Kurosawa Koncept System

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  • Evil Twin
    Super Senior Member
    • Nov 2004
    • 1531

    Kurosawa Koncept System

    Inspiration may come from many sources...

    Having discovered the film works of Kurosawa, I feel a kindred spirit in the force of his cinematic work, and inspiration for a new loudspeaker system worthy of being a tribute to his work...

    The few imperial agents I still have at my beck and call have been more diligent of late in bringing me the most updated information... new possibilities are on the near horizon, deserving thought and effort such as this arrangement:


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    While it is not as ruthlessly cost effective as some other single vendor designs I have completed in the past; in this case the goal is to be simply, effective.


    Frequency range: 30 Hz to 30 kHz
    Driver complement will include 3x ScanSpeak 10W00-00-00 PR

    Sensitivity after BSC correction: 90 - 91 dB

    Proposed Crossover configuration: Duelund with center frequency of 850Hz, Aleph of 3.0

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    Footprint: approximately 10-12"W X 18-20" D plus stabilizing legs; height ~ 44-48"

    It could be possible to build this in a modular fashion, and that will be considered at length- possibly even for an acoustical prototype.

    With the planned sensitivity, this might be a good fit to an 80W Class A design which has been under consideration for some time- though it's likely that the maximum current operating point will need to be increased to accommodate what may be a low impedance in the mid bass, even using 9 ohm RDC drivers.

    On the other hand, the recently popular Class D designs should have little difficulty providing stunning SPL's with this system.
    Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:28 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
    DFAL
    Dark Force Acoustic Labs

    A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries
  • Alaric
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Jan 2006
    • 4143

    #2
    As neither my skills nor my budget are available for a speaker building project, I'm intrigued. I've thoroughly enjoyed every Kurosawa film I have seen. The list of movies with subtitles I'm willing to sit through consists solely of Akira Kurosawa's work. The stark coloration of your chosen drivers is indeed reminiscent of Seven Samurai. I believe the Force will be strong in this one. opcorn:
    Lee

    Marantz PM7200-RIP
    Marantz PM-KI Pearl
    Schiit Modi 3
    Marantz CD5005
    Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

    Comment

    • Steve Manning
      Moderator
      • Dec 2006
      • 1879

      #3
      For such a nice set of drivers perhaps something like this could work ..... Perhaps with a panzerholz baffle? :B

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      Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:31 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
      Hold on to your butts - It's about to get Musical!



      WEBSITE: http://www.smjaudio.com/

      Comment

      • Evil Twin
        Super Senior Member
        • Nov 2004
        • 1531

        #4
        Your understanding of materials is nearly complete...

        Originally posted by Steve Manning
        For such a nice set of drivers perhaps something like this could work ..... Perhaps with a panzerholz baffle? :B

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        Clearly, your understanding of materials suited to baffle and cabinet construction, and how to implement them, is nearly complete. Were your skills not so heavily occupied by Mr. Marsh, I would undoubtedly be searching for ways to motivate you to use your talents on my behalf. But your understanding of of design esthetics and goals would benefit from a better understanding and use of the dark side...

        Only then will you reach your true potential....

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        Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:32 Sunday. Reason: Update quote
        DFAL
        Dark Force Acoustic Labs

        A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

        Comment

        • flamethrower1
          Senior Member
          • May 2008
          • 392

          #5
          Originally posted by Evil Twin
          Your understanding of materials is nearly complete...

          Clearly, your understanding of materials suited to baffle and cabinet construction, and how to implement them, is nearly complete. Were your skills not so heavily occupied by Mr. Marsh, I would undoubtedly be searching for ways to motivate you to use your talents on my behalf. But your understanding of of design esthetics and goals would benefit from a better understanding and use of the dark side...

          Only then will you reach your true potential....

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          God are those good looking
          Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:33 Sunday. Reason: Update quote

          Comment

          • sdl2112
            Senior Member
            • Mar 2006
            • 571

            #6
            Now I see your inspiration....I will be following the thread with great interest.

