Build thread: Psalms tower speakers

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  • bimmerguy
    Member
    • Mar 2021
    • 82

    #91
    I've scratched my head for a while about how to deal with the edges of the plywood on the outer baffle. I really don't want the plies telegraphing through the shiny black paint. Gloss black is the absolute worst when it comes to highlighting imperfections. I didn't have a lot of confidence in the old diluted glue trick. Even so, I mixed up some Titebond 3 and water 1:1 and painted it on a test piece. I let it dry thoroughly and gave it a bit of a sanding. It was smooth, but I just didn't have confidence that it soaked in enough to really seal the edge. That method does work nicely for MDF, by the way, where the runny liquid can soak in a lot more. I wanted to completely conceal the edge. Veneer edge banding didn't seem like a good option since I'd then have to seal the veneer for painting, and again, you'd still have edges all the way around. Adding solid edge banding with something like a 1/4" piece would only make the problem worse. Enter my old fiend glazing putty.

    I figured I'd cover all the edges of the 1/2" outer baffle with a thin-ish layer of glazing putty. So I cut the baffles about 1mm undersized all the way around, cutting the long vertical edges at the slight angle required to match the curvature of the side panels. I'm so glad I added those alignment pins. They make for easy and quick alignment when removing and re-installing the outer baffle. Then I added masking tape all the way around to protect the bits I didn't want to get covered with putty.

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    Using the two colors of tape is helpful when sanding as they provide a good contrast to indicate when I'm getting in the danger zone when sanding (blue is the warning zone, green is the danger zone). It would be tragic to sand through the veneer at this stage of the game. Plus the green automotive masking tape is quite a bit superior to the blue stuff from the big box stores. My glazing putty is getting a little old, so it's much more viscous than it should be. This makes it difficult to spread it out smoothly and thinly. I thought about buying a new container of Evercoat Metal Glaze Ultra, but YIKES! When I looked at the prices I decided just to deal with my old stuff. The price of that stuff has more than doubled in the last two years. I made due with extra thick putty. At least I feel like I'm using up the old stuff instead of throwing it away. It still sets up fine and feathers out to a perfectly smooth edge; it just takes more sanding since you have to put it on a little thicker. You can see in the picture below it looks like it was put on a little ham-fisted.

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    But it is still just as easy to sand and comes out nice and smooth. You can see how the layers of tape help indicate when you've have sanded down to the right level. I'm just getting through the blue tape in the picture.

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    Next I removed all the tape. At that point the putty was proud of the surface by the thickness of the tape. I could then easily sand that tiny amount flush without worrying about sanding through the veneer. It turned out better than I thought it would.

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    The outer baffles were cut from a 1/2" sheet of Appleply that was a bit of a banana. When the outer baffle was clamped down to the inner baffle it was perfectly flat. I was concerned when I removed the clamps and the outer baffle returned to its slightly curved shape that the putty would crack. But fortunately it didn't. I guess that makes some sense. In its intended application of autobody work, it has to be able to move slightly as the metal of the car panel expands and contracts slightly with heat and cold. You can see the curve in the picture below. It shouldn't matter too much. When glued on to the inner baffle after painting it will be nice and flat.

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    Comment

    • Steve Manning
      Moderator
      • Dec 2006
      • 1886

      #92
      Despite the obvious PITA, it's a killer look. As an FYI for future endeavors, I don't know it this would help or not. https://www.joewoodworker.com/veneer...-veneering.htm Note the picture of him taping the veneer flat while it dries? I don't know if it would work with the stuff your using or not?
      Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



      WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

      Comment

      • theSven
        Master of None
        • Jan 2014
        • 857

        #93
        bimmerguy Did these towers get finished yet? Been waiting to see some completed photos of this build.
        Painter in training

        Comment

        • bimmerguy
          Member
          • Mar 2021
          • 82

          #94
          Originally posted by svenarajala
          bimmerguy Did these towers get finished yet? Been waiting to see some completed photos of this build.
          Unfortunately not quite yet. I am presently working on the grills - I will be posting the progress soon. I am nearing the point where I need to start painting, but for that I need warmer weather. And except for one week of unseasonably warm temps, spring doesn't seem to want to come this year. We actually still have a little bit of snow on the ground. Sigh. Anyway, since I will be spraying the paint in my garage, and the manufacturer is quite insistent that the temp be above 70 F (21 C) when I do so, I need to wait a bit. It might actually be a few weeks yet.

          Painting is the part that can be the most nerve wracking for me. I've done plenty of painting (I even painted my truck), but I have so much time into the project so far, they stakes are high and there is no margin for error. I've had some challenges with the clear coat in the past (2k true polyurethane), but if I can get it right, it's truly awesome. The depth and gloss are crazy. But I need to manage expectations! So fingers crossed.

          My plan right now is that the grill frames will get two coats of black epoxy primer as a sealer, and then black automotive paint (2-stage paint, left over from my truck) prior to installing the speaker cloth. The front baffles and bases/outriggers will get the same black epoxy primer as a sealer. If necessary they'll then get a couple coats of 2k standard-build primer to give a dead-flat surface. Then about 2-3 coats of black color coat. Then the entire speakers will get about 4 coats of the clear polyurethane. It's a lot of painting and a rather sizable disruption to my garage, but I'm hoping the results will be worth it. Stay tuned!

          I do have a question for all of you: I've been trying to come up with a design for the bases/outriggers. All the ones I've seen are basically just wide pieces of metal that screw into the bottom of the speaker, and have spikes or feet on the end. Has anyone seen something more unique or interesting??

          Comment

          • technodanvan
            Super Senior Member
            • Nov 2009
            • 1012

            #95
            Here are a couple bases Steve did with wood.

            Minerva - I seem to recall the crossover fits inside the base, probably can't go that thick for your build, but you can kinda see the shape he used - I think this could be adapted for a tower.

