Dave's 8" woofer + 104mm tweeter speaker build.

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  • DaveFred
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2018
    • 172

    Dave's 8" woofer + 104mm tweeter speaker build.

    Hello,

    ​I am a little late in starting on my InDIYana 2023 build, I spent quite a bit of time testing drivers to see which ones would work best for what I wanted to do. For those who do not know, the Midwest Audio Club has an annual get together in Fort Wayne Indiana in April where one of the things they do is have a friendly theme speaker contest. This years is, Mix a =>8" driver to a tweeter <=104mm inna box <=1.5 cubic feet. My entry will be a Wavecor WF223BD01 8.75" woofer, Seas Prestige 27TBCD/GB-DXT tweeter and Dayton 10" passive radiator in about a 1.3 cubic foot box, about 21" tall, 15" deep and 12" wide.

    Enclosure front/back/top/bottom will a pseudo translam with me making translam panels then butt joining them with a lock rebate joint. The baffle itself will start out as a 3" thick panel, but more than half by weight will be removed from it by the time the enclosure is done. Top/bottom/back will be ~1.125" thick panels with the sides being regular 3/4" baltic birch panels with ~1/4" cherry thick veneer applied to them.

    BTW, I am soliciting name suggestions for this build, so please suggest some!


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  • DaveFred
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2018
    • 172

    #2
    ... more pics ...
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    Comment

    • 1Michael
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2006
      • 293

      #3
      Sea of Waves😆
      Michael
      Chesapeake Va.

      Comment

      • tktran
        Senior Member
        • Jan 2005
        • 658

        #4
        the Sea Waves

        Comment

        • JonMarsh
          Mad Max Moderator
          • Aug 2000
          • 15259

          #5
          Originally posted by DaveFred
          Hello,

          ​I am a little late in starting on my InDIYana 2023 build, I spent quite a bit of time testing drivers to see which ones would work best for what I wanted to do. For those who do not know, the Midwest Audio Club has an annual get together in Fort Wayne Indiana in April where one of the things they do is have a friendly theme speaker contest. This years is, Mix a =>8" driver to a tweeter <=104mm inna box <=1.5 cubic feet. My entry will be a Wavecor WF223BD01 8.75" woofer, Seas Prestige 27TBCD/GB-DXT tweeter and Dayton 10" passive radiator in about a 1.3 cubic foot box, about 21" tall, 15" deep and 12" wide.

          Enclosure front/back/top/bottom will a pseudo translam with me making translam panels then butt joining them with a lock rebate joint. The baffle itself will start out as a 3" thick panel, but more than half by weight will be removed from it by the time the enclosure is done. Top/bottom/back will be ~1.125" thick panels with the sides being regular 3/4" baltic birch panels with ~1/4" cherry thick veneer applied to them.

          BTW, I am soliciting name suggestions for this build, so please suggest some!


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          Great stuff! I love it when the sawdust starts to fly!
          the AudioWorx
          Natalie P
          M8ta
          Modula Neo DCC
          Modula MT XE
          Modula Xtreme
          Isiris
          Wavecor Ardent

          SMJ
          Minerva Monitor
          Calliope
          Ardent D

          In Development...
          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
          Obi-Wan
          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
          Modula PWB
          Calliope CC Supreme
          Natalie P Ultra
          Natalie P Supreme
          Janus BP1 Sub


          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

          Comment

          • DaveFred
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2018
            • 172

            #6
            Doesn't sound like much when you say it, but took a fair amount of time, cut out the driver openings in the baffle and fastened T-nuts on the back of the baffle for fasteners to hold the drivers in,

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            Comment

            • DaveFred
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2018
              • 172

              #7
              .. moar pics...

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              Comment

              • DaveFred
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2018
                • 172

                #8
                . and more....

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                Comment

                • theSven
                  Master of None
                  • Jan 2014
                  • 855

                  #9
                  Excellent share of all the pics for this build!

                  I'm trying to think of a creative name... I like the first 2, so I will just throw this one out there... Bamboo Tsunami
                  Painter in training

                  Comment

                  • DaveFred
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2018
                    • 172

                    #10
                    Here is a little work on the cherry veneered side panels for my InDIYana 2023 project, one side gets a Dayton DSA270-PR passive radiator and the other remains plain.

                    I knew I had been hanging onto some really gnarly cherry boards that were bought as part of a lot at an auction many years ago, and this was a good time to use them up as thick veneer for the sides of the translam enclosure.

                    Dressed them and mostly resawed them with a 3/32" Freud rip blade, finished on the bandsaw. Book matched panels were glued up and surfaced on a drum sander.

                    I don't have a vacuum press setup, so I made a torsion box and a platen to cold press the thick veneer onto the 3/4" Baltic birch sides.