            Comment

            • Face
              Senior Member
              • Mar 2007
              • 995

              #7
              The uneven driver spacing on the back of the enclosure is really bothering my OCD...

              Otherwise, I'm really looking forward to seeing this project come to fruition.
              SEOS 12/AE TD10M Front Stage in Progress

              Comment

              • hyperducky
                Member
                • May 2015
                • 44

                #8
                At ~$7100 per pair for only the drivers (7800 with the PR's) this is quite the concept I would guess it would be over $10k for a pair if the crossovers are kept to under 1k per speaker. Don't think I could even think of doing something like this. But if someone does I'd love to see what comes of it😀


                Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

                Comment

                • Evil Twin
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Nov 2004
                  • 1531

                  #9
                  AS190 driver- most interesting technology...

                  Though it is likely that many might dismiss the newest Accuton woofers as an exercise in differentiating cosmetics, one would likely miss the point completely with that assumption.

                  Information obtained from captured Bothan spies indicates that performance differentiation on several fronts were sought during their development- with some curiously useful characteristics resulting toward the application of commercial speaker systems, particularly in the now popular tower format. These characteristics were largely confirmed in testing at the Seinar Lab being built up in this system on the western coastal region of the North American continent.

                  Here is a rendition of the test article sample in a relatively narrow small conventional sealed cabinet- behavior at 100Hz and above was the primary focus for today's tests.

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                  Tests were made both in relative near field (15cm), to verify quasi anechoic response and distortion, and a polar set was obtained using 1 meter measurements, a valid condition for the relatively small baffle Note, this cabinet was set upon other test system with a similar front baffle width extending to the floor, and this will have some impact on the overall boundary loading, though it should be relatively small...


                  Near field (15cm) Response, 2.83VRMS, normalized for graphing

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                  Near field, (15cm) Distortion and original signal, 2.83VRMS

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                  Results show resonance amplification of distortion products as expected, but excellent performance to 300Hz and quite usable performance to about 750 Hz.


                  Next, on axis at 1 meter, same test setup, no equipment changes other than moving microphone and adjusting graphing level to normalize to 0 dB.

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                  And a polar set from 0 degrees to 50 degrees at 10 degree increments.

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                  Satisfactory... most satisfactory.

                  So, to summarize, for those whose attention may have been wandering, we seem to have a moderate sensitivity 9 Ohm RDC 190mm (7.5") driver with a cone Sd roughly the same as typical 8" woofers, which has very, very flat near field measured response that on a tall slim measuring setup exhibits far field response that is nearly identical, (seemingly defying conventional expectations for baffle step behavior) and exhibits a power response characteristic (due to cone shape?) which is quite usable out to 3 kHz, well beyond it's intended functioning range (below 1 kHz), assuring the likelihood of very neutral power response characteristics in a typical speaker system.

                  It is no surprise that we are seeing a substantial number of new speaker systems from Europe using this family of drivers.


                  Now, just as an alternate data point, immediately afterwards I measured the Motus UH165WP1 driver, a 7" driver with underhung voice coil motor and as mentioned in the NatalieP Ultra project thread, a very promising looking driver.


                  UH165WP1 at 15cm and 7 cm measurement distance (going closer than the equivalent diameter of the driver distorts the results)

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                  UH165WP1 Distortion at 2.83VRSM Drive

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                  Last, UH165WP1 Polar set 0 - 50 degrees at 1M


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                  Very respectable results in the context of conventional expectations, and a drive I look forward to working with in the upgraded NatalieP project- clearly well designed, in a conventional sense.
                  Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:34 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                  DFAL
                  Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                  A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                  Comment

                  • Juhazi
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2008
                    • 239

                    #10
                    Sorry I can't resist this... How about a Snoopy's version of the same with Tangband or Dayton drivers? I would expect only minor difference in sound but 1/50th cost.