            DIY (Do it yourself): Cabinetry, speakers, subwoofers, crossovers, measurements. Jon and Thomas have probably designed and built as many speakers as any non-professionals. Who are we kidding? They are pros, they just don't do it for a living. This has got to be one of the most advanced places on the net to talk speaker building, period.


            SMJ Wavecor Ardent - These are what he built for me.

            https://www.htguide.com/forum/missio...ge4#post835758
            - Danny

            Comment

            • theSven
              Master of None
              • Jan 2014
              • 857

              #96
              Originally posted by technodanvan
              Here are a couple bases Steve did with wood.

              Minerva - I seem to recall the crossover fits inside the base, probably can't go that thick for your build, but you can kinda see the shape he used - I think this could be adapted for a tower.

              DIY (Do it yourself): Cabinetry, speakers, subwoofers, crossovers, measurements. Jon and Thomas have probably designed and built as many speakers as any non-professionals. Who are we kidding? They are pros, they just don't do it for a living. This has got to be one of the most advanced places on the net to talk speaker building, period.


              SMJ Wavecor Ardent - These are what he built for me.

              https://www.htguide.com/forum/missio...ge4#post835758
              Having seen the Minerva stands in person I really liked them and asked Steve Manning about doing something similar for an upcoming project I'm working with him on. I also really like the stands for the Calliope, and I had Steve make a set for me when I put that kit together.

              Painter in training

              Comment

              • bimmerguy
                Member
                • Mar 2021
                • 82

                #97
                I've come up with a design for the speaker bases. I'm water-jetting them out as we speak. But more on that in the future.

                On a different note, an unfortunate reality is that my speakers need to have grills. I have very active 4 and 6 year olds, and without the extra protection...well, I shudder to think. Of course they'll be taught not to play near the speakers, but accidents happen.

                My 1/2" Appleply is a bit warped,, and the grills need to be perfectly flat. So I made the grill blanks by laminating two 1/4" Baltic birch pieces together. They had a slight bend in them, too, but I glued them with the warped sides opposed to each other to cancel out the bend. And the veneer glue bond between them made them extra stiff. I used my vacuum press to laminate them. They turned out perfectly flat.

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                I cut the edges to continue the slight angle from the front baffle.

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                Like many speaker grills, mine will be held on with magnets. The plan is to use a magnet in the grill and a magnet in the front baffle. This will result in the grills really snapping into place much more so than if I just used magnets in the grills and a steel chunk in the baffles. To ensure the magnets line up perfectly with each other, I used my homemade dowel centers.

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                I lined up the grill blank with the baffle and tapped on it with a mallet to transfer the marks to that piece. I installed the magnets about 0.010" below the surface so I could put a very thin layer of glazing putting over the top. This sealed the magnet in (I also used thin CA glue) and provided a better surface for the paint to adhere to.

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                Comment

                • bimmerguy
                  Member
                  • Mar 2021
                  • 82

                  #98
                  Next I cut the grooves for the window screen cord that will hold the grill cloth in place. I'd thought about setting up stops on the router table so I didn't cut the grooves all the way through the edge, but then I realized that the grills will be painted and covered so I was able to cut them much more quickly with the table saw. Then I just glued some plugs at the edges and sanded them smooth.

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                  I laid out the cut lines on one of the grills, then cut out the bulk and sanded the inner edge smooth.

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                  I could then use that piece as a template to route the other piece on the router table.

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                  I put a chamfer around the inside-facing perimeter of the cutouts, and a small radius on the outside-facing perimeter of the cutouts. I'm pretty happy with how it turned out.

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                  Comment

                  • bimmerguy
                    Member
                    • Mar 2021
                    • 82

                    #99
                    With my bases figured out, I've been getting wrapped around the axel on the design of the feet. It seems like a minor thing (and it is!) but I've really been wracking my brain about the design, and I think I'm come up with something. I picked up some cold rolled steel bar and will turn it to the shape I want. I'll post pictures when they're done.

                    Comment

                    • technodanvan
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Nov 2009
                      • 1012

                      I'm really looking forward to seeing your plan for the bases. Fantastic work, as always!
                      - Danny

                      Comment

                      • theSven
                        Master of None
                        • Jan 2014
                        • 857

                        Great progress and realization that grills are needed! Better to be safe than sorry on this one. Second that, to see what the base will look like...
                        Painter in training

                        Comment

                        • bimmerguy
                          Member
                          • Mar 2021
                          • 82

                          The speakers are turning out to be quite heavy. So I need bases that are up to the gravitational tug-o-war. I decided to go with 3/8" (9.5mm) hot rolled steel plate (A36). It's probably overkill, but then that's how I roll. They were cut out waterjet, which seemed like the easiest way to get a precise shape that is relatively complex. Cutting them out using my bandsaw would have worked, but the sawed edge would have needed a lot of clean up (as it was, there was still a lot of clean up needed). And truth be told (and the real reason), it was cheaper for me to have a my local, mom-and-pop shop cut them out _and_ supply the material than it would have been for me to source just the material.

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                          Since they are hot rolled steel, there is mill-scale on them. It's got to go. There are several ways of removing mill-scale - media blasting, paint-stripping pads in an angle grinder, very course sandpaper; 3M even makes a special Scotchpad-like pad for angle grinders that works pretty well. But all those methods are either expensive (the 3M pad is $20 and won't last that long), sandpaper dulls extremely quickly and gets gummed up with the mill-scale. Media blasting is an option, but takes forever unless you use very aggressive media - which I don't have in the blast cabinet at the moment, and it's a pain to switch over. So the easiest and cheapest (but not fastest) way to remove mill-scale is to soak the parts in vinegar. I got a gallon of vinegar for under $3, and it turned out to be exactly the right amount.

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                          I let it sit in there overnight (probably about 14 hours total). The mill-scale just brushed right off. You don't need that long, especially if you can set the container out in the sun and warm it up a bit. The other pieces in there are really just to raise the vinegar level up high enough to completely submerge the bases. The bonus was the other parts I put in there had their mill-scale removed to. And since it is vinegar, there is no need to use extra precautions like you would with hydrochloric acid (it does smell though). I actually filtered out the vinegar and put it back into the bottle to use again.

