A New Adventure

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  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15259

    Slow work takes time...

    But it eventually gets done! sometimes...

    This is a test setup with just a 1 cu ft sealed enclosure on the woofer, no attempt to address sub 100Hz yet. Measured in room with a 200ms window; 1/24 octave smoothing- no trying to make things pretty and smooth with 1/3 octave smoothing.




    For those that are curious, with and without the notch filter, showing distortion products. With this tweeter, you could likely leave it off without issues...


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    With ultrasonic notch filter
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    Polar response, 0 - 30 degrees, 10 degree increments- this would constitute the typical direct sound listening axis.

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    Polar response, 0 - 70 degrees, this is the forward 140 degree arc. These sound very good walking off to the side compared with most speakers.

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    Last edited by JonMarsh; 30 July 2019, 16:42 Tuesday.
    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

    Comment

    • JonMarsh
      Mad Max Moderator
      • Aug 2000
      • 15259

      A look at the individual drivers.

      And how do the drivers look individually with their crossovers?


      MW19P-8
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      DA25-TX002
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      You can certainly say it's a quirky build for the DA25, but with it's flat plate, stiff diaphragm and reasonably high performance motors, it's one of the best $300 tweeters I've ever measured of late... and the best one that doesn't cost $300.
      the AudioWorx
      Natalie P
      M8ta
      Modula Neo DCC
      Modula MT XE
      Modula Xtreme
      Isiris
      Wavecor Ardent

      SMJ
      Minerva Monitor
      Calliope
      Ardent D

      In Development...
      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
      Obi-Wan
      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
      Modula PWB
      Calliope CC Supreme
      Natalie P Ultra
      Natalie P Supreme
      Janus BP1 Sub


      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

      Comment

      • 1Michael
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2006
        • 293

        I am looking forward to these projects!
        Michael
        Chesapeake Va.

        Comment

        • Steve Manning
          Moderator
          • Dec 2006
          • 1879

          Originally posted by 1Michael
          I am looking forward to these projects!
          And there being built just around the corner from you.
          Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



          WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

          Comment

          • ergo
            Senior Member
            • Mar 2005
            • 675

            Graphs look very promising indeed and that DA25 is a great find. Very good to see this project progressing steadily. Steve you have to keep Jon on a short leash though as it seems he's coming up with more new and old/new projects to last him for years to come

            Seems I've dropped off a wagon for a bit though. Are these latest graps with DA25+ waveguide or a regular baffle mounting?

            Also I assume the drive level is your usual 2.83V and measurement at 1m (just to but THD plots in context).

            Comment

            • Steve Manning
              Moderator
              • Dec 2006
              • 1879

              Originally posted by ergo
              Graphs look very promising indeed and that DA25 is a great find. Very good to see this project progressing steadily. Steve you have to keep Jon on a short leash though as it seems he's coming up with more new and old/new projects to last him for years to come

              Seems I've dropped off a wagon for a bit though. Are these latest graps with DA25+ waveguide or a regular baffle mounting?

              Also I assume the drive level is your usual 2.83V and measurement at 1m (just to but THD plots in context).
              Ergo, the problem with putting Jon on a leash is that he just keeps running in circles until you get tied in a knot and once you fall over he just drags you along for the ride anyway.
              Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



              WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

              Comment

              • Steve Manning
                Moderator
                • Dec 2006
                • 1879

                Just to show Jon's not having all the fun of late and an idea for those interested in sprucing things up a bit. Here is a project just shipped out to a fellow group member who wanted to kick things up a notch.

                The process started with selecting a nice piece of quartersawn Sapele.

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                A little water showing what it will look like after finish is applied.

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                Machining in progress ....

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                Finished parts.

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                Baffles have hidden magnets to work with existing grills.

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                Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15259

                  Originally posted by ergo
                  Graphs look very promising indeed and that DA25 is a great find. Very good to see this project progressing steadily. Steve you have to keep Jon on a short leash though as it seems he's coming up with more new and old/new projects to last him for years to come

                  Seems I've dropped off a wagon for a bit though. Are these latest graps with DA25+ waveguide or a regular baffle mounting?

                  Also I assume the drive level is your usual 2.83V and measurement at 1m (just to but THD plots in context).

                  Hey Ergo!! Hope you're having a good summer!

                  No waveguide involved here- this is the "basic" MT design as a proof of concept for the new cabinet construction technique Steve has been woking on. Intended as a "demonstrator" of sorts, but also a decent basic design with some new drivers (for me).

                  Driver levels are the typical 2.83 VRMS- of course, the tweeter is padded down to match the woofer sensitivity. But it looks about the same running direct by itself.






                  I'm guessing that due to the relatively flat dome and the flat mounting plate, this accounts for the very consistent behavior on and off axis with just a steady drop off in level off axis with increasing frequency. I've measured a LOT of tweeters this summer and I just haven't been finding this level of consistency. If the motor wasn't good and clean, and capable of handling some power, that wouldn't be worth warm spit, but apparently the part was designed for high power handling and does quite well.

                  Now, I have done some weird things.. (not with the ones on this measurement setup above) - taken 4 apart, beefed up the kapton insulation and glued two of the faceplates together to make a stronger faceplate, leaving me with a couple of extra motor assemblies for a $100 each tweeter- net total cost.

