Acoustic Advice Please

[BWLover]

So I'm putting together my first dedicated two channel room. I've gotten this far with the acoustic treatment, but it's starting to sound kind of dead. I have more treatment that's not up yet, any advice on where to place it? It's all pretty much the same as what's on the walls already, I just have more pieces of it to glue to back board and put up on the walls. The reason for the carpet under the stand...there used to be a wood stove there on some hardwood. The problem is they centred it to the centre of the high part of the ceiling, but there is a furnace duck that runs the length of the room along the ceiling. If you take that out of the equation then that piece of hardwood is not in the centre of the room. So if I don't cover it, the stand would be off to one side of the hardwood, and it would look stupid. I'm planning on ripping up the carpet and hardwood at a later date.




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[madmac]

That's a tight space you have there. I can see why it's sounding a bit dead. I would take out the wall to wall carpeting and put a throw rug in the middle instead. I would move the speakers a little farther from the side walls and move them forward into the room a bit more. That's where I would start. What are the walls made of??

[wkhanna]

first start with speaker placement.
putting your speakers on the long wall in a near-field configuration may be one scenario worth trying?
you will benefit most by taking the time to try multiple configurations now, even before you place the acoustic treatments.

Cardas Room Setup & Speaker Placement Guide


once you find a speaker placement that suites your tastes, then work with your absorption panels.
typically, the corners behind the speakers are the starting point for dealing bass response.
then your first reflection points on the side walls.
first & second reflection points often benefit from dispersion, too, not just absorption.

do not forget about your ceiling, either, if you are able (allowed), you can add treatment there also.

JMHO, YMMV

[Alaric]

This is just a guess on my part, but I would think the block walls and popcorned ceiling may have made the room sound somewhat "lively", and as you get closer to a flat response with cutting down reflections it doesn't sound as busy. This would be in addition to the very good observations already made. IMO.

[BWLover]

So my room is 15.5' long x 10' wide. I agree with you madmac on the carpet, my landlord has agreed to let me rip out all the carpet (replace with hardwood), and put a wall at the back of the room. We plan on buying this house anyway, so the cost isn't an issue for me. Currently the back of the room opens up to a bar area and a wide hallway. I'd like to put up a wall as to achieve a rectangular room, and also put diffusers on the rear wall. Right now I have some light curtains up to try and get rid of the wide open sound behind me. This is the first time I've had a dedicated room for my rig. It's almost a perfect rectangle if it wasn't for the HVAC ducting on the ceiling, and in the back corner of the room they put a cupboard under the curved ducting coming out from the furnace on the other side of the wall. I could put my rear wall before this cupboard, but I would loose about 3 feet in doing so. How much of an affect on the sound do you guys think this cupboard and ducting have? (See photos) As for the speaker placement, I have them close to the back wall for added bass. I'm hesitent to move them closer together width wise because I've done this before and find that the stage gets smaller. I'm guessing the reason why not a lot of the stage is outside the speakers is because they are entry level, I bet the 802's don't have this problem? The walls are double drywall with some wood slats/panelling over top that were painted over before we moved in, they were brown originally. I'm very fortunate to have found this house. That room has very good soundproofing. At the maximum volume I can push the speakers to (105-110dB), you can't hear it outside the house unless you are about 3 feet from the windows. Years ago when I was living with my grandfather I had my rig in his basement. The neighbour could hear the base inside his house. Another plus is the ceiling in this room, you can hear the music upstairs, but it's hardly loud enough to disturb someone watching TV. This house was well built in the 1960's. Thank you for that link on speaker placement. It's telling me based on my room width of 120" that my speakers should be 33" from the side walls and 54" from the back. Currently they are 18" from the sides and 34" from the back. I literally just clicked that link and got that result, so now I'm second guessing my speaker placement to the side walls, ugh I don't know lol. As for the ceiling, I'm definitely treating it. As for what Alaric said, I think you're right. I'm comparing the sound of an empty untreated room to that with some treatment. So I think that's why it sounds "dead" to me, because it was extremely echo'y before I put up the first reflection point treatments. How does a person find the reflection points on the ceiling? Do I just use the mirror trick for that as well? Also, on the back wall what should I do? I'm left with these acoustic pieces (see photos). Should I make a few parallel strips like what I have on the side walls, or should I checker board the whole back wall? Ps, I have no bass traps yet. If I make the parallel strips, where do I put them on the back wall, again do I use a mirror for this as well? Thanks very much for all your help so far people!








