Ardent D (aka Kurosawa Jr) Winter Camp

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  • Scottg
    Senior Member
    • Nov 2006
    • 335

    It's a HUGE scam from taxapayer money. My guess is over 100 BILLION has been paid-out with very little improvement nation-wide.

    I live in a market where there are several providers around me for high'ish bandwidth (though only a few areas have gig service), but in my subdivision there is only 1 provider (for anything over 15 megabit) - and they can and will *jack-up prices without warning and you can't do anything about it other than say "cancel service" and then "fight" for a more reasonable price. Additionally, no fiber. My subdivision is that sort of pissing-pond problem without any regulation.

    *we went from $60 a month 100 megabit down 10 up to being charged for overage fees totaling like $150 because we'd been "switched" from unlimited without our knowledge. Then we hit the "cancel service" run-around and finally spoke to a state-side re-mediator and now it's the same $60 for 350 megabit down and 40 up unlimited (..though even then we had to carefully state that we had our own modem or they would have tacked-on another $10 a month). Of course meanwhile that very same service provider (Optimum) is offering fiber near us (but not in our subdivision) for $50 a month with a $200 prepaid Visa card and a 1 year term OR 200 megabit for $30 AND the $200 Visa card which is available to us BUT for New Customers ONLY, which we can never be because they are the only viable service provider (unless we go without internet for 6 months).

    Price-wise I'm fairly happy with where we are now, but it was a pain in the @ss to get to that point, and it likely will be again with their price-hike shenanigans. (..and for TV we had DirecTV before then with exactly the same problems, and dumped them for streaming with Sling Blue - which is what caused the higher use for that month.)

    Moreover the ISP definitely throttles certain websites like Youtube. (Though so far our other (Sling, IMDB, Pluto, Xumo, etc.) streaming for TV's hasn't been that bad.) At some point though I might have to setup my own private "VPN" through something like Linode with providers near my City area.

    -yeah, it's a sore spot for me! Sorry about the off-topic rant. ops:

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15275

      It's a big problem in many parts of the country, and like healthcare, what we get for our money is unimaginably inadequate compared with much of Northern Europe. Italy might be a bit different...

      No worries. I fully sympathize and understand. We signed a contract today for a new home which will probably be ready about this time next year, (have already driven over the streets where it will be- streets and utilities are all in, the delay tends to be availability of construction materials and skilled trades workers- but this is out in a pretty rural area on the north side of Treasure valley (Boise area) and I expect I will have SpaceX Starlink in my future, as I rather doubt there's any fiber in this town of 7500 people!
      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
      Modula Neo DCC
      Modula MT XE
      Modula Xtreme
      Isiris
      Wavecor Ardent

      SMJ
      Minerva Monitor
      Calliope
      Ardent D

      In Development...
      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
      Obi-Wan
      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
      Modula PWB
      Calliope CC Supreme
      Natalie P Ultra
      Natalie P Supreme
      Janus BP1 Sub


      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15275

        Getting back on topic, now that our flurry of real estate activity is abating, we can get back to more mundane matters- like the Ardent D updates and evaluations.

        This is how things are looking now after a number of iterative updates- the easily removed PR's and crossover make this less painful than it would be for some of the other builds that have gone down. Famous last words, I don't think we'll be changing any thing else- I have three levels of build quality and component selection identified for Steve, but as you can see there are a bit more parts than a three way done with straight 2nd order crossovers would require, but I think the results are... interesting!