                          The next step was to deal with the rough edge. I'd thought waterjetting the parts was going to leave a nice edge. But no. I am sure it can, but the shop probably used a faster feed rate and courser grit than I was anticipating. It's nothing that a little elbow-grease and some sharp files won't fix. Here's the before and after (well, after and before in this picture).

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                          All the filing left a very sharp edge all the way around on both sides. I actually got several superficial cuts handling them. But I didn't want to just file the sharp edges down since no matter how careful I would be, it wouldn't be consistent along the entire perimeter, and would look especially conspicuous on the curved ends of the "legs". I kept thinking, if this was wood it would be easy just to send it through the router table with a chamfer bit. With steel plate I didn't have a good way to do it...So I sent it through the router table with a chamfer bit anyway. I'll admit I was a bit nervous to do so. I'd routed aluminum before, but A36 is a lot harder than aluminum. I knew the carbide could take it, I was more concerned with my ability to hold the part and keep it from being launched through the wall. I set up the bit to take a very tiny cut - maybe 0.015". And I slowed my router down as low as it would go - probably around 8000 RPM or so.

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                          And it was drama-free. I took another light cut that went equally well. I wasn't looking to get an actual real chamfered edge, I just wanted to remove the burr and sharpness. I like how it turned out.

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                          Next up - the feet and "coasters".

                          Comment

                          • bimmerguy
                            Member
                            • Mar 2021
                            • 82

                            For the feet I started with a 1.25" round bar of cold rolled steel (1018). I cut it into pieces on the band saw and faced and turned them to length on the lathe. Then I drilled and tapped one side to 1/4-20 about 0.875" deep. I wanted them to have a curved profile. This is an easy thing to do if you have a CNC lathe, but in manual lathe world it takes a little more effort. I first turned a 'step function' profile. You can see the progression in the bottom 3 pictures in the collage below.

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                            My little Burmese temples represent a lot of machining time.

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                            I struggled for a bit with how to smooth out the final profile. I don't have a specialized radius turning tool/fixture that will allow me to do that profile. I settled on using the compound of my Clausing lathe to mimic the motion of what a dedicated radius cutter would do. I switched back to my old lantern-style tool post so the rotation of the cutter would be in line with the center of radius of the compound. The fancy quick change tool post does not allow for that geometry. I was very, very careful to set up the cutter at the exact radius and longitudinal position I needed and cranked the lathe up to about as fast as I am comfortable running it. 1700 RPM on the Hardinge is pedestrian; 1700 RPM on the Clausing is frightening. But I needed the speed to cut a smooth arc.

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                            Cold rolled steel is pretty gummy, stringy stuff and getting a good finish off the tool proved to be difficult. After cutting the final arc, I spent a fair bit of time with files and sandpaper trying to get a better finish. My final surface preparation should even out minor imperfections. This is sufficient for now.

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                            Comment

                            • bimmerguy
                              Member
                              • Mar 2021
                              • 82

                              I followed the same basic process to make the caps that will screw on top of the feet. My bandsaw blade was getting a bit dull, so I cut the blanks on my abrasive chop saw - which is why the blanks have the blue oxidized color - they got really hot.

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                              I could think of no way to turn a smooth convex arc of the necessary radius, so I employed the brute force approach. Using my die grinder with a Roloc attachment and some coarse Cubitron II sanding discs, I smoothed out the steps that approximated the final surface. It made a fair bit of nasty metal dust, and I was afraid at first I was going to overshoot and grind away too much, ruining the circular convex profile. But the 1018 steel was hard enough and slow grinding enough that overgrinding wasn't really a concern if you were the least bit careful. I used red layout fluid and scribed a line at the precise thickness so I wouldn't grind down too far on the edge. In the end all 8 pieces turned out remarkably consistent.

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                              Comment

                              • bimmerguy
                                Member
                                • Mar 2021
                                • 82

                                The 'coasters' for the feet come next. I make coasters for all the furniture I make. Usually they are made of wood, but this time the weight is enough that metal is warranted. And I still had some 1018 bar left, so I used that. Holding the pieces with the lathe couldn't be done by chucking them in the 3-jaw since I needed to turn a profile on both sides and they were sufficiently thin that there was nothing to hold on. So I made a small, shallow hole with a center drill and then used the tailstock to push the piece against a firmly mounted backing piece of sufficiently small diameter that I could turn the profile I needed. There was enough pressure to hold the piece solidly that way. I didn't have a quarter-round end mill of the right diameter that was sharp enough to cut anything but butter, so I used a roundover router bit. The carbide is much harder than the mild steel and cut the profile without any trouble. The tiny hole in the center will be turned out in the next step.

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                                I used a ball endmill to cut a divot in the center that was the same radius as the bottom of the feet (I didn't show cutting this radius on the very bottom of the feet). The feet set in this divot in a very satisfyingly snug way. And I used a technique similar to the one I used for turning the side profile of the feet by rotating the lathe compound to cut out a secondary divot in the coasters. Because reasons.

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                                I needed studs to mount in the feet that will then go through the holes in the base plates. The caps will then be screwed onto that, securely mounting the feet to the base. I didn't have any threaded studs, so I made some by cutting some 1/4-20 stainless steel bolts to length and turning the ends smooth. I then Loctite-d them into the feet for a semi-permanent bond.

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                                Now to make sure all that bare steel doesn't rust...

                                Comment

                                • bimmerguy
                                  Member
                                  • Mar 2021
                                  • 82

                                  To give the metal a completely uniform appearance (and obscure/remove the swirl marks left from sanding) I media blasted the parts with glass beads. The glass beads don't remove any metal, they just texture the surface. And they don't leave a rough surface like other blasting media, so the result is not so dull. It does, however, leave a totally uniform texture whose sheen is what I would guess is between eggshell and semi-gloss. The aluminum bits did appear a little brighter due to the nature of aluminum vs steel.

