Sub-woofer connection (Powered and passive)

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  • wingclip
    Junior Member
    • Dec 2015
    • 10

    Sub-woofer connection (Powered and passive)

    Hi Folks,
    First let me say hello! My name is "Rich" and I am new to the HT Guide site. I'm 60 years old, and from 1980 to 1990 I was an avid audiophile that could never afford the equipment I wanted but managed to afford a complete "2nd or 3rd class" setup of components that certainly was a cut above the 'everyday' stuff. Back then, (and even now), if I had the money it would be Mcintosh amps & pre-amps, Klipsch speakers, Thorens tables, Fostex or Teac decks, etc. etc.

    Long story short, I got out of the audio-intense hobby, (sold all my components many years ago for peanuts), and in the last 25 years, I've forgotten almost everything about high-end stereo equipment that I had ever learned! I'll try not to bore you all with too many details but if you want some that I don't mention, by all means, ask and I'll fill you in.

    About a month ago, I decided to buy a good used, Akai Reel to Reel so I could play my mastered tapes and transfer some of them to CD, (uncompressed). The deck isn't as good as the one I had but the idea was to spend as little as possible and rebuild or repair anything that needed it. I just bought two used, integrated amps, one Sony TA-AV431 and one Yamaha A-700. In the process, I found myself wanting to get a sub-woofer and that's where the question lies, (for now, anyway).

    I'm looking at a used ONKYO SKW-380 Subwoofer which I believe is "passive". I'm also looking at a Polk audio sub-woofer RM6750, (http://www.ebay.com/itm/POLK-AUDIO-S...3D141843020030).

    I never had a separate sub-woofer in my system back in those 10 years and so I never had to think about how I would hook one up if I had an amp that didn't specify a connection for a sub-woofer.

    OK, so the question is/are: If I bought a passive SW like that Onkyo, how would I hook it up to an amp that doesn't have a specific SW input? It only has a standard, single left and right speaker connection. Am I supposed to 'splice it into the L?R speaker output connections on the amp? (BTW; I can't find any info about that Onkyo SKW-380 anywhere)

    The other question: If I had the Polk Audio SW, it seems obvious how I would hook that up but I'm not so sure why they would have Left & Right RCA "Line In" jacks. The main speakers go to the L/R Outputs, and the Amp speaker connections go to the L/R Inputs. You plug the SW into the unswitched 110V Power on the amp, at least, that's my first guess, anyway. So what to do with the L/R "line in" RCA jacks?

    Anyway, thanks ahead of time for anyone who can shed a little light on that for me. Of course, there's a lot more going on than what I've written but these two questions are the ones I'm working on at this point. I'm sure I'll be spending a good amount of time here, relearning as much as I have time for. The various topics I've quickly reviewed are good ones and I'll be reading them ASAP.
    Rich
    PS Mr. Administrator; I could make up my mind where I should have posted this question so please feel free to move it if there was a better place. thanks.
  • BobEllis
    Super Senior Member
    • Dec 2005
    • 1609

    #2
    Welcome to the forum and back to the hobby, Rich.

    Although this forum is dedicated to DIY projects, I'll try to answer your questions in the hope that you will join us in the world of DIY. A DIY subwoofer is a great first project. There are kits available that give you a driver, finished cabinet and plate amp to give you a powered sub. All it takes is a bit of time to wire it up and screw everything in place. BTW, most powered subs have an automatic power switch, so just plug it into the wall and it powers on when there is signal. That way you don't overload the outlets on your integrated amp. Parts Express is one place to get a subwoofer kit. There are several subwoofer threads here to give you some ideas, if you want to get more creative.

    Passive subwoofer hookup: It needs a separate amplifier and possibly a crossover. Connect sub out on integrated (if there is one) to sub amp and then sub amp to sub. If no sub out, hopefully you've got preamp outputs on your integrated. Go from there to something like https://minidsp.com/products/minidsp...ox/minidsp-2x4 set to filter the lows out of the mains and combine the lows to subwoofer. Loop the main output back to the main input of the integrated and send the subwoofer outputs to the sub amp.

    Powered sub hookup: Some include a crossover of sorts to filter the high frequencies from the sub. That's what the line inputs are for - either connect to integrated's sub out or split the preamp output to both main amp and sub amp or use a miniDSP as above. You can also just run a second set of light gauge speaker wires to the speaker inputs on the sub if there. The line level inputs are usually preferred. The miniDSP solution or sub out are going to be the better sounding since they also removes the lows from the mains.

