MMTMM: RS150, RS28F. Do you like this idea?

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  • fjhuerta
    Super Senior Member
    • Jun 2006
    • 1140

    MMTMM: RS150, RS28F. Do you like this idea?

    Here's the deal...

    I'm very interested in trying out the RS28F. I have only built one design with a silk tweeter, and it was a really poor performer (the top mount HiVi)... and I'd also like to try to cross it over really low.

    I also have 4 RS150s I was going to use on an MTM with a pair of RS28a's, which I never built.

    I was thinking about buying 4 RS150s more, a pair of RS28Fs, and build an MMTMM similar to Zaph's. I can't use the Vifa DQ25, since the crossover point (in order to avoid the RS150 breakups) would be too low for it.

    The only thing I can think of that may be problematic is the CTC distance between the drivers affecting the speaker's performance. Otherwise, I think it may make a very good looking slim tower.

    Does it sound like a good idea?
    Javier Huerta
  • cjd
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Dec 2004
    • 5568

    #2
    You would want to go 2.5 way for sure. No question.

    C
    diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15209

      #3
      I'm fascinated by the amount of interest in the new RS28F, as to me, it just seems a re-spin of the North Creek D28, made by Usher for North Creek some years ago- before the original RS28 was introduced at PE.

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      I agree with Chris, 2.5 way.
      Last edited by theSven; 14 May 2023, 17:59 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
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      • fjhuerta
        Super Senior Member
        • Jun 2006
        • 1140

        #4
        Yeah, it can't be any other way other than 2.5 way... that's the way Zaph built his MMTMM.

        Actually I want to try the design because I have hardwood floors and I'd love to have limited vertical dispersion.

        I had never seen that tweeter Jon. I have a question... (which sounds pretty stupid, even to me, but hey!). Do you see any advantage on using the RS28a instead of the f's? I already have the metal domes. I'd just build it with the silk domes because I think they can go lower than the metals. Am I right?
        Javier Huerta

        Comment

        • Ray_D
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2005
          • 164

          #5
          Why multiple small drivers?

          Javier

          I see that you already have four RS150s. I have two I'm trying to figure what to do with; but, using multiple small drivers is a very expensive way to move air. One RS225 will move as much air as four RS150s. I built a pair RS225/RS28A 2-ways based on MarkK's crossover topology and thought it might be the best two way I've built. I have a ZA14 that I'm using in a 3-way and it sounds very good. I don't see the point in using multiple in one speaker though.

          As for interest in RS28s, my experience with them crossed at 1250Hz to the RS225 made me a fan. Mine are a couple years old and maybe I got two of the good ones. They sound great and I love the fact that they are not fragile like the tweeters with exposed domes.

          Regards

          Ray

          Comment

          • Jonasz
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2004
            • 852

            #6
            Originally posted by Ray_D
            I see that you already have four RS150s. I have two I'm trying to figure what to do with; but, using multiple small drivers is a very expensive way to move air. One RS225 will move as much air as four RS150s. I built a pair RS225/RS28A 2-ways based on MarkK's crossover topology and thought it might be the best two way I've built. I have a ZA14 that I'm using in a 3-way and it sounds very good. I don't see the point in using multiple in one speaker though.
            The point here is to get limited vertical dispersion, it's not only a question about moving air.

            Comment

            • cjd
              Ultra Senior Member
              • Dec 2004
              • 5568

              #7
              The RS28A will go plenty low for the RS150. I use them in my big towers crossed around 1.6k and they've more than enough left over to go WAY loud and stay clean.
              diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

              Comment

              • Ray_D
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2005
                • 164

                #8
                Vertical dispersion

                Originally posted by Jonasz
                The point here is to get limited vertical dispersion, it's not only a question about moving air.
                You can get limited vertical dispersion with just an MTM. When you go to a MMTMM it's about moving air.