                  Anyway, with the crossover design as it is, I can adjust the voicing just by changing the input resistor to the HF network. I think I'm close to a final value, checking and listening for hours (while I'm working!) but I've got a new DSP board coming in for the DAC so I may give it some time on that, too, before making my final suggestion to Steve. In the end, he'll listen and tweak too, I think.

                  Current listening setup is a Tascam transport driving the Denafrips Terminator DAC (haven't had time to get the music server up and running or my I2S setup going), feeding a Hestia Preamp into a Hyperion amplifier- it's a condo system, all my big guns are in storage in Idaho. Got to bench and report on them soon, too, but very good sound for the money. But I'm sure it's a leap of faith for people to buy stuff from Singapore sight unheard.
                  Last edited by theSven; 04 May 2023, 13:08 Thursday. Reason: Update htguide url
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • ergo
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2005
                    • 675

                    Ok, based on off axis plots I was guessing this is a tweeter on it's own, but wanted to verify.

                    I've been building a bit bigger things than speakers over summer - though some guys might have subwoofer about the same size as the "tiny house" style summer cottage we are doing up. It's about 16m2 or 180 square feet total inside , but now has toilet, shower, kitchen and all other essentials.

                    The OLA project is also still ongoing. We've just agreed another listening and Xover tuning session for this Saturday with my friend, so after that I should have both the latest measurements and impressions to share in the OLA thread. Don't wanna steal Steve's thread too much

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15259

                      Originally posted by ergo

                      I've been building a bit bigger things than speakers over summer - though some guys might have subwoofer about the same size as the "tiny house" style summer cottage we are doing up. It's about 16m2 or 180 square feet total inside , but now has toilet, shower, kitchen and all other essentials.

                      The OLA project is also still ongoing. We've just agreed another listening and Xover tuning session for this Saturday with my friend, so after that I should have both the latest measurements and impressions to share in the OLA thread. Don't wanna steal Steve's thread too much
                      Now THAT's the way to spend your summer! But it's great you're still moving forward on the OLA project and not completely neglecting audio this summer- though I couldn't fault you if you did with a project like your summer cottage! You're doing some interesting work there, and it inspired me to get a two pairs of the BlieSMa tweeters, though I had some problems with that first set which Solen put right.

                      And it's August already... just to show show you how I think the summer has sped by, when I was falling asleep last night I was thinking I would have a long weekend because of Labor Day on Monday, but that's not until the first Monday in September! But I do feel as though my summer has been taken away from me by the 7 day weeks since the end of April. That is ending this weekend; but I'm putting Liubov on a plane to visit her older daughter's family in Seattle; I'm not on that plane because until very recently it was expected I would be working this weekend, too....


                      So maybe some speaker camp instead! There's lots to do, and a box of crossover parts on the way to arrive today...
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
                      Modula Neo DCC
                      Modula MT XE
                      Modula Xtreme
                      Isiris
                      Wavecor Ardent

                      SMJ
                      Minerva Monitor
                      Calliope
                      Ardent D

                      In Development...
                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                      Obi-Wan
                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                      Modula PWB
                      Calliope CC Supreme
                      Natalie P Ultra
                      Natalie P Supreme
                      Janus BP1 Sub


                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • morbo
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2004
                        • 152

                        This thread has finally coaxed me out of lurking after many long years absence

                        I am currently in the planning phase for a 3 way floorstander to replace my stalwart Modula MT's with the seas metal dome tweeter. These have served me well and are a great reference speaker; but over time and with more experience, I have come to realize I'd really like to get the extra midrange detail and 'sweetness' that I detect in drivers like the ZA14 and even the old CSSWr125. And that, combined with a desire for better amplification, has spawned a new project! 3-way active, power and DSP from a Hypex nCore fa123 plate amp. Current plan is to use the Vifa ne149 as the midrange, and Peerless SLS woofers (either 2x8" or 1x12") for the bass.

                        What brings me to this thread is the tweeter: I have been evaluating candidates, crossing them actively to a test box with CSS FR125 drivers standing in for the eventual mid. Doing fairly rough measurements and just playing around with PEQ/slopes, measurement and listening all done in the nearfield. I have tried several SB tweeters, scanspeak discovery ring radiator, the Hivi Rt1.3we, css ld22c, even the Linaeum dipole. But the one that has stood out is this peerless 25mm corundum dome. I hadn't planned on using it in this project, as a 3 way with 5" mid doesn't really need the power handling or extension on the bottom end. But I hooked it up just to test, and I'll be damned if it doesn't just sound best out of them all! the others have their strengths and the 1.3WE in particular has a lovely natural presentation (for lack of a better descriptor)... but I can't deny that the Peerless just seems to be finding information in the recording that the other's aren't; mostly noticeable in room ambiance, subtle inhalations of breath, or on very 'busy' electronic music. I'm frankly quite surprised by this, was not really expecting this to be a standout beyond its robustness/versatility.

                        And here I see Jon's (whose work has been MOST formative to my DIY education) evaluation and better measurements, and am feeling vindicated. Though still not sure I'll end up using it in this particular design.

                        And the prospect of a waveguide for it, whether that will be a DIY design we can copy with CNC/3d printing, or a product we can order, is enticing.. do I understand right this may be in the offing?

