Interesting Drivers

[Bear]

Divorce is always hardest on the kids, especially when one or both parents start new families. It's like they don't know who they are. Or which production line they came from...

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8646

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=1181

And...

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8645

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=45_229_324&products_id=8647

The good news is that if you want an XT25, there is a way to pay $20 more to get one if Madisound goes out of stock. :E Hopefully one of our testing gurus will be able to discern some sort of difference to warrant the price differences. They may not be identical, but they sure are close.

[Face]

Are are the odds of the SS model having a metal flange?

[Jed]

The cost difference wouldn't really be that much if we compared the pricing about a month ago. Madisound got a new batch of the Chinese made Vifa drivers and lowered the costs. For example, the Vifa double magnet tweeters I use went from $55 to $40 with the new shipment.

I'll probably check out the quality of the Danish made Scan Speak version at some point to see if it is an improvement, but both models look the same, just they are manufactured in different plants (which can make a difference in driver consistency etc).

[augerpro]

Where was the original XT25 made?

[Jed]

Where was the original XT25 made?

Depends how far back you want to go. Tymphany, now the owner of Vifa, shifted operations from Denmark to China. I don't know the exact year.

Scan Speak, now independent again, has a new line called Discovery, which looks like their own version of the "old" Vifa and Peerless drivers when they were a part of Tymphany. For example, one of the (new) Scan Speak drivers in the Discovery line looks exactly like the Peerless HDS.

[Bear]

I'll probably check out the quality of the Danish made Scan Speak version at some point to see if it is an improvement, but both models look the same, just they are manufactured in different plants (which can make a difference in driver consistency etc).

I'd be really surprised if the Discovery series were manufactured by the Danes at all. The labeling should change to conform with the ScanSpeak MPN (Manufacturer's Part Number). My guess is that Tymphany is OEMing these to SS to the Danes' specs, hence the minor sub-part number changes. I could be wrong, though (I'm pretty familiar with contract manufacturing in the high tech industry, not an audio guru, obviously).

[Jed]

I'd be really surprised if the Discovery series were manufactured by the Danes at all. The labeling should change to conform with the ScanSpeak MPN (Manufacturer's Part Number). My guess is that Tymphany is OEMing these to SS to the Danes' specs, hence the minor sub-part number changes. I could be wrong, though (I'm pretty familiar with contract manufacturing in the high tech industry, not an audio guru, obviously).

Looks like you are probably right.

[Mark K]

I'd be really surprised if the Discovery series were manufactured by the Danes at all. The labeling should change to conform with the ScanSpeak MPN (Manufacturer's Part Number). My guess is that Tymphany is OEMing these to SS to the Danes' specs, hence the minor sub-part number changes. I could be wrong, though (I'm pretty familiar with contract manufacturing in the high tech industry, not an audio guru, obviously).

I don't think this is the case. I'm pretty sure that SS is keeping the production of these in house/in Denmark. Now, the parts themselves may come from the asian plants, but the final assembly and QC is at SS. Remember, these drivers originated in at DST long ago before any asian plants existed, and even when they opened the asia plants, SS made all their own drivers in house. For Scan to spin off and then rebadge the asian drivers as their own would be risky. The main issue with asian drivers is QC. Probably SS wants some of the budget market, but want to maintain inhouse final assembly and QC. It costs a bit more, but they can get a bit more for the SS name and quality reputation.

[JonMarsh]

And now the Peerles HDS Tweete is a ScanSpeak Discovery series.... just when I was going to order some to play with!

[Bear]

I don't think this is the case. I'm pretty sure that SS is keeping the production of these in house/in Denmark. Now, the parts themselves may come from the asian plants, but the final assembly and QC is at SS. Remember, these drivers originated in at DST long ago before any asian plants existed, and even when they opened the asia plants, SS made all their own drivers in house.

The model information labels on the units in the pictures would agree with you, though why they wouldn't use their own labels, rather than those of the OEM is what sets off my curiosity/skepticism. This one appears not to have any incriminating evidence as of now:

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8645

For Scan to spin off and then rebadge the asian drivers as their own would be risky. The main issue with asian drivers is QC. Probably SS wants some of the budget market, but want to maintain inhouse final assembly and QC. It costs a bit more, but they can get a bit more for the SS name and quality reputation.