                Comment

                • fjhuerta
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Jun 2006
                  • 1140

                  #9
                  I thought about that, too. But I'd need to buy 4 bigger woofers in order to build a good MTM. And I've been there, done that (the Nat-P's), and prefer 3-ways because of their midrange (I never really liked the midrange I get from bigger woofers trying to cross over to a tweeter). So an MMTMM sounds like a better compromise between my needs.
                  Javier Huerta

                  Comment

                  • cjd
                    Ultra Senior Member
                    • Dec 2004
                    • 5568

                    #10
                    Or build the Khanspires. :P Your stated goals are a little inconsistent - preferring a 3-way but wanting to build a 2(.5) way? MMTMM will still help reduce excursion in the mids which is generally where I hear loss of midrange clarity becoming an issue, so not totally out of line.
                    diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                    Comment

                    • fjhuerta
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Jun 2006
                      • 1140

                      #11
                      Hi C!

                      I want to build a 2.5 because all my latest designs have been 3-ways. I know I like the sound of a smaller midrange over a bigger woofer, so the RS-150 sounds like a good bet.

                      Then again, I have 4 RS225s, 2 RS270's, 4 W4-1337s, so I have plenty of options It's just that a 3 way is much harder to design properly than a 2 way, so I guess I want to avoid the complexity of yet another 7 pound crossover. It's a way of keeping things simple while keeping the things I like, too.

                      One other thing I forgot to add - my wife likes the tall, slender look. You know what this means, right?
                      Javier Huerta

                      Comment

                      • Mark K
                        Senior Member
                        • Feb 2002
                        • 388

                        #12
                        Originally posted by JonMarsh
                        I'm fascinated by the amount of interest in the new RS28F, as to me, it just seems a re-spin of the North Creek D28, made by Usher for North Creek some years ago- before the original RS28 was introduced at PE.

                        Click image for larger version  Name:	D28_Front_View_Left.jpg Views:	0 Size:	17.9 KB ID:	936508

                        I agree with Chris, 2.5 way.

                        I think that while this is true, it's more of an evolutionary improvement. Usher, er, Dayton has made some small improvements in the way that the felt pad is mounted in the nonferro versions and both the metal and fabric versions are now able to cross low very reliably. Or, at least that's what it appears with the number I've checked.

                        I'm impressed enough that I think I'm going to go back to the RS28A or F for my dipole panel. I'd actually like to adapt an RS28 motor with a DXT lens. I'm not sure I want to spend $200 on that experiment...usher needs to make a DXT style horn. They'rs so good at copying things...BADABOOM! :rofl:

                        PS I think this MMTMM is fine. I'm not sure I buy into the vertical directivity improvement, but it should still sound very good and the wife will like it.

                        You have two choices Javier,
                        You can either build the tall slender cabs, or go to the gym even more....

                        PPS I don't see a problem with a cross as low as 1.2k. But, well, um, that's just me... :E (Let's face it, a lot of folks out there think I'm a little off. They never seem to have any measurements though.)
                        Last edited by theSven; 14 May 2023, 18:00 Sunday. Reason: Update quote
                        www.audioheuristics.org

                        Comment

                        • cjd
                          Ultra Senior Member
                          • Dec 2004
                          • 5568

                          #13
                          Originally posted by fjhuerta
                          One other thing I forgot to add - my wife likes the tall, slender look. You know what this means, right?
                          Yup! If you want to go 14" wide for those RS270's you need to go at least 2M tall so they still have that tall skinny appeal!

                          :twisted:
                          diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                          Comment

                          • numberoneoppa
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2009
                            • 535

                            #14
                            Originally posted by cjd
                            Yup! If you want to go 14" wide for those RS270's you need to go at least 2M tall so they still have that tall skinny appeal!

                            :twisted:
                            Ahahaha. :P
                            -Josh

                            That feeling when things are finally going right. Yeah, that one.

                            Comment

                            • Ray_D
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2005
                              • 164

                              #15
                              The Real Criterion

                              Originally posted by fjhuerta
                              One other thing I forgot to add - my wife likes the tall, slender look. You know what this means, right?
                              So much for the technical considerations.

                              Have fun.

                              Ray

                              Comment

                              • fjhuerta
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Jun 2006
                                • 1140

                                #16
                                Originally posted by cjd
                                Yup! If you want to go 14" wide for those RS270's you need to go at least 2M tall so they still have that tall skinny appeal!