                        Comment

                        • Steve Manning
                          Moderator
                          • Dec 2006
                          • 1879

                          Originally posted by morbo
                          This thread has finally coaxed me out of lurking after many long years absence

                          I am currently in the planning phase for a 3 way floorstander to replace my stalwart Modula MT's with the seas metal dome tweeter. These have served me well and are a great reference speaker; but over time and with more experience, I have come to realize I'd really like to get the extra midrange detail and 'sweetness' that I detect in drivers like the ZA14 and even the old CSSWr125. And that, combined with a desire for better amplification, has spawned a new project! 3-way active, power and DSP from a Hypex nCore fa123 plate amp. Current plan is to use the Vifa ne149 as the midrange, and Peerless SLS woofers (either 2x8" or 1x12") for the bass.

                          What brings me to this thread is the tweeter: I have been evaluating candidates, crossing them actively to a test box with CSS FR125 drivers standing in for the eventual mid. Doing fairly rough measurements and just playing around with PEQ/slopes, measurement and listening all done in the nearfield. I have tried several SB tweeters, scanspeak discovery ring radiator, the Hivi Rt1.3we, css ld22c, even the Linaeum dipole. But the one that has stood out is this peerless 25mm corundum dome. I hadn't planned on using it in this project, as a 3 way with 5" mid doesn't really need the power handling or extension on the bottom end. But I hooked it up just to test, and I'll be damned if it doesn't just sound best out of them all! the others have their strengths and the 1.3WE in particular has a lovely natural presentation (for lack of a better descriptor)... but I can't deny that the Peerless just seems to be finding information in the recording that the other's aren't; mostly noticeable in room ambiance, subtle inhalations of breath, or on very 'busy' electronic music. I'm frankly quite surprised by this, was not really expecting this to be a standout beyond its robustness/versatility.

                          And here I see Jon's (whose work has been MOST formative to my DIY education) evaluation and better measurements, and am feeling vindicated. Though still not sure I'll end up using it in this particular design.

                          And the prospect of a waveguide for it, whether that will be a DIY design we can copy with CNC/3d printing, or a product we can order, is enticing.. do I understand right this may be in the offing?
                          Hi Morbo,

                          As to the mechanical side of things, our intent, assuming we can determine a profile suitable for this tweeter, or others, is to provide waveguides that are available to purchase. It could be stand alone or machined into a baffle directly .... though most of our efforts are working with stand alone waveguides for testing at this point. Rather than having the typical plastic versions that one sees these days, we're looking at different hardwoods, lbl, etc ...... something more pleasing to the eye than the standard fare.

                          Jon can speak more to the acoustic side of things, since he is the master in that department.
                          Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                          WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                          Comment

                          • JonMarsh
                            Mad Max Moderator
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 15259

                            Originally posted by morbo
                            This thread has finally coaxed me out of lurking after many long years absence

                            I am currently in the planning phase for a 3 way floorstander to replace my stalwart Modula MT's with the seas metal dome tweeter. These have served me well and are a great reference speaker; but over time and with more experience, I have come to realize I'd really like to get the extra midrange detail and 'sweetness' that I detect in drivers like the ZA14 and even the old CSSWr125. And that, combined with a desire for better amplification, has spawned a new project! 3-way active, power and DSP from a Hypex nCore fa123 plate amp. Current plan is to use the Vifa ne149 as the midrange, and Peerless SLS woofers (either 2x8" or 1x12") for the bass.

                            What brings me to this thread is the tweeter: I have been evaluating candidates, crossing them actively to a test box with CSS FR125 drivers standing in for the eventual mid. Doing fairly rough measurements and just playing around with PEQ/slopes, measurement and listening all done in the nearfield. I have tried several SB tweeters, scanspeak discovery ring radiator, the Hivi Rt1.3we, css ld22c, even the Linaeum dipole. But the one that has stood out is this peerless 25mm corundum dome. I hadn't planned on using it in this project, as a 3 way with 5" mid doesn't really need the power handling or extension on the bottom end. But I hooked it up just to test, and I'll be damned if it doesn't just sound best out of them all! the others have their strengths and the 1.3WE in particular has a lovely natural presentation (for lack of a better descriptor)... but I can't deny that the Peerless just seems to be finding information in the recording that the other's aren't; mostly noticeable in room ambiance, subtle inhalations of breath, or on very 'busy' electronic music. I'm frankly quite surprised by this, was not really expecting this to be a standout beyond its robustness/versatility.

                            And here I see Jon's (whose work has been MOST formative to my DIY education) evaluation and better measurements, and am feeling vindicated. Though still not sure I'll end up using it in this particular design.

                            And the prospect of a waveguide for it, whether that will be a DIY design we can copy with CNC/3d printing, or a product we can order, is enticing.. do I understand right this may be in the offing?
                            I am not surprised at all that you notice this. I went through both a measurements and listening evaluation of quite a few tweeters in the $200-$400 range and keep coming back to the DA25, with all it's quirks- sonically, it's very good, and measures quite well, too, as you can see. I can speculate as to why- I suspect the unusual rear chamber design, flattish dome, and the absolutely flat front panel with minimal diffraction effects all play their roles.

                            OTOH, getting it to mate well with a waveguide is not at all easy. This is always the case, in my experience with hard domes, one exception being the original RS28a tweeter; it's phase shield and flat faceplate construction and just where they put the boundaries of the protective screen work very well as regards measured response on and off axis.

                            The problem with the DA25 seems to be reflections with the dome and throat interface that make that quite tricky. If you PM me, I can email you some of the measurement results with different waveguide experiments. The last one was close, and I have some further ideas for new profiles, but for now that has been set aside- especially considering the performance we get in a conventional direct radiator mode- look at the distortion plot above, the DA25 is not holding that MT back in any sense.

