and controlling so was not blind for me, but was a true blind test for my 2 friends. My equipment is in a different room to my listening room so there was no guessing or peaking to see what was playing.
We had one CAPS zuma with Off ramp 5 USB to spdif converter and one Bryston BDP2. All players connected to my Power Inspired AG 1500 regenerator using Atlas mains blocks and Mark Grant power cords.

So all units minus a dac, operating as purely digital transports in to my RS20i into my ada amps and B&W diamond speakers.

Again we used pink noise and spl meter to ensure level matching between all units. And used a selection of tracks selected by each of us, a fully eclectic mix. From dub, reggae, classical, rock and dance. From 44/16 all the way to 192/24 files.

These are the general thought of the 3 players by all of us.

Player A sounded cold, highly detailed but flat, not very engaging and not at all musical very digital.

Player B sounded much more engaging, a bit more dynamic and had a nice air and warmth to the sound. But still had a digital sounding edge to it.

Player C was very open, dynamic, detailed, warm. Great attack and wonderful bass. We all very much liked player C with its very engaging and musical sound.

After all the files were played we chose our winner, player C, and I divulged the results.

A - CAPS Zuma
B - Bryston BDP2
C - Nad M50

I actually had preconceptions that the Bryston would be the leader of the pack. But it was the Nad that took first place.

Sound quality between the Nad and Bryston were quite similar but in my system we prefered the Nad, and factor in price difference and control point software the Nad won hands down.

The M50 does not need UPNP or DLNA support to do what it does with NAS, so it's very flexible about what kind of hardware setup it will work with, and it does all the file indexing and folder viewing just like for the M52 or for an external USB drive on the front panel connector. Something to keep in mind is that the M50 is a memory player; that is, it has a big block of RAM that it loads audio files into, and plays from locally- network performance is not an issue, unless the network stops working! In fact, for the built in drive, (which is actually a DVD drive) if you set the configuration to play disks instead of ripping them, it still behaves like a ripper, just loading the CD into RAM, and playing it from there. Drive performance is not an issue in the same way as for a CD player.

[PMazz]

You guys have it all wrong about those doodads that Jon has. It has nothing to do with EMF fields or anything else electronic. The first one sent to him mapped his particular brain waves and when its siblings were in town, used that knowledge to get Jon to react positively to this "new" sound. It, of course, is all in Jon's head, being alien technology and all. Soon, everyone will have them and the invasion can begin. We will all welcome our new alien overlords....

Or, they could still be the fabled yak foreskin removal devices. :banana:

[5th element]

Yak-yak yak-yak. Ack-ack ack-ack?



Don't worry at least we've all got our hifis sorted should the invasion begin!

[JonMarsh]

I think you BOTH must have had a very good Saturday night to come up with these comments on Sunday morning!

But we're having a great cool Sunday morning and I smell more work on the Wavecor Ardents in the air!

[JonMarsh]

well, been an interesting few days...

got an early announcement of a new re-org, I'll have a new boss starting today, as well quite a few other people- how that is going to work out remains to be seen; in the conference call yesterday some people were jokingly asking our old one, "How could you do this to us? " but I'm sure it wasn't mostly his choice - but unfortunately at the heart of those quips lies more than a small kernel of truth.

BUT, I do have approval already lined up for taking of July 3, so there's a four day weekend coming up for Isiris work, though my honey informs me she expects to have permission for her Porsche to be in the Danville July 4 parade, so I can't plan on having free rein for speaker work THAT day!

Ordered some Cardas connectors and bits for managing the cabinet inter-wiring when the two pieces are refinished and connected as one, and they should be here with plenty of time in advance.

Also was turned on to an interesting idea for speaker cabinet support from my Munich colleague, coming from Acoustic Revive (the concept, not a product suitable to the Isiris)



The basic idea is to have a highly lossy cabinet mounting base which quickly turns vibration into heat instead of conducting it into the floor... interesting idea. My friend says he's seen implementations of it which clearly work, and he noticed quite a bit of energy conducted into the floor from the Isiris. Well, one more thing to look into. We're also looking at borrowing a trick I'm implementing in my nCore 400 build (4:1 input transformers) to better optimize the gain structure and DAC operating point of his system, so the cross pollination from his visit looks to continue a while...

May try the speaker mount base first with the Ardents, should be just a tad easier!