                                :twisted:
                                I've always liked the way you think. :T :T :T

                                Mark, thanks for your input. When you talk about crossing over @ 1.2 KHz, are you talking 4th order, or a Cauer-Elliptic 8th order? I seem to remember Zaph talking about how a 4th order filter actually was the best compromise when power handling was an issue, since higher order filters actually put more strain on the tweeter.
                                Javier Huerta

                                Comment

                                • ---k---
                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                  • Nov 2005
                                  • 5202

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by fjhuerta
                                  I've always liked the way you think. :T :T :T
                                  Yeah, hanging around him has gotten me in trouble.
                                  - Ryan

                                  CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                  CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                  CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                  Comment

                                  • fjhuerta
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Jun 2006
                                    • 1140

                                    #18
                                    I just modeled a crossover, using the old files from PE, adding diffraction, substracting BSC, and there's a pretty nice side effect I had forgotten with this approach... sensitivity. It's around 92 Db / W, with an 8 Ohm impedance throughout the bass and lower midrange, and drops to 3.4 Ohm (the tweeter impedance) higher up. Really, not bad! And the RS-150s sensitivity equals the RS-28a without any padding.
                                    Javier Huerta

                                    Comment

                                    • Jonasz
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Nov 2004
                                      • 852

                                      #19
                                      Mark, I saw your post over at the PE forums:
                                      I did get 106dB at 1m and 1k three tone(not my usual 0.25m!) out of one of the RS28F's before the distortion profile started to look ugly. So these folks have some extension...
                                      So, is it safe to assume you can cross these at 1kHz 4th order electrical and get away with it? I don't think I ever play 106 dB, at least not on average... :rofl:

                                      Comment

                                      • fjhuerta
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Jun 2006
                                        • 1140

                                        #20
                                        Now I wonder if the RS28A's are as strong down low as the RS28F's...
                                        Javier Huerta

                                        Comment

                                        • Mark K
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Feb 2002
                                          • 388

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Jonasz
                                          Mark, I saw your post over at the PE forums:


                                          So, is it safe to assume you can cross these at 1kHz 4th order electrical and get away with it? I don't think I ever play 106 dB, at least not on average... :rofl:

                                          Hi Jonasz,

                                          You may not average 100dB but you do want a certain amount of headroom. How much? It depends is my favorite answer...

                                          Anyway, in a two way, where you're limited by the midwoofer output, I think it's possible to go to 1k. However, I'm not actually sure about this. I'd basically have to build one and listen/test it. A 4rth order LR should be fine. I'd probably start at 1.2, but one might work. I've been thinking of ordering up a pair of RS28F's for my dipole panel, and that has the equivalent output of a single monopole 8". If I do use a 28F I'm going to try 1.2k.

                                          hth

                                          mark
                                          www.audioheuristics.org

                                          Comment

                                          • fjhuerta
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Jun 2006
                                            • 1140

                                            #22
                                            Mark, are the RS28F and A equals on the low end? I think the F is stronger, but I'm not sure...
                                            Javier Huerta

                                            Comment

                                            • Jonasz
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Nov 2004
                                              • 852

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Mark K
                                              Hi Jonasz,

                                              You may not average 100dB but you do want a certain amount of headroom. How much? It depends is my favorite answer...

                                              Anyway, in a two way, where you're limited by the midwoofer output, I think it's possible to go to 1k. However, I'm not actually sure about this. I'd basically have to build one and listen/test it. A 4rth order LR should be fine. I'd probably start at 1.2, but one might work. I've been thinking of ordering up a pair of RS28F's for my dipole panel, and that has the equivalent output of a single monopole 8". If I do use a 28F I'm going to try 1.2k.

                                              hth

                                              mark
                                              Thanks Mark.
                                              I'm actually looking for a tweeter that can go low enough for my MTM dipole panels. They use W22EX and are currently crossed just like the Orion at 1,4kHz but the lower they can be crossed the better I guess... :B

                                              The panels will in the future be crossed to a 15" dipole woofer and below that a couple of closed subs so it's going to be a pretty spl-capable system wich probably will disqualify the RS28F (and A) at 1kHz.

                                              Got any other tweeters that will work? A Neo8/Neo3PDR combo with dipole radiation as bonus perhaps? :P

                                              Comment

                                              • fjhuerta
                                                Super Senior Member
                                                • Jun 2006
                                                • 1140

                                                #24
                                                Santa Claus just confirmed - his sleigh is carrying 4 extra RS-150s and a pair of RS28F's...
                                                Javier Huerta

                                                Comment

                                                • fjhuerta
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • Jun 2006
                                                  • 1140

                                                  #25
                                                  I did some sims, added diffraction to Parts Express' text files, and I got the following results with a 1.3 KHz crossover. Pretty good!