                            In fact, I just recalled this week conversations I've had with Wkanna in the past about a NatP successor, a NatP MkII if you will, and this MT is clearly a sound basis for that, as the current MT test demo has remarkably good vertical integration considering the CTC distance is 13". Plenty for an MTM. I've settled on the preferred HF crossover input resistor and can easily work out a dual 8 ohm version MTM soon.

                            Of course, other things could be interesting, like the 6" Satori as a midrange and dual WO24's on the bottom end, presuming one wants a high sensitivity system and can handle the size, or a high cut off frequency if you put two of those in a 2 cu ft enclosure sealed and go with subs below 50Hz.

                            You should be able to get good results with the NE149W; I've measured a few of the NE series in the past, but never had time to do anything with them... I suspect they're in storage in Idaho right now, though they could still be in Livermore!

                            But if you haven't already bought your NE149W's, take a close look at the similar Satori parts. A bit newer designs by basically the same people. Seem to be better behaved cones, less issues to deal with.

                            OTOH, I'm looking at the EighteenSound 6ND430 as my next midrange driver candidate (for non Accuton type systems ) in addition to the Satori 6's I've got.

                            Let's face it, the Accuton C168 is in a different sensitivity and price class. But if you're working with Accuton cell drivers, and crossovers, like a Duelund that only really work well with all drivers having the acoustic origin in the same plane, you have limited choices.

                            It's still summer time, a good time for stepping outside the normal development approaches!

                            BTW, I do like the new Hypex plate amps, though I haven't had a chance to check them out. I have one of the Accuton DSP board sets, and would be more interested in that if I wasn't such a DAC tweak head (TotalDAC and Denafrips Terminator- new DSP board for the latter should hit the dock on the 5th!)

                            Retro Rulz!
                            the AudioWorx
                            Natalie P
                            M8ta
                            Modula Neo DCC
                            Modula MT XE
                            Modula Xtreme
                            Isiris
                            Wavecor Ardent

                            SMJ
                            Minerva Monitor
                            Calliope
                            Ardent D

                            In Development...
                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                            Obi-Wan
                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                            Modula PWB
                            Calliope CC Supreme
                            Natalie P Ultra
                            Natalie P Supreme
                            Janus BP1 Sub


                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                            Comment

                            • Steve Manning
                              Moderator
                              • Dec 2006
                              • 1879

                              Figured I'd show a few pictures of the last area of upgrades to the shop, where I do any finish application. I replaced the hanging tarp setup with a track system and some heavy duty clear curtains. For the most part I can leave everything in place, close the curtains and get to work.

                              Here are some pictures of the cabinet parts getting a coat of primer ....

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                              Of course it became apparent that I now need build a drying rack for parts .... it never ends.
                              Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                              WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                              Comment

                              • Scottg
                                Senior Member
                                • Nov 2006
                                • 335

                                -might be better for the finishes to "hang" parts in a *cabinet for drying (..assuming they can be hung like the one in that pic.).


                                *perhaps with temp. and humidity control (..along with dust of course).

                                Comment

                                • Steve Manning
                                  Moderator
                                  • Dec 2006
                                  • 1879

                                  Originally posted by Scottg
                                  -might be better for the finishes to "hang" parts in a *cabinet for drying (..assuming they can be hung like the one in that pic.).


                                  *perhaps with temp. and humidity control (..along with dust of course).

                                  Completely agree with you Scott ...... unfortunately controlling the temp and humidity are not in the budget at the moment. I'd like to do a ductless mini split, but I would really need to replace my garage doors as well to make it worth while.

                                  I've thought about hanging the parts, though I only need to be concerned with the outside edge of the ribs, it's the only parts visible when the cabinet is put together. As such sitting them like I am won't mess with the "critical" areas of the finish. I am however priming the entire piece to make sure it's sealed to the environment.
                                  Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                  WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                  Comment

                                  • Bear
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Dec 2008
                                    • 1038

                                    You can find a plug-in dehumidifier that should work well in either a large cabinet or small shed. Use low expansion foam to seal any openings/seams, and then put a gasket on the doors. It won't be high volume, but all-in, it should be cheaper than a new garage door.
                                    Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                    Comment

                                    • Steve Manning
                                      Moderator
                                      • Dec 2006
                                      • 1879

                                      In the past I've gone this route as well. Typically when I'm done spraying I let parts sit in the house for about a week to let things setup better. Fortunately my wife is very understanding. :W

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                                      Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                      WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                      Comment

                                      • CADman_ks
                                        Senior Member
                                        • Jan 2012
                                        • 497

                                        Originally posted by Steve Manning
                                        Figured I'd show a few pictures of the last area of upgrades to the shop, where I do any finish application. I replaced the hanging tarp setup with a track system and some heavy duty clear curtains. For the most part I can leave everything in place, close the curtains and get to work.

                                        Here are some pictures of the cabinet parts getting a coat of primer ....



                                        Of course it became apparent that I now need build a drying rack for parts .... it never ends.
                                        This is a VERY cool way of doing this. I made myself one of these once as well to spray lacquer. I was able to drop my garage door, and then I had a HUGE attic fan that pulled air from the top of my shop down, and out the door. Really worked pretty well.