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                    Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:35 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                    My DIY speaker history: -74 Philips 3-way, -82 Hifi 85B, -07 Zaph L18, -08 Hifitalo AW-7, CSS125FR, -09 MarkK ER18DXT, -13 PPSL470Dayton, -13 AINOgradient, -18 Avalanche AS-1 dsp, -18 MR183w

                    Comment

                    • Evil Twin
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Nov 2004
                      • 1531

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Juhazi
                      Sorry I can't resist this... How about a Snoopy's version of the same with Tangband or Dayton drivers? I would expect only minor difference in sound but 1/50th cost.

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                      Given that I got my start in this endeavor with all Dayton Audio Reference driver systems like the NatalieP, I can appreciate the intent behind your suggestion, and without question the price of drivers is a serious barrier to entry.

                      Just a coincidence, I think, but I actually ordered one of the newer versions of the RS28a-4 to test in comparison to it's predecessor, and some of the many other entrants or competitors for high end dome tweeters. I think a cross comparison in this category is over due- and why not pit a few promising Davids against some well known Goliaths?

                      To include:
                      • Dayton Audio RS18a-4
                      • Transducer Lab TL26a
                      • Seas 27TBCD/GB-DXT
                      • Scanspeak D2908/7140
                      • Accuton C25-6-158
                      • ScanSpeak D2905/9900
                      • SB Acoustics SB26ADC



                      But considering your suggestion, and some of the system requirements for acoustic center time alignment, radiation consistency, distortion and driver impedance, you must be aware of some Dayton or Tangband components which I am not...

                      So please do inform me of an 220cm class woofer in the 9-10 ohm RDC range with 9mm of Xmax with the actual acoustic center in the mounting plane- (to facilitate crossover with critical time alignment requirements such as Duelund) if the frequency response is not so flat as an Accuton AS series, well, we can work with that in the crossover, as we have with the RS drivers and their idiosyncrasies in the past. Sensitivity should be in the 84-86 dB range.

                      Also, please do inform me of a 125mm to 150mm mid woofer which can cover 60 Hz to 6 kHz without undue effort, sensitivity of 89 to 90 dB with an underhung motor (they work exceptionally well with the proper design due to monotonically decreasing harmonic distortion with frequency), and the acoustic center in the plane of mounting (it goes a long way to facilitating a Duelund crossover with a higher center frequency). Something with 4mm of Xmax or more will do.

                      Anything meeting these requirements I will happily and graciously purchase samples to evaluate, especially at 1/50 of the cost of the Accuton drivers to me. This gives a budget of $10 for the woofer, $6.00 for the midrange, and about $4.00 for the tweeter. I am quite excited at the prospect of finding drivers with this level of performance at the pricing you suggest is possible...

                      Clearly the SB Acoustics SB26ADC-C000-4 is grossly over priced at $50, based on the information you are holding and can convey to us...
                      Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:36 Sunday. Reason: Update quote
                      DFAL
                      Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                      A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                      Comment

                      • Juhazi
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2008
                        • 239

                        #12
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                        Message received! One more cat to be skinned by Twin is https://www.marten.se/mingus/

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                        Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:37 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                        My DIY speaker history: -74 Philips 3-way, -82 Hifi 85B, -07 Zaph L18, -08 Hifitalo AW-7, CSS125FR, -09 MarkK ER18DXT, -13 PPSL470Dayton, -13 AINOgradient, -18 Avalanche AS-1 dsp, -18 MR183w

                        Comment

                        • Norm
                          Member
                          • Mar 2011
                          • 62

                          #13
                          Oh Dark Master as always your timing is perfect. The use of Cell technology will restore the empire to its rightful place as masters of the known galaxies. Not for a moment to imply the minor loss of a couple of small space stations has in any way effected the Empire's status or power reach.