                    For ease of travel, I wanted the surround of the passive radiator to be beneath the surface of the panel, so I added a second thickness of 1/2" Baltic birch to the back of the sides to allow for a deeper rebate. Rebate was cut in with 30º bevel sign making bit.


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                    Comment

                    • DaveFred
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2018
                      • 172

                      #11
                      More pics ...

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                      Comment

                      • JonMarsh
                        Mad Max Moderator
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 15259

                        #12
                        Now, that's Righteous! I thought I was weird for buying a lot of "interesting" solid woods and having a bit of a collection in storage- you're doing well with that, congrats!

                        Now, that's hard core- hard core cherry!

                        And to think some of my friends think my wood working stuff is hard core... Hah! I'm just a wires and sparks kind of buy,
                        basically!


                        So, how long were you hanging on to those cherry slabs?
                        the AudioWorx
                        Natalie P
                        M8ta
                        Modula Neo DCC
                        Modula MT XE
                        Modula Xtreme
                        Isiris
                        Wavecor Ardent

                        SMJ
                        Minerva Monitor
                        Calliope
                        Ardent D

                        In Development...
                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                        Obi-Wan
                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                        Modula PWB
                        Calliope CC Supreme
                        Natalie P Ultra
                        Natalie P Supreme
                        Janus BP1 Sub


                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                        Comment

                        • technodanvan
                          Senior Member
                          • Nov 2009
                          • 998

                          #13
                          Beautiful work. Really like how you carved out all that space behind the woofer. I should get a set of those bits sometime.
                          - Danny

                          Comment

                          • DaveFred
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2018
                            • 172

                            #14
                            Originally posted by JonMarsh
                            So, how long were you hanging on to those cherry slabs?
                            When I came across the group of boards at the auction, I saw a nice hall table in one of them, but had to buy the whole lot.

                            Here is that table,

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                            (no baseboards on here yet)

                            BTW, the auction was in 2003.


                            Last edited by DaveFred; 25 March 2023, 17:29 Saturday.

                            Comment


                            • theSven
                              theSven commented
                              Editing a comment
                              2 decades... Sometimes it just takes time for the pieces to fall into place.
                          • mordikai
                            Junior Member
                            • Oct 2007
                            • 8

                            #15
                            sweet build Dave!

                            Comment

                            • DaveFred
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2018
                              • 172

                              #16
                              Since my last installment,

                              Lock rebates were used for the top, bottom and braces to the baffle and rear of the speaker, makes locating things easier during glue up. Tongue is cut with a 24 tooth flat top grind ripping blade as I rebate out the material and leave the tongue. Grooves are just a crosscut with the ripping blade, basically a 1/8"x1/8" tongue and groove joint. This joint is commonly seen in cabinet drawer construction and where I first started using it many years ago. Interesting to see that Troels Gravesen also uses this technique.

                              Because these have to travel with me, I didn't want binding posts that would stick out so I cut a "cup" into the back panel after making it a little thicker.

                              Cross braces were made, you can see I changed my mind on how I was going to make them with all the different pencil marks on them. The furniture maker in me would not allow me to just glue the braces to the front and back of the speaker with the one long tongue due to different rates of expansion between flat plywood and stacked laminations of plywood. To put my mind at ease, I broke the 11" long "tennon" into three smaller tennons that would not constrain the front and back sandwiches.

                              Rather than attempt to glue the whole box up in one shot, I broke it down as much as possible, starting with just one side of one end, then the one side of the other end, the middle braces on just one side, then the entire second side. Takes longer, but makes for less stress.

                              Before the sides get glued on, lap both sides of the cabinet on a large sanding block, glue one side on, add damping where it needs to go, glue on the second side and flush trim the sides to the box. Driver holes have been taped up to prevent the damping from getting polluted with sawdust.


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                              Last edited by theSven; 02 April 2023, 10:20 Sunday.

                              Comment

                              • DaveFred
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2018
                                • 172

                                #17
                                Moor pics ...

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                                Comment

                                • DaveFred
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Sep 2018
                                  • 172

                                  #18
                                  And still moore,

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                                  Comment

                                  • technodanvan
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2009
                                    • 998

                                    #19
                                    Originally posted by DaveFred
                                    Click image for larger version Name:	76 - cuting braces 1.jpg Views:	9 Size:	361.8 KB ID:	931297
                                    How did you use a forstner bit to make ovals? I would think after cutting one through hole the other would be difficult to keep straight?
                                    - Danny

                                    Comment

                                    • DaveFred
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Sep 2018
                                      • 172

                                      #20
                                      Originally posted by technodanvan

                                      How did you use a forstner bit to make ovals? I would think after cutting one through hole the other would be difficult to keep straight?
                                      Hello Danny,

                                      The board is well clamped, no problems were had.

