Zaph's new SB Acoustics 3-way

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  • benchtester
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2007
    • 213

    Zaph's new SB Acoustics 3-way

    He's at it again:




    Kit can be found at Madisound:

    Free support for loudspeaker projects, sourcing OEM speaker building supplies, and passive crossover design. We sell raw speaker drivers (tweeters, woofers, subwoofer, midrange drivers, full range drivers), speaker kits, amplifiers, capacitors, resistors, and inductors.
  • evilskillit
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2008
    • 468

    #2
    Hrm, one word. WOW. He's right everybody makes small or skinny speakers these days. It is refreshing to see something that isn't afraid to say, "I've got a huge woofer. What of it?" I'd love to hear a pair.

    Comment

    • A9X
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2007
      • 107

      #3
      Interesting. I was wondering about a smallish bedroom speaker, and this might do it, especially as I'd rather single amp there.

      Comment

      • DeathMonk
        Senior Member
        • Jun 2008
        • 232

        #4
        Originally posted by evilskillit
        Hrm, one word. WOW. He's right everybody makes small or skinny speakers these days. It is refreshing to see something that isn't afraid to say, "I've got a huge woofer. What of it?" I'd love to hear a pair.
        I agree

        Maybe I'll build a pair down the road.

        Comment

        • Jonasz
          Senior Member
          • Nov 2004
          • 852

          #5
          Originally posted by evilskillit
          Hrm, one word. WOW. He's right everybody makes small or skinny speakers these days. It is refreshing to see something that isn't afraid to say, "I've got a huge woofer. What of it?" I'd love to hear a pair.
          Exactly!
          Small speakers suck! :twisted:

          This is definitely a step in the right direction... :P

          Comment

          • kingpin
            Senior Member
            • Jun 2006
            • 958

            #6
            It's starting to look like the larger speaker designs using 12" or bigger woofers are making a comeback. Just look at all the high efficiency designs popping up that are geared more for dynamics.
            Call me "MIKE"
            "PROJECT OVERKILL" :B:B -WWMTMSS- :B:B
            "PROJECT OVERKILL" is now the :B:B "mini-me's" :B:B
            CLICK HERE TO SEE PROJECT OVERKILL
            CLICK HERE TO SEE ALL MY BUILD PICS
            "PROJECT OVERKILL" IS GOING UNDER THE KNIFE. :B :B "mini-me's :B :B !!
            Dual sealed 18" Mach-5 ixl 18.4 subs

            Comment

            • numberoneoppa
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2009
              • 535

              #7
              Wow, these speakers look awesome (not just aesthetically). They're quite a bit over my price range, though. :P
              -Josh

              That feeling when things are finally going right. Yeah, that one.

              Comment

              • A9X
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2007
                • 107

                #8
                Originally posted by kingpin
                It's starting to look like the larger speaker designs using 12" or bigger woofers are making a comeback. Just look at all the high efficiency designs popping up that are geared more for dynamics.
                These are only 88dB/W

                Comment

                • kingpin
                  Senior Member
                  • Jun 2006
                  • 958

                  #9
                  oops! Guess I missed that part. ops:
                  Call me "MIKE"
                  "PROJECT OVERKILL" :B:B -WWMTMSS- :B:B
                  "PROJECT OVERKILL" is now the :B:B "mini-me's" :B:B
                  CLICK HERE TO SEE PROJECT OVERKILL
                  CLICK HERE TO SEE ALL MY BUILD PICS
                  "PROJECT OVERKILL" IS GOING UNDER THE KNIFE. :B :B "mini-me's :B :B !!
                  Dual sealed 18" Mach-5 ixl 18.4 subs

                  Comment

                  • Hdale85
                    Moderator Emeritus
                    • Jan 2006
                    • 16075

                    #10
                    88dB isn't the inefficient. Honestly with how some of the speaker companies bloat their specs I bet 88dB would be more efficient then you'd think

                    Comment

                    • Curly Woods
                      Senior Member
                      • Dec 2005
                      • 125

                      #11
                      Originally posted by A9X
                      These are only 88dB/W
                      Madisound is listing efficiency as 92db. Where did you see the stated 88db?
                      Mike Mastin

                      Comment

                      • ---k---
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Nov 2005
                        • 5202

                        #12
                        Wow. Great write up by Zaph. Very well thought out and implemented design.

                        I think the popularity of speakers like the Statements shows that there is a big market out there for bigger and more expensive DIY kits than the budget kits. I think this is a great thing for our hobby, and really appreciate the work that Zaph is doing.
                        - Ryan

                        CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                        CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                        CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                        Comment

                        • stangbat
                          Senior Member
                          • Jan 2008
                          • 171

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Curly Woods
                          Madisound is listing efficiency as 92db. Where did you see the stated 88db?
                          Zaph also lists it as 91-92 dB on the speaker's design page.