                          I humbly suggest you dispatch an intelligence drone to the nearest Sol system news stand for a copy of June 2016 Stereophile. In it is the review of the Marten Coltrane 3. Earthling Atkinson's measurements show, specifically step response Fig 2 page 77, that the Cell drivers are indeed able to achieve the blissful state of "100% time and phase coherent". You may consider disciplining Atkinson due to his whining and stubbornness insisting on measuring on the tweeters axis rather than the obviously lower listening axis. Even with this earth man's failing the right triangle shape of a textbook perfect step response is clearly visible. It is interesting to compare this to Fig 6 page 66 step response for the B&W 802 D3 Diamond. The later shows the all too typical triple bump of a sharp spike for tweeter, 0.25 mS later along come midrange output then after we wait another 1.25 mS the woofer comes as they say in the southern regions of Earth's North American continent mozieing along.

                          Another earthling in need of disciplining is Fremer, despite or perhaps without seeing the measurement he opines comparing the Marten to Wilson and Vandersteen pointing out they are "physically time-aligned by means of stepped enclosures. In my opinion, in terms of sound, this allows for instrumental layering and an apparent bafflelessness that no "slab" speaker can duplicate regardless of baffle rake or meticulousness of crossover design." If only a Jedi master could visit him and while lifting him by the neck using the Dark Force a lecture on the folly of making such sweeping pronouncements based on listening in his known to be too small room he could be brought to enlightenment before any others are led astray.

                          Comment

                          • hyperducky
                            Member
                            • May 2015
                            • 44

                            #14
                            Impressive MOST Impressive.... Obi-Wan has taught you well...

                            Comment

                            • Juhazi
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2008
                              • 239

                              #15
                              ^^The diffrence in step responses comes mainly form xo "order" B&W has obviously LR4 while Marten is 1st order, both 3-way. I have access to the magazine online, but both tests will hopefully soon be available here http://www.stereophile.com/category/...peaker-reviews
                              My DIY speaker history: -74 Philips 3-way, -82 Hifi 85B, -07 Zaph L18, -08 Hifitalo AW-7, CSS125FR, -09 MarkK ER18DXT, -13 PPSL470Dayton, -13 AINOgradient, -18 Avalanche AS-1 dsp, -18 MR183w

                              Comment

                              • Evil Twin
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Nov 2004
                                • 1531

                                #16
                                Originally posted by Norm
                                Oh Dark Master as always your timing is perfect. The use of Cell technology will restore the empire to its rightful place as masters of the known galaxies. Not for a moment to imply the minor loss of a couple of small space stations has in any way effected the Empire's status or power reach.

                                I humbly suggest you dispatch an intelligence drone to the nearest Sol system news stand for a copy of June 2016 Stereophile. In it is the review of the Marten Coltrane 3. Earthling Atkinson's measurements show, specifically step response Fig 2 page 77, that the Cell drivers are indeed able to achieve the blissful state of "100% time and phase coherent". You may consider disciplining Atkinson due to his whining and stubbornness insisting on measuring on the tweeters axis rather than the obviously lower listening axis. Even with this earth man's failing the right triangle shape of a textbook perfect step response is clearly visible. It is interesting to compare this to Fig 6 page 66 step response for the B&W 802 D3 Diamond. The later shows the all too typical triple bump of a sharp spike for tweeter, 0.25 mS later along come midrange output then after we wait another 1.25 mS the woofer comes as they say in the southern regions of Earth's North American continent mozieing along.

                                Another earthling in need of disciplining is Fremer, despite or perhaps without seeing the measurement he opines comparing the Marten to Wilson and Vandersteen pointing out they are "physically time-aligned by means of stepped enclosures. In my opinion, in terms of sound, this allows for instrumental layering and an apparent bafflelessness that no "slab" speaker can duplicate regardless of baffle rake or meticulousness of crossover design." If only a Jedi master could visit him and while lifting him by the neck using the Dark Force a lecture on the folly of making such sweeping pronouncements based on listening in his known to be too small room he could be brought to enlightenment before any others are led astray.