A minor point: SS was what was spun off of the mothership (Tymphany), not the other way around. From a marketer's perspective, part of why you create the sub-brand (line brand) is to create a bit of an identity for related products so that you can "play around" a bit (typically going down market, though occasionally up). I don't see it as risky at all, merely a company trying to quickly diversify a product portfolio to capture incremental market opportunities on the cheap. In other words, exactly what one would expect from a newly-hatched company selling higher-end products in the midst of a global recession.

[Jed]

A minor point: SS was what was spun off of the mothership (Tymphany), not the other way around.

Scan Speak existed before Tymphany.

Vifa and Peerless was owned by Scan Speak. Then Tymphany joined up. Tymphany split off and took Peerless and Vifa with it.

Now Scan Speak has "Discovery" which is the Peerless and Vifa equivalent they had before Tymphany took those brands over.

[Rick Craig]

I don't think this is the case. I'm pretty sure that SS is keeping the production of these in house/in Denmark. Now, the parts themselves may come from the asian plants, but the final assembly and QC is at SS. Remember, these drivers originated in at DST long ago before any asian plants existed, and even when they opened the asia plants, SS made all their own drivers in house. For Scan to spin off and then rebadge the asian drivers as their own would be risky. The main issue with asian drivers is QC. Probably SS wants some of the budget market, but want to maintain inhouse final assembly and QC. It costs a bit more, but they can get a bit more for the SS name and quality reputation.

The new Seas L26ROY is manufactured in Asia

[Mark K]

The model information labels on the units in the pictures would agree with you, though why they wouldn't use their own labels, rather than those of the OEM is what sets off my curiosity/skepticism. This one appears not to have any incriminating evidence as of now:

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8645

A minor point: SS was what was spun off of the mothership (Tymphany), not the other way around. From a marketer's perspective, part of why you create the sub-brand (line brand) is to create a bit of an identity for related products so that you can "play around" a bit (typically going down market, though occasionally up). I don't see it as risky at all, merely a company trying to quickly diversify a product portfolio to capture incremental market opportunities on the cheap. In other words, exactly what one would expect from a newly-hatched company selling higher-end products in the midst of a global recession.

As Jed noted, SS has been around way before Tymphany.

Now, here's some of my WAG's.

Tymphany was/is a very well funded by venture capital when silicon valley was brimming with cash. This infusion is probably what built all the asian plants. The hope was to use the name and engineering expertise along with improving quality and lower costs to expand DST (then Tymphany's) into the very budget oem market. Scan was always the high end "boutique" division of DST focusing the high end.

I got the feeling that Tymphany cash and management and the philosphy of SS didn't quite get along.

Now the SS actually are labeled made in Denmark. Now I'm not exactly how this label is applied in regards to loudspeakers, but it would not be entirely disingenous to say that just sticking a Scan Speak label on an asian import is enough to increase is value 80% and thus earn it the right to be called, "made in Denmark." Still, I would imagine that an oem buyer would ask, exactly, what they were getting besides the label since the part is the same design.

Anyway, I'm just guessing. I'm curious to test a couple of the discovery series and see how they do.

[dlr]

I also noted that they have supplied new measurements for those "Made in Denmark" units. The XT25 "Danish" version has a distinctly better measured response, at least as represented in their new measurements. The two XT25s I bought in that first group buy that came before they were widely available were the flattest drivers on-axis of anything I had measured before or have measured since. That was before D-S-T I believe, not quite sure. Whether or not they and the others are worth the extra cost is yet to be seen, but my money would bet on them being both better (relatively) with more consistency. Those first ones had Vifa labels, of course. Somehow with the split, SS picked up that other branded line.

I see that Madisound also is carrying the 13m/8640 again, an old favorite of mine. It had been changed to OEM some time ago.

Dave

[JonMarsh]

Not much question where this is coming from- I can swear I read somewhere this was always produced in the SS facility-

Some of the new Discovery midwoofers look pretty good- even the 18W/8424G00 seems to have a cleaner impedance plot and top end than we've seen from SS before.

[Jed]

I see that Madisound also is carrying the 13m/8640 again, an old favorite of mine. It had been changed to OEM some time ago.

Dave

Hey Dave, I thought of you when I saw that 13m at madisound again, because I remember you developed a speaker with it at one time. Do you find the measured response a bit flatter than the advertised pdf? There's some peaking in the upper mids/lower treble.

[Bear]

Scan Speak existed before Tymphany.

Vifa and Peerless was owned by Scan Speak. Then Tymphany joined up. Tymphany split off and took Peerless and Vifa with it.