[5th element]

Yeah I've read about and sort of use sloppy lossy coupling to the floor (basically letting the cabinets sit on carpet ). I think the misconception here is that if it isn't rigid it's going to sway around like a drunken hippy, but I guess the real idea is to set the resonance of the 'decoupling' as it were to a frequency well below what the loudspeakers will reproduce, so in effect nothing sets up gross movement, it's just the energy involved in vibrating the cabinets is absorbed rather than transmitted to the floor.

[JonMarsh]

In this case it makes some sense to me, because you're coupling the speaker via a compressed sand trap of sorts, and the vibration is converted to friction and heat pretty much immediate- such is the theory.

In fact, they have a product that could be directly usable with the Wavecor Ardent- now the decision to make is DIY or Buy... free time being what it is, I may consider going with the latter...


Image not available


I suspect that a trick to using this is figuring out the center of mass/weight of the speaker base and being sure that is located in the center of the platform.

Things to ponder....

[5th element]

Somewhat recently I've been made to appreciate, even if you've got the free time, sometimes it is still more productive to have someone else do the hard work for you, even if you have to pay a little for it.

[Hank]

Or, they could still be the fabled yak foreskin removal devices.

PMazz, you took the words right outta my mouth. My famous formula for uber expensive electrolytic caps that I could sell to the cable elevator buyers (Jon, tell me you're not one): Tibetan Yak foreskin and copper foil with mesquite bean juice electrolyte. What set Jon and 5th element off into snake oil land? Was there a full moon Friday the 13th?:stupid2:

[JonMarsh]

PMazz, you took the words right outta my mouth. My famous formula for uber expensive electrolytic caps that I could sell to the cable elevator buyers (Jon, tell me you're not one): Tibetan Yak foreskin and copper foil with mesquite bean juice electrolyte. What set Jon and 5th element off into snake oil land? Was there a full moon Friday the 13th?:stupid2:

Nah, it was the Wednesday before hand. And I've heard the alleged devices frequently in my colleagues system in Munich, and was surprised to hear a similar "signature" improvement and characteristic in my own system in Danville.

Well, gee, Hank, can you ship those caps in time for my nCore 400 build later this year? :rofl: And what color are they? I prefer matt black, but a "dusty silver" would be OK, too... :B

[Hank]

Tan - rough texture. Only. nCore, huh? Hate to tell ya, but they don't like switch mode apps. Stick to analogue and you're in for a treat. Start saving up $$ for them.

[JonP]

PMazz, you took the words right outta my mouth. My famous formula for uber expensive electrolytic caps that I could sell to the cable elevator buyers (Jon, tell me you're not one): Tibetan Yak foreskin and copper foil with mesquite bean juice electrolyte. What set Jon and 5th element off into snake oil land? Was there a full moon Friday the 13th?:stupid2:

Ahhh, but what about Castor Bean electrolyte?? Think of the Ricin, and the "That which does not kill you makes you stronger" principal... Your hearing could take on much stronger properties..... :twisted:

[JonMarsh]

Mmm, hey, what people do in the privacy of their own homes is their own business, right? But ricin sounds like trying to add a degree of danger to music and audio to bring it on a par with motorcycling... is that really needed? :W

BTW, speaking of motorcycling, I'm having a bit of a GAS attack, girl friend hopes I'll resist it, but I dunno... I found a VFR1200 up in Sacramento at Roseland Honda at a good price, I've been wanting one of these for years. I have a '98 VFR800 I love, but a little bigger and faster is appealing... It's weird, when I was in Europe hiking in 2012, I must have seen four or five of these, and since being back in the USA, I haven't seen one in Northern CA... seemingly rarer than my NSX.


Image not available


Of course, this looks like more of an Evil Twin kind of thing...

Maybe it's time to do something with those ill gotten gains from the stock market... :B

[5th element]

That is very black and then what isn't black goes perfectly with it.

[JonMarsh]

You'll appreciate this- the VFR1200 sells pretty well in Europe, enough that they usually have two colors available whereas we only have 1- and in the US, no one ever has the Honda hard luggage on hand (according to the forums) and the solution seems to be ordering them through a few different dealers in the UK- I just bookmarked the more popular ones... since 2010, I have never seen one of these on the road in the US, but in Europe two weeks in 2012 I saw three, two with Russian plates on them!