                                      David.

                                      Comment

                                      • DaveFred
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Sep 2018
                                        • 172

                                        #21
                                        InDIYana 2023 continues...

                                        -Shaping the cabinets-

                                        Building a square box was just the first part, next up was taking what I have learned from my tweeter bevel/roundover studies and shaping the box to allow for the smoothest frequency response.

                                        The big bevels on either side of the tweeter flare back at 30º and taper by 2-1/4" back into the baffle (hence the 3" thick baffle). There is also 1-3/4" double 30º bevel rising on the front vertical edges of the box on either side of the woofer that fades into the tweeter bevel. There is a smaller 1-1/8" double 30º bevel on the top and back of the box for aesthetic reasons. All bevels are softened with the 150g tool.

                                        My original plan was to use a jointer plane for the bevels, but Baltic Birch plywood endgrain turned out to be a lot harder to plane than I expected. I wasn't so sure about using a power handplane (slow mistakes vs. very fast mistakes) but it turned out to work much better than I expected. I only planed within about a 1/16" of my lines and used a large 60g sanding block to clean up the plane marks.

                                        The big bevels were tricky, but I would definitely do this again. If you plan on trying this at home, please practice on a test box, not one you have a ton of work into for your first try.

                                        Next up, finishing...


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                                        Comment

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 15259

                                          #22
                                          This is a very interesting approach to a translam style speaker cabinet. The front panel geometry and layout reminds me a lot of some of the early Avalon speakers when my friend Charlie Hansen was running things. And I know where he got the idea to investigate this...


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                                          the AudioWorx
                                          Natalie P
                                          M8ta
                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                          Modula MT XE
                                          Modula Xtreme
                                          Isiris
                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                          SMJ
                                          Minerva Monitor
                                          Calliope
                                          Ardent D

                                          In Development...
                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                          Obi-Wan
                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                          Modula PWB
                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                          Comment

                                          • JonMarsh
                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 15259

                                            #23
                                            Originally posted by DaveFred

                                            The big bevels were tricky, but I would definitely do this again. If you plan on trying this at home, please practice on a test box, not one you have a ton of work into for your first try.
                                            I would call this the "money quote".

                                            the AudioWorx
                                            Natalie P
                                            M8ta
                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                            Modula MT XE
                                            Modula Xtreme
                                            Isiris
                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                            SMJ
                                            Minerva Monitor
                                            Calliope
                                            Ardent D

                                            In Development...
                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                            Obi-Wan
                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                            Modula PWB
                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                            Comment

                                            • DaveFred
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Sep 2018
                                              • 172

                                              #24
                                              Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                              This is a very interesting approach to a translam style speaker cabinet.
                                              Woodworker, cabinet maker, furniture maker for 30+ years.

                                              Speaker builder, not so long.

                                              One of the beauties of not knowing what you are doing, is not knowing what you're not supposed to do.



                                              Comment

                                              • JonMarsh
                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                • Aug 2000
                                                • 15259

                                                #25
                                                Originally posted by DaveFred



                                                One of the beauties of not knowing what you are doing, is not knowing what you're not supposed to do.


                                                Great quote when it works in your favor!!

                                                No artificial boundaries on creativity!

                                                the AudioWorx
                                                Natalie P
                                                M8ta
                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                Modula MT XE
                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                Isiris
                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                SMJ
                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                Calliope
                                                Ardent D

                                                In Development...
                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                Obi-Wan
                                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                Modula PWB
                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                Comment

                                                • DaveFred
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Sep 2018
                                                  • 172

                                                  #26
                                                  This weekends update,

                                                  Put some Osmo Oil finish on the Seawaves, installed the binding posts and the drivers, made measurements in 10º increments 0º to 180º horizontally and -180º to +180º vertically, designed a crossover and did some validation measurements to ensure the design and reality matched.

                                                  Today's post will have lots of boring graphs, if anyone wants more detail about a specific slide, please ask.


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                                                  Comment

                                                  • DaveFred
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Sep 2018
                                                    • 172

                                                    #27
                                                    Moar Piks...

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                                                    Comment


                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      JonMarsh commented
                                                      Editing a comment
                                                      Pretty pics, and highlight a typical problem with obtaining directivity consistency in the vertical plane in the critical presence range. I wish folks like Seas would do a better job with coaxial like the C18EN we used in the Minerva. better driver performance and a vaguely reasonable price- I almost passed out today seeing the current price on the C18EN002!
                                                  • tktran
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Jan 2005
                                                    • 658

                                                    #28
                                                    Yes. It's wisdom. Unfortunately it takes time.