    Looking at a picture of your Sony, the "Graphic EQ out" may be the preamp outputs you need for putting a miniDSP in the loop. It all depends on whether the volume control is before or after that connection. If you connect the output of that amp to a Yamaha input and move the Sony's volume control does it affect the volume?

    Can you use one of your integrated amps to power your passive subwoofer? Yes, but performance will be limited. By definition, subwoofers are power hungry beasts. You're better off with a plate amp (one that mounts to the back of the subwoofer cabinet) or separate higher powered amp.

    Comment

    • Steve Manning
      Moderator
      • Dec 2006
      • 1879

      #3
      Hi Rich and welcome ....... Bob has a great suggestion with looking at Parts Express for kits. I installed one earlier this year in a HT system for some friends of mine. It took about an hour to put together, has a plate amp with crossover settings, etc. and ended up saving ~ $150 over brand name stuff. The new owners were all smiles, with the performance and money saved.
      Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



      WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

      Comment

      • fbov
        Senior Member
        • Jun 2008
        • 479

        #4
        Yes, things have changed, but not everything. You still have a choice of integrated receivers or separate tuner/pre-amp/amp components, except there are now a lot more components required to match the modern integrated audio/video receiver. Bob is telling you the separates story.

        The integrated story isn't as DIY. A $200 AVR will give you:
        - HDMI connectivity with associated digital-realm signal management
        - codecs to access the multichannel soundtracks on the video side
        - filters for Low Frequency Effect and Bass management, so you get complementary low-pass on the subwoofer, and high-pass on the rest.
        - plus multichannel amplifiers, switching, etc.

        I am hardly qualified to list modern AVR features at this price point, much less a full featured unit, but I guarantee a long learning curve going the separates route. Now, that may be just what you want...

        Subwoofers are a great place to start. The biggest change I see is that we amateurs now have access to computer simulation and modeling tools that were unavailable in your day. Get a subwoofer simulator, learn about T/S parameters and simulate yourself some speakers. Several very good reference books out there (Lance Dickason's Loudspeaker Design Cookbook is a good one), and you'll find we're doing our own measurement, driver electrical characterization, and crossover design, as amateurs. Several folks blur that line.

        You picked a good time to come back!

        Have fun,
        Frank

        Comment

        • wingclip
          Junior Member
          • Dec 2015
          • 10

          #5
          Thank you Bob,
          As I had said earlier, I’ve forgotten a lot in the last 25 years. Neither of the integrated amplifiers I purchased hands “line in/out” connections for external components such as an equalizer or speaker periphery. I never thought to check, (that’s how much I’ve forgotten!).

          That said, I’m happy to say that I am a do-it-yourselfer, big time! I gained a lot of experience soldering microelectronics. I’ve actually gotten pretty good at it if I say so myself.

          The information you provided is going to be a big help and I happen to have several Parts Express catalogs. The main important thing for me is, to keep my wife from freaking out because I promised her that I wouldn’t rebuild my “Stereo Component Empire” LOL.

          Therefore, a budgeted solution is essential. I have no doubt that I’m going to be spending a lot of time in the DIY section because I already see myself about to begin a research on how to add line in/out RCA jacks to one or both of these amplifiers.

          The Yamaha A 700 is geared primarily for audio. In fact, it has several other connections such as Tape 1 & 2 PB and Rec Out recording inputs or example. It has a subsonic filter, and something called a DAD, (which I’ve yet research), etc.

          The Sony TA – AV431 only has three sets of RCA jacks or phono, CD, and video. It seems that this amplifier was meant to accommodate home theater/video recording.

          That said, the Sony is a 270 W per channel amplifier, (over 8 ohms), and the Yamaha A 700 is 100 W per channel. The fact is, the Sony sounds better to me then the Yamaha at this point.

          I believe that the Yamaha IE 700 simply needs a decent graphic equalizer which will definitely bring it to an output performance level equal to, or better than the Sony.


          The Sony seems to be able to drive a deeper base signal to the speakers making the sound richer. In addition, the Sony has surround sound, (which I did test), and it sounds very good.

          In addition, the Sony has three “system controls” receptacles in the back that obviously take special connectors. I’m about to search for the user manuals for both of the amplifiers.

          None of the amplifiers has a subwoofer connection option for their speaker system let alone “line-in/out” jacks. At this point, I’m now concerned about how to add line-in/out RCA connections, (as far as the electronic connections are concerned).

          Sorry for the long posts, but I don’t figure anyone can help me if they don’t know what I’m talking about so I tend to get “detailed”.

          The MiniDSP 2x4 in your link is something that I think I may need and I am wondering if it can also help me adapt the integrated amplifiers to accept external components.