Bowers & Wilkins 683S1 Speakers
Rotel RB-1090 2 Channel Amp
Rotel RC-1082 Stereo Pre Amp
Rotel RCD-1072 CD Player
Pro-Ject Debut Carbon w/ Ortofon 2M Red (sitting on a piece of slate supported by 3 Solid Tech feet of silence isolation feet)
Rotel RLC-1040 Power Conditioner
Shynyata Research SR-Z1 Power Outlet & Venom 3 Power Cords x 4
Tara Labs RSC Vector 1 Speaker Cables & Interconnects
Primacoustic Room Treatments



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[Alaric]

Could a dropped ceiling, with acoustically inert tiles, be put in place at the level of the HVAC duct? It's hard to judge the height from the pictures.

[BWLover]

The hight was 8 feet but they added a subfloor in the basement. So I think it's something like 7'10"...


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[Alaric]

Ahh. That, minus the duct height, would probably leave the space a little cramped. And likely create a new set of acoustical issues.

[Kal Rubinson]

You need to consider that relatively thin foam panels, as you show, are ineffective at low(er) frequencies and that, as you add more in hope of improving the bass, you run the risk of over damping the mids and highs. That make for a dead (but boomy) sound.

[wkhanna]

IMHO, the duct work is the least of your worries at this point.

i would not be in any hurry to pull up the carpet, either.
for now it is helping prevent reflections.

Currently the back of the room opens up to a bar area and a wide hallway. I'd like to put up a wall as to achieve a rectangular room, and also put diffusers on the rear wall. Right now I have some light curtains up to try and get rid of the wide open sound behind me.

i am just making a guess here, but think maybe the 'wide open sound behind' is due to first and second reflection based on speaker placement and your listening position. typically, not having a wall behind you is a good thing in room set-up.

How does a person find the reflection points on the ceiling? Do I just use the mirror trick for that as well?

yep

Ps, I have no bass traps yet.

try placing one of the two sets of panels you have on the side wall behind the speakers.


also, i will repeat myself: first invest time working with your speaker & listening position placement. it will provide more benefit than just throwing acoustic panels at the problem.

This is quoted from Klaus Bunge's Odyssey Audio web site:

we would like to offer a basic rule of thumb. First, measure your
room in the direction that the speakers will face (usually this is the length of the room as
opposed to the width). Divide this distance by odd integers-- 3, 5, 7, and so on. This will
provide the theoretical distances that the front of the speakers should be positioned from
the back wall to minimize the effect of standing waves that develop within the room.
Individual room configurations, furniture, and other factors cause the ideal speaker
location to vary a bit from these theoretical positions, but these are usually the best points
to begin listening tests. A typical example is provided below:
Example: Suppose your listening room measures 15 ft. long x 12 ft. wide, and the
speakers will face the room's length-wise direction. Theoretically, the front of the speakers
should be positioned at 5 ft., 4 ft., 3 ft., etc. from the rear wall. Try a couple of these
distances as starting points and make slight adjustments as needed.

[BWLover]

You need to consider that relatively thin foam panels, as you show, are ineffective at low(er) frequencies and that, as you add more in hope of improving the bass, you run the risk of over damping the mids and highs. That make for a dead (but boomy) sound.

Right now I'm not concerned about the bass region as I don't have any bass traps yet. Just trying to get the reflections under control. I will be buying bass traps at a later date.


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[BWLover]

IMHO, the duct work is the least of your worries at this point.

i would not be in any hurry to pull up the carpet, either.
for now it is helping prevent reflections.



i am just making a guess here, but think maybe the 'wide open sound behind' is due to first and second reflection based on speaker placement and your listening position. typically, not having a wall behind you is a good thing in room set-up.



yep



try placing one of the two sets of panels you have on the side wall behind the speakers.


also, i will repeat myself: first invest time working with your speaker & listening position placement. it will provide more benefit than just throwing acoustic panels at the problem.

This is quoted from Klaus Bunge's Odyssey Audio web site:

we would like to offer a basic rule of thumb. First, measure your
room in the direction that the speakers will face (usually this is the length of the room as
opposed to the width). Divide this distance by odd integers-- 3, 5, 7, and so on. This will
provide the theoretical distances that the front of the speakers should be positioned from
the back wall to minimize the effect of standing waves that develop within the room.
Individual room configurations, furniture, and other factors cause the ideal speaker
location to vary a bit from these theoretical positions, but these are usually the best points
to begin listening tests. A typical example is provided below:
Example: Suppose your listening room measures 15 ft. long x 12 ft. wide, and the
speakers will face the room's length-wise direction. Theoretically, the front of the speakers
should be positioned at 5 ft., 4 ft., 3 ft., etc. from the rear wall. Try a couple of these
distances as starting points and make slight adjustments as needed.

I've always thought that the "ideal" room is a rectangle, so that's why I'd like to put a wall up at the rear of the room.