                                                    So going back to the electric planer (yes I have one on order) does it work well with MDF?

                                                    Do I just draw out the lines with pencil and plane away? 1mm, 2mm, or 0.5mm?

                                                    Any tips and tricks much better.

                                                    Bye-bye roundovers and paint, hello facets and formica!​

                                                    Comment


                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      JonMarsh commented
                                                      Editing a comment
                                                      Hmmm, this sounds a bit familiar, but the last speakers I did with "facets" of a sort and formica were the X1 SLAMM Klones in the 90's. Those were monsters... in more ways than one.
                                                  • Steve Manning
                                                    Moderator
                                                    • Dec 2006
                                                    • 1879

                                                    #29
                                                    Originally posted by tktran
                                                    Yes. It's wisdom. Unfortunately it takes time.

                                                    So going back to the electric planer (yes I have one on order) does it work well with MDF?

                                                    Do I just draw out the lines with pencil and plane away? 1mm, 2mm, or 0.5mm?

                                                    Any tips and tricks much better.

                                                    Bye-bye roundovers and paint, hello facets and formica!​
                                                    Actually MDF planes pretty well ...... like most woods don't try to take too much material in a single pass.
                                                    Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                    WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                    Comment

                                                    • DaveFred
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Sep 2018
                                                      • 172

                                                      #30
                                                      Small update for today, playing around with PR weight options.

                                                      Low end measurements with 0, 20 and 40 grams added to the Dayton DSA270-PR 10" passive radiator.

                                                      As my previous graphs show, I was having a little problem merging the passive radiator with the woofer and ended up with a peak at the low end.

                                                      Scott Hinson reminded me about the REW option to use "In the Box" microphone measurements and that is how these measurements were done, no merge required to see where the roll off is.

                                                      In the end I oped for no added weight and went with the green response.


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                                                      Comment

                                                      • DaveFred
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Sep 2018
                                                        • 172

                                                        #31
                                                        With the PR weights all decided on, it was time to build the XO's, install them, wire up the drivers, button everything up and hope they met my expectations!

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                                                        I am very pleased with how they turned out!

                                                        Comment

                                                        • theSven
                                                          Master of None
                                                          • Jan 2014
                                                          • 855

                                                          #32
                                                          They look amazing! Did they meet your expectation???
                                                          Painter in training

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15259

                                                            #33
                                                            Finished in time for the competition?
                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                            Natalie P
                                                            M8ta
                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                            Isiris
                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                            SMJ
                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                            Calliope
                                                            Ardent D

                                                            In Development...
                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                            Modula PWB
                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • DaveFred
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Sep 2018
                                                              • 172

                                                              #34
                                                              All done, shows over....

                                                              I liked them, I think a good number of people liked them, but a better design and implementation won.


                                                              Comment

                                                              • tktran
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Jan 2005
                                                                • 658

                                                                #35
                                                                The directivity matching of this speaker is smoother than that of the other (winning) speaker.

                                                                my theory- sighted listening tests have too many biases to be effective at detecting the preferred speaker. But supposed a double blinded study found the same result; what can we hypothesise?

                                                                a) directivity matching is just not that important. 2) listeners in that room, listening in stereo preferred the speaker with the wider dispersion. c) circle of confusion strikes again.

                                                                Comment

                                                                • technodanvan
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Nov 2009
                                                                  • 998

                                                                  #36
                                                                  Well they look fantastic, and I'm sure they sound great. Also great - that towering flexi-rack you have in the corner of your room! That's a lot of shelves!
                                                                  - Danny

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Efalegalo
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Jan 2007
                                                                    • 138

                                                                    #37
                                                                    Originally posted by tktran
                                                                    The directivity matching of this speaker is smoother than that of the other (winning) speaker.

                                                                    my theory- sighted listening tests have too many biases to be effective at detecting the preferred speaker. But suppose a double-blinded study found the same result; what can we hypothesize?

                                                                    a) directivity matching is just not that important. 2) listeners in that room, listening in stereo preferred the speaker with the wider dispersion. c) circle of confusion strikes again.
                                                                    I literally had the same thoughts in my head.

                                                                    It is interesting, however, how many times the RS225 ends up in a winning combination. I have a few on hand but have yet to use one in a 2-way.

                                                                    In regards to directivity - I have built speakers with good directivity (e.g., waveguide loaded tweeter) and simple 6.5" 2-ways, and I've enjoyed both. I haven't compared the two through a blind-listening test.

                                                                    For me - I will take better bass extension over better directivity every time. I'm not a bass-head by any means, but I just don't enjoy music when some of the low notes are missing.

                                                                    Comment

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