                          Comment

                          • jkrutke
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2005
                            • 590

                            #14
                            Hi all, thanks for the comments. It was a fun little project. I've got an email address set up for this one to answer some questions.

                            Originally posted by Curly Woods
                            Madisound is listing efficiency as 92db. Where did you see the stated 88db?
                            He probably got it from the SE T/S parameters page. The SPL number on the T/S parameters is an efficiency number based on one watt and is calculated rather than actual. The SPL shown on the response graphs is a sensitivity number based on 2.83 volts and is actual rather than calculated.

                            Anechoic 2.83V system sensitivity for this is indeed 91-92 dB. (92 up through the midbass, about 91 above that) It's not as simple as anechoic woofer minus baffle step however, the woofer's proximity to the floor and the large baffle width complicates an estimate of system sensitivity as compared to small 2-ways.

                            I'll go into that a bit more when I write up the FAQ. I've already had a few questions on the subject.
                            Zaph|Audio

                            Comment

                            • Jim Holtz
                              Ultra Senior Member
                              • Mar 2005
                              • 3223

                              #15
                              Hi John,

                              I also wanted to add to the many congratulations on a job well done. :T

                              I appreciate a large full bodied speaker and I'm looking forward to hearing them. I have yet to hear any SB Acoustics designs. They are of particular interest to me, both woofers and tweeters.

                              Jim

                              Comment

                              • WillyD
                                Senior Member
                                • Feb 2006
                                • 675

                                #16
                                Oh wow. This system looks great. Would love to build a pair of these one day.

                                Comment

                                • Bastek
                                  Member
                                  • Apr 2008
                                  • 41

                                  #17
                                  I love big speakers, they all sound great in my basement.
                                  I think these will look great with a black rubber foam pad to cover the space next to the MTMs. Will that change the sound character of the speakers?

                                  Comment

                                  • djg
                                    Member
                                    • May 2008
                                    • 57

                                    #18
                                    You could bury a monkey in that cabinet. Seriously, very impressive. Should replace the dated Magna C*m Laude project over at PE, and sound much better.

                                    Comment

                                    • dumaresq
                                      Member
                                      • Mar 2008
                                      • 96

                                      #19
                                      I love big speakers too, but the room placement is crazy!
                                      "It probably goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - This system is designed with large rooms in mind. Ideally, the baffles should be at least 4 feet out from the back wall, and 5-6 feet from the side wall. This is not the system to use if you have a 12 foot room with a 60" TV in it."

                                      You need to have a room that is pretty wide!

                                      Comment

                                      • Jim Holtz
                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                        • Mar 2005
                                        • 3223

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by dumaresq
                                        I love big speakers too, but the room placement is crazy!
                                        "It probably goes without saying, but I'll say it anyway - This system is designed with large rooms in mind. Ideally, the baffles should be at least 4 feet out from the back wall, and 5-6 feet from the side wall. This is not the system to use if you have a 12 foot room with a 60" TV in it."

                                        You need to have a room that is pretty wide!
                                        Hmmm.... Not all big speakers require clearance like that. This a picture of my listening/home theater room which is 15'x20'. The Statements have 18" of clearance from the sidewalls and from the wall behind the speakers. Plus, there's a 61" TV between them. They sound great! :W

                                        Jim

                                        Click image for larger version

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                                        Last edited by theSven; 10 June 2023, 10:45 Saturday. Reason: Update image location

                                        Comment

                                        • Jinjuku
                                          Junior Member
                                          • Oct 2007
                                          • 17

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by jkrutke
                                          Hi all, thanks for the comments. It was a fun little project. I've got an email address set up for this one to answer some questions.



                                          He probably got it from the SE T/S parameters page. The SPL number on the T/S parameters is an efficiency number based on one watt and is calculated rather than actual. The SPL shown on the response graphs is a sensitivity number based on 2.83 volts and is actual rather than calculated.

                                          Anechoic 2.83V system sensitivity for this is indeed 91-92 dB. (92 up through the midbass, about 91 above that) It's not as simple as anechoic woofer minus baffle step however, the woofer's proximity to the floor and the large baffle width complicates an estimate of system sensitivity as compared to small 2-ways.

                                          I'll go into that a bit more when I write up the FAQ. I've already had a few questions on the subject.
                                          Still hoping and holding out for a ZA5/Vifa/RS225 MTMWW 3way :B

                                          Wishing I had the design chops

                                          Comment

                                          • Bastek
                                            Member
                                            • Apr 2008
                                            • 41

                                            #22
                                            With untreated rooms you should keep the distances recommended by Zaph.
                                            With room treatment and bass traps you can place them closer to the walls, but not less than 2-3 feet depending on BSC. It's also a personal preference, deeper soundstage vs accurate imaging. My big speakers don't like the walls in my 20x20' basement.

                                            Image not available
                                            Last edited by theSven; 10 June 2023, 10:44 Saturday. Reason: Remove broken image link

                                            Comment

                                            • numberoneoppa
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Sep 2009
                                              • 535

                                              #23
                                              Your wife didn't shoot/castrate you for that?
                                              -Josh

                                              That feeling when things are finally going right. Yeah, that one.