          Thanks again for the reply, which I will be referring to again soon.
          Rich

          Comment

          • wingclip
            Junior Member
            • Dec 2015
            • 10

            #6
            Deleted double post
            Last edited by wingclip; 17 December 2015, 13:49 Thursday. Reason: deleted because I posted twice by accident

            Comment

            • wingclip
              Junior Member
              • Dec 2015
              • 10

              #7
              Originally posted by Steve Manning
              Hi Rich and welcome ....... Bob has a great suggestion with looking at Parts Express for kits. I installed one earlier this year in a HT system for some friends of mine. It took about an hour to put together, has a plate amp with crossover settings, etc. and ended up saving ~ $150 over brand name stuff. The new owners were all smiles, with the performance and money saved.
              Thanks Steve! It appears I may be doing the same thing!
              Rich

              Comment

              • wingclip
                Junior Member
                • Dec 2015
                • 10

                #8
                Originally posted by fbov
                Yes, things have changed, but not everything. You still have a choice of integrated receivers or separate tuner/pre-amp/amp components, except there are now a lot more components required to match the modern integrated audio/video receiver. Bob is telling you the separates story.

                The integrated story isn't as DIY. A $200 AVR will give you:
                - HDMI connectivity with associated digital-realm signal management
                - codecs to access the multichannel soundtracks on the video side
                - filters for Low Frequency Effect and Bass management, so you get complementary low-pass on the subwoofer, and high-pass on the rest.
                - plus multichannel amplifiers, switching, etc.

                I am hardly qualified to list modern AVR features at this price point, much less a full featured unit, but I guarantee a long learning curve going the separates route. Now, that may be just what you want...

                Subwoofers are a great place to start. The biggest change I see is that we amateurs now have access to computer simulation and modeling tools that were unavailable in your day. Get a subwoofer simulator, learn about T/S parameters and simulate yourself some speakers. Several very good reference books out there (Lance Dickason's Loudspeaker Design Cookbook is a good one), and you'll find we're doing our own measurement, driver electrical characterization, and crossover design, as amateurs. Several folks blur that line.

                You picked a good time to come back!

                Have fun,
                Frank
                Thank you frank!
                Yes, I'm seeing many new approaches to get even better performance. Unfortunately, my budget limits me to most of it. DIY is definitely the best way for me to go so I have no doubt that I’ll be spending time, a lot of time, here.

                At this point, I can’t hope to rebuild the component system anywhere near what I used to have. In fact, as I mentioned in my post to “Bob”, I promise my wife I wouldn’t get into the hobby as much as I did in the past.

                That said, I’m primarily focusing on purely audio based, old analog, component systems at this point and I have my eye on a Furman Equalizer ST-215 which I think will definitely help the Yamaha a 700. “Back in the day”, the two main things to focus on in improving or building your component system was first, a very good pair of speakers and second, a good stereo equalizer, (in that order).

                Unfortunately, I purchased both integrated amps without realizing that neither one had line in/out RCA connections. I see myself about to start researching how to adapt my amplifiers to handle this.

                Someone had just told me that all I need is a “Tape Monitor loop”. I think he’s talking about any kind of inputs that permit monitoring and recording simultaneously. I haven’t yet checked if that’s what he meant but have you ever heard of such a thing?
                Thanks,
                Rich

                Comment

                • TEK
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Oct 2002
                  • 1670

                  #9
                  Hi

                  If i were you I would evaluate the following method.
                  You conmect line out from your preamp and into the subwoofer (ideally into two subwoofers). Then you connect sub out into your amplifier.
                  The subwoofer (diy or buy) must have a plate amp with a built in crossover. The crossover will divide the input signal and give the lower signal range to the sub and the rest of the signal to the speaker amplifier.
                  The speaker amplifier will not have to handle the low part of the signal so it's load will be easier.

                  Edit: I did not see that you had integrated amps. You will need to use pre out (I assume you have that? - it's probably the same as the tape loop) give the signal from there and to the sub, and take it back in trough a different input set. I must admit that I'm a bit unsure about how you will be able to select your input source using this method with an integrated amp.

                  If you have pre-out you could also pass that signal to the sub and only adjust the sub to fill inn under your speakers, but then both the sub and your speakers will receive the same signal.