Of course, they have their quirks, including the torque suck out Honda placed in 1st and 2nd gear below 5000 RPM, it's thought by some because they didn't introduce it with traction control, but even the newest one with traction control has this. I think it's more likely an issue with the torque handling capability of the DCT clutches and gear box, and they neutered the conventional six speed the same way to avoid making the DCT model look bad.

Well, there's a plug and play fix for that that only costs about $60 and there's one sitting on my dining room table right now...



Blue is the stock torque and power in 1st and 2nd; red is with the "fix". Only works on the manual 6 speed. Of course, though I think the DCT concept is cool, the bike I'm looking at is a manual six speed.



You can't tell from this picture, but the fit and finish on the VFR1200 may be the best Honda has ever done- they made a big deal about that when it was introduced (probably to help justify the high price!). Having seen them in person, I have to agree.

I did pick up a used silver AXIO tail bag in mint condition on eBay yesterday- apparently one of my favorite US tank bag manufacturers has gone belly up. Cest la vie...

Got a call back from the dealer with OTD price; now I've just got to count the pennies in my piggy bank and see if I have enough... that could take a while!

Better just go back to work on wiring up the Wavecor Ardents!

[JonMarsh]

BTW, back on topic, so far I've skated by, not moving the speakers back to the original position, but putting the couch back up where she likes it- so I have a chair behind the couch, and that's working pretty nicely. Of course, in their "temporary" new position, they sound much better in the dining room, which is open behind the family room (no door and only a slight border of wall... ) With luck I may be able to make this the new "status quo".

[JonMarsh]

Cardas hardware, wiring, more lacquer and sealer, and sanding disks have all arrived- I should be geared up for the 4th of July weekend to get started on the midrange cabinet mods, refinish, and top to bottom assembly.

The only fly in the ointment is both our special customer and the home team (new manager) are aghast to discover I have the temerity to take July 3 off, approved two months ago by my previous manager, as they both have plans for what I need to be doing that day, and would like to rescind this. Of course, I can't make both happy- what my new boss wants me to do on the 3rd conflicts with what the customer wants me to do also, so I think it would be a much better state of affairs if they're both unhappy, but I AM happy!

How that is going to work out is a big question mark... I suppose it will be answered by Wednesday?

This is really getting wearisome. :roll:

[Paul W]

Jon...you know the cure

[Carl V]

Of course, in their "temporary" new position, they sound much better in the dining room, With luck I may be able to make this the new "status quo".

Good luck with that. But heh, you seemed to have found a one in a million.
Porsche fanatic, engineer, Hiker, music lover, DIY person etc., etc.,

[JonMarsh]

Good luck with that. But heh, you seemed to have found a one in a million.
Porsche fanatic, engineer, Hiker, music lover, DIY person etc., etc.,

You bet your sweet bippy I did! Oh, and this year she's even figured out how to get her garden to really work- she got this book ("How to Grow More Vegetables* (*Than you ever thought possible on less land than you can imagine)), and went to a seminar locally by the author, John Jeavons, and as I like to kid her (having seen her gardens for the last several years) it's like she got a green thumb transplanted on both hands! :T

I'll take pictures and post later this weekend, we're packing up to head to Sacramento to pick up the new bike.

[JonMarsh]

Jon...you know the cure

yeah, Paul, but I've sort of got this golden ball and chain around my ankle... there's a lot of good reasons to stick this out at least this year, if not a couple more. And I'm close to being done accumulating the toys I think I "need" in retirement...

[JonMarsh]

This afternoon we had a lengthy listening session, with several specific pieces of music which I'm quite familiar with, several of which my colleague is also similarly familiar.

From the "Music of Cuba" (hand carried import) the first track "Hoy Se Cumplen Seis Semanas"
From "Flute Dreams", the cut "Mystic Temple"
From the Curandero CD "Aras", the title cut "Aras"
From the Poor Clares CD "Songs for Midwinter" "Ny Kirree of Niaghtey (the sheep are under the snow)
From Plays Bach: The 50th Anniversary Edition" the last cut "Sleepers Awake" - (live recording)
From Jazz at the Pawnshop, 30th Anniversary edition, the 4th cut "High Life"
From Shelby Lynn, "Just a little Lovin'" the title cut "Just a little Lovin'"

The cuts we both have a lot of experience with are "Aras", "Sleepers Awake", and "High Life". We were doing some comparative listening also, after making some changes in the system configuration. This is where things veer off into the realm of what as an engineer I would call a dose of unreality, except that I heard what I heard, and what has been heard cannot be unheard. Maybe I can just write off that part as being alien abduction or something similar, but it's something that makes me fairly uncomfortable as an engineer. At the end of that phase we also finally sorted out the DCD-8 settings and got the 10MHz clock integrated into the re-clocking flow.