                                  If I'd had stainless steel in the right size I would have used that; but since I used mild steel I needed to do something to prevent it from rusting that would not alter the natural color of the metal. I need to do something, also, to prevent the aluminum trim rings from getting cloudy with oxidation over time. Automotive polyurethane clear coat like I'll be spraying on the rest of the speakers doesn't perform well over bare metal, so I needed something else. I came across a clear product that is made for bare metal, and decided to give it a try. It's called Everbrite, and application is pretty easy. You can brush it or wipe it or spray it. It's self annealing, which mean subsequent coats actually melt in to prior coats - like some lacquers. I chose to spray it with my airbrush. It's not cheap - it's more per ounce than a good automotive clear coat - but I didn't need very much.

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                                  The results are pretty good. It is indeed easy to spray; the self-leveling is great - no orange peel. The only thing I am not as crazy about is that it makes the steel look a little too 'painted'. Almost like they are painted with silver paint rather than just a clear coating on bare metal. But that might not be all bad. I didn't want the feet or the trim rings to be mirror polished as I thought that bright shiny bits in your peripheral vision might be too distracting when watching a movie. That's one of the reasons I bead blasted all the metal parts. Overall I'm pretty satisfied with it. I know the metals are protected and won't experience any rust or clouding over time.

                                  The final thing was to punch out some thin gasket material disks that will interface between the feet (and caps) and the base. I didn't want metal on metal - or rather, painted surface on painted surface. I was worried about marring the finish when I tightened them down (which you can only do by hand, so maybe the risk is minimal). But I also didn't want the risk of any clanging or scratching if there is any vibration.

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                                  Overall I am happy with how the bases and feet turned out. I think they look pretty neat. They were a lot of effort, but in the end I think it was worth it.

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15277

                                    Very nice work, and it's great you have such tooling on hand!
                                    the AudioWorx
                                    Natalie P
                                    M8ta
                                    Modula Neo DCC
                                    Modula MT XE
                                    Modula Xtreme
                                    Isiris
                                    Wavecor Ardent

                                    SMJ
                                    Minerva Monitor
                                    Calliope
                                    Ardent D

                                    In Development...
                                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                    Obi-Wan
                                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                    Modula PWB
                                    Calliope CC Supreme
                                    Natalie P Ultra
                                    Natalie P Supreme
                                    Janus BP1 Sub


                                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                    Comment

                                    • bimmerguy
                                      Member
                                      • Mar 2021
                                      • 82

                                      It's been a long time since my last update. I've put a ton of time in the the speakers, but I have a 4 and 6 year old and they take priority over shop-time. It's also been slow going when I am in the shop. I finally got to the point of gluing the outer piece of the front baffles in place. In retrospect I should have glued up the entire front baffle first, but I was concerned about making the edges of the baffle line up perfectly with the sides where the two parts come together. In the end it turned out fine, but I could probably have saved myself a bit of work with a slightly different order of operations.

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                                      Next I decided to make the threaded inserts for the drivers. Not necessary, but it is in keeping with my needless complexity design philosophy. Plus I really like machining brass. I started out with a bunch of brass rod and lightly knurled it to give the CA glue somewhere to bite.

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                                      Then I cut (parted them off) into bits that were the right length...

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                                      Then I drilled and tapped them. The tweeters and mids were tapped to 6-32, and the woofers and ports were tapped to 8-32.

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                                      To locate the exact location for drilling for the brass inserts I placed the drivers each in their respective cutouts and traced around the inside of the screw holes. Then to precisely mark the center of each traced circle, I made a funny little punch with a locating sleeve that fit perfectly inside the circles. Each circle was similar enough in size that the punch worked for all of them. I'd just line up the sleeve concentric with the circle, drop in the punch and give it a light tap with a hammer to leave a divot big enough for me to start the spotting drill.

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                                      After spot drilling all of them it was just a matter of drilling the holes to final size, putting a dab of CA glue on each brass insert, and tapping them home. I washed the brass bits with acetone to ensure a good bond with the glue.

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                                      Next it's on to prepping for paint.

                                      Comment

                                      • bimmerguy
                                        Member
                                        • Mar 2021
                                        • 82

                                        I've thought a lot about how to mask the speakers for spraying. The easiest way to prevent the paint from getting in the trim ring grooves, it seemed to me, was to use the trim rings themselves. I can't install the rings permanently yet since they can't be there when I cut and polish the clear coat. So I masked the rings themselves, including the tiny edge on the inner diameter. It took quite a while, but should pay dividends when I paint. I think it was easier than trying to mask the grooves themselves. I did the terminal panels, too.

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                                        I needed a way to cover the cutouts for the drivers. Covering all that unsupported area with masking tape would be a bit of a chore; I've had trouble in the past trying to cover large open areas with tape. So I decided to cut some disks out of hardboard to fill in the spaces.

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                                        It took a little sanding to remove the fuzz, but they turned out fine. They are a pretty tight fit, but to be safe they are each held in with a tiny piece of double-sticky masking tap on the top and bottom; the same is true for the trim rings.

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                                        All dolled up with somewhere to go... Ready for painting the front baffles.

                                        Comment

                                        • bimmerguy
                                          Member
                                          • Mar 2021
                                          • 82

                                          Paint! Painting without a paint booth is a bit of an ordeal. I paint in the garage, which means moving things out of there I don't want covered in overspray. The paint consists of 3 coats of epoxy primer, 3 coats of sandable primer, 3-4 coats of basecoat (color), and 5+ coats of clearcoat. The ziricote veneer will only get clear coat, of course. All these paints cure via reaction with an activator; none of them dry in the way alkyd enamel rattle can paint dries.

                                          The parts that will be black will get epoxy primer: the front baffles, bases, and grill frames. The epoxy provides a hermetic seal for the wood and ensures good adhesion to bare metal. I dug out my painting rack/frame thing to hang the bases and grill frames. I was a little concerned with the weight of the bases, but it turned out to not be a problem.

