Subwoofer Eq'ing

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  • yousuredo2
    Senior Member
    • Jun 2006
    • 206

    Subwoofer Eq'ing

    Its been a while...

    I want to Get caught up on any recommendations on sub woofer eq'ing/feedback suppression/etc

    I am currently looking at two:
    ~ dsp1124p
    ~ fbq2496

    Any new/better choices available.

    musicianfriend.com has a (phone In)coupon for 20% off on select items.(exp. 10/31)
    hoping to utilize it
    My System
    ~ BenQ w5000 DLP 1080p Projector
    ~ Sony Bravia SXRD KDS-60A3000
    ~ Onkyo tx sr805
    ~ Sony PS.3
    ~ Xbox 360
    ~ Natalie P's Main L/R
    ~ Polk Csi A6 -Center
    ~ Polk RTi6 Rears
    ~ Behringer ep2500
    ~ Behringer Fbq 2496
  • NoDestiny
    Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 97

    #2
    No experience, but eD audio has treated me well in the past. I was looking at this model myself...


    My experience with Behringer products has been... well... bad. But I have not used those specifically and I hear good things about them.

    Comment

    • soundemon
      Senior Member
      • May 2009
      • 136

      #3
      Originally posted by NoDestiny
      No experience, but eD audio has treated me well in the past. I was looking at this model myself...


      My experience with Behringer products has been... well... bad. But I have not used those specifically and I hear good things about them.
      This Elemental designs EQ is pretty limited, having only 2 channels, and each of them limited in what frequencies they can effect.

      The behringer products I understand can be quite effective but difficult to learn and understand how to use.

      I use a rane PE17 5 channel analogue EQ, with REW. it can be a little frusterating too, but effective.
      DIY - once you start down that (dark) path, forever will it dominate your destiny!

      Comment

      • ThomasW
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Aug 2000
        • 10934

        #4
        The decision is this, do you want to be able to toggle between separate/different EQ settings for HT, music, etc.?

        If so get the DSP1124P

        If one stereo (2 channel) group of settings is all you need get the FBQ 2496. It's much easier to operate compared to the 1124. It has a wider choice of filters settings than the 1124P.

        IB subwoofer FAQ page


        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

        Comment

        • yousuredo2
          Senior Member
          • Jun 2006
          • 206

          #5
          Sorry guys, guess I should provide a little more details.

          It is going to be used in a dedicated home theater.
          (movies & games mostly, very little music, & no TV)
          Amp Is a Behringer Ep2500
          Sub woofer to be determined (tempest/maelstrom/???/???)

          easy to set up is a plus...I am not a audiophile, just getting my feet wet.
          sound quality isn't a huge concern yet, but I might want to tweak later down the road

          Is a mic, PC, calibration software, etc. needed for both/either ?
          My System
          ~ BenQ w5000 DLP 1080p Projector
          ~ Sony Bravia SXRD KDS-60A3000
          ~ Onkyo tx sr805
          ~ Sony PS.3
          ~ Xbox 360
          ~ Natalie P's Main L/R
          ~ Polk Csi A6 -Center
          ~ Polk RTi6 Rears
          ~ Behringer ep2500
          ~ Behringer Fbq 2496

          Comment

          • ThomasW
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 10934

            #6
            Originally posted by yousuredo2
            easy to set up is a plus...
            Get the FBQ2496, it's significantly more intuitive to operate compared to the 1124P

            Is a mic, PC, calibration software, etc. needed for both/either ?
            You're not going to calibrate anything. This is EQ

            Mandatory for EQing is having the ability to generate test tones (or sweeps) and the ability to measure how loud those tones/sweeps are. This is most easily done with the RS SPL meter (or another brand with a line out) feeding a PC running Room EQ Wizard freeware.

            More accurate testing is done using a mic with a mic pre-amp with phantom power.

            IB subwoofer FAQ page


            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

            Comment

            • yousuredo2
              Senior Member
              • Jun 2006
              • 206

              #7
              The FBQ2496 it is then...

              ThomasW:

              Do you have a recommendation for items needed, along with the FBQ2496.
              I am on a budget at the moment, but I can buy a piece at time if necessary.

              Is the behringer mic/Dayton pre-calibrated Mic at PE what I need ?
              What else, as far as getting the subwoofer to preform as needed in a HT ?

              thanks again
              chris
              My System
              ~ BenQ w5000 DLP 1080p Projector
              ~ Sony Bravia SXRD KDS-60A3000
              ~ Onkyo tx sr805
              ~ Sony PS.3
              ~ Xbox 360
              ~ Natalie P's Main L/R
              ~ Polk Csi A6 -Center
              ~ Polk RTi6 Rears
              ~ Behringer ep2500
              ~ Behringer Fbq 2496

              Comment

              • ---k---
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Nov 2005
                • 5202

                #8
                You need a Radio Shack SPL Meter. Everyone needs to have one of these. For a subwoofer EQing, you can use one of these as you mic. Skip the PE mice for now, you don't need to get that fancy.