First , let me say very quickly that my friend was quite favorably impressed with the Isiris, which he likes to call "California Isis". (as opposed to Colorado Isis, I suppose? ) Like my own listening impressions, he finds the midrange and treble to be very fast and clean, and in that regard he was also favorably impressed with my "little" Cambridge Audio 840W, given that he's used to the likes of the Boulder 2060 and CAT JL-1 Signature tube mono blocks. He thought the system reminded him of the Kharma Exquisite Mini, (which have a different Accuton 7" midwoofer and custom Accuton diamond tweeter), except that the Isiris has more midrange and bass authority and might even be a bit sweeter and cleaner in the top end (but then he never heard those speakers with anything beyond his Antelope Zodiac Golds, without the DCD8 re-clocking.) (BTW, though the Exquisite Mini is a smallish two way system, which retailed for ~45K USD per pair.) He was somewhat amazed at how integrated sounding they were even sitting close up, or standing. Credit the NatalieP style crossover for that, I think, and I did my best to explain how that works- he has some engineering background, but he's in top management for sales and marketing reporting to the CEO, so expectations should be reasonable.

OK, the weirdness came in about half way through our listening session, after we'd been through most of the cuts for the first time- then he did what he warned in advance he would, bringing out some Japanese items which are battery powered, setting four of them in specific places, one on top of the power amp where the power transformer would be, one on the power supply for the TotalDAC-D1, one on top of the inductors each in the low frequency crossovers. We had last been listening for a second time to "Aras" after some small speaker positioning adjustments, and after making this "update", not touching the volume control from the previous listening just a couple of minutes before, listened to "Aras' again.

Previously I had been discussing my plans for further room treatments, addressing possible sources of comb filtering and the like, and relating it to things I normally heard in his system the last time I was there. Well, after he setup his devices, turning them on, we listened again, and if I had been blindfolded, I would have sworn someone had changed out a piece of gear or installed some room treatments, as the focus and integration of depth of acoustic space increased quite markedly for the same piece of music. To use a photographic analog, it's like switching between using a 70-150mm zoom lens on my medium format Pentax camera, with the throw set to 120mm, then switching to the 120mm macro prime lens on the same camera. Yes, the field of view is the same, but the rendering of micro contrast, definition, and depth of view is quite different, and substantially improved to the critical eye. (I could spend a lot of time going into detail about how different lenses render things like micro contrast in center versus edges and depth related chromatic aberration as you go in and out of focus, because the transition to out of focus is not consistent color wise in lesser lenses; obviously, black and white targets are most adept at identifying the short comings, but you see that even in rendering a color image- but this isn't the place or time for such a lengthy divergence. If you're not a bit of a photography nut, you'll just have to trust me on this one, I guess.... )

So, these devices just render things more in focus- that's the easiest way to describe it, considering the contrast and interaction of instrument envelope wave shapes and harmonic timbre. The claim is they reduce EMI. Do they? There are some tuned RF absorbent structures internally, and some active circuitry- he had some of our RF applications guys look them, but they don't really have a clear idea of what this is doing or how it works, or how to test it, other than listening.

My colleague is always on the look out for things like this, and has tested and rejected quite a few, but kept some of them- his wife, a physician, is also a music lover, though probably almost as skeptical as I am, but does endorse the "tweaks" they've kept.

We went back through several more cuts, never touching the volume control, and turning them on and off. We also went through the DCD8 configuration menus for about 10 minutes, resolved an issue with how the secondary digital domain was setup, and got re-clocking with the 10MHz Rubidium oscillator properly functional, which was most audible on some of the "audiophile" cuts like the Jazz at the Pawnshop "High Life" and Shelby Lynn's "Just a little Lovin'" Considering the state of playback at the end of the afternoon versus the beginning, I would call that a productive session.