As Jed noted, SS has been around way before Tymphany.

I may be being too much of a technician on this, then, but generally when a management team buys a division, it is not the rest of the company that is "spun off". The question is who was buying (e.g., SS management) and who was selling (e.g., Tymphany), not what was being bought or sold (e.g., the brand, IP and physical plant). The distinction is pretty immaterial, and once you start getting into M&A, the legal structures get fairly complex fairly quickly (e.g., John Malone). What matters, really, is how much working capital the SS team had left after the split and whether they are meeting their revenue and cash (EBITDA) targets for whatever loan covenants they have to remain viable.

Some of the new Discovery midwoofers look pretty good- even the 18W/8424G00 seems to have a cleaner impedance plot and top end than we've seen from SS before.

http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/18w-8424g00.pdf

I'd be real curious to see what's going on in the 800Hz - 3kHz with a little more resolution on the graph.

Bill

[dlr]

Hey Dave, I thought of you when I saw that 13m at madisound again, because I remember you developed a speaker with it at one time. Do you find the measured response a bit flatter than the advertised pdf? There's some peaking in the upper mids/lower treble.

The peaking is there in some form. Some driver pairs have been closer than others. The reason that my measurements look a bit smoother is probably due to the limitations of measuring in-room. The resolution isn't there to show all of the detail below about 2K. A quasi-anechoic response is essentially smoothed a bit. Even on my large baffle, there is tendency that way. Couple it with baffle diffraction, though, and it is a bit better, but the baffle step and even some above it comes into play. Small midranges have more diffraction due to their better dispersion. It is also peaky near the top, that does make it a little more difficult to work with. Still, I always liked it and I plan to have the old one back into an M/T box to swap around.

My thought right now is to try it "a la Dahlquist". That is, I may try it in a 3-way, but without a box. The back will be covered with a padding of felt to damp the back wave.

Dave

[dlr]

I'd be real curious to see what's going on in the 800Hz - 3kHz with a little more resolution on the graph.

Bill

I'd wager that I could nearly eliminate that.

Dave

[JonMarsh]

You never know for sure until you have it in your hand and do some measurements (not in your hand of course, let's say, on the baffle!). But the impedance curve looks clean in the midrange, which is not usually the case with SS around 800 Hz or so.

What I only just noticed now is the Xmax.... Huh!?!@ Linear excursion on a 7" midwoofer of 2.6 mm? Was wondering at first if this was a viable alternative to the ER18RNX, but it's not looking that way based on the VC parameters.

[Jonasz]

Here's some new Peerless HDS drivers I haven't seen on Tymphanys homepage or anywhere else for that matter. The prices range from €41 for the smallest glassfibre cone to €75 for the 8" aluminium cone.

Glassfibre:

http://shop.speakerenco.nl/images/PDF/P830992%20Specification%20Sheets.pdf

http://shop.speakerenco.nl/images/PDF/P830991%20Specification%20Sheets.pdf

http://shop.speakerenco.nl/images/PDF/P830990%20Specification%20Sheets.pdf

Aluminium:

http://shop.speakerenco.nl/images/PDF/P835023%20Specification%20Sheets.pdf

http://shop.speakerenco.nl/images/PDF/P835024%20Specification%20Sheets.pdf

http://shop.speakerenco.nl/images/PDF/P835025%20Specification%20Sheets.pdf

http://shop.speakerenco.nl/images/PDF/P835026%20Specification%20Sheets.pdf

[Jed]

Here's some new Peerless HDS drivers I haven't seen on Tymphanys homepage or anywhere else for that matter. The prices range from €41 for the smallest glassfibre cone to €75 for the 8" aluminium cone.

I've been waiting for those aluminum cone Peerless drivers after seeing a picture of them awhile ago. They look nice. I wonder how they will compare to the 6" Seas L16, which is a power house in a small package. It's nice to see some smaller mids coming out as well to give more choices in the less than 100 dollar range.

[Jonasz]

The SS 10F/4424G00 seems like a nice new mid-/widebanddriver, maybe a competitor to the RS100? It has a nice 90dB efficiency, neodymium motor and a decent 2,6mm Xmax.

10f-4424g00.pdf



The SS D2604/833000 also looks to be a new driver just not a rebadged Vifa. Looks like the DX25 from the front and the XT25 (with the plastic cup) from behind. Very low fs (475hz), wide dispersion and high sensitivity at 94dB.

d2604-833000.pdf

[JonMarsh]

I'm still wondering why even the new 7" in this series is only quoted at ~2.5 mm Xmax. For the smaller drivers, I understand the trade-off in sensitivity and SPL, but a 7?