                                        Here's a link to the setup I used:

                                        I'm getting ready to start building two sets of Ochocinco's. I'm going to be building my Ocho's different than the original design. Because of that, I thought that I would try and do something that I've never really done in the past, document what I'm doing, and try and be diligent about it. Hopefully this information is
                                        Last edited by theSven; 04 May 2023, 13:11 Thursday. Reason: Update htguide url
                                        CADman_ks
                                        - Stentorian build...
                                        - Ochocinco build...
                                        - BT speaker / sub build...

                                        Comment

                                        • morbo
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Nov 2004
                                          • 152

                                          Originally posted by Steve Manning
                                          Hi Morbo,

                                          As to the mechanical side of things, our intent, assuming we can determine a profile suitable for this tweeter, or others, is to provide waveguides that are available to purchase. It could be stand alone or machined into a baffle directly .... though most of our efforts are working with stand alone waveguides for testing at this point. Rather than having the typical plastic versions that one sees these days, we're looking at different hardwoods, lbl, etc ...... something more pleasing to the eye than the standard fare.

                                          Jon can speak more to the acoustic side of things, since he is the master in that department.
                                          Thanks Steve, I will certainly be awaiting your waveguides with bated breath! I think this tweeter in a waveguide would open up all sorts of interesting possibilities..

                                          Comment

                                          • morbo
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2004
                                            • 152

                                            Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                            I am not surprised at all that you notice this. I went through both a measurements and listening evaluation of quite a few tweeters in the $200-$400 range and keep coming back to the DA25, with all it's quirks- sonically, it's very good, and measures quite well, too, as you can see. I can speculate as to why- I suspect the unusual rear chamber design, flattish dome, and the absolutely flat front panel with minimal diffraction effects all play their roles.
                                            I'm sure you're right, and as I say I was very happy to see your results; I'm just not experienced enough with either high end commercial offerings or diy to fully trust my ears. The value proposition is really something else; at the price they're quite special.

                                            Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                            ... If you PM me, I can email you some of the measurement results with different waveguide experiments.
                                            Will do, thanks!

                                            Originally posted by JonMarsh

                                            You should be able to get good results with the NE149W; I've measured a few of the NE series in the past, but never had time to do anything with them... I suspect they're in storage in Idaho right now, though they could still be in Livermore!

                                            But if you haven't already bought your NE149W's, take a close look at the similar Satori parts. A bit newer designs by basically the same people. Seem to be better behaved cones, less issues to deal with.
                                            I do already have the ne149 - I spent a lot of time considering this and I wanted something that on paper would be a clear step up from the wr125, and if possible at least as good through the midband as the zaph's za14 which I also have experience with; those drivers really impressed me in the mids! I did consider the smaller satori midwoofers as well, but here the cost was close to 2x higher as the ne149 was on sale, and I couldn't justify the extra cost. Your recommendation has me second guessing that a little, but I really think I need to start using drivers faster than I buy them at this point, it's getting a little out of hand I'm hoping the NE149 will live up to its reputation from the statements series; and that any additional XO complexity it requires will be fairly easy to deal with in DSP.

                                            Originally posted by JonMarsh

                                            BTW, I do like the new Hypex plate amps, though I haven't had a chance to check them out. I have one of the Accuton DSP board sets, and would be more interested in that if I wasn't such a DAC tweak head (TotalDAC and Denafrips Terminator- new DSP board for the latter should hit the dock on the 5th!)
                                            I'm glad you approve! I did have a little buyers remorse briefly when I found out they wouldn't handle FIR crossovers, which I had been interested in trying. But they still seem like the best implementation of active XO and amplification I can find without ballooning the complexity or cost.. I want these to be standalone, plug and play speakers (once finalized).

                                            As far as DAC tweaking; in all honesty I'm not sure my current setup is resolving enough for me to notice the differences. But definitely something I will look into, I've been eyeing the dac reviews and leaderboard over at audiosciencereview (https://www.audiosciencereview.com/f...nts-png.30050/) and the best performing one I have here is the Topping d30; which sounds great but I'm not sure that different from the DACs in my Nad receiver. Definitely something to explore further down the line, I'll be sure to pick your brain when the time comes.

                                            Comment

                                            • Steve Manning
                                              Moderator
                                              • Dec 2006
                                              • 1879

                                              A bit of an update ...... I found some folding racks for the spray area that has allowed me to triple my thru put. All the parts are sprayed and some assembly is underway.

                                              Speaker parts curing in the a/c ....

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                                              First stand under goes assembly.

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                                              Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                              WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                              Comment

                                              • ergo
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Mar 2005
                                                • 675

                                                Very nice looking stuff. From pictures the surface finish looks fully "production quality" and I'm sure it is too. Lucky customers who gets these

                                                Comment

                                                • Evil Twin
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • Nov 2004
                                                  • 1531

                                                  Originally posted by Steve Manning
                                                  A bit of an update ...... I found some folding racks for the spray area that has allowed me to triple my thru put. All the parts are sprayed and some assembly is underway.

                                                  Speaker parts curing in the a/c ....

                                                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]29685[/ATTACH]

                                                  First stand under goes assembly.

                                                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]29686[/ATTACH]

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                                                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]29688[/ATTACH]

                                                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]29689[/ATTACH]
                                                  Interesting... most interesting!

                                                  Those stands would look right at home in the Storm Trooper's commandant's suite...
                                                  DFAL
                                                  Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                  A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Horio
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Sep 2014
                                                    • 158

                                                    Steve! I've been MIA from the boards for the past few months, and in the meantime you've been busy!