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                                                  Last edited by theSven; 14 May 2023, 17:57 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                                  Javier Huerta

                                                  Comment

                                                  • fjhuerta
                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                    • Jun 2006
                                                    • 1140

                                                    #26
                                                    Additional images...

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                                                    Last edited by theSven; 14 May 2023, 17:58 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                                    Javier Huerta

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Dave Bullet
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Jul 2007
                                                      • 474

                                                      #27
                                                      Looking good! :T

                                                      Do you think the rolloff on the tweeter is steep enough? Have you done any excursion modeling to see whether the design is woofer or tweeter excursion limited?

                                                      Comment

                                                      • cjd
                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                        • Dec 2004
                                                        • 5568

                                                        #28
                                                        I would try for a knee at around 1kHz, maybe as low as 800Hz, that drops response to zero pretty fast.
                                                        diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                        Comment

                                                        • TacoD
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Feb 2004
                                                          • 1078

                                                          #29
                                                          Nice project.

                                                          @ Mark K, if you cross the 28A ~1200 Hz do you need a 8th order filter as John builds them?

                                                          Comment

                                                          • fjhuerta
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Jun 2006
                                                            • 1140

                                                            #30
                                                            Dave, C, I may try to get that knee in order to roll off the tweeter faster. According to Mark K, the tweeter (RS28F) should be able to survive at 1.1 KHz, so 1.3 KHz shouldn't be an issue.
                                                            Javier Huerta

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Mark K
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Feb 2002
                                                              • 388

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by TacoD
                                                              Nice project.

                                                              @ Mark K, if you cross the 28A ~1200 Hz do you need a 8th order filter as John builds them?
                                                              I don't think so. The tweeter should do fine. The quasi 8th is nice for the RS225 because you're trying to suppress breakup without a notch on the woofer side of things. This is not really a problem with the smaller drivers since breakup is higher.

                                                              I know, it feels weird trying to cross a tweeter at 1.2k. But I'm pretty sure I'm going to try an RS28A or F in my dipole panel and see what happens at 1.2-1.4k, and that is just fourth order.
                                                              www.audioheuristics.org

                                                              Comment

                                                              • jkrutke
                                                                Senior Member
                                                                • Dec 2005
                                                                • 590

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by fjhuerta
                                                                I just modeled a crossover, using the old files from PE, adding diffraction, substracting BSC, and there's a pretty nice side effect I had forgotten with this approach... sensitivity. It's around 92 Db / W, with an 8 Ohm impedance throughout the bass and lower midrange, and drops to 3.4 Ohm (the tweeter impedance) higher up. Really, not bad! And the RS-150s sensitivity equals the RS-28a without any padding.
                                                                Looks good so far, but I'm not sure if you could get 92 db in a 2.5-way full BSC series parallel setup like that. Maybe with all 4 drivers in parallel. You might want to recheck your node monitoring - You may have made the same error I did the first time I set up a series-parallel in Soundeasy - I thought I had a 94 db system til I thought about how that could not be possible. The node monitoring configuration isn't obvious.

                                                                Your tweeter will likely need padding, which is good, since a resistor across the leads will help damp the tweeter's resonance and reduce the tweeter's output in the 400-700 Hz range after the filter is in place. You may even consider a LCR shunt to flatten the tweeter impedance.
                                                                Zaph|Audio

                                                                Comment

                                                                • jkrutke
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Dec 2005
                                                                  • 590

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by Mark K
                                                                  PS I think this MMTMM is fine. I'm not sure I buy into the vertical directivity improvement, but it should still sound very good and the wife will like it.
                                                                  I'm pretty sold on it. Audibly, I think I hear it the best with male vocals. (Diana Krall counts for that :B ) The vertical polar plots and room response curves say one thing, but my ears tell me there's a certain smoothness there that I don't get with a stand mounted TM.
                                                                  Zaph|Audio

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • fjhuerta
                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                    • Jun 2006
                                                                    • 1140

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Hi John,

                                                                    That's one thing I was wondering about. Two drivers in series should keep the same sensitivity (around 88 dB/W, IIRC... half the power to each driver but double the surface area, am I on the right track?), so a series-parallel arrangement should be 94 dB/W... minus 6 dB due to BSC - 88 db /W, or so. But LSPCad thinks it's 6 dB higher.