I was looking at that tweeter over on SS site, too- looks interesting, though I wonder how it slots in price wise against the established D2608/9130?

[jkrutke]

Wow, I was unaware that the XT25 went down so much in price. Nice, that moves it up my favorites list a bit. I hope they haven't changed much. I'm also wondering if the XT25, both Vifa or Scan Speak still have the faceplate glued on. I've always wanted to throw one on a waveguide, but that's hard to do when the faceplate is permanently glued in place.

[Jonasz]

Interesting Scandinavian Drivers

Very compact with decent throw but low sensitivity. Haven't modeled it but it looks to be happy with a relatively small box.

http://www.madisound.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=8667

[Bear]

Looks fairly ideal for a PR box. I modeled two CSS APR10s in 30L (742.1g Mmp), and it was pushing about 102 dB @ 20 Hz (250W). The question is whether it has reasonable control of the cone at that point or if it is a distortion monster.

[JonMarsh]

Looks fairly ideal for a PR box. I modeled two CSS APR10s in 30L (742.1g Mmp), and it was pushing about 102 dB @ 20 Hz (250W). The question is whether it has reasonable control of the cone at that point or if it is a distortion monster.

Their standard 10" woofer doesn't have a very linear motor, so that's a very relevant question. Could be "looks nice, sounds not so nice". :W Well, eventually someone will pop for one to measure.

[JonMarsh]

Warning about the D2608/9130

Here's what the VC replacement assembly looks like - notice something?



The wire leads to the terminals are rather long and VERY delicate- I just managed to break both wires on two tweeters by soldering to them in a fashion which has never been a problem before with any other tweeter I've used.

Use caution working with these.

[Silversmoky]

Warning about the D2608/9130

Here's what the VC replacement assembly looks like - notice something?



The wire leads to the terminals are rather long and VERY delicate- I just managed to break both wires on two tweeters by soldering to them in a fashion which has never been a problem before with any other tweeter I've used.

Use caution working with these.

I can definitely echo your caution with these Jon! I also had the same thing happen to 2 of them. Very delicate and I ended up just having to use quick connects once fixed. I have 5 of these tweeters and 2 had the voice coil issue and a 3rd has very troubling distortion measurements. Something is definitely messed up on that one but I haven't investigated further to see what may be the problem. Mine are all the older Peerless models. Very nice tweeters but I have gotten a touch gun shy with 3 of them having some issues

[JonMarsh]

My current thought, because of the flex possible at the connector tabs, and the relatively fragile leads, is anchor the lead in wires (which I do anyway), and don't solder to the tabs, only a quick connect. I'll be highlighting this in the PDF for my current design build.

Thanks for chiming in with your experience. I thought my case might be a bit more of a "problem" due to how I use them with mounting for a waveguide, but I don't think that's really a contributing factor.

[Bear]

Jon - What size quick connect are best for these and any brand you recommend? I've got a grab bag of stuff coming from Madisound, but I'm always open to a bit of informed experimentation.

[JonMarsh]

Well, I've got some gold plated 0.187" quick connects- they're better for the narrow tab terminals used on tweeters like these- that's what I'm going to try this evening- use some AWG14 bus, wrap around the Kimber wire, then an extension lead with the quick connect on it, plugged to the tweeter. Secured by a cable tie hold down or two, maybe a dab of hot glue on the back of the tweeters. Film by 8 tonight, probably.

[Silversmoky]

My current thought, because of the flex possible at the connector tabs, and the relatively fragile leads, is anchor the lead in wires (which I do anyway), and don't solder to the tabs, only a quick connect. I'll be highlighting this in the PDF for my current design build.

Thanks for chiming in with your experience. I thought my case might be a bit more of a "problem" due to how I use them with mounting for a waveguide, but I don't think that's really a contributing factor.

I think you are probably right about the flex at the connectors in combination with the very fine lead being the problem. I was never sure at what point mine were damaged, but I assumed at soldering, although I had never had a problem on any other tweeters before. They do flex quite a bit up, which may be the point of breaking. Always had me wishing that they would redesign their connection points, maybe similar to Usher/Dayton.

