Dayton RS28F silk dome testing?

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  • Jim Holtz
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 3223

    Dayton RS28F silk dome testing?

    I've been traveling this week and haven't been able to stay up on things. Has anyone tested and posted the results of the new silK dome yet? I've been looking hard at the SB dimple domes but they seem to have rapidly rising distortion profiles below 2K.

    I read some quick comments from Mark K. that the RS silk dome should cross very low nicely. Has anything been posted yet? I'd love to see the results!

    Jim
  • dlneubec
    Super Senior Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 1454

    #2
    MarkK has tested it, but I'm not sure the results have been pubished yet. You can see his comments about it here:

    Dan N.

    Comment

    • Jim Holtz
      Ultra Senior Member
      • Mar 2005
      • 3223

      #3
      Hi Dan,

      Thanks for the link. I had read that thread and Mark's glowing comments. I was curious if anyone else had measurements to add. I'm very interested in seeing the results of the test when Mark gets time to post them.

      I've been comparing the RS28A (since Mark said they were nearly identical) and the SB full flange dimple dome on Zaph's website. The SB seems to have a slight advantage in distortion down to about 1800 Hz. if I'm reading it correctly.

      Both look to be great tweeters. What are your thoughts?

      Jim

      Comment

      • Mark K
        Senior Member
        • Feb 2002
        • 388

        #4
        Hi Jim,
        I'm trying to finish the dimple dome tests this weekend. I should have something up by Sunday night.

        mark
        www.audioheuristics.org

        Comment

        • Jed
          Ultra Senior Member
          • Apr 2005
          • 3617

          #5
          Another tweeter that is overlooked (sometimes) is the Scan Speak HDS tweeter. It can cross low and has class leading HD. Not only that it sounds great with much better top end dispersion than the SB dimple domes. Add it to the list to compare to the new RS28F.

          Comment

          • Jim Holtz
            Ultra Senior Member
            • Mar 2005
            • 3223

            #6
            Originally posted by Mark K
            Hi Jim,
            I'm trying to finish the dimple dome tests this weekend. I should have something up by Sunday night.

            mark
            Hi Mark,

            Cool! I didn't know you had a pair of dimple domes too. That'll be a very interesting comparison! :T

            I appreciate your work! ;x(

            Jim

            Comment

            • Jim Holtz
              Ultra Senior Member
              • Mar 2005
              • 3223

              #7
              Originally posted by Jed
              Another tweeter that is overlooked (sometimes) is the Scan Speak HDS tweeter. It can cross low and has class leading HD. Not only that it sounds great with much better top end dispersion than the SB dimple domes. Add it to the list to compare to the new RS28F.
              Hi Jed,

              I agree the HDS is a very nice sounding tweeter. However, like most Scan Speak drivers, I find it to be over priced compared to the other manufacturers. That is just my opinion of course so YMMV...

              I'm curious about the top end dispersion comment. What does the HDS design do that gives it better top end disperion than the RS28F for example?

              Thanks to you too for all of your testing! I appreciate it! :T

              Jim

              Comment

              • Jed
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Apr 2005
                • 3617

                #8
                The HDS has a smaller/lighter dome than the SB dimple dome which equates to better dispersion. It's also not much more, has lower THD, and has a nice faceplate unlike the plastic SB. I haven't tested the RS28F so I can't compare them, but my money is on the HDS for overall performance at a price that isn't that much more. I still wouldn't mind trying the new Dayton though as it looks like a good performer as well.

                Having listen to both the SB29 and HDS in identical designs, I can tell you the HDS has much more top end extension and just sounds very detailed in comparison.

                Comment

                • Jim Holtz
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • Mar 2005
                  • 3223

                  #9
                  Hi Jed,

                  Thanks for the response and your thoughts on the HDS. I've heard it and it is a very nice tweeter.

                  I went to your website to check out your testing and I see you've taken the measurements off. I'm really sorry to see that. I've found you along with Zaph, Mark K and Augiepro to be a great resource to the DIY community.

                  Jim

                  Comment

                  • Jed
                    Ultra Senior Member
                    • Apr 2005
                    • 3617

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                    Hi Jed,

                    Thanks for the response and your thoughts on the HDS. I've heard it and it is a very nice tweeter.