        In a sense, these kind of have three characteristics that pop out at you in different ways, as a result of the drivers and design. I'll just outline tonight, and go into details shortly.
        1. First, these are a three way speaker with all dome drivers. And if you've paid attention to the posted polar plots for individual drivers we've taken, this means the off axis response should be quite wide and uniform, and it is. Seems almost too good to be true at 60-70 degrees off axis.
        2. Next, let's just say that the more I listen to the AS168, the more I'm impressed with it's neutrality and extension and control. I know Accuton put a lot of effort into engineering speific characteristics into this part, and after working with the AS168, I am really curious to hear the AS190 in action. The tuning in this cabinet with the Dayton PR's has worked exactly as hoped and planned- I'll comment on evaluation cuts as well as the equipment setup. On some cuts the bass may almost sound too neutral- no extra fatness or warmth. But very good pitch definition. But then on other cuts, there is a combination of control and power and pitch definition which makes me hear the cut in a new light compared to past experience- this occurred on James Taylor's Gaia, for example, and Stanley Clarke's import album "The Bass-ic Collection"- for example, the first cut, "School Days", is on this album the only CD version that approaches the dynamics of the original vinyl. But the 2nd cut, "Wild Dog" really surprises on some tom-tom rolls from small to large with the presence and power and sheer musicality on display. It seems truer to me to the likely intent of the producers of the recording- and it's just a heck of a lot of fun, to boot!
        3. While the sound field all around the room is quite pleasant and well balanced, when you sit down in a classic listening position, even in this rather live and reverberant room, it's like the imaging quickly locks/snaps into place, though obviously what you get is dependent on the source characteristics. This will deserve some exploration with familiar material, but it is almost startling the way this happens as you move into the listening sweet spot- I say that even in comparison to other designs and builds I've worked on. I suspect it has much to do with the Duelund crossover behavior, which is more fully realized in this build than past efforts. (I.E., it's a bit of a b*tch to get right...)


        A lot more to come, including 8x10's with arrows and circles and paragraphs on the back...
        Last edited by theSven; 12 August 2023, 20:38 Saturday. Reason: Update image style
        the AudioWorx
        Natalie P
        M8ta
        Modula Neo DCC
        Modula MT XE
        Modula Xtreme
        Isiris
        Wavecor Ardent

        SMJ
        Minerva Monitor
        Calliope
        Ardent D

        In Development...
        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
        Obi-Wan
        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
        Modula PWB
        Calliope CC Supreme
        Natalie P Ultra
        Natalie P Supreme
        Janus BP1 Sub


        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • Alaric
          Ultra Senior Member
          • Jan 2006
          • 4143

          A lot more to come, including 8x10's with arrows and circles and paragraphs on the back...
          For an Arlo quote, you, sir, have triggered the ancient tradition. You get a dancenana for one of my all time favorite songs.
          :dancenana:
          Lee

          Marantz PM7200-RIP
          Marantz PM-KI Pearl
          Schiit Modi 3
          Marantz CD5005
          Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

          Comment

          • JonMarsh
            Mad Max Moderator
            • Aug 2000
            • 15275

            Dates us both, huh?

            :banana:
            the AudioWorx
            Natalie P
            M8ta
            Modula Neo DCC
            Modula MT XE
            Modula Xtreme
            Isiris
            Wavecor Ardent

            SMJ
            Minerva Monitor
            Calliope
            Ardent D

            In Development...
            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
            Obi-Wan
            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
            Modula PWB
            Calliope CC Supreme
            Natalie P Ultra
            Natalie P Supreme
            Janus BP1 Sub


            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

            Comment

            • JonMarsh
              Mad Max Moderator
              • Aug 2000
              • 15275

              well, I dug up some more CD's from my storage to rip, and one's I couldn't find I ordered on Amazon- heaven help us if the only way to get CD's was to buy locally!

              Have started some more listening sessions, though this morning I must attend to more mundane chores... Joan Osborne's greatest hits was a treat last night!


              Click image for larger version

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              And I've got some of the heavy guns electronics for the music server here to hook up, like the Alpha USB... now let's get those chores out of the way!
              the AudioWorx
              Natalie P
              M8ta
              Modula Neo DCC
              Modula MT XE
              Modula Xtreme
              Isiris
              Wavecor Ardent

              SMJ
              Minerva Monitor
              Calliope
              Ardent D

              In Development...
              Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
              Obi-Wan
              Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
              Modula PWB
              Calliope CC Supreme
              Natalie P Ultra
              Natalie P Supreme
              Janus BP1 Sub


              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

              Comment

              • Oskar2905
                Junior Member
                • Nov 2020
                • 1

                Hi. I'm making speakers using fountek fw168k and da25tx. I would like to use same RC ultrasonic filter on da25tx like


                in this xover but there's no coil resistance listed on schematic and I don;t have an equipment to measure anything above 20kHz. JonMarsh would you be so kind and share what coil you're using ?