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                                          After you mix the two parts of the epoxy primer together you let it sit there ('induce') for 30 minutes before you spray it. Then you spray 3 coats with 30 minutes between each coat. The epoxy takes by far the longest time to cure of all the paints. You can't really do anything with it for 24 hours, though it is touchable within 2-3 hours. The epoxy paint has an amazingly long pot life up to 168 hours after it's mixed, if you keep a lid on it. It's the slow curing that makes it so tough.

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                                          Using automotive paint on wood is decidedly 'off label'. The paint doesn't react/behave the same on wood as it does on metal. It tends to soak in preferentially in some places and not in others. This leaves a very uneven surface; the grain is much more exaggerated than it is in the bare wood. Once it is sealed this way it is not an issue with the other paint phases.

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                                          So unlike using it on metal, you have to sand the epoxy primer on the plywood just to even out the surface to the point where the sandable primer can take over. Sanding epoxy is a very messy endeavor; the dust sticks to everything even with good extraction on the sander. Here it is, ready for the next stage. It's not pretty, but it's smooth enough that the sandable primer can fill in all the low spots.

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                                          I sanded the grill frames, too, and gave them another couple coats of epoxy primer a couple days later. They won't get sandable primer, basecoat, or clear coat since they'll be covered with speaker fabric. The epoxy primer will provide a very durable surface, and since it is black it will hopefully help make the frames less visible through the fabric. No need for the perfection afforded by sandable primer, basecoat and clearcoat on the frames.

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                                          Comment

                                          • bimmerguy
                                            Member
                                            • Mar 2021
                                            • 82

                                            Sandable primer. This stuff is the opposite of epoxy primer in that it dries almost immediately. And it sprays thick. I have a separate gun for the sandable primer for that reason. It's mixed 4:1 with activator. Pot life is maybe 40 minutes, but it's not around that long. You spray immediately after mixing and wait about 3-5 minutes between coats - just enough to let it flash off. It is very forgiving - it's almost impossible to get a run. And if you do it's easy to sand out.

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                                            True to its name, this stuff is a dream to sand. It sands quickly, feathers out to an infinitely thin edge, and it doesn't clog sandpaper at all if you use the right sandpaper and you're not hamfisted.

                                            You can see the overspray from the epoxy primer all over the garage floor. What a mess. Epoxy primer is definitely the worst stuff to spray in that regard. The sandable primer, due to its thickness and solids content, doesn't aerosolize into the micro particles the epoxy primer does and there is almost no overspray.

                                            Comment

                                            • technodanvan
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Nov 2009
                                              • 1012

                                              You, sir, are ridiculous! This is some serious work!
                                              - Danny

                                              Comment

                                              • bimmerguy
                                                Member
                                                • Mar 2021
                                                • 82

                                                Originally posted by technodanvan
                                                You, sir, are ridiculous!
                                                Guilty as charged!

                                                Comment

                                                • theSven
                                                  Master of None
                                                  • Jan 2014
                                                  • 857

                                                  What was the reason for using epoxy primer vs urethane primer? I would have thought urethane would be good and then automotive paint would spray on nicely. Either way love to see progress on this build and looking forward to the completed build photos. This has been an adventure!
                                                  Painter in training

                                                  Comment

                                                  • bimmerguy
                                                    Member
                                                    • Mar 2021
                                                    • 82

                                                    Originally posted by theSven
                                                    What was the reason for using epoxy primer vs urethane primer?
                                                    My understanding is that the epoxy primer is urethane. As with anything termed 'epoxy' it refers to the fact that two parts are mixed together (usually 1:1). It is called epoxy primer to distinguish it from from the standard 2K sandable primer that is mixed 4:1 primer to activator. The polyurethane clear coat I am spraying is also mixed 1:1 paint to activator - so it too is technically epoxy. All the paints I am using are part of the Southern Polyurethanes paint ecosystem. They are in my experience one of the best automotive paint manufacturers out there; and certainly the best value for money. And their tech support is second to none.

                                                    The epoxy primer is definitely my least favorite to spray. It's probably the easiest paint to have runs if you're not careful, and the overspray gets everywhere. Even though I place a large plastic sheet on the floor, it is a project cleaning up the rest of the garage floor after spraying it. But it is super tough, and it has exceptional adhesion to bare metal and wood. It's used on car frames with no top coat, so it's incredibly durable. I used it not so much for its durability, but for its sealing properties.

                                                    I'll add more updates about spraying the base and clear coats sometime soon.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • bimmerguy
                                                      Member
                                                      • Mar 2021
                                                      • 82

                                                      After the sandable primer is laid down, the next step is blocking. For that I use a long (18 or 24") sanding block with 180 grit sanding mesh on it. This helps ensure that the surface is flat, with no waviness. That works great for a large panel like on my truck, but for the speakers it's a little cumbersome. No matter how flat you try to keep it, you end up catching the edge of one of the cut-outs. So after a few minutes I switched back to a more manageable 9 inch block. I really like working with the sandable primer - it sands so nicely and it doesn't clog up the sandpaper. I remember back in the day you'd sand and the paper would be so clogged after 30 seconds you'd have to switch it out. I sanded down to 220 grit, and was ready for basecoat.

                                                      I like spraying basecoat - it's when the final look of the piece really starts to come out. It's a little less exciting when you spray black, but it's still nice to go from drab grey to gloss black. The basecoat is mixed 1:1 with medium urethane reducer, and a 1:32 shot of clear coat activator for added toughness. The overspray is a pain, but not as bad as epoxy primer.

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                                                      With the masking removed they're starting to look a lot more finished. The final gloss and depth will really come out when the clear coat is applied.

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                                                      The basecoat turned out well - no runs or orange peal. The great thing with the basecoat is that you don't have to do any prep or sanding before spraying clear. As long as you spray the clear within 24 hours nothing extra is needed. So I switched out my setup for clear...