So, as I say, I can't unhear what I've heard; I spent some time later in the evening listening alone to a variety of favorite cuts. At least a few of these gizmo's are going into the system. You guys and Lex may want to take a vote and kick me off the moderator role, as I've obviously lost my mind... but what has been heard cannot be unheard. But I won't mind, I'll just be listening to some more music at home...

And then I'll be looking forward to when I have some of my local engineering colleagues up to listen to the Isiris and system, as I've long promised to do.... I'll feel like I'm cheating, because I won't tell them about the tweak units, just let them listen and think it's just my engineering expertise at work...

Well, check out this post on Stereophile by John Atkinson, the guy who does all their measurements....

http://www.stereophile.com/content/rmaf-2014-john-atkinson-wraps-his-wreport

When I entered the On A Higher Note room on the Marriott's mezzanine, Synergistic Research's Ted Denney was talking about the sonic benefits of his new Atmosphere ($1995, the vertical black tower between the equipment racks in the photograph). "RF pollution affects how we perceive sound," Ted said," explaining that that is why our systems unpredictably sound good or bad. The Atmosphere, he said, creates a binaural RF field that swamps external RF pollution, allowing our perception to operate correctly. It affects the listener, not the system. Synergistic offers modules for $495 each that, with an iPad app, allow the Atmosphere's effect to be adjusted to the listener's taste; I think Ted said there were 4096 possible combinations available, with each module offering four. "Yeah, right," I was thinking.
Ted played music on the Mola Mola/Eclipse/Luxman system with the Atmosphere turned on, to get listeners used to the sound, which was indeed excellent. He then turned off the Atmosphere and to my shock, given my skepticism about Ted's claims, the sound did indeed get worse, the soundstage shrinking and a hard edge appearing to midrange sounds. WTF!?!?! My world tilted a little.

Still in a state of shock—I knew what I had heard—I asked Ted for more detail. The Atmosphere is said to generate very-low-frequency radio wave at the Schumann Resonance Frequency and its harmonics. Schumann resonances occur because the space between the surface of the Earth and the conductive ionosphere acts as a closed waveguide and the fundamental frequency is around 7Hz. This did nothing to dispel my skepticism: an antenna that could efficiently propagate radio waves with such a low frequency would have to be small country-sized, not a slim tower. But something was going on here.

this is very interesting, because this Schumann thing is also behind the Acoustic Revive products, the REM-8 and the RR-777. Interesting that other people are doing this, and that John Atkinson had this experience....

[wkhanna]

You guys and Lex may want to take a vote and kick me off the moderator role, as I've obviously lost my mind... but what has been heard cannot be unheard....

Scary, isn’t it?
We spend our lifetimes devoted to science & the natural world, always taking the pragmatic approach to all observations & the supporting evidence.

I mean crap, since I was first introduced to the Scientific Method in 5th grade I thought it was synonymous with the Golden Rule.
Things like gods, ghosts, mysticism, fortune telling, superstition, ancient aliens, afterlife, you name it…..
….these are all things contrived by a weak-willed human race solely to comfort or deny acknowledgement of its own inescapable ephemeral existence.

True enlightenment comes from the likes of men like Archimedes, Copernicus, Michelangelo, Nikola Tesla & Einstein.
Our heroes, these are the giants of thought, reason & rationality among mere mortal men.
Men brave enough to dispel the most widely held misconceived ‘truths’ of their day.
Some of them killed for simply disrupting the status quo.
Others were killed out of the fear from those with power who understood how the truth would unshackle the masses, themselves imprisoned by their ignorance while feeding the coffers of their oppressive overlords.



Then, one day…… out of the blue…… it happens.

Your speakers have been painstakingly positioned within one eighth inch after months of trial & error followed by months more of evaluation.

Your software is tweaked to the n’th degree, your room treatments perfected, your albums de-magnetized, your SeeDee’s degaussed, your speaker cables elevated, your exact seating position referenced better than the cheek-marks in Homer Simpson’s couch.

All your electronics are on their separate 20 amp circuit with its custom Plitron toroidal transformer, all grounded by the 30 foot cooper rod you buried yourself.

The fridge is off, the HVAC is off, the dog is at the kennel, the cat with your sister, the wife at the spa & the kid’s hamster wheel is locked (make that double locked).