                    I went to your website to check out your testing and I see you've taken the measurements off. I'm really sorry to see that. I've found you along with Zaph, Mark K and Augiepro to be a great resource to the DIY community.

                    Jim
                    Don't worry I'll be uploading it again. I've just been working on my new website design and haven't linked to it yet. I should have some time soon to get it up and running. I've got a few new drivers like the Accuton C44 and Scan Speak 13M classic to add to it.

                    Comment

                    • Jed
                      Ultra Senior Member
                      • Apr 2005
                      • 3617

                      #11
                      Jim, the driver tests should now be on my site under the specials/links tab until I can get things more organized on the site.

                      Comment

                      • Jim Holtz
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Mar 2005
                        • 3223

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Jed
                        Jim, the driver tests should now be on my site under the specials link tab until I can get things more organized on the site.
                        Thanks Jed! I was bummed when they weren't available. Thank you for your contributions and hard work! It is appreciated. :T

                        Jim

                        Comment

                        • Jed
                          Ultra Senior Member
                          • Apr 2005
                          • 3617

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                          Thanks Jed! I was bummed when they weren't available. Thank you for your contributions and hard work! It is appreciated. :T

                          Jim
                          My pleasure and thanks for the little nudge to get that back up on the site.

                          Comment

                          • Mark K
                            Senior Member
                            • Feb 2002
                            • 388

                            #14
                            I think Jed's point is a good one. The SB has a more xt25 type (it is, I believe a ring radiator ?) Is it fixed behind the dimple? I guess I should take it apart and see. I think that generally more extended dispersion is more pleasing.

                            Now which is better, the SS HDS or the RS28F. Hmm?
                            www.audioheuristics.org

                            Comment

                            • dlneubec
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Jan 2006
                              • 1454

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                              Hi Dan,

                              Thanks for the link. I had read that thread and Mark's glowing comments. I was curious if anyone else had measurements to add. I'm very interested in seeing the results of the test when Mark gets time to post them.

                              I've been comparing the RS28A (since Mark said they were nearly identical) and the SB full flange dimple dome on Zaph's website. The SB seems to have a slight advantage in distortion down to about 1800 Hz. if I'm reading it correctly.

                              Both look to be great tweeters. What are your thoughts?

                              Jim
                              Hi Jim,

                              Of the three discussed, the only one I'm famliar with is the SS/HDS tweeter that I used in the BaSSlines. When I got my (then Peerless HDS) they were only $55, so price was not an issue.

                              I've used the RS28AS-4 and I would probably lean toward the HDS in most applications, but the RS28F is another story. I'd really like to try that one out. The same goes for the SBA dimple domes.

                              One thing the SBA and HDS has is a little higher sensitivity than the RS tweeters, which could be a deciding factor in a specific design. I think some of have suggested that a ring radiator should theoretically be better in a waveguide application than a standard dome, so in that application, perhaps the dimple dome would stand out.
                              Dan N.

                              Comment

                              • dlr
                                Senior Member
                                • Feb 2005
                                • 402

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Mark K
                                I think Jed's point is a good one. The SB has a more xt25 type (it is, I believe a ring radiator ?) Is it fixed behind the dimple? I guess I should take it apart and see. I think that generally more extended dispersion is more pleasing.
                                If someone opens them up, please post photos. I have a suspicion of how they're made, that it's the SB25 diaphragm with the same mushroom shaped vent cover, just shaped and glued at the dimple.

                                The nickname "dimple dome" seems far more appropriate than ring radiator because the limited movement area leaves a huge part of the dome free to radiate and should only come into play at the upper end. Other than actually limiting the overall displacement capability as well, as one might imply by checking the dimensions of the gap/coil of each (thanks to John k for pointing that out). These things can't radiate as a true ring, it's got to be a lot closer to what occurs in a hard dome with a phase shield in practice.

                                Dave
                                Dave's Speaker Pages

                                Comment

                                • fjhuerta
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Jun 2006
                                  • 1140

                                  #17
                                  At the PE site, it says that the RS28F can be crossed over at 1 ~ 1.1 KHz with the proper filters.