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                                                      It doesn't look like much, but it's everything I need for the spray job. I keep all the spray tools (guns, filters, long q-tips, disposable paint mixing cups, etc) in the blue tool cabinet. I have a few very high quality guns, and a large air compressor with a air dryer built in.

                                                      Here's the setup for spraying clear. The speakers have to be oriented vertically now since all sides will get clear except the bottoms. This meant I could set them on my truck's winter wheels/tires to get them a little lower and make it easier to spray the tops.

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                                                      You can see the haze in the air from the overspray. I really need an exhaust fan.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • bimmerguy
                                                        Member
                                                        • Mar 2021
                                                        • 82

                                                        One of the issues with using automotive paint on wood is that it soaks in more in some spots and less in others. This results in a lot of telegraphing of the grain. Even though I applied two coats of grain filler to the raw veneer, it still was very pronounced. You get a sense for that in this picture.

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                                                        And even more so here...

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                                                        I was hoping that would not happen so much, but I did anticipate it. So I sprayed 5 heavy coats in order to give myself enough material to sand down to a flat surface. The funny thing is, just off the gun the surface looks glass smooth, and as the paint contracts and soaks in as it cures, the texture starts to show. An hour after you spray it looks completely different that it does just off the gun. Here's a shot of the initial sanding of one side.

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                                                        I didn't dare sand so much off that I burned through to bare wood, so after I sanded down the sides and tops as much as I dared, I ended up spraying another four coats of clear in an effort to fill in all the texture. Even so I had to take some extra measures to ensure a glass-smooth surface (more on that later). The front baffle had multiple coats of epoxy primer, sandalbe primer, and basecoat, so there was no texture on those parts. I just masked over them when I sprayed the second round of clear. I didn't take a lot of pictures of that as it seems rather redundant.

                                                        Here it is after the second round after it is well cured. It is not glass-smooth, but it is certainly good enough that I can correct everything with the cutting and polishing step.

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                                                        The front baffle is much better, even with four less coats. There is definitely some orange peel. A professional painter I am not. But everything can be correct by the cut and polish step.

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                                                        Comment

                                                        • bimmerguy
                                                          Member
                                                          • Mar 2021
                                                          • 82

                                                          Cutting, polishing, and correction - this is the part I've been dreading the most. Not necessarily becuase it is difficult, but it is very nerve wracking (the stakes are high if you burn through the paint), very tedious, and very, very time consuming. There are not a lot of pictures here because it is just a lot of the same thing.

                                                          The front baffles don't need much work to get them flat and smooth. The small amount of orange peel sands flat quite nicely. But I did have to be very careful near the edges (and there are a lot of edges on the front baffles) to ensure I didn't burn through the clear coat. You have to go a lot slower than you would on a larger panel. If it weren't for the cutouts it would be an easier task. It starts with 400 grit if I'm feeling brave, then 600, 800, 1200, 1500, 3000, 5000, 8000. Here it is after the 400 grit step. The first, coarsest grit is of course the most time consuming - it is where all the correction happens, and it is where the greatest risk of disaster lies. I spent hours on each baffle just with the 400 grit. Finer grits were faster.

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                                                          The veneered parts are a whole different level of hateful misery. They've now got 9 coats of clear (though probably 75% of the first 5 coats was sanded off). Even with the second round of clear, there were still some low spots of divots. They are not fisheyes in the traditional sense of that term; I've had them happen before when spraying automotive clear on wood. I could just polish with them in there and most people probably wouldn't notice. But if you want that glass-smooth finish, they've got to go. My method to correct them is the brute force approach. I mix up a tiny batch of clear (say about 1ml) and use a very fine art brush to dab a tiny drop of paint onto each divot. Do that about a million times, and you have this...

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                                                          And then repeat that for each panel that has veneer. I use a small 1 inch by 0.75 inch denibbing file to shave down each drop of paint, then sand the whole panel with 1500 and up. And if I'm really lucky, I get to to it a second time on each panel. It is tedious, but effective. When you polish the panel they completely disappear.

                                                          The bases are a lot easier. Here's a shot of one of the bases after 8000 grit sanding.

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                                                          And again after the first round of polishing. I will do another round of polishing with an even finer grit, but even after the first step you can see the reflection of the polish bottle in the surface. I really like that piano-black look. Alas, most of the bases will be covered by the speakers themselves, but the parts that are visible should look pretty good. For the front baffles and the bases used the polishing pad on my Mirka sander. I've never used it like that before, but it worked great. For the larger side panels, I used by dual-action Flex buffer. It's much more powerful and the larger pad results in a more consistent finish on the larger panels.

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                                                          Comment

                                                          • wolf_teeth
                                                            Senior Member
                                                            • Feb 2011
                                                            • 165

                                                            I think ugly-woofer and bimmerguy ascribe to the same set of processes....

                                                            My finishing skills are getting better, much better in fact, but still don't ooze the quality I'm seeing here.

                                                            Comment

                                                            • bimmerguy
                                                              Member
                                                              • Mar 2021
                                                              • 82

                                                              Down the home stretch...

                                                              The cutting and polishing took an absolute age. Definitely my least favorite part. Not a lot of description here, just a few photos. I tried something new with ultra-fine sanding this time, which I sort of hinted at before. I used to sand with a regular 800 grit disc, then move through progressively finer grits up to 2000 with 3M Purple sanding discs made for automotive finishing work. Then I'd start with a course polish (Meguires 105), then intermediate polish (Meguires 205), and finally 3M's ultra fine machine polish. I suppose it would be nice to use one company's system exclusively, but this is what I had on hand. I don't like using course polished like 105 - it dries too quickly and doesn't give you the glass-level surface you want. So on a whim I ordered some 3M Trizact sanding discs/pads for the 6 inch pad of my Mirka. The grits were 1500, 3000, 5000, 8000. This was a game changer for me. They are hilariously expensive, but the time they saved me was well worth it. I was able to do all of both speakers with 1 disc of each grit. Once I went through the grits I was ready for the 205 polishing compound (skipping 105), then on to the ultrafine machine polish. I was pretty pleased with the results.