                BTW. If anyone wants a quality made and good sounding midwoofer I can recommend this fountek gladly .
                Last edited by theSven; 12 August 2023, 20:39 Saturday. Reason: Update image style

                Comment

                • Alaric
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • Jan 2006
                  • 4143

                  Originally posted by JonMarsh
                  Dates us both, huh?

                  :banana:
                  Lil' bit. I just looked at the avatar dates and I think I need a drink (Coffee at this hour). My daughter was almost 6 years old when I wandered in here. She's now 21 and lives in a cabin in the woods and hunts her own food. Where in the hell did all that time go???
                  Back on topic, while this project exceeds my budget by orders of magnitude, I really enjoy the heck out of the learning curve. So thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. :thanku:
                  Lee

                  Marantz PM7200-RIP
                  Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                  Schiit Modi 3
                  Marantz CD5005
                  Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                  Comment

                  • JonMarsh
                    Mad Max Moderator
                    • Aug 2000
                    • 15275

                    Originally posted by Alaric
                    Lil' bit. I just looked at the avatar dates and I think I need a drink (Coffee at this hour). My daughter was almost 6 years old when I wandered in here. She's now 21 and lives in a cabin in the woods and hunts her own food. Where in the hell did all that time go???
                    Back on topic, while this project exceeds my budget by orders of magnitude, I really enjoy the heck out of the learning curve. So thank you for sharing your knowledge and experience. :thanku:
                    I can so relate... look at my join date! Over 20 years now! And when I think about what was going down back then, versus now, it feels like much more.

                    My daughter was 15 back then, and now she's carrying her 3rd child, another girl. The middle one was a boy, though, he will literally be the next Doc Emmett Alexander.

                    And Stella (the oldest) is looking forward to our visit this summer so we can watch Star Wars and Back to the Future movies (this was her own unprompted request to her mom, just based on the stuff he overhears. She'll be 4 in August.
                    the AudioWorx
                    Natalie P
                    M8ta
                    Modula Neo DCC
                    Modula MT XE
                    Modula Xtreme
                    Isiris
                    Wavecor Ardent

                    SMJ
                    Minerva Monitor
                    Calliope
                    Ardent D

                    In Development...
                    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                    Obi-Wan
                    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                    Modula PWB
                    Calliope CC Supreme
                    Natalie P Ultra
                    Natalie P Supreme
                    Janus BP1 Sub


                    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15275

                      Originally posted by Oskar2905
                      Hi. I'm making speakers using fountek fw168k and da25tx. I would like to use same RC ultrasonic filter on da25tx like

                      in this xover but there's no coil resistance listed on schematic and I don;t have an equipment to measure anything above 20kHz. JonMarsh would you be so kind and share what coil you're using ?

                      BTW. If anyone wants a quality made and good sounding midwoofer I can recommend this fountek gladly .

                      I'll get the info for you from the Calliope two way I created for Steve Manning, which uses the same tweeter and technique. I've got real estate meeting with our builder most of the day, so it may not be until late, or late this week (travel for three days starting tomorrow).

                      The Fountek is a nice looking part, kind of like the FW135 I've tested, but haven't used in a design yet.

                      Click image for larger version

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                      The actual production FW135H parts have a grille like the FW168K
                      Last edited by theSven; 12 August 2023, 21:17 Saturday. Reason: Update quote and image location
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • JonMarsh
                        Mad Max Moderator
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 15275

                        Looking at my day, if I don't get this done right now, it won't happen until late in the week!


                        Here's the crossover schematic: Note, it takes two of the 50uH coils wired in parallel to get the target value, unless you have an LCR meter and can unwind one of them to the correct inductance.


                        PE part number is 257-798.


                        Click image for larger version

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                        Here's how well this measured, including distortion. You can see it essentially completely kills the 2nd Harmonic resonance amplification distortion component.