                                              Comment

                                              • Bastek
                                                Member
                                                • Apr 2008
                                                • 41

                                                #24
                                                Everything in that room is temporary, i swap speakers-treatments almost monthly, i think the highs have more sparkle-clarity without the ceiling foam, so that have to go. I don't really care how it looks as long as it sounds good.
                                                BTW, what is a "wife"?

                                                Comment

                                                • kevinp.
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Apr 2008
                                                  • 107

                                                  #25
                                                  so forgive my ignorance, what about big speakers dictates the size of the room or placement to walls besides BSC? Realistically, aren't larger drivers more directional than smaller ones at any given frequency?

                                                  Comment

                                                  • augerpro
                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                    • Aug 2006
                                                    • 1866

                                                    #26
                                                    Zaph I wonder if you could share any impressions of the DQ25 versus the SB29. If not subjective, then maybe how directive the SB29 is at lower frequencies (3-6khz) than the DQ25. I have a sample of the neo SB29 and I could pretty much drop it in to my BBV2 for a truly no compromise design, but my experience tells me a 25mm dome may sound quite different than a 29mm ring radiator, and in the past I've sided with the smaller dome, even if the behavior wasn't quite as nice. Example: Peerless HDS over the SS9800 and XT25.
                                                    ~Brandon 8O
                                                    Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                                    Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                                    DriverVault
                                                    Soma Sonus

                                                    Comment

                                                    • fjhuerta
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Jun 2006
                                                      • 1140

                                                      #27
                                                      Zaph, this one left me speechless. I just wished I could build that speaker right now... I'm sure it'd last me for years and years! I LOVE IT!

                                                      I'd love it if you could go deeper into how you measured the woofer section. I read your write up, but I couldn't really understand how you did it. The woofer, being so close to the floor, will never behave in a way I can understand how to model. I suppose there's no BSC, but I don't know how I could double check that assumption.

                                                      From what I could understand, it was the most complex part of your design. I surely hope you could go deeper into the subject.
                                                      Javier Huerta

                                                      Comment

                                                      • jkrutke
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Dec 2005
                                                        • 590

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by augerpro
                                                        Zaph I wonder if you could share any impressions of the DQ25 versus the SB29. If not subjective, then maybe how directive the SB29 is at lower frequencies (3-6khz) than the DQ25. I have a sample of the neo SB29 and I could pretty much drop it in to my BBV2 for a truly no compromise design, but my experience tells me a 25mm dome may sound quite different than a 29mm ring radiator, and in the past I've sided with the smaller dome, even if the behavior wasn't quite as nice. Example: Peerless HDS over the SS9800 and XT25.
                                                        I've got the neo SB29 on my test baffle right now, and I can always get the DQ25 on it right after for some off axis comparisons. I plan on doing some power handling comparisons also. I would expect the SB29 to fare better in this regard but we'll see. Also, I've been meaning to get some vertical vs horizontal plots of the DQ25 to see if the oblong phase shield is doing anything.


                                                        Originally posted by fjhuerta
                                                        I'd love it if you could go deeper into how you measured the woofer section. I read your write up, but I couldn't really understand how you did it. The woofer, being so close to the floor, will never behave in a way I can understand how to model. I suppose there's no BSC, but I don't know how I could double check that assumption.
                                                        I've got that question already asked and answered in the FAQ section, which I'll post tonight after I check it for spelling and grammar. It's not too hard, really.
                                                        Zaph|Audio

                                                        Comment

                                                        • augerpro
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Aug 2006
                                                          • 1866

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by jkrutke
                                                          Also, I've been meaning to get some vertical vs horizontal plots of the DQ25 to see if the oblong phase shield is doing anything.
                                                          As far as I remember there isn't a lot of difference, but with the shield vertical the high frequency null seems to be slightly smaller over more a wider angle horizontally. That's the way I'm using it currently, but I should look at all the measurements again to make sure that was the case.
                                                          ~Brandon 8O
                                                          Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                                          Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                                          DriverVault
                                                          Soma Sonus

                                                          Comment

                                                          • augerpro
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Aug 2006
                                                            • 1866

                                                            #30
                                                            John here are the plots of the DQ25 off axis on my BBV2 speaker, 0-10-20-30 degrees.

                                                            With the shield vertical:

                                                            Click image for larger version

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                                                            And with it horizontal:

                                                            Click image for larger version

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                                                            Not as much difference as I thought. I'd be curious if you measure the same.
                                                            Last edited by theSven; 10 June 2023, 10:42 Saturday. Reason: Update image location
                                                            ~Brandon 8O
                                                            Please donate to my Waveguides for CNC and 3D Printing Project!!
                                                            Please donate to my Monster Box Construction Methods Project!!
                                                            DriverVault
                                                            Soma Sonus

                                                            Comment

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