                Then you need some cables. You can either use RCA cables w/ 1/4" MONO adapters or use a rca->xlr cable and xlr-xlr cable between the amp and the FBQ. I do the latter.
                - Ryan

                CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                Comment

                • BobEllis
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Dec 2005
                  • 1609

                  #9
                  Originally posted by yousuredo2
                  The FBQ2496 it is then...

                  ThomasW:

                  Do you have a recommendation for items needed, along with the FBQ2496.
                  I am on a budget at the moment, but I can buy a piece at time if necessary.

                  Is the behringer mic/Dayton pre-calibrated Mic at PE what I need ?
                  What else, as far as getting the subwoofer to preform as needed in a HT ?

                  thanks again
                  chris
                  If you can spring for it now, Herb is going to get another batch of the EMM-6 mikes and calibrate them (see the EMM-6 thread). There's a fair discrepancy between Herb's measured response and that provided with the mike. You'll want a properly calibrated mike if you are going to go much past basic sub setup (for which a RS SPL meter and generic calibration file are typically good enough.)

                  Comment

                  • penngray
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2007
                    • 341

                    #10
                    Originally posted by NoDestiny
                    No experience, but eD audio has treated me well in the past. I was looking at this model myself...


                    My experience with Behringer products has been... well... bad. But I have not used those specifically and I hear good things about them.

                    FWIW, I remember measurements some where showing the EQ.2 having high distortion when the gain was turned up.

                    I have never read about bad measurements with the Behringer products.

                    I have both and I like the EQ.2 for its simplicity, its SSF but its EXTREMELY limited outside of that. I set the gain to 50% too so Im not getting much distortion/

                    Comment

                    • yousuredo2
                      Senior Member
                      • Jun 2006
                      • 206

                      #11
                      FBQ 2496 is ordered...

                      Coupon Code: OCT20% (Valid for phone in orders only by calling 1-800-687-3022)
                      expires 10/31/09

                      with coupon code total was $119.99 shipped
                      Now to start saving for the other items...
                      still debating on the subwoofer
                      so far it's between 2 Tempest, or 1 Maelstrom, or ???
                      Last edited by yousuredo2; 27 October 2009, 16:51 Tuesday. Reason: added exp. date
                      My System
                      ~ BenQ w5000 DLP 1080p Projector
                      ~ Sony Bravia SXRD KDS-60A3000
                      ~ Onkyo tx sr805
                      ~ Sony PS.3
                      ~ Xbox 360
                      ~ Natalie P's Main L/R
                      ~ Polk Csi A6 -Center
                      ~ Polk RTi6 Rears
                      ~ Behringer ep2500
                      ~ Behringer Fbq 2496

                      Comment

                      • ---k---
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Nov 2005
                        • 5202

                        #12
                        Originally posted by yousuredo2
                        still debating on the subwoofer so far it's between 2 Tempest, or 1 Maelstrom, or ???
                        Those are probably your best options for output/$$. Those would be the ones at the top of my list, since I like a lot of boom with my movies.
                        - Ryan

                        CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                        CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                        CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                        Comment

                        • yousuredo2
                          Senior Member
                          • Jun 2006
                          • 206

                          #13
                          The Fbq2496 and cables to hook it up to the ep2500 arrived today...
                          I need a splitter (AVR only has one sub out rca)
                          I have not installed it yet though.

                          this thing is going to take a minute to understand.
                          once I do, things should be easy(easier)
                          My System
                          ~ BenQ w5000 DLP 1080p Projector
                          ~ Sony Bravia SXRD KDS-60A3000
                          ~ Onkyo tx sr805
                          ~ Sony PS.3
                          ~ Xbox 360
                          ~ Natalie P's Main L/R
                          ~ Polk Csi A6 -Center
                          ~ Polk RTi6 Rears
                          ~ Behringer ep2500
                          ~ Behringer Fbq 2496

                          Comment

                          • kevinp.
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2008
                            • 107

                            #14
                            can you use the FBQ2496 or DSP1124 to alter phase?

                            Comment

                            • ThomasW
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Aug 2000
                              • 10934

                              #15
                              No..

