Considering Statement build

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  • Elliott
    Junior Member
    • Dec 2009
    • 10

    Considering Statement build

    Hello everyone, this is my first post here.

    I'm in the final stages of completing a home theater and am considering a speaker upgrade. I've built several subwoofers and have a lot of woodworking experience so I'm comfortable taking on a DIY project.

    My current speakers are Swan Diva 6.1's for mains, C3 center and 2.1 surrounds. They are about 10 years old. I've never been completely happy with the center, at times it sounds hollow and boxy. I'm using an Integra DHC 9.9 processor with Emotiva XPA-2 and XPA-5 amps.

    My listening preferences are 80/20 home theater/music. Room dimensions are ~17'x23'x9'. It's acoustically treated with OC703 rigid fiberglass and has a false screenwall covered with GOM acoustically transparent cloth. There's about 2' behind it where the front 3 speakers and 2 18" subwoofers are located. It also has a sand filled stage which rises about 8" above the floor.

    The screen size has made speaker placement a challenge. It's not acoustically transparent so I have the center located below the screen and the mains to the sides. My current speakers are toed in and have about 18" clearance to the side and rear walls. The bottom of the screen is about 2' above the floor.

    How well would the Statements work in my room configuration? Other suggestions? I'm willing to budget up to $1500 for the front 3 speakers.

    Here's a picture and and diagrams of my room.
    Image not available
    Image not available
    Image not available
    Last edited by theSven; 11 March 2023, 19:14 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
  • Kidsrapain
    Junior Member
    • Dec 2009
    • 27

    #2
    Nice job on the HT very nice.Emotiva amps will drive any thing so you have lots of choices on speakers.

    Comment

    • Jim Holtz
      Ultra Senior Member
      • Mar 2005
      • 3223

      #3
      I can't recommend the statements or any of the Statements series speakers for your room. They require blending the rear wave with the front wave of the speaker to sound the way they're designed. If I'm understanding your layout, you almost need in-walls.

      You might check out the Khanspires. They're designed to work setting very close to a wall. Ryan will probably comment with his thoughts.

      Jim

      Comment

      • evilskillit
        Senior Member
        • Oct 2008
        • 468

        #4
        Hrm, well the black stuff behind the screen is apparently acoustically transparent cloth. The speakers sit just behind that and the cloth is feet off the back wall, so the backs of the statements would be about 12-14" off the back wall, the only thing that would interfere with the back wave would be the screen it's self. I'm not sure if that is a problem or not.

        If they won't work other than the statements yeah the kahnspires look good, or jed's lineups or dynamics.

        Comment

        • Elliott
          Junior Member
          • Dec 2009
          • 10

          #5
          Hi Jim,

          The black stuff you see around the screen is speaker cloth. The area behind the screen is open so the speakers would have about 18" clearance the front wall.

          Comment

          • Jim Holtz
            Ultra Senior Member
            • Mar 2005
            • 3223

            #6
            Originally posted by Elliott
            Hi Jim,

            The black stuff you see around the screen is speaker cloth. The area behind the screen is open so the speakers would have about 18" clearance the front wall.
            Here's the part I'm confused by:

            The screen size has made speaker placement a challenge. It's not acoustically transparent so I have the center located below the screen and the mains to the sides. My current speakers are toed in and have about 18" clearance to the side and rear walls. The bottom of the screen is about 2' above the floor.
            If there is a large screen that isn't acoustically transparent between the mains and it seems to be on the same plane as the front baffle, then no, the Statements aren't a good choice. My recommendation is also based on your usage. 80/20 HT/music tells me the greatest benefits (imaging) of the Statements won't be utilized much and the placement requirements will make it difficult for the statements to sound as they were designed.

            In other words, there are other designs that will probably fit your needs better and sound at least as good or better for home theater which is your primary usage.

            Hope that makes sense.

            Jim

            Comment

            • Elliott
              Junior Member
              • Dec 2009
              • 10

              #7
              Thanks for the advice. I'll start checking out some other designs. If anyone has recommendations please chime in.

              Comment

              • ---k---
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Nov 2005
                • 5202

                #8
                Beautiful room. I'm very jealous of your big screen and great seats for 6.

                I think not having an acoustically transparent is going to be a big issue with most designs. Do you currently have speakers there? How do they sound?

                I'm thinking that your low frequencies will pass right through screen, but high frequencies will bounce off it and behave like an in-wall speaker or a speaker inside an entertainment center (which is really bad). I really don't have a clue how bad these effects would be, but I would think they are possibly issue you might want to think about. You've spent enough on your room, I would try and get some good measurements and see if you're getting some bad effects. Then if you are, consider if it is worth it to switch to an acoustically transparent screen.

                That said, the Khans might be good choice compared to most DIY designs. You're pretty close to the side walls and rear wall. They are designed to be close to the wall. The center is designed to be below a TV.