                                In the normal progression of events, the reviewer reviews the product. In some cases, the challenge may be such that the product reviews the reviewer. The situation with the Stereophile review borders on the latter case... in this case, their attempt to review the product reveals ingrained biases and perspective not becoming to asserting the position of an unbiased and all knowing reviewer...

                                One might think this inevitable and excusable in an age where exposure to the internet has equipped so many individuals with enough technical buzzwords that they can prattle on sounding as if they had an engineering background, pontificating on why or why not something can or can not work to their satisfaction; while revealing to one actually skilled in the arts an encumbered noise floor which renders their verbosity most tedious....

                                In the case of Mr. Atkinson and Mr. Fremer we actually have two quite knowledgeable individuals for whom this system is nonetheless revealing ingrained biases in their thinking just as readily as it reveals the intrinsic delights in the musical selections Mr. Fremer plays on on his phonograph...

                                So one might ask, who is the reviewer, and who is reviewed? Certainly a bit of both in this case. It is most curious that Mr. Fremer makes a case for there being an intrinsic defect in the design of the Coltrane 3, claiming that somehow it can't be properly time aligned compared with speaker systems using inferior drivers that must be physically moved back and forth from the mounting plane to align the acoustics centers. This is, as another extra galactic citizen who has passed on would say, "highly illogical".

                                On the other hand, differences in off axis power response and the voicing used for direct and power response slopes might well accurately explain the differences in imaging rendition and location of the sound state he experienced... but these parameters may not be in his mental lexicon or vocabulary.

                                Undoubtedly Marten's designers had to make some decisions about the trade off between the extended usable frequency response (6 kHz) of the C90-6-724 versus the C168 (approximately 4 kHz) versus the greater radiating area and low frequency capability of the C168. However the use of the AS250, with it's primary breakup mode nearly one octave lower than the AS190, most likely mandated the use of the C168 with it's somewhat more limited upper frequency range and dispersion. With conventional crossovers this would not be so much of an issue, but using 1st order networks places far greater demands on the drivers.

                                Last, I would comment that a number of reviewers, both brief at more at length have commented on how much improved the Coltrane 3 is over it's predecessor, and a great deal of that commentary has justifiably focused on the quality and dynamics and musicality (pitch definition?) of the low frequency response... this can largely be laid at the feet of the AS250, of this I am most certain.


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                                The Marten Coltrane 3 ($97,000 USD per pair) was a surprise. Iā€™d never been bowled over by Marten speakers of years past, but I came away from the Coltrane 3 feeling that itā€™s a real step up in sound quality. Compared to the earlier Coltranes Iā€™ve heard, the 3ā€™s sound was much more authoritative -- bigger, and the improvement wasnā€™t all in the bass. The Coltrane 3 sounded as if it had been released from the shackles that weighed down Coltranes 1 and 2 -- in other words, it was more dynamically capable. I know that its industrial design is controversial among audiophiles -- one of our own writers found the two-tone baffle/body a jarring combo. But I thought the Coltrane 3 was classically proportioned, with a nice blend of high-tech and artisan touches. The last track I heard in the Marten room was of an acoustic piano, with heavy emphasis of the left-hand keys. The Coltrane 3s sounded large -- in terms of both dynamic range and the soundstage they created. My takeaway: a really nice upgrade from the folks at Marten.