                              IB subwoofer FAQ page


                              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                              Comment

                              • kevinp.
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 2008
                                • 107

                                #16
                                thanks Thomas - is there a solution for those using pro amps and EQs? Does changing the distance in AVR settings change the phase?

                                Comment

                                • yousuredo2
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Jun 2006
                                  • 206

                                  #17
                                  Any Pointers ?
                                  I know that the final outcome will be room, sub, etc specific...
                                  ~ But a good place to start for sub eq'ing ?
                                  ~ Types of filters used ?
                                  ~ What tones/tunes are used to help set it up ?
                                  ~ Bandwidth adjustments
                                  any guidance at all is appreciated till i get a full understanding of how to use it.
                                  My System
                                  ~ BenQ w5000 DLP 1080p Projector
                                  ~ Sony Bravia SXRD KDS-60A3000
                                  ~ Onkyo tx sr805
                                  ~ Sony PS.3
                                  ~ Xbox 360
                                  ~ Natalie P's Main L/R
                                  ~ Polk Csi A6 -Center
                                  ~ Polk RTi6 Rears
                                  ~ Behringer ep2500
                                  ~ Behringer Fbq 2496

                                  Comment

                                  • kevinp.
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Apr 2008
                                    • 107

                                    #18
                                    hometheatershack.com has tons of useful threads on sub EQing. They have a free program called REW (Room equalization wizard) that is pretty user friendly. You need an SPL meter or mic/preamp, an outboard soundcard with line-in or RCA jacks, and a laptop or PC in the room.

                                    REW link

                                    Comment

                                    • FroDaddy
                                      Senior Member
                                      • Mar 2006
                                      • 274

                                      #19
                                      I use a Behringer 1124 and an Elemental Designs eQ.2 for the subwoofers. It was tricky to EQ but the tandem helped tune frequencies below 20Hz. There was a significant signal loss using both, but I was able to turn up my amps and the pre-out to compensate. I use a RadioShack SPL meter with REW to take measurements. Over time I've worked my house curve to suit my preferences. I'm considering bumping up the 20-30Hz mark in the future, but this is the REW housecurve specs I'm using right now.:

                                      21 16.5
                                      24 11
                                      30 1.25
                                      40 -4.5
                                      50 -9.25
                                      90 -10
                                      200 +1

                                      I adjusted the house curve to roughly fit my natural room response, and then I would adjust the curve so that I could fine tune areas with tighter tolerances. Here was the final EQ graph after integrating the eQ.2 into my system:



                                      The second channel of the 1124 is the EQ for my ButtKickers. As a guide I had to reference familiar movie soundtracks and cross reference the scenes to waterfall charts. Then I created a house curve then made parameter changes to try and visualize what I felt needed to be adjusted. After a lot of trial and error I'm very glad that I did it.

                                      I manually input EQ settings in the 1124 and don't find that difficult.

                                      Good luck!

                                      Comment

                                      • kevinp.
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Apr 2008
                                        • 107

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by FroDaddy
                                        I use a Behringer 1124 and an Elemental Designs eQ.2 for the subwoofers. It was tricky to EQ but the tandem helped tune frequencies below 20Hz. There was a significant signal loss using both, but I was able to turn up my amps and the pre-out to compensate. I use a RadioShack SPL meter with REW to take measurements. Over time I've worked my house curve to suit my preferences. I'm considering bumping up the 20-30Hz mark in the future, but this is the REW housecurve specs I'm using right now.:

                                        21 16.5
                                        24 11
                                        30 1.25
                                        40 -4.5
                                        50 -9.25
                                        90 -10
                                        200 +1

                                        I adjusted the house curve to roughly fit my natural room response, and then I would adjust the curve so that I could fine tune areas with tighter tolerances. Here was the final EQ graph after integrating the eQ.2 into my system:



                                        The second channel of the 1124 is the EQ for my ButtKickers. As a guide I had to reference familiar movie soundtracks and cross reference the scenes to waterfall charts. Then I created a house curve then made parameter changes to try and visualize what I felt needed to be adjusted. After a lot of trial and error I'm very glad that I did it.

                                        I manually input EQ settings in the 1124 and don't find that difficult.

                                        Good luck!
                                        do you mean to say you're using 16.5db of gain at 21hz??

                                        Comment

                                        • FroDaddy
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Mar 2006
                                          • 274

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by kevinp.
                                          do you mean to say you're using 16.5db of gain at 21hz??
                                          No... Hopefully the OP doesn't mind going in this tangent for a bit. The graphs I'm posting vary with the dB reading since I had to use different base dB for two reasons: I used a laptop when using the eQ.2, and increasing the amp gain and sub out was needed. So when comparing my graphs it has to be done relative to the house curve line.