                        Click image for larger version

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                        As you can see, the DA25, implemented properly, is a honey of a tweeter, with the maximum 2nd harmonic distortion products at 90 dB SPL at about -60dB. 3rd harmonic is 6-8 dB lower. That's pretty much world class.
                        the AudioWorx
                        Natalie P
                        M8ta
                        Modula Neo DCC
                        Modula MT XE
                        Modula Xtreme
                        Isiris
                        Wavecor Ardent

                        SMJ
                        Minerva Monitor
                        Calliope
                        Ardent D

                        In Development...
                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                        Obi-Wan
                        Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                        Modula PWB
                        Calliope CC Supreme
                        Natalie P Ultra
                        Natalie P Supreme
                        Janus BP1 Sub


                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                        Comment

                        • kevinlin1013
                          Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 47

                          Originally posted by Evil Twin


                          Click image for larger version  Name:	NeoD_Wavecor_POC_V2-AllGraphs_1-20_3.5.jpg Views:	0 Size:	163.7 KB ID:	926705
                          [ATTACH=CONFIG]29926[/ATTACH]
                          I have a question. In the SW223 woofer part , it said Ardent DATA but in the Ardent Wavecor there are two 4ohm in serial.
                          On the other hand , this crossover is two 8 ohm in 3.5 way parallel design. Is my understanding right? Thanks a lot!

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15275

                            Hello Kevin!

                            The "Wavecor Ardent" and the "Ardent D" are two VERY different systems!

                            The Wavecor Ardent used two Wavecor SW223 4 ohm drivers in series with our concoction of an LR3 crossover (not something created by Linkwitz and Riley) to get a fairly easy to drive load (note how flat the total impedance curve is- apart from sensitivity, relatively tube amp or non feedback solid state amp (Ayre Acoustics, for example) friendly.

                            The Ardent D is a very different system experiment, using Accuton Cell woofers in combination with 10" passive radiators with the effective Z axis acoustic origin in the mounting plane, making them very suitable for the Duelund type crossover ("D" designation) in conjunction with tweeter and midrange with similar Z axis acoustic origin.

                            Note also that the build I did was essentially an acoustic POC (Proof Of Concept) for the planned SMJ TTC cabinet design.

                            Click image for larger version

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                            This was supplied by Steve in a kit form to Sven, as documented in a thread on HT Guide.

                            I'll dig up the last VituixCAD files for that project and post later today- they're on another computer which isn't handy to access at the moment.


                            ​​​​​​​I've been considering the possibility of updating the midrange on my original pair of the Ardent D to the BlisSMa T74, but availability has been sporadic- not even listed on the BlieSMa site for a while, and they still aren't, but they are back in stock at Solen in Canada.

                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
                            Minerva Monitor
                            Calliope
                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • kevinlin1013
                              Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 47

                              Originally posted by Evil Twin
                              This may be illegal technology to use in this quadrant, bypassing the normal net systems, but the quality should be better...

                              Note that this is the 3.5 way configuration with "warm" voicing...

                              Click image for larger version

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                              I suppose this SW223s are 8 ohm version. (Ardent Wavecor is using 4 ohm version wiring in series)
                              Is it possible to sure the data of 8ohm version SW223 on baffle? Thank you so much!

                              Comment

                              • JonMarsh
                                Mad Max Moderator
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 15275

                                No, these are the SW223 4 ohm version, wired in series.
                                the AudioWorx
                                Natalie P
                                M8ta
                                Modula Neo DCC
                                Modula MT XE
                                Modula Xtreme
                                Isiris
                                Wavecor Ardent

                                SMJ
                                Minerva Monitor
                                Calliope
                                Ardent D

                                In Development...
                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                Obi-Wan
                                Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                Modula PWB
                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                Natalie P Ultra
                                Natalie P Supreme
                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                Comment


                                • kevinlin1013
                                  kevinlin1013 commented
                                  Editing a comment
                                  Thanks for your quick reply!
                                  But from the schmatic , it is a 3.5 way topology (DA25+RS52AN+SW223 not the Wavecor Ardent).
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