                I wish CJD would offer his advice. He is much more an expert in both speakers and screens.
                - Ryan

                CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                Comment

                • Elliott
                  Junior Member
                  • Dec 2009
                  • 10

                  #9
                  Hi Ryan, thanks for your comments. There's actually 8 seats. I have REW and an EMC8000 mic. What measurements would be useful? Here's the speakers that are currently installed. The mains sound ok. My main complaint is with the center. Dialogue sounds boxy and hollow.

                  Center


                  L/R


                  Surrounds

                  Comment

                  • ---k---
                    Ultra Senior Member
                    • Nov 2005
                    • 5202

                    #10
                    Sorry, didn't mean to short change you two seats.

                    Measure each front speaker individually at your seat. I think REW will be good enough to see if your screen is doing funky stuff. Here is some measurements of the same speaker in the middle of room, in-wall, on-wall, and in an entertainment center. Might give you a good example of what you're looking for: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...ighlight=toole

                    Is there anyway that you can check to see if it is your current center channel speaker or room placement? Options would be to hook up your current center channel in a different setup to see if it sounds different. Or, you could maybe hook up one of your mains in that same spot and see if it dramatically changes the sound.

                    Before we send you down a path of building new speakers, I want to make sure that new speakers will solve your problem.
                    Last edited by theSven; 11 March 2023, 19:20 Saturday. Reason: Update htguide url
                    - Ryan

                    CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                    CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                    CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                    Comment

                    • Elliott
                      Junior Member
                      • Dec 2009
                      • 10

                      #11
                      I took some measurements from my listening position using REW and an EMC8000 mic. This is with 1/3 octave smoothing.

                      Left speaker response
                      Image not available

                      Left speaker waterfall
                      Image not available

                      Right speaker response
                      Image not available

                      Right Waterfall
                      Image not available

                      Center response
                      Image not available

                      Center waterfall
                      Image not available

                      Center comparison. I moved the center out from behind the screen and placed it on a stand. That's the red trace.
                      Image not available
                      Last edited by theSven; 11 March 2023, 19:21 Saturday. Reason: Update image location

                      Comment

                      • Jed
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Apr 2005
                        • 3617

                        #12
                        It doesn't surprise me that the low end is boosted given your setup is radiating in mostly a 2pi environment. You'll definitely want an "in wall" or very low BSC setup for your mains and cc.

                        What concerns me is the overall accuracy of your measurements, because the response should be relatively flat above 6k all the way to 20k. You also should limit your gate of the measurements because you are getting a lot of room interference. To get an idea of the low end response (say below 200hz) you can do a long gate nearfield plot. All this is after you get the errors worked out of your measuring system because there are obvious deficiencies there, and evaluating measurements that are not accurate from the beginning won't tell you much.

                        Are you using a Behringer mixer board to power your mic? If so make sure all the knobs are set correctly.

                        Just my 2 cents.

                        Jed

                        Comment

                        • ---k---
                          Ultra Senior Member
                          • Nov 2005
                          • 5202

                          #13
                          I'm not a measurement taking expert. I think you're getting some room effects in your measurement. REQW uses a stepped sine wave, which I think is good enough. Typically designers will use a gated pink noise with an FFT.

                          But, you can see that pulling the center channel out starts to level the frequency response out. Did it improve the sound significantly?

                          Considering that you're getting room effects, I'm not sure what to make of the mains. The left looks reasonable, but the right is pretty uneven. But, then again, here are mine for comparison (Same REQW):
                          Right:
                          Left:
                          Scale is bad, but the files are long gone.

                          I would do some more experimentation with your current placement and see if that is what is causing your dissatisfaction, because it looks like it may be an issue. I'll try and make sure CJD see these and chimes in.
                          - Ryan

                          CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                          CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                          CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                          Comment

                          • Elliott
                            Junior Member
                            • Dec 2009
                            • 10

                            #14
                            Ryan, I didn't notice much of an improvement by moving the speaker out and putting it on a stand.

                            Jed, I'm using an MAudio mobile pre USB soundcard that has builtin phantom mic power. The behringer EMC8000 I'm using came with my Velodyne SMS-1 sub eq. This setup was purchased primarily for low frequency sub measurements.

                            I have a friend coming over today who's bringing some M&K 150's to see how they sound.

                            Comment

                            • dumaresq
                              Member
                              • Mar 2008
                              • 96

                              #15
                              Sorry to hijack the thread, but I have a few questions about measurements...

                              1) What do I need to take in room measurements
                              2) What will I gain by doing that, I am guessing it will tell me if my speakers are placed wrong/if I need an EQ?
                              3) I assume the idea is to get flat(ish) response curves.

                              Thanks

                              Comment

                              • Jed
                                Ultra Senior Member
                                • Apr 2005
                                • 3617

                                #16
                                For anyone wanting to take measurements, this outlines the procedures well:

                                Comment

                                • Elliott
                                  Junior Member
                                  • Dec 2009
                                  • 10

                                  #17
                                  We just tried the M&K 150 as a center. It's sounds much better and has convinced me that a different center channel would be beneficial. I know there are some challenges with my speaker placement. I don't have a lot of flexibility there with the way the room is setup.

                                  I'll try to figure out what's wrong with my measurements. Maybe the soundcard cal is bad.

                                  Thanks for the help.