                                                    First of all, no more drooling over my festool toys. I'm the one doing the drooling over your Sawstop and CNCRouterParts router..

                                                    I'll definitely be following the development of your business closely, and will certainly be buying/commissioning some things too!

                                                    -Greg

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Steve Manning
                                                      Moderator
                                                      • Dec 2006
                                                      • 1879

                                                      Originally posted by Horio
                                                      Steve! I've been MIA from the boards for the past few months, and in the meantime you've been busy!

                                                      First of all, no more drooling over my festool toys. I'm the one doing the drooling over your Sawstop and CNCRouterParts router..

                                                      I'll definitely be following the development of your business closely, and will certainly be buying/commissioning some things too!

                                                      -Greg
                                                      Greg, I'm always drooling over Festool toys. Though I am enjoying the new upgrades.

                                                      Just let me know what I can help you with. By the way, any progress on those Ardents?

                                                      Steve
                                                      Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                      WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Horio
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Sep 2014
                                                        • 158

                                                        Progress is slow with the Ardents thanks to being slammed at work. Hoping to have some time to work on the speakers during the holidays. Basically ready to glue your excellent baffles to the cabinet rears, and the laminate the 1/8 inch hardboard all around.

                                                        I may have something you could help with using your new fancy CNC. I'll send you a PM to see what you think.

                                                        Greg

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Evil Twin
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Nov 2004
                                                          • 1531

                                                          I understand full well what the “being slammed at work” means, having had this difficultly nearly all year.

                                                          And to think I thought it might be passing, but new additional tasks have appeared with deadlines of a couple of months...

                                                          May the Force be with you...
                                                          DFAL
                                                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Steve Manning
                                                            Moderator
                                                            • Dec 2006
                                                            • 1879

                                                            Since it's been a while due to working on a few other projects, I figured it was time for an update.

                                                            With all the parts finished I installed some dampening material to most of the ribs.

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                                                            I also had spent a fair bit of time finding a good solution for sealing the ribs and spacers. This material ended up under the third times a charm category since I was not happy with my first two choices.

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                                                            Installing the xovers that Jon sent out and working on final assembly.

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                                                            After much searching and not wanting to pay the crazy prices, I opted to make the feet for between the cabinets and stands since they need to be a specific height.

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                                                            Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                            WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Steve Manning
                                                              Moderator
                                                              • Dec 2006
                                                              • 1879

                                                              Feet finished and in place ....

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                                                              A few shots of the finished speakers playing away.

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                                                              Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                              WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                              Comment

                                                              • carlthess40
                                                                Junior Member
                                                                • Jun 2019
                                                                • 9

                                                                How’s the sound ?


                                                                Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Evil Twin
                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                  • Nov 2004
                                                                  • 1531

                                                                  Originally posted by Steve Manning
                                                                  Feet finished and in place ....

                                                                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]29739[/ATTACH]

                                                                  A few shots of the finished speakers playing away.



                                                                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]29740[/ATTACH]

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                                                                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]29742[/ATTACH]

                                                                  [ATTACH=CONFIG]29743[/ATTACH]
                                                                  Very impressive- a strong combination of technology and craftsmanship.
                                                                  DFAL
                                                                  Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                  A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Bear
                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                    • Dec 2008
                                                                    • 1038

                                                                    Looks great! I would have expected the ribs protruding beyond the face plane of the baffle would have created diffraction issues. I'll acknowledge immediately that you guys know what you were doing so did you not think that it would happen, or was it a risk that didn't materialize, or somewhere in between?
                                                                    Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • Steve Manning
                                                                      Moderator
                                                                      • Dec 2006
                                                                      • 1879

                                                                      Many thanks Master ET .... I aim to please.

                                                                      As to the sound .... only a short listening session yesterday. With them pretty much just plopped in the middle of the room and ~3' from my chair a fair assessment will come once they are located where they need to be. In other words I didn't have the energy to lug all these heavy cabinets around at the end of the day. :W

                                                                      Initial impressions though, is that Jon has done his usual magic with the design choices. Very clean and detailed, as Jon has stated this tweeter punches way out of it's price range.

                                                                      Diffraction issues were considered ..... edges are rounded over as well as foam strips are inserted vertically along the edges of the baffle to help with that. In an ideal world this would of course be measured, but test equipment needed for that are not in my arsenal of tools. This is a similar issue with the Ardent's. They are supposed to have a bunch of felt glued to the front baffle to alleviate diffraction at the edges of the facets. Take a look at how many folks have actually done that with their builds .... not many, but they still sound pretty amazing!
                                                                      Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                                      WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • Evil Twin
                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                        • Nov 2004
                                                                        • 1531

                                                                        Technical measurements of the unported test cabinet

                                                                        For those interesting in technical performance, these two graphs were taken from the development test cabinets which were not ported, but also located well out into the room to minimize boundary effects.

                                                                        While one always wishes to to provide a well optimized design, as with armed conflict, the enemy will have a say also; in the case of your listening room, it's the room acoustics and the speaker positioning that can be just as critical as the original design. One might review the measured in room performance of many of Troel's designs- some exhibit quite a bit of room interaction in most unfortunate ways... but that is more likely due to room size and positioning than the intrinsic quality of the design.