                  Edit 2: As you have a integrated amp and want to keep the cost to a resonable level, lets keep this a bit simpler.
                  Most regular plate amps have both line level and high level inputs. They also have some funtions to adjust the upper crossover point.
                  This is one example: http://www.hypex.nl/docs/DS20_manual.pdf
                  Hypex also has a eq funtion (basic stuff, nothing advanced)

                  You then have two options with a integrated amp:
                  1) you have a sub out, just put that into the line input of the sub (but you dont have sub out, so this is not for you)
                  2) connect a speaker cable from the speaker outputs to the high level input of the sub

                  So, in your case this is quite straight forward, use option 2 over. Then adjust the crossover frequency and volume of the sub so that the sub will fill inn under the speakers.
                  It's pritty much a walk in the park, and almost any sub will have this option.

                  Now you just have to decide what sub you want to build ;-)
                  -TEK


                  Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                  Comment

                  • wingclip
                    Junior Member
                    • Dec 2015
                    • 10

                    #10
                    Originally posted by TEK
                    Hi

                    If i were you I would evaluate the following method.
                    You conmect line out from your preamp and into the subwoofer (ideally into two subwoofers). Then you connect sub out into your amplifier.
                    The subwoofer (diy or buy) must have a plate amp with a built in crossover. The crossover will divide the input signal and give the lower signal range to the sub and the rest of the signal to the speaker amplifier.
                    The speaker amplifier will not have to handle the low part of the signal so it's load will be easier.

                    Edit: I did not see that you had integrated amps. You will need to use pre out (I assume you have that? - it's probably the same as the tape loop) give the signal from there and to the sub, and take it back in trough a different input set. I must admit that I'm a bit unsure about how you will be able to select your input source using this method with an integrated amp.

                    If you have pre-out you could also pass that signal to the sub and only adjust the sub to fill inn under your speakers, but then both the sub and your speakers will receive the same signal.
                    Thank you TEK!
                    It's embarrassing really. I had forgotten enough about these systems to forget to check if they had a Lin-in/out connection option for additional components! That said, the Yamaha A-700 does have L/R RCA juacks for "Tape PB and Rec Out" for Tape deck 1 & 2. I believe the "Tape Loop" alternative would be the "Tape PB" connections, no? I'm still working on getting the manuals for these amps. Unfortunately the more powerful Sony amp has only 6 RCA jacks: L/R for Phono, CD, and Video. The amp sounds great and has a surround sound option but it seems geared for Home theater more than Audio capabilities.

                    It does have 3 "System Controls" ports that accommodate some kind of specific, atypical connectors which I doubt will offer me more versatility. The Yamaha is really the one I need to work with, I think.
                    Rich

                    Comment

                    • TEK
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Oct 2002
                      • 1670

                      #11
                      Please note that I added a "edit 2" as you wrote your post.
                      -TEK


                      Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                      Comment

                      • wingclip
                        Junior Member
                        • Dec 2015
                        • 10

                        #12
                        Originally posted by TEK
                        Please note that I added a "edit 2" as you wrote your post.
                        Yes TEK, I saw that. I'm afraid I'm no longer sure enough of what I do remember to be certain that the "Tape PB" is the same as a "Pre-Out" option in this amp. Neither amp has any connections with the names; "pre-out", "line in/out", "Tape Mon", or "Tape Loop" on them. So that's what I'm really asking; can the Tape 1 & Tape 2 "Tape PB" RCA jacks work as a Pre-out option?

                        I'm most familiar with "Line-in/out options and that's the connections I would have used for my EQ, which then would have the Line out available for my other components, (I had a mixer [my friends and I played instruments which I recorded], and several turntables as well as a lot of other "little things". I had created a harness that was meticulously assembled and comprised of individually shielded lines each with their own 24K Gold plated connectors.
                        Thanks,
                        Rich

                        Comment

                        • TEK
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Oct 2002
                          • 1670

                          #13
                          If you get a sub with a plate amp with crossover, line in and high in, you will be ok anyway.
                          So I suggest you move your focus over to find out what sub you want to build :-)
                          -TEK


                          Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                          Comment

                          • wingclip
                            Junior Member
                            • Dec 2015
                            • 10

                            #14
                            Originally posted by TEK
                            If you get a sub with a plate amp with crossover, line in and high in, you will be ok anyway.
                            So I suggest you move your focus over to find out what sub you want to build :-)
                            I think I understand that you saying the sub woofer's plate amp, (once built), would supply line inputs, (and perhaps outputs), but shouldn't the EQ be in a chain that's linked directly to the amp first? i.e. (for the sake of an example and not necessarily my intentions) : Intgrtd Amp > EQ > Then Sub-Woofer, and/or Mixer, and/or "xxx", etc., etc.?
                            Rich

                            Comment

                            • TEK
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Oct 2002
                              • 1670