REW, ARTA & CLIO all have confirmed the entire bandwidth extending both far below & above the threshold of even the most superhuman hearing ability at your exact listening position is as flat as a Kansas cornfield.

The system has been equalizing to its stable operating temperature for over an hour, your ears have just the day previous been professionally cleaned (once-a-week appointments booked thru 2020), the lights dimmed & your daily meditational exercises completed an hour ago.

You settle in (perfectly) to your listening chair & queue up an old favorite, one you a more familiar with than you are your V own wife of 27 years.

And suddenly, it sounds totally different.
The world as we knew it, defined it & proved it over & over…… Still it comes crashing down around your feet.
The once grand pillars of science, reason & logic lay crumbled, scattered about & in ruin like the ancient temples of the Greeks.
What the hell just happened?
Surely science must have a reasonable, rational, verifiable answer!

Psycho-acoustics?
Sun spots?
El Niño?
A slight shift the Earth’s magnetic pole?
Low-flying aircraft?
Maybe an out-of-spec polypropylene metallized film cap in that three-year-old custom modded amp?

Then your buddy calls……
"Hey Joe, how’s the system these days?
By the way, when I was over yesterday, I lost one of those $78 Anti-Matter Worm Hole Trans-Teleportation Fantastical Audio Doctor Black Dots we were laughing about.
You haven't seen it on your floor anywhere, have you?"

This hypothetical scenario is more than just a cynical platitude, however.
Passions run deep, V deep, in this hobby.
Unfortunately, that same passion seems to permeate many of the audio industries’ marketing departments as well.

One thing I found over the recent years, as the internet has made possible numerous audio forums, is that there are many, many opinions.
Some are based on reference materials (seldom associated with acoustic sciences), some on personal experience (often with no direct comparisons or benchmark references), while most seem based purely on a belief system with no validated factual basis.
And, all one has to do is mention the word “cable”, & all hell breaks loose.

One of the problems that makes establishing a reference we all can agree on is the fact each of our systems sounds different than anybody else’s’.

Even if we have the same exact equipment as someone else, our room is different, our power (grid) is different (unless of course you are PewterTA with your V own fancy schmancy PS Audio P10 power regenerator… & yes, that is more than a slight tinge of jealousy in there) & our priorities of what ‘good’ sound is… that is different too……… & then of course, there is the fact that we all hear differently.

Fortunately there is one thing most, if not all of us, can find in common, & that is change.
It is our ability to recognize difference or a change, which gives us insight.
& human nature compels us to identify the cause of the change.

As audiophiles, we tend to be type ‘A’ with a compulsion for control.
& when no plausible scientific, reasonable or terrestrial explanation is accessible we become quite uncomfortable.
I call this the ‘Squirm’ factor.

The fact is, until we ourselves become gods, there will always be some things in the world as we know it to be which simply have no viable explanation.

So, just what process does one use to deal with this Squirm factor…?
Well, this seems about as good a time as any to invoke the Kübler-Ross model.
It goes sort of like this:

First there is denial.
Then anger.
Next come bargaining & depression.
And ultimately, acceptance.

[speedle]

That's a fantastic post!

[JonMarsh]

Doing another controlled test with this is planned for the big holiday break, after installing and burning in the Mutec 3+ and a new linear supply for the rubidium clock. I've got another REW-8 to put into the mix, and another Schuman generator.

Now, a point I've occasionally overlooked is that the Schuman generator is not supposed to alter the sound field, but alter how we neurologically process the sound field. Hmmm. Could be one of those things that I may not understand or agree that it's doing what's claimed, other than, if it sounds better, consistently, I WILL use it...

And yes, very nice post Bill!

[JonMarsh]

OK, since we're discussing an update to this design now, as of May 25, 2021, I figure maybe I can get away with bumping this original thread so that if any of the newer members want to read what this is all about, and have an abundance of WAY too much time on their hands, at least they won't have to go hunting for the thread...

Just don't rat me out to the other moderators...

[JonMarsh]

bass cabinet upgrades

Making some slight upgrades on the bass cabinets while I have things torn down for woofer and wiring updates.

Fossilized LBL is dense and hard, and these changes from the original high grade wood screws may strictly speaking be unnecessary, but using wood screws direct into the cabinet twice or more sort of, well, bugs me. Call in minor OCD.