                                                                        Polar reponse 0 - 30 degrees
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                                                                        On axis response with HD2 and HD3 distortion
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                                                                        Cardas placement will usually produce the most optimum results, but may not be feasible for some due to space limitations and existing furnishings.
                                                                        DFAL
                                                                        Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                        A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • Zvu
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Oct 2013
                                                                          • 434

                                                                          How does it behave in vertical plane given rather large distance of acoustic centers at Y axis ?

                                                                          If the crossover point is low enough it might not present any audible problems but still...
                                                                          Tesla; George Carlin;

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Evil Twin
                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                            • Nov 2004
                                                                            • 1531

                                                                            The crossover is at 1800Hz, and the CTC is lower than past similar designs or the first test cabinet setup. The test cabinets had a combined CTC of 11", but at a listening distance of just 5 feet, the subjective response did not alter significantly between sitting and standing. This is not to say that hard data would not be useful, but it was not deemed worthwhile to measure with the original test setup, as the final CTC is much lower.
                                                                            DFAL
                                                                            Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                            A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Steve Manning
                                                                              Moderator
                                                                              • Dec 2006
                                                                              • 1879

                                                                              CTC distance on the final cabinet is 7.688"
                                                                              Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                                              WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Scottg
                                                                                Senior Member
                                                                                • Nov 2006
                                                                                • 335

                                                                                Idea:

                                                                                Say Jon changes the Ardent or its "poor-man's/rebel-scum" iteration to a fairly simple "stepped" baffle without the angular baffle edge cuts: something that could be done with a straight bit on a router alone (and perhaps a few dimensional cuts for the stacked baffle at the hardware store).

                                                                                Then an enterprising individual comes along and offers the added angular baffle edition that slot's-in nicely to that stepped baffle. To improve on material efficiency: (lowering part costs and shipping costs) make it in 4 pieces (instead of 2: top and bottom) - basically "book-matched sides" for both the top and the bottom of the baffle.

                                                                                (..perhaps use the CNC for optimum cut-path for multiple pieces on a single stacked board, then push the pieces through the table saw for the angles.)

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Bear
                                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                                  • Dec 2008
                                                                                  • 1038

                                                                                  Originally posted by Scottg
                                                                                  Idea:

                                                                                  Say Jon changes the Ardent or its "poor-man's/rebel-scum" iteration to a fairly simple "stepped" baffle without the angular baffle edge cuts: something that could be done with a straight bit on a router alone (and perhaps a few dimensional cuts for the stacked baffle at the hardware store).

                                                                                  Then an enterprising individual comes along and offers the added angular baffle edition that slot's-in nicely to that stepped baffle. To improve on material efficiency: (lowering part costs and shipping costs) make it in 4 pieces (instead of 2: top and bottom) - basically "book-matched sides" for both the top and the bottom of the baffle.

                                                                                  (..perhaps use the CNC for optimum cut-path for multiple pieces on a single stacked board, then push the pieces through the table saw for the angles.)
                                                                                  One might also look at using Brandon's Waveguide for the SB26ADC to help with dispersion and aligning acoustic centers. However, 3DHubs seems to be getting persnickety about sizes and part orientation when getting a quote for a 25um resin print. I'm not a fan of the 100um PETG prints.

                                                                                  EDIT: Apparently a different day yields a different result. The 5" nominal waveguides are passing the 3DHubs manufacturing check, but they are still pricing-out above $100/each with resin. I paid ~$60 for ones I had printed a little less than a year ago.
                                                                                  Last edited by Bear; 03 November 2019, 08:18 Sunday.
                                                                                  Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Bear
                                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                                    • Dec 2008
                                                                                    • 1038

                                                                                    Originally posted by Steve Manning
                                                                                    Many thanks Master ET .... I aim to please.

                                                                                    As to the sound .... only a short listening session yesterday. With them pretty much just plopped in the middle of the room and ~3' from my chair a fair assessment will come once they are located where they need to be. In other words I didn't have the energy to lug all these heavy cabinets around at the end of the day. :W

                                                                                    Initial impressions though, is that Jon has done his usual magic with the design choices. Very clean and detailed, as Jon has stated this tweeter punches way out of it's price range.

                                                                                    Diffraction issues were considered ..... edges are rounded over as well as foam strips are inserted vertically along the edges of the baffle to help with that. In an ideal world this would of course be measured, but test equipment needed for that are not in my arsenal of tools. This is a similar issue with the Ardent's. They are supposed to have a bunch of felt glued to the front baffle to alleviate diffraction at the edges of the facets. Take a look at how many folks have actually done that with their builds .... not many, but they still sound pretty amazing!
                                                                                    Thanks, Steve! I didn't expect there to be any discernible diffraction issues, but I had to ask. What are the dimensions on the small and medium frames, if you can disclose?
                                                                                    Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • Steve Manning
                                                                                      Moderator
                                                                                      • Dec 2006
                                                                                      • 1879

                                                                                      Originally posted by Bear
                                                                                      Thanks, Steve! I didn't expect there to be any discernible diffraction issues, but I had to ask. What are the dimensions on the small and medium frames, if you can disclose?
                                                                                      Hey Bear,

                                                                                      I can disclose ...... The small version has an outside size of 12" X 18" with a baffle width of ~8.5". It can accommodate up to a 7.5" driver. The mid size rib is 16" X 24" with an 11.3" baffle width handling up to 10" drivers. For larger than 10" drivers the back of the ribs take on a flat area to accommodate the required baffle width.