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                                                              This one doesn't look that shiny because I haven't yet wiped off the residue from the polishing compound, but the reflection is good.
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                                                              Comment

                                                              • bimmerguy
                                                                Member
                                                                • Mar 2021
                                                                • 82

                                                                The installation of the aluminum trim rings was next. Nothing elaborate there, just some Starbond flexible CA glue, to give a little insurance if the metal and plywood contract and expand at slightly different rates as the humidity changes throughout the year. Then it was on to wiring up the drivers. At this point I was super paranoid of scratching the speakers, so I was extremely careful in moving them around and laying them down - which is getting a little tough since they are so heavy. I set them on a triple layer of towels to help cushion them.

                                                                I soldered the wires from the crossovers directly to the drivers. I didn't want to use terminals since they don't provide as secure of a connection. They'd be easy enough to de-solder if I ever needed to. I mounted them using black-oxide stainless steel button head cap screws. I was a little concerned with getting the black oxide - in regular steel black oxide is very matte and not very attractive. But the black oxide stainless steel turned out to have a very nice eggshell-type of sheen that works perfectly.

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                                                                I didn't want the bottom of the speakers to sit directly on the bases. I doubt there would have been squeaks, but better safe than sorry. I have a whole bunch of medical grade closed-cell polyurethane foam that's about 1/16" think with adhesive on one side. I cut out some pieces and stuck them to the bottom of the speakers to act as a bit of a cushion.

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                                                                And with the bases installed...

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                                                                Comment

                                                                • bimmerguy
                                                                  Member
                                                                  • Mar 2021
                                                                  • 82

                                                                  The final fabrication step is to cover the grills with cloth. I've never tried to do something like this before, and I was particularly concerned about getting the corners neat. I'm using the spline method, similar to how many window screens are held in place. This process went better than I thought it would, and was relatively stress free because if something didn't look right, I could just pull the spline out and redo it. I bought a cheap tool for a few bucks to make installing the spline a little easier. The grooves are 0.125" and the spline is 0.140". I also had 0.125" spline, and with the thickness of the cloth this would have worked, but I liked the extra security afforded by the 0.140" spline being just that much tighter in the groove.

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                                                                  I'll show the steps I used to get the corners neat, in case that can help anyone in the future. After looking at the whole of the internet in its entirety, I wasn't able to find anything online that really showed the steps or described how to do it.

                                                                  After the bulk of the four sides were in place and the fabric had the desired tension, I cut the ends of the splines to the final length and pushed them in. I then trimmed the bulk of the fabric flush around the perimeter, but left about an inch on each side of each corner.

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                                                                  Then I trimmed the excess in the corners short enough for me to be able to get a good grip, but not so long as to get in the way. Since the fabric is a little bit elastic, I was then able to pull it sung and getting the bits on either side of the corner nice and tight.

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                                                                  I then used a drop or two of medium viscosity CA glue to fix the corner in place. I shaved off any high spots after the glue cured with a sharp chisel. It's not super pretty on the back side in the corners, but it won't ever been seen. The picture shows the first two corners I did - I got better at it the more I did, and the later ones look nicer. I don't have a picture of it, but right over the embedded magnets I placed circles of the same polyurethane foam I used on the bottoms, so the grill only touches the front baffle of the speaker by a nice soft material.

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                                                                  The cloth ended up nice and tight over the frame - you can bounce a coin off it easily.

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                                                                  And with that, ladies and gentlemen, the speakers are complete!! It was 485 days from the first sawdust to setting them in place in my living room. There were many times when I was frustrated, irritated, discouraged, and felt like giving up. It was definitely a war of attrition, but I powered through it by sheer dint of will.

                                                                  And now, on to the center channel....



                                                                  I'll post the final pictures of the completed speakers in a bit. Maybe there is a place to post completed projects....I'll check that out.

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • theSven
                                                                    Master of None
                                                                    • Jan 2014
                                                                    • 857

                                                                    Please do share some completed photos once the speakers are in place. This was a build saga to follow for the last 485 days! Thank you for sharing the build and all the lessons learned through this build.
                                                                    Painter in training

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • bimmerguy
                                                                      Member
                                                                      • Mar 2021
                                                                      • 82

                                                                      I don't have a shot of them in place yet, but this gives you all an idea of how they turned out. The other speaker looks exactly the same - and I mean exactly. I was careful to match the veneer in sequence and placement between the two speakers.

                                                                      As a physicist, I'd like to take some measurements to see how they do. I'm a total newb when it comes to that, so any pointers/reference guides would be appreciated. I checked out the REW website. I need to pick up a UMIK-1 if I'm going to do things properly. My room itself is certainly the largest contributing factor to not getting the best sound possible out of these or any speakers. But I won't get too hung up on the numbers/graphs - I listen to music, not my equipment. :-)

                                                                      They're not broken in yet, but my first listening impressions are very positive. I'm hearing things in the music that I never heard before in things I've listened to a million times. I have a huge collection of film scores, classical, pop/rock, and many other genres, and all of it sounds great. I used to be in a professional 48-piece wind ensemble so I like to think I have a pretty good ear. Are they Wilson WAMMs? No. But then I have less into these speakers than I do into my house. I really like the clarity of the Bliesma tweeters. They a bright enough that they sparkle, but are not fatiguing, at least to my ears. When I was listening fir the first time I went to turn off my sub so I'd just be listening to the speakers, and when I went to turn it off, I realized it was already off. Nice, that.

                                                                      They really shine when you put a little volume into them. I'm really enjoying them. And they look nice in the room - sort of functional art. I have things I've made throughout the house in a myriad of exotic woods (including the floors), but nothing in ziricote. Until now. I really like how they stand out next to my white oak and bubinga TV stand. I will make the center channel in the same veneer. But the subs will be something entirely different. But that's for another day.