[JonMarsh]

I'm considering reinforcing the terminal location point with hot glue; I believe it's the combination of the soldering operation and the flex that leads to the problem. Since these are going to "family" of a sort, I don't want "issues" out in the field. I'll take pics will will be included in the Modula MT MkII build PDF I'm preparing.

[Silversmoky]

Sounds good Jon. I will definitely take a look at your write up to see how you are going about this. Are you thinking of putting a touch of hot glue between the face plate and terminal or on the voice coil itself?

[JonMarsh]

At the intersection of faceplate, terminal, and magnet. Just to stabilize the mechanicals of the terminal tab. We'll see if that makes sense- I don't even remember how far I re-assembled them last night with the new VC/magnet assemblies robbed from the other two tweeters (really, I just did a faceplate transplant...)

[Silversmoky]

Got it. That should work to fill that space and keep that tab from moving so much. Good idea. I might have to do that as well once you give the go ahead!

[Jonasz]

Interesting Scandinavian Drivers

Scan-Speak just released information about a couple new Revelatordrivers, both seem interesting I think. Just need a mid to complete these for a very nice 3-way. :B

Beryllium tweeter: D2908/714000

http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/d2908-714000.pdf

13" sub/woofer: 32W/4578T00

http://www.scan-speak.dk/datasheet/pdf/32w-4578t00.pdf

[5th element]

No doubt the prices for both will be absurd.

The sub woofer looks interesting however as it is reasonably sensitive as sub drivers go and if the freq response and impedance curves are anything to go by it can probably used up reasonably high to mate with a suitable mid range driver.

The tweeter has a 120mm faceplate which is less then optimum as it only increases the C2C spacing of any design. It would have made far more sense if the face plate was shaped into a shallow wave-guide to give a degree of pattern control, like the old revelator. Not that it matters mind you, I am never going to use the tweeter unless scan decide to make it reasonably priced. I can't justify the cost unless scan offer replacement dome assemblies.

[JonMarsh]

Well, interesting- you got me excited with the idea of a new SS Be tweeter- and eight ohms… but the raw response is a bit of a head scratcher - I wonder how they see the value proposition of this part compared to the 6640, which certainly measures flatter by Scanspeak's data as well as my own. And I agree the relatively large diameter is not a turn on. I'm having trouble seeing the rationale compared to the 6640,

[5th element]

You're not the only one having trouble. It is interesting to see that Scan obviously think this is a good idea, but it is hard to see why. It's a high end Scan tweeter so class leading non linear distortion is a given, so that doesn't exactly distinguish it from any of their other tweeters. The frequency response is manageable, but really its a hot mess, you don't pay premium for anything less then the best imo and then there is that over-sized face-plate.

Looking at it again though, the response doesn't even extend that low, sure its 8 ohm and highish sensitivity at that, but with less output down low it isn't going to fit in so well to lower xover point designs. The 6640 pretty much goes down to 500Hz whereas this driver is already rolling off one octave higher. As Montgomery Scott said, you cannot chance the laws of physics, so something had to give for that extra output.

Scan speak has proven itself time and time again in it's ability to produce drivers that genuinely can justify their high cost, providing you've got the money to spend. Yet another high end tweeter with odd design features isn't exactly needed imo. Now scan have proven that they can compete with its lower priced discovery line too, but I think the DIY market might get more excited about some variations on the HDS/913000 tweeter or something aimed more at high performance but also with high value.

[JonMarsh]

You know what this reminds me of? Some of the new, higher sensitivity tweeters Seas introduced around 2007, like the TC290F002 Crescendo. Didn't seem to make a lot of sense at the time compared with standard Millenium Excel used in the Orion. Wonder how they're selling?

And what's with the dome itself? A pronounced upper end resonance at ~33 kHz? That's not any better than the Transducer Labs N26, which sells for a very reasonable price.

Then, there's the 6640, on a specific test baffle that is not IB. My own measurements, with an ACO Pacific Instrumentation mic good to 50 kHz. Sampling at 96 kHz.



The only reason I can think of for "desiring" the response curve in the new Be SS tweeter, is if the hump compensates for a roll off or other behavior in the baffle mounting of a big customer of there's, and it's more like a public version of something that was once "private"? but that's just speculation. Otherwise, doesn't make much sense, and not of interest to me, unfortunately.

[tktran]

This 12.5" woofer looks interesting, but the price. If you have you ask the price, you can't...

[JonMarsh]

This 12.5" woofer looks interesting, but the price. If you have you ask the price, you can't...

No kidding! At least it's not made with neodymium magnets! :W