                                  Now, *that's* low. I wonder if those numbers are right...
                                  Javier Huerta

                                  Comment

                                  • JonMarsh
                                    Mad Max Moderator
                                    • Aug 2000
                                    • 15214

                                    #18
                                    It will come down to how much SPL and power handling you want- the Millenium Excel tweeter is a champ in that regards, but it, too, can be blown up if you through enough power at it.
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                                    • Mark K
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Feb 2002
                                      • 388

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by dlr
                                      If someone opens them up, please post photos. I have a suspicion of how they're made, that it's the SB25 diaphragm with the same mushroom shaped vent cover, just shaped and glued at the dimple.

                                      The nickname "dimple dome" seems far more appropriate than ring radiator because the limited movement area leaves a huge part of the dome free to radiate and should only come into play at the upper end. Other than actually limiting the overall displacement capability as well, as one might imply by checking the dimensions of the gap/coil of each (thanks to John k for pointing that out). These things can't radiate as a true ring, it's got to be a lot closer to what occurs in a hard dome with a phase shield in practice.

                                      Dave
                                      Dave,

                                      It seems like the actual voice coil faceplate is glued in place. The faceplace is a two piece, and the outer plate comes off, but the inner doesn't or, doesn't easily. Since the SB29 pair is not mine, I'm loath to pry it of, since I think it's just attached with a dimple of glue to the pole piece. Prying the VC off looks to be a one way street...
                                      www.audioheuristics.org

                                      Comment

                                      • Mark K
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Feb 2002
                                        • 388

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by fjhuerta
                                        At the PE site, it says that the RS28F can be crossed over at 1 ~ 1.1 KHz with the proper filters.

                                        Now, *that's* low. I wonder if those numbers are right...
                                        I admit, that's gutsy of the marketing guys :E

                                        But it's not a completely unreasonable number. The 1k nonlinear tones aren't bad. I might not go to 1k but I'll say there are tweeters that have a worse distortion pattern at 2k than the RS28F has at 1k...
                                        www.audioheuristics.org

                                        Comment

                                        • dlr
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Feb 2005
                                          • 402

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Mark K
                                          Dave,

                                          It seems like the actual voice coil faceplate is glued in place. The faceplace is a two piece, and the outer plate comes off, but the inner doesn't or, doesn't easily. Since the SB29 pair is not mine, I'm loath to pry it of, since I think it's just attached with a dimple of glue to the pole piece. Prying the VC off looks to be a one way street...
                                          I suspected as much. I'd bet that the response could be further smoothed if the chamber could be removed, but that's also not easily done.

                                          dlr
                                          Dave's Speaker Pages

                                          Comment

                                          • Mark K
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Feb 2002
                                            • 388

                                            #22
                                            Does anyone have any 1m posted response curves for the RS28F besides the PE once? Is that PE curve really for 1watt or 2.83v...
                                            www.audioheuristics.org

                                            Comment

                                            • Jim Holtz
                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                              • Mar 2005
                                              • 3223

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Mark K
                                              Does anyone have any 1m posted response curves for the RS28F besides the PE once? Is that PE curve really for 1watt or 2.83v...
                                              Hi Mark,

                                              FWIW, the RS28F spec sheet says 88 db at one watt/one meter rather than 2.83 volts. Also, there were posts on PE by individuals that had purchased RS28F's that posted they were marked about 90 db.

                                              HTH

                                              Jim

                                              Comment

                                              • Mark K
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Feb 2002
                                                • 388

                                                #24
                                                Hi Jim,

                                                I had some technical problems with the SB29 and it made me wonder about the sensitivities I was getting. Anyway, I straightened it all out this afternonn.

                                                Yes, the voltage sensitivity is ~90-91dB/2.83v for the RS28F.

                                                I've finished all the tests, but probably won't have the data up.

                                                Both the RS28F and SB29 are very nice and can go low. From a brute force perspective, the RS28F goes a bit lower. I redid all the distortion measurements this afternoon to double check so I can't comment much else till I reprocess and post. Hopefully this week.

                                                mark
                                                www.audioheuristics.org

                                                Comment

                                                • Jim Holtz
                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                  • 3223

                                                  #25
                                                  Thanks Mark! :T

                                                  I'm looking forward to seeing the results.