As for ripping up the carpet, I don't plan on leaving the floor a bare hard surface. I'll have an area rug down for sure. A dealer told me once that a hard floor with an area rug is better than wall to wall carpet because it provides a bit of reflection to liven up the sound a bit, but not too much, as apposed to completely deadening the sound.


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[BWLover]

I'm reading different room set up guides here so I have another question about ceiling reflection points. Some have the acoustic treatment panels at the same angle as the speakers, and some have the running parallel to the side walls at the reflection point. Which should I do?


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[wkhanna]

I've always thought that the "ideal" room is a rectangle......

actually, the ideal room is No room. (ie. zero reflections) :W

[Kal Rubinson]

actually, the ideal room is No room. (ie. zero reflections) :W

Really? Have you tried listening to music in an anechoic chamber?

[wkhanna]

Ah, so it seems my assumption is wrong!

No, Kal, i have never had the opportunity.
I have read that it is not always a most pleasant of experiences.
i know that speaker measurements are often performed in anechoic chambers & outside for DIY'ers.
is room interaction a requirement for proper performance of a speaker?

could you please explain further, Kal?
in general terms, what does make for an ideal listening environment?

regards,
Bill

[Kal Rubinson]

Ah, so it seems my assumption is wrong!

No, Kal, i have never had the opportunity.
I have read that it is not always a most pleasant of experiences.

Not so much unpleasant as it is weird and unsatisfying.

i know that speaker measurements are often performed in anechoic chambers & outside for DIY'ers.

Because rooms vary so much and have so great an impact on speaker performance/sound, the only way to get consistent and unbiased measurements is to eliminate the room and/or its effects. Thus, what is measured in an anechoic chamber does not represent what would be measured in any real room but it does permit unbiased comparisons between versions of speakers under development and between speakers.

is room interaction a requirement for proper performance of a speaker?

Yes. Remember that all music, afaik, is recorded and mastered in real rooms and balanced to sound properly. Without some reflections, decent stereo is nearly impossible and multichannel reproduction is not optimal.

could you please explain further, Kal?
in general terms, what does make for an ideal listening environment?

See Toole: Sound Reproduction. Excellent book!

[wkhanna]

Thank, you, Kal.;x(

Link to the book Kal referred to

[BWLover]

So should my ceiling treatment be angled the same degree as the speakers or should they run parallel to the side walls?


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[Kal Rubinson]

So should my ceiling treatment be angled the same degree as the speakers or should they run parallel to the side walls?
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Doesn't matter. It would have as little effect as rotating the square panels on the side walls. Coverage and placement are more significant than rotation.

[BWLover]

Doesn't matter. It would have as little effect as rotating the square panels on the side walls. Coverage and placement are more significant than rotation.

OK thanks


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[BWLover]

So I ripped out the carpet, revealing an oh so beautiful 1960's flooring hahaha. I threw down a 9'x6' area rug, and the room is 15'x12'. My God what an improvement on the sound! It definitely livened up the sound quite a bit, but not to much thanks to the area rug. It livened the sound up enough that the acoustic treatment makes a notable improvement to the sound vs just deadening it more. I will eventually put down some laminate hardwood, still with an area rug of course.

Question on the laminate hardwood...since it doesn't get nailed down has anyone experienced rattling from it?

I've been toying around with speaker positions since removing the carpet. Should I be doing this will no acoustic treatment on the walls? The reason I'm thinking this is because every time you move the speakers, all the reflection points change.

As always, thanks to everyone for your help.


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[madmac]

So I ripped out the carpet, revealing an oh so beautiful 1960's flooring hahaha. I threw down a 9'x6' area rug, and the room is 15'x12'. My God what an improvement on the sound! It definitely livened up the sound quite a bit, but not to much thanks to the area rug. It livened the sound up enough that the acoustic treatment makes a notable improvement to the sound vs just deadening it more. I will eventually put down some laminate hardwood, still with an area rug of course.

Question on the laminate hardwood...since it doesn't get nailed down has anyone experienced rattling from it?

I've been toying around with speaker positions since removing the carpet. Should I be doing this will no acoustic treatment on the walls? The reason I'm thinking this is because every time you move the speakers, all the reflection points change.

As always, thanks to everyone for your help.


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I wouldn't worry about it. Just move stuff around and have fun with it !! That's the whole beauty of being an audiophile! Sooner or later you will find your nirvana audio wise.

[Alaric]

This is going to be a (semi) educated guess on my part, but I would get the speakers where they sound best and then deal with where the reflection points are relative to speaker placement at that point. If I'm wrong I expect someone will let you know. I hope so, anyway!

[oldbob]

At a glance I would say that you should have treated the corners first with bass traps and then experimented with seeing if maybe you needed something for your first reflections, doubt that you need that second panel closest to your seating. Try moving that one directly behind your speakers or the first reflection off the ceiling.