                                  Comment

                                  • dumaresq
                                    Member
                                    • Mar 2008
                                    • 96

                                    #18
                                    I just spent the last few hours setting Room EQ Wizard and doing measurements, I can say that not having the correct cal file for your mic will really make your speakers look bad I was using a RS SPL meter, without the cal file I had all kinds of peaks and valleys I didn't like, once I found the CAL file and started using it things looked WAY better... So the question is, is your mic correctly Calibrated?

                                    Now I need an amp so I can test my speakers individually

                                    Comment

                                    • Elliott
                                      Junior Member
                                      • Dec 2009
                                      • 10

                                      #19
                                      I am using the correct REW cal file for my mic. There's still no guarantee that the mic is calibrated correctly unless you pay to have it calibrated. I have read that the RS spl meter is not very accurate above 3khz.

                                      Comment

                                      • dumaresq
                                        Member
                                        • Mar 2008
                                        • 96

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Elliott
                                        I am using the correct REW cal file for my mic. There's still no guarantee that the mic is calibrated correctly unless you pay to have it calibrated. I have read that the RS spl meter is not very accurate above 3khz.
                                        Yeah I read that, not much I can do about stuff above 3hz (except room changes) since I didn't design those speakers, but below 60hz (my sub), is where I was more concerned

                                        Comment

                                        • ---k---
                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                          • Nov 2005
                                          • 5202

                                          #21
                                          Good to hear that a better speaker sounds better. I wasn't sure about my worrying, but I wanted to make sure before you spent a lot of time and money.

                                          I talked to CJD yesterday. I waved my arms and explained your room. He thought the Khans would work well there, especially the Khancenter since it was designed to be below a screen. I told him to check out this thread, he said he would but had a few things going. Maybe if you renamed the thread "Considering the Khanspires" he would notice.
                                          - Ryan

                                          CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                          CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                          CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                          Comment

                                          • cjd
                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                            • Dec 2004
                                            • 5568

                                            #22
                                            I just had supper to eat, a movie to catch, and some sleep to borrow...

                                            Ryan has covered all the important stuff already.

                                            I think that the Khans will work as well or better than most other designs, as they're most closely intended for this type of scenario. Why not start with the center and see how it works for you - less investment than a full setup.

                                            Also of course the In-Khans would be ideal for column mounting as surrounds. . .
                                            diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                            Comment

                                            • Elliott
                                              Junior Member
                                              • Dec 2009
                                              • 10

                                              #23
                                              Thanks for the info. I'll check out the Khan's. I'm also considering Jed's Dynamic 2's. I really like the 4's but would have to rework my screen wall to accomodate that large of a center. Not sure it's worth the effort.

                                              Comment

                                              • cjd
                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                • Dec 2004
                                                • 5568

                                                #24
                                                As long as it's designed for placement under a large reflective surface such as your screen represents, Jed's should work superbly.

                                                The other thing to remember is the smaller drivers will move less air. The system will have to work just a little bit harder.
                                                diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                Comment

                                                • ---k---
                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                  • Nov 2005
                                                  • 5202

                                                  #25
                                                  Yeah, but remember that Jed uses 2 mids to make up for it:
                                                  Image not available
                                                  I think it will be loafing.
                                                  Last edited by theSven; 11 March 2023, 19:21 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
                                                  - Ryan

                                                  CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                  CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                  CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Elliott
                                                    Junior Member
                                                    • Dec 2009
                                                    • 10

                                                    #26
                                                    For the low frequencies I have 2 18" Exodus Maelstrom-X subs in 9cuft dual passive radiator cabinets located behind the screen. All of my speakers are crossed at 80hz. Is it best to go with a sealed cabinet for easier sub integration?

                                                    Comment

                                                    • cjd
                                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                                      • Dec 2004
                                                      • 5568

                                                      #27
                                                      Sure, sealed is generally fine for sub integration especially if you're using drivers with adequate low frequency extension.

                                                      80Hz is a little high for my taste - I cross my RS180's at 70Hz, Ryan crosses (RS225's) at 50Hz.

                                                      It wasn't the mid surface area only, and I was looking at the mains.

                                                      C
                                                      diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                      Comment

                                                      • mgrabow
                                                        Member
                                                        • Dec 2009
                                                        • 30

                                                        #28
                                                        Forgive a dumb question but what is a statement speaker?

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Jim Holtz
                                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                                          • Mar 2005
                                                          • 3223

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by mgrabow
                                                          Forgive a dumb question but what is a statement speaker?
                                                          Not a dumb question at all. Here are links to the Statements series designs:

                                                          Statements

                                                          Mini Statements

                                                          Statements Monitors

                                                          Statements series center

                                                          Alternative Statements center

                                                          HTH

                                                          Jim
                                                          Last edited by theSven; 11 March 2023, 19:23 Saturday. Reason: Update htguide url

                                                          Comment

                                                          • mgrabow
                                                            Member
                                                            • Dec 2009
                                                            • 30

                                                            #30
                                                            Sweeeeeeeeet..........

                                                            Thanks for the info

                                                            Comment

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