                                                                    I think I had the same problem before. I'm really not sure as to how to find out where the node monitoring configuration is, but I'll look for it. The other solution I can think of is taking "real life" 2 meter measurements of the inner and outer woofers and simulating that on LSPCad - I'd assume that would take care of the sensitivity issue.
                                                                    Javier Huerta

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • fjhuerta
                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                      • Jun 2006
                                                                      • 1140

                                                                      #35
                                                                      The RS28f tweeter...

                                                                      ...arrived today.

                                                                      I wasn't aware it had a wire mesh, too. So it looks identical to the RS28A. That's pretty cool - I won't have to worry about people touching the dome (why does EVERYONE think it's cool to leave a fingerprint on a driver???)

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                                                                      Last edited by theSven; 14 May 2023, 17:58 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                                                      Javier Huerta

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • ---k---
                                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                                        • Nov 2005
                                                                        • 5202

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Nice. This should be a nice design.
                                                                        - Ryan

                                                                        CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                                        CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                                        CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • fjhuerta
                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                          • Jun 2006
                                                                          • 1140

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Thanks Ryan, hopefully it will be!

                                                                          I've been modeling the bass enclosure, and it seems 4 little RS-150s really need around 60L or so in order to sing (when using a ported box). That's a huge enclosure!

                                                                          I should have no problem with it, considering it's a floorstander. Still, I wonder if going sealed may be a better option. After all, I'll be using a 15" sealed sub with them.
                                                                          Javier Huerta

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • ---k---
                                                                            Ultra Senior Member
                                                                            • Nov 2005
                                                                            • 5202

                                                                            #38
                                                                            60L??? That's all???

                                                                            Well, since you want to get the tweeter up at ear height, you're going to end up with a pretty tall box. I bet you'll have no problem coming up with 60L.
                                                                            - Ryan

                                                                            CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                                            CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                                            CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • fjhuerta
                                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                                              • Jun 2006
                                                                              • 1140

                                                                              #39
                                                                              60L for 4 little woofers seems to me like a bit too much (how soon I forget my last enclosure was 100L for a single 8" woofer!)
                                                                              Javier Huerta

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • ---k---
                                                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                • Nov 2005
                                                                                • 5202

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Mine is 100L too.

                                                                                Based on CJD's experience (which I share), those RS150 like a lot of volume to breath.
                                                                                - Ryan

                                                                                CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                                                CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                                                CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • jkrutke
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Dec 2005
                                                                                  • 590

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Originally posted by fjhuerta
                                                                                  I think I had the same problem before. I'm really not sure as to how to find out where the node monitoring configuration is, but I'll look for it. The other solution I can think of is taking "real life" 2 meter measurements of the inner and outer woofers and simulating that on LSPCad - I'd assume that would take care of the sensitivity issue.
                                                                                  I don't think real life measurements will help, this is a circuit configuration issue. I'm not sure what to call it besides "node monitoring", but you likely are monitoring nodes 2 to ground and 4 to ground. It will show the proper system level if you monitor nodes 3 to ground and 5 to ground, but twice to model each inner and outer woofer.

                                                                                  That's the way I had to do it with SE, not sure if LspCAD works like that. I haven't touched LspCAD in 5 years and it was much different back then. but these days they seem to work similar so I'd assume there's a way to set the nodes in there.

                                                                                  Originally posted by fjhuerta
                                                                                  ...arrived today.

                                                                                  I wasn't aware it had a wire mesh, too. So it looks identical to the RS28A. That's pretty cool - I won't have to worry about people touching the dome (why does EVERYONE think it's cool to leave a fingerprint on a driver???)
                                                                                  Those are beautiful tweeters. Looking at the flat faceplate design, I can't help but think they would be perfect for a modified MCM waveguide setup. Metal domes never seemed to work well like that because the phase shield causes some nasty response issues.
                                                                                  Zaph|Audio

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