                                                  Jim

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Jonasz
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Nov 2004
                                                    • 852

                                                    #26
                                                    Have anyone heard or tested the SB25AC-C0004? It also looks like a tweeter that can reach really low. Lesser area than the SB29 but more than twice the xmax (if that counts for anything).

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                                                    Comment

                                                    • dlr
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Feb 2005
                                                      • 402

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by Jonasz
                                                      Have anyone heard or tested the SB25AC-C0004? It also looks like a tweeter that can reach really low. Lesser area than the SB29 but more than twice the xmax (if that counts for anything).

                                                      Free support for loudspeaker projects, sourcing OEM speaker building supplies, and passive crossover design. We sell raw speaker drivers (tweeters, woofers, subwoofer, midrange drivers, full range drivers), speaker kits, amplifiers, capacitors, resistors, and inductors.


                                                      That's the original SB25 with a metal dome. Same motor gap and voice coil dimensions.

                                                      Dave
                                                      Dave's Speaker Pages

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Jonasz
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Nov 2004
                                                        • 852

                                                        #28
                                                        Is that a good or a bad thing?

                                                        I notice the price is almost twice the regular SB25. Usually it seems the metal and fabric versions of the same tweeter are also priced about the same.

                                                        Comment

                                                        • dlr
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Feb 2005
                                                          • 402

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Jonasz
                                                          Is that a good or a bad thing?

                                                          I notice the price is almost twice the regular SB25. Usually it seems the metal and fabric versions of the same tweeter are also priced about the same.

                                                          I guess it depends on your point of view. How's that for taking a stand? 8O

                                                          It makes good economic sense for the company. They all do that. Variants of the same motor are in almost all lineups. That does mean that any resultant issues are in each as well, such as the dip below about 3.5K due to the incomplete damping of the pole-piece vent. That is nearly eliminated in the mod I used in my Chameleon and can be in this one as well. In that regard, the non-dimple domes may be a better driver once modified for many applications.

                                                          What I don't know is if there is any better usable low end extension in the dimple dome. There may be, but if one is not using it, buy the original or this new one, mod it as I did and the result will match the dimple dome in most ways as I see it. The dimple dome version can't be modded unless the chamber were to be removed, not recommended, by me at least. But then it's already very good below 10K. That would one reason to use it over the SB25 versions if no modding is done.

                                                          Dave
                                                          Dave's Speaker Pages

                                                          Comment

                                                          • fjhuerta
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Jun 2006
                                                            • 1140

                                                            #30
                                                            Thanks for your testing Mark!!! It's really appreciated.

                                                            I'm thinking about building an MMTMM with the Dayton RS150's and this tweeter, so perhaps crossing it at 1.4 ~ 1.6 KHz would be a good idea. I'd love to try 1.3, but I'm not sure the tweeter could keep up with 4 little woofers...
                                                            Javier Huerta

                                                            Comment

                                                            • cjd
                                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                                              • Dec 2004
                                                              • 5568

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by fjhuerta
                                                              Thanks for your testing Mark!!! It's really appreciated.

                                                              I'm thinking about building an MMTMM with the Dayton RS150's and this tweeter, so perhaps crossing it at 1.4 ~ 1.6 KHz would be a good idea. I'd love to try 1.3, but I'm not sure the tweeter could keep up with 4 little woofers...
                                                              With the RS150 1.6 should be plenty - I usually target ~1.8k.
                                                              diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                              Comment

                                                              • fjhuerta
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Jun 2006
                                                                • 1140

                                                                #32
                                                                Hi C!

                                                                Do you feel the RS150 can be crossed over at that point? I feel the only disadvantage of the RS woofers is that you have to cross them really really low.. even the RS125 needs a very low point (I tried 2 KHz and I felt it was the highest I could go - I'd really have preferred something lower).
                                                                Javier Huerta

                                                                Comment

                                                                • cjd
                                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                                  • Dec 2004
                                                                  • 5568

                                                                  #33
                                                                  RS125 and RS150 need (IMO) to be crossed around the same spot. I should add, 1.8k 4th order with little tweak to push the breakup down a bit is one I commonly use. You can push lower as you wish. It all depends on slope and how you manage breakup. If you want 2nd order, 1.8k is too high. But then my ideal is at least -30dB, preferably -50dB on the worst of the breakup.
                                                                  diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                                  Comment

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