                                                                      So without further delay, here are the money shots.

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                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Steve Manning
                                                                        Moderator
                                                                        • Dec 2006
                                                                        • 1886

                                                                        Those turned out amazing .... very nice work!
                                                                        Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                                        WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Evil Twin
                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                          • Nov 2004
                                                                          • 1531

                                                                          Satisfactory... MOST satisfactory!

                                                                          The Force is strong with this one...
                                                                          DFAL
                                                                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                                            • 15277

                                                                            Very nice work and very nice pictures! Another example of "slow work takes time" but it certainly pays off in the end! DIY speaker building is for those who can play the long game, not seekers of instant gratification.

                                                                            Now, in regards to doing measurements, I suggest there are two key aspects to that idea...

                                                                            First, in setting up the speakers in your listening room, as regards positioning relative to boundaries, and managing room interaction. This is something often not paid nearly enough attention, considering the impact on the results.

                                                                            Here is a worthwhile starting point I recommend:


                                                                            roomsetup.pdf

                                                                            Another useful technique is W.A.S.P.- no, I'm not talking about those flying stinging little critters, but "Wilson Audio Speaker Placement".

                                                                            This is basically a reciprocal method which can be used with test equipment or by ear- fundamental concept, you put a speaker where you would be listening, and then measure/listen at proposed speaker placement locations to find the ones that produce the best reproduction in what you are hearing from the speaker at the listening position- fundamental principle is acoustic reciprocity.





                                                                            Second, in deciding what sort of purpose or use the measurements are for- measurements suited to design, for example, or evaluations of the general room issues? REW can be useful to the latter, but one must understand the limitations- as Kimmo points out in his VituixCAD guides, getting precise measurements with it tends to be difficult compared with programs intended for design, and also the use of USB microphones with their variable processing delays isn't recommend.

                                                                            ​​​​​​​Even for just working on room placement, I prefer a setup that is capable of windowing and selectively reducing room reflections by the windowing function as well as timing gate- so one can explore where the issues lie.

                                                                            ​​​​​​​So, my perfectionist inner curmudgeon would recommend something like the Pocket CLIO setup, which takes a bit of effort to master, but apart from no ultrasonic capability, meets most of my baseline requirements (ultrasonic to understand tweeter issues that can cause resonant amplification of distortion products in the audio band- which can be suppressed by the right crossover approaches). This includes a dedicated hardware setup with microphone and electronics with all the connections necessary for timing and measurement integrity, and can also do driver impedance and complete speaker impedance measurements.



                                                                            I have one of these, as a cross check and for calibrated level measurements.

                                                                            For a flexible measuring approach with a traditional approach with phantom powering for condenser style measurement microphones, you might consider a Motu M4, which is PC and Mac compatible.



                                                                            For a microphone, there are many options over a wide price range-


                                                                            https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00B5L2B46/?coliid=IO4GVWEPGLJVG&colid=2ZIYJOOR18KE3&psc=1&re f_=list_c_wl_lv_ov_lig_dp_it


                                                                            Or one of my favorites...


                                                                            https://www.amazon.com/Earthworks-M30-Measurement-Microphone/dp/B0006VMSUI/ref=sr_1_2?crid=13984BRRKPID&keywords=earthworks+m 30&qid=1695309826&sprefix=Earthworks+M%2Caps%2C17 0 &sr=8-2&ufe=app_do%3Aamzn1.fos.2b70bf2b-6730-4ccf-ab97-eb60747b8daf

                                                                            Combinations like these will give wide dynamic range and low distortion in combination with the Motu M4.



                                                                            ​​​​​​​Here's a link to a topic we started about room setup- now, I realize you probably can't do the kinds of things I used to do for small recording studios decades ago, but you know, acoustic principles haven't changed, and managing early reflections and reducing the attendant comb filtering is just as critical in 2023 as it was in 1977, for example. Laws of physics haven't changes, as you know, just our understanding of how to make the best use of them!


                                                                            Ok boys and girls, it's time to go to the movies, and view and (sort of) hear a good example of what basic room treatments can do (with the sound of two hands clapping). This is one of my pet issues, even though I realize that for many folks, it's not possible for various logistics and personal reasons not to do this. But,


                                                                            Vicoustics and ATS are two of my favorites for acoustic control materials.

                                                                            Hope this stuff helps or at least gives you some places to start.

                                                                            Attached Files
                                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                                            Natalie P
                                                                            M8ta
                                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                                            Isiris
                                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                                            SMJ
                                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                                            Calliope
                                                                            Ardent D

                                                                            In Development...
                                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                            Modula PWB
                                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • technodanvan
                                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                                              • Nov 2009
                                                                              • 1012

                                                                              What more can be said that hasn't been said over the last 400+ days? Absolutely beautiful work, Rick would be more than pleased with not just the result, but the thought, planning, and details you have included throughout the entirety of this project.

                                                                              Now on to the center channel?
                                                                              - Danny

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • bimmerguy
                                                                                Member
                                                                                • Mar 2021
                                                                                • 82

                                                                                Thank you all for the kind words. And thanks, Jon for all the info. I definitely have some research to do and that is a great starting point.

                                                                                Comment


                                                                                • JonMarsh
                                                                                  JonMarsh commented
                                                                                  Editing a comment
                                                                                  You're very welcome - that's what it was intended to be- a starting point. And I second technodanvan's comment about Rick being pleased- we knew each other for some time, and I was worried about him in 2020 due to COVID, but didn't see the heart attack coming.
                                                                              • Efalegalo
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Jan 2007
                                                                                • 139

                                                                                My 2 cents: read the instruction manual for VituxCAD, along with recommended measurement procedure. I’ve learned most of what I know about audio from that document. I’m a novice user, but please free to PM me for my phone - and I’d be glad to provide an overview - that will accelerate learning.

                                                                                Comment

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