                                          Here was the EQ graph with only the 1124, no eQ.2 (note that smoothing is on):



                                          Then I put the eQ.2 in place I had line level signal loss even in "bypass" mode. After some adjusting, I had the cleanest signal by turning up the subwoofer amp and increasing the receiver's subwoofer out. So the next graph is a measurement using the same 1124 EQ filters, but with the extra signal gain:



                                          The room mode and amp/receiver gain played a big role in the 16hz spike. A point to note here is that the eQ.2's subsonic filter controls the woofers so well that it allowed me to turn up the amp and receiver FAR past the point of normal safety. So there is a boost/cut around 16Hz and I believe the effective electronic boost is +4.5dB at 14-15hz. Two other electronic boosts are done with 1124 and they are a +2dB at 21Hz and a +3dB notch boost at 55Hz. Everything else is a cut, and the upper end is cut so dramatically to blend in as seamless as I could get with the L/C/R mains crossed over at 60Hz. (Reference the first graph I posted here for the final EQ.)

                                          So in summary the end result with the eQ.2 was +10dB at 21Hz and +16dB at 16Hz. To get there the eQ.2's subsonic filter allowed me to unlock more excursion by adding more power, gain, and electronic boost. It was tricky to EQ since the eQ.2's dials aren't accurate, but I can't recall a better "bang for my buck" mod I've ever purchased. I'm glad a friend of mine talked me into trying it out!

                                          Sorry to the OP if I've taken this thread in the wrong direction ops:

                                          Comment

                                          • yousuredo2
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Jun 2006
                                            • 206

                                            #22
                                            alright fellas if I am going to need a pc that can run rew what do i need to look for in laptop as far as sound card mic compatibility

                                            option #2,
                                            i could build a new pc and just use my old pc with new sound card to run rew,
                                            what do yall recommend?
                                            budget $300/$450
                                            would a net book work?
                                            My System
                                            ~ BenQ w5000 DLP 1080p Projector
                                            ~ Sony Bravia SXRD KDS-60A3000
                                            ~ Onkyo tx sr805
                                            ~ Sony PS.3
                                            ~ Xbox 360
                                            ~ Natalie P's Main L/R
                                            ~ Polk Csi A6 -Center
                                            ~ Polk RTi6 Rears
                                            ~ Behringer ep2500
                                            ~ Behringer Fbq 2496

                                            Comment

                                            • kevinp.
                                              Senior Member
                                              • Apr 2008
                                              • 107

                                              #23
                                              anything will work, you need a USB port for an external sound card. The standard mic in is not good enough, you need a line in input. I'm using the $30 Behringer UCA202 and it works just fine. A $40 Rat Shack meter and you're all set, or you can move up to calibrated mic (and pre-amp) for more accuracy.

                                              Comment

                                              • ---k---
                                                Ultra Senior Member
                                                • Nov 2005
                                                • 5202

                                                #24
                                                You can start without a PC and do it the old fashion way using a CD w/ test tones, a piece of paper, and Excel. It is a very worthwhile process to do once, so you can hear what you're seeing. But a computer greatly speeds up the process.

                                                Like Kevin said, with laptops you often need an external USB soundcard. I used to use a $40 one from Creative. Most desktop soundcards work fine. The laptop doesn't need much power to run; it is a fairly simple program.
                                                - Ryan

                                                CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                Comment

                                                • FroDaddy
                                                  Senior Member
                                                  • Mar 2006
                                                  • 274

                                                  #25
                                                  Wow do it manually? It takes me long enough to do it with a computer!

                                                  I grabbed an old Soundblaster Live card and used it. When I say old I mean the first SB Live they made Only once have I used a laptop; every other time I unplugged my PC and set it up in the room. The laptop had a mic in and it was fine, although I wouldn't use one to start out with. I already had measurements from a trusted sound card so I knew what to look for.

                                                  I wouldn't buy a laptop nor PC specifically to EQ unless you're looking for an excuse to get a new one!

                                                  Comment

                                                  • ---k---
                                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                                    • Nov 2005
                                                    • 5202

                                                    #26
                                                    I agree, I wouldn't buy a computer for this - unless you're buying a $50 one from craigslist or you have another legit reason for buying a computer.

                                                    It really doesn't take that long to do manually, depending on how many tones you're using. Probably 10 minutes. I used the Riva Test CD w/ the tones already corrected for the RS meter. Like I said, something good to do only once.
                                                    - Ryan

                                                    CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                    CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                    CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                    Comment

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