                              #15
                              Originally posted by wingclip
                              I think I understand that you saying the sub woofer's plate amp, (once built), would supply line inputs, (and perhaps outputs), but shouldn't the EQ be in a chain that's linked directly to the amp first? i.e. (for the sake of an example and not necessarily my intentions) : Intgrtd Amp > EQ > Then Sub-Woofer, and/or Mixer, and/or "xxx", etc., etc.?
                              Rich
                              First of all, I do not think that it matters. A plate amp (typically something you buy pre-build and not something you build yourself - but you can of course do that as well) normally has both line input, high-level input. You can also have a upper crossover point or not have a upper crossover point. That's up to you.
                              So, if you start with getting a sub with a decent plate amp - you can select how you want to use it later on.
                              So, given that scenario you can build you sub, try and fail in how you want to connect it to your existing gear and be up and running in no-time, and with only your existing gear + the sub of course ;-)

                              Your wife is happy and you are probably a bit more happy (but not satisfied).

                              After you have the sub connected and can relax - that part is at least OK, you can start wondering about the next step and the next improvement.
                              That might be exchanging your integrated amp with separates, it might be adding EQ and who now what. You will be able to use the sub anyway because it supports whatever you might come up with.
                              (except if you want a bigger sub - that's a different ballgame ;-)

                              As you can see - so far I have skipped your whole EQ question. If we are going to talk about EQ we should now what you want to EQ and to what extend.
                              Only the crossover between the speakers and the sub?
                              Or do you want to EQ the speakers themself? Or do you want to EQ the frequence respons of the sub?
                              If you for example look at the Hypex plate amp, they typically have crossover adjustment as well as a single EQ point. To setup a sub and make it fall inn below your mains that will often be enough.

                              You can also do room EQ already at the source (computer for example) before the signal gets to the amp at all.
                              In a home theater receiver, for example my Marantz SR7005, the receiver will set the crossover point between the speakers and the sub and the signal will be divided between the sub and the speakers by the receiver.

                              For your equipment I have to say that I honestly does not see how you will be able to get the signal out of the pre-amp, apply the EQ, send the signal back to the amp and to the sub,and at the same time be able to select between different input sources.
                              It does not mean that it is not possible, but I do not see how the equipment should be connected to do that.
                              -TEK


                              Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                              Comment

                              • wingclip
                                Junior Member
                                • Dec 2015
                                • 10

                                #16
                                Thanks TEK, I think you're steering right where I want to be regarding the Sub. As far as the EQ is concerned, I used to have a Sound Shaper II "paragraaphic" EQ. It was a great addition that I only wish I kept. Anyway, I'm shooting for frequency EQ to handle the room, a very asymmetrical layout due to various other equipment I use on a day to day basis, (the phasing of 4 speakers will be nonexistent because I would have many options of where to place the speakers).

                                Keeping in mind that I'm not going for a 'full-time' listening room, (remember the promise I made my wife, lol), this EQ would also compensate for a loss in my own hearing. I played the drums for over 45 years, (back when a 15 piece kit was "average"), and my trade as a machinist (for which I did a lot of huge milling and VTL work), really hammered my hearing.

                                So I'm trying to close a deal for a DOD 830 Series II or a Furman ST 215 EQ right now. However it sounded like you may be telling me I'm not going to be able work out a connection config for the EQ if I try to connect it to the integrated amp as I would've had I purchased one with Line-in/Out jacks. I'm pretty good with microelectronic soldering techniques, perhaps there may be a way to install a line-in/out set of RCA jacks instead?

                                As you said, you're not sure and I'd better find out what I can do and not do before I buy that EQ. The clock is ticking and I'm afraid if I don't go for it soon, I'll lose it! :O
                                Thanks,
                                Rich

                                Comment

                                • wingclip
                                  Junior Member
                                  • Dec 2015
                                  • 10

                                  #17
                                  Just an FYI: A little while ago I decided to try my old Logitech X540 5.1 PC/TV speaker system's Sub-woofer and used the Yamaha amp for the test. The Logi's SW is powered and surprisingly, it definitely added a depth to the system!

                                  I ran the speakers to the Logitech's RCA speaker connections, (Front/Back & center), but only ran all 4 speakers through the "Front" outputs.

                                  I ran the L/R Front speaker input from the Yamaha to the Logitech's front speakers input and used the "Matrix" switch that comes with the Logitech to fire all 4 as two pair of stereo speakers, (the Logitech input connections automatically works the 4 speakers in a "series configuration" when the "Matrix" button is activated).

                                  It's just a test and I don't plan to leave that way. However, it opened up an understanding that I needed.
                                  Rich

                                  Comment

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