                                                                                      Steve
                                                                                      Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                                                      WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Steve Manning
                                                                                        Moderator
                                                                                        • Dec 2006
                                                                                        • 1879

                                                                                        Originally posted by Bear
                                                                                        One might also look at using Brandon's Waveguide for the SB26ADC to help with dispersion and aligning acoustic centers. However, 3DHubs seems to be getting persnickety about sizes and part orientation when getting a quote for a 25um resin print. I'm not a fan of the 100um PETG prints.

                                                                                        EDIT: Apparently a different day yields a different result. The 5" nominal waveguides are passing the 3DHubs manufacturing check, but they are still pricing-out above $100/each with resin. I paid ~$60 for ones I had printed a little less than a year ago.
                                                                                        Without seeing the waveguides, $100 each does not sound crazy. I ran across this site the other day, https://josephcrowe.com/.. Nice looking stuff and makes that $100 look rather cheap!
                                                                                        Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                                                        WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • Steve Manning
                                                                                          Moderator
                                                                                          • Dec 2006
                                                                                          • 1879

                                                                                          Originally posted by Scottg
                                                                                          Idea:

                                                                                          Say Jon changes the Ardent or its "poor-man's/rebel-scum" iteration to a fairly simple "stepped" baffle without the angular baffle edge cuts: something that could be done with a straight bit on a router alone (and perhaps a few dimensional cuts for the stacked baffle at the hardware store).

                                                                                          Then an enterprising individual comes along and offers the added angular baffle edition that slot's-in nicely to that stepped baffle. To improve on material efficiency: (lowering part costs and shipping costs) make it in 4 pieces (instead of 2: top and bottom) - basically "book-matched sides" for both the top and the bottom of the baffle.

                                                                                          (..perhaps use the CNC for optimum cut-path for multiple pieces on a single stacked board, then push the pieces through the table saw for the angles.)

                                                                                          Good ideas .... matches some stuff we're already looking at.
                                                                                          Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



                                                                                          WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

                                                                                          Comment

                                                                                          • Evil Twin
                                                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                                                            • Nov 2004
                                                                                            • 1531

                                                                                            More than one way to capture a Mandalorian...

                                                                                            Originally posted by Scottg
                                                                                            Idea:

                                                                                            Say Jon changes the Ardent or its "poor-man's/rebel-scum" iteration to a fairly simple "stepped" baffle without the angular baffle edge cuts: something that could be done with a straight bit on a router alone (and perhaps a few dimensional cuts for the stacked baffle at the hardware store).

                                                                                            Then an enterprising individual comes along and offers the added angular baffle edition that slot's-in nicely to that stepped baffle. To improve on material efficiency: (lowering part costs and shipping costs) make it in 4 pieces (instead of 2: top and bottom) - basically "book-matched sides" for both the top and the bottom of the baffle.

                                                                                            (..perhaps use the CNC for optimum cut-path for multiple pieces on a single stacked board, then push the pieces through the table saw for the angles.)

                                                                                            It should be understood that the crossover design used in the Wavecor Ardent is the same 3rd order alignment with the transition point at -6dB which actually requires a reward time offset of the lower frequency driver as used in the NatlieP and Isiris. In the Ardent style cabinet an upward directed launch is created, which makes up for it's diminutive stature compared with the Irsis.

                                                                                            in principle, there is no reason that a conventional tower cabinet cannot be used, though the launch pattern will change, and the midrange slightly more subjected to floor bounce.

                                                                                            The droids have been bushy at DFAL, and driver tests have proceeded as well as construction of test cabinets and some new system concept modeling...


                                                                                            It appears that the most likely driver complement for the value oriented version will use the Zaph ZA14, based on current test results; one more round of testing is planned over a more rigorous series of conditions in the near future.

                                                                                            Higher resolution tests are planned for both polar behavior and distortion at a number of output levels, but results are very interesting for the ZA14. a system using the ZA14 is only feasible with the WA style crossover.


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                                                                                            This results from tests previously run at DFAL with older tools are quite encouraging, and considered together with the performance of the DA25, obviate the need for a moniker such as "poor man's Ardent"- replete as it is with negative connotations about the ultimate performance. Perhaps "Thrifty man's Ardent" is more accurate...


                                                                                            The Duelund concept is still being pursued, but this appears to require more focus on the driver selection, and a very limited number of possible candidates- and most likely abandoning considerations of cost/performance, and only looking at performance. Driver testing should commence next week.


                                                                                            Last, a cabinet concept is proposed which owes inspiration both to the Ardent origins and the Vimberg product line from Tidal Audio. A complete CAD 3D model has been prepared and is being detailed for a test build... this may be limited at first to the Duelund effort.

                                                                                            Note that the angle of the cabinet front and rear to the top and bottom remains the same as the original Ardent and the Wavecor Ardent, but like the Vimberg's, the back of the base is tilted up about 1/2 of that angle, to allow rear passage of the port wave, and to create a more nearly vertical front panel.

                                                                                            Of course, this concept could have room to grow, too, if using drivers like the AS168-9-470, as though the current test build is looking at just two woofers per side, there is no obstacle (other than cost) to expanding this to three woofers per side, with an appropriately lengthened cabinet. But it should be noted that planning for this is attempting to NOT increase the driver BOM compared hugely with the Wavecor Ardent, which limits matters to just two AS168 per side.


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                                                                                            However, test cabinet components for a more conventional build are also well along in fabrication, and should allow some evaluations within a week or two at the outside.
                                                                                            Attached Files
                                                                                            DFAL
                                                                                            Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                                            A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

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