So, the cabinet bottom has had 10-24 EZ-LOK threaded inserts installed, and will be using 2" stainless 10-24 button head bolts for re-mounting the base after connector and wiring updates...




And I settled on something a bit "odd" or off the beaten track for the woofers, where there is not a lot of material on the inside of the woofer cutout- not comfortable with the 10-24 threaded inserts there.

Steve suggested helical inserts, threaded into the cabinet, but being the somewhat lazy wire and sparks guy, I hit on something a bit different - 10-24 Hitachi RIVNUTs.

These are usually used to mount onto sheet material, normally sheet metal, but not necessarily thin, per se.




So, imagine if they're installed into a not quite press fit hole, with some epoxy for security, and when you tighten them down, the expandable part will just about immediately hit the LBL hole and lock things down nice and secure. Well, that's the theory.





All the woofer mounting holes on the first cabinet have been "upgraded". Looks nice from the front, though when things are put together you won't see it.


By Monday when I have the rest of the tools and materials to finish this phase of the design study up, I'll let you know if it worked out.

[CADman_ks]

...



And I settled on something a bit "odd" or off the beaten track for the woofers, where there is not a lot of material on the inside of the woofer cutout- not comfortable with the 10-24 threaded inserts there.

Steve suggested helical inserts, threaded into the cabinet, but being the somewhat lazy wire and sparks guy, I hit on something a bit different - 10-24 Hitachi RIVNUTs.

These are usually used to mount onto sheet material, normally sheet metal, but not necessarily thin, per se.
...

So, imagine if they're installed into a not quite press fit hole, with some epoxy for security, and when you tighten them down, the expandable part will just about immediately hit the LBL hole and lock things down nice and secure. Well, that's the theory.

...

We use those a lot at work, but, we are using them on "thin" sheetmetal, or sheetmetal thickness intended for the nutsert range. We have accidentally tried to use the incorrect thickness range at times. When you do, it does some weird things to those. They are designed to actually deform, and deform quite a bit, to make the mechanical "clamp".

I would be concerned that they may not expand out the way that you're thinking, but rather collapse internally on themselves. I would recommend a test subject first, without the epoxy, but just the wooden hole, before I blazed a trail in the cabinets. The other to note about these, is that IF they do go south, they are not the easiest things to get out. These might even be a little bit harder to remove than mild steel versions, since they are stainless. I've never used the stainless versions, but I would think that they would be harder to deal with.

Good luck!!!

[JonMarsh]

Great advice, a little late, but what the heck!

I'll be letting you guys know how it turns out.

Like I say, I'd never claim to be a wood worker. :W

[CADman_ks]

great advice, a little late, but what the heck!

...

lol...

[Norm]

Reminder.....if using stainless fasteners into the stainless inserts being discussed be sure to use some sort of anti-seize on the threads. Even a little Vaseline if the made for stainless anti-seize compound fails to fall readily to hand. Stainless steel bolt into a threaded stainless steel hole can gall and seize together so hard you'll think someone snuck into the shop and welded them together.

[CADman_ks]

reminder.....if using stainless fasteners into the stainless inserts being discussed be sure to use some sort of anti-seize on the threads. Even a little vaseline if the made for stainless anti-seize compound fails to fall readily to hand. Stainless steel bolt into a threaded stainless steel hole can gall and seize together so hard you'll think someone snuck into the shop and welded them together.

excellent advice!!

[Steve Manning]

Reminder.....if using stainless fasteners into the stainless inserts being discussed be sure to use some sort of anti-seize on the threads. Even a little Vaseline if the made for stainless anti-seize compound fails to fall readily to hand. Stainless steel bolt into a threaded stainless steel hole can gall and seize together so hard you'll think someone snuck into the shop and welded them together.

Good call Norm, one of the reasons I use the brass inserts even though they are not as durable, but sometimes you don't have a choice.

[JonMarsh]

I'd read about that, too, and it's good advice worth repeating!

[JonMarsh]

The new wiring harness is installed, the cabinet base is back on, using the new EZ-LOK inserts and new stainless button head hardware, flipped back over, remounted on plastic bin work stand, and ready for the drivers to be installed as soon as the anti-seize compound get in on Friday, and I get back from CA!

As a Jeno Tihanji, a former colleague from Siemens Semiconductors used to say, "Slow work takes time..."