                                For reference, modified or not, (and modifications may be mainly cosmetic- this appears to becoming popular with German speaker builders) the Coltrane 3 is based on the following drivers:
                                • The diamond version of the C30-6-358
                                • The C168-6-990 ceramic midrange (cell type)
                                • The AS250 cell woofer


                                Unlike many of the Tidal models, the Coltrane uses a downward firing port which helps to suppress the midrange resonance inherent in the dimensions of a tube ported system. It also avoids the substantial expense of a high quality passive radiator array; an expense often misunderstood, because due to design issues, many or the majority of passive radiators have quite different small signal behavior from large signal, and the simplest way to address this is to simply use more of the passive radiators to keep them closer to the small signal operating point... an expensive and inelegant solution.
                                Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:38 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                DFAL
                                Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                Comment

                                • Juhazi
                                  Senior Member
                                  • May 2008
                                  • 239

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by Juhazi
                                  ^^The diffrence in step responses comes mainly form xo "order" B&W has obviously LR4 while Marten is 1st order, both 3-way. I have access to the magazine online, but both tests will hopefully soon be available here http://www.stereophile.com/category/...peaker-reviews
                                  B&W 802 test is out now http://www.stereophile.com/content/b...vEQKpZBOWpC.97

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                                  and Marten Coltrane 3 here http://www.stereophile.com/content/m...tLCA9CPjqy8.97
                                  Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:40 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                  My DIY speaker history: -74 Philips 3-way, -82 Hifi 85B, -07 Zaph L18, -08 Hifitalo AW-7, CSS125FR, -09 MarkK ER18DXT, -13 PPSL470Dayton, -13 AINOgradient, -18 Avalanche AS-1 dsp, -18 MR183w

                                  Comment

                                  • Evil Twin
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Nov 2004
                                    • 1531

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by Juhazi
                                    ā€‹

                                    This is what I would expect, given a three way with high order crossovers and multiple phase rotations with drivers that do not appear to be time aligned in a net acoustic + electrical sense. This is not to say that this is the "wrong" way to do this, but questions to arise as to how optimum this approach is sonically. It has clear advantages in minimizing the transition band requirements as well as out of band loading on the drivers. In other regards further evaluation would be required.

                                    I have completed verifying the low frequency alignment design using a second tool, and confirmed that the desired but difficult to achieve results with the first tool are not a fluke or error in the tool- given the AS190 Fs of 39Hz, achieving a system target response of 30Hz does not seem possible on the surface. However, results from both tools confirm that the calculations appear valid, and the next step is building a test enclosure for one AS190 in this configuration and assessing the results.

                                    Parts are on order to complete this next task in the near future.

                                    My European agent who has arranged a person demo of a competing design in Cologne Germany has confirmed that low frequency extension is a weak point of that system, using Accuton PR's, and it does not pass the Lorde "Tennis Court" or "Royals" test.
                                    Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:41 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                    DFAL
                                    Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                    A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                    Comment

                                    • Norm
                                      Member
                                      • Mar 2011
                                      • 62

                                      #19
                                      The Dark Twin wrote ā€œIn the normal progression of events, the reviewer reviews the product. In some cases, the challenge may be such that the product reviews the reviewer. The situation with the Stereophile review borders on the latter case... in this case, their attempt to review the product reveals ingrained biases and perspective not becoming to asserting the position of an unbiased and all knowing reviewer...ā€

                                      At the risk of appearing to pander just to avoid reassignment to a posting on some edge of The Empire desert planet with sand fleas the size of dachshunds that is the best thing written about the state of the HiFi press and this odd game of subjective reviewing in the past five years. In the review being discussed comparisons are made to the big Wilsons with stepped adjustable baffles. Here is an example of their step response to compare to the Marten Coltrane 3.

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                                      Fig.9 Wilson Alexia, step response on listening axis at 50" (5ms time window, 30kHz bandwidth).
                                      Read more athttp://www.stereophile.com/content/w...glrC1WaSHwO.99

                                      I agree with Juhaziā€™s post above the step response differences between the example Marten Coltrane 3 and B&W 802 D3 Diamond in the cited articles are due to the engineering tradeoffs, compromises, market goals, and personal preferences of the designers. I found it an interesting bit of synchronicity that the Coltrane 3 review appeared just as our Dark Twin revealed Cell power for his latest fast attack cruiser. As the hyperdrive engine builder Accuton began revealing