[Alaric]

Really? Have you tried listening to music in an anechoic chamber?

I don't disagree, but open space and anechoic chambers are a little different, vis a vis the noise floor. I have heard some outdoor set ups that sound great-when the planes aren't flying over or the gomer next door isn't trying to see if he can fit his crankshaft through his oil drain plug with the throttle. LOL. But, most of my live music experience involves electric and amplified source material, so I may well be off in a completely different direction.

[BWLover]

So I got my wall up, and was wondering if I should insulate it or not? FWIW, the existing walls are all double drywalled, so this wall I'll do the same with.


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[wkhanna]

So long as the stud & horizontal braces are spaced such that the drywall will not resonate audibly, you should be ok

[BWLover]

OK, thanks. I spaced them every 12 inches instead of the normal 16 inches, and did put in horizontal braces


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[BWLover]

Acoustic Advice Please

On to my next question! My rear wall has been put up where you see the curtains in this photo, and the doorway will be on the right side of that wall / to the left of that cabinet. The new wall is about 5 or so feet long then a 30" wide door. I would eventually like to put up a few diffusers on that rear wall, but with the limited amount of space I would only be able to utilize the first 5 feet of the wall. I'm wondering if I should put a diffuser on the door as well to try and keep the diffusion even? It would have been nice to have the rear wall in line with that cabinet resulting in one straight rear wall. But my room is already small to begin with, and I would have went from 15' long to just under 12' long. And removing the cabinet isn't really an option because from the ceiling down about 3' is part of the furnace cold air return, they just decided to build a cabinet underneath that.



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[Alaric]

I'm just going on instinct here, so I'll pre concede if I'm wrong, but the dimensions of your room seem to indicate that a closer listening position may end up being optimum. With the width limits, the "Golden Triangle" is going to be closer than 15'. The acoustic panels will definitely help with reflections but I think room dimensions/speaker and seating are the big things to nail down first. Bill has posted some fine efforts on his setup and what he achieved in that area. :T

[BWLover]

Acoustic Advice Please

I'm just going on instinct here, so I'll pre concede if I'm wrong, but the dimensions of your room seem to indicate that a closer listening position may end up being optimum. With the width limits, the "Golden Triangle" is going to be closer than 15'. The acoustic panels will definitely help with reflections but I think room dimensions/speaker and seating are the big things to nail down first. Bill has posted some fine efforts on his setup and what he achieved in that area. :T

I'll have to check out some of Bill's posts. I'm definitely going to be pretty close to my speakers. I played around with speaker positions before I started redoing the floor and put the wall up. And my chair ended up about 3-4 feet from the curtain / what is now the wall. If I had the wall in line with the cabinet, I'd be less than a foot away from it, hahaha. Maybe one day I'll get a new furnace and reroute the duct work and have a flat wall at the 15' mark. But for now I'm very excited to have a dedicated 2 channel room. Any thoughts on diffuser placement on the new rear wall? Here's some progress photos.

Front Wall


Rear Wall




And this is from the hallway going into the room



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[BWLover]

Acoustic Advice Please

This project wasn't without its difficulties. Damn near every surface was out. The joys of older houses I guess lol.


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[wkhanna]

progress is a wonderful thing!
:T

[BWLover]

The room is mostly done now, and my stereo is back in the room. I don't understand why I'm not supposed to have my speakers close to the side walls. When I bring them closer together the soundstage just gets smaller, am I missing something here?


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[wkhanna]

moving your listening position closer will help to alleviate the shrunken soundstage.
keeping the speakers away from side walls helps prevent strong reflections which mess with the cohesiveness of the sound, sort of a time smearing effect.

the bottom line is, the set-up that sounds best to you is the only one that matters.
but experimenting is the only way to discover that set-up.
just cuz you to a point that you like what hear, do not stop there.
you may find the next 30 other placement iterations are not to your liking
but the 31st may be the best one for you.

[BWLover]

moving your listening position closer will help to alleviate the shrunken soundstage.
keeping the speakers away from side walls helps prevent strong reflections which mess with the cohesiveness of the sound, sort of a time smearing effect.

the bottom line is, the set-up that sounds best to you is the only one that matters.
but experimenting is the only way to discover that set-up.
just cuz you to a point that you like what hear, do not stop there.
you may find the next 30 other placement iterations are not to your liking
but the 31st may be the best one for you.

Thanks for the help 😊


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[BWLover]

So I've learned a lot about hi-end audio since I got into it about 10 years ago. But one thing I don't know a lot about is bass. How it's supposed to sound, and how to deal with it in rooms. I've noticed that when I'm listening to music and I stand in front on my audio rack, or when I stand at the back of the room, the bass is much stronger than when I'm in my listening chair, Why is that? I'll note that I don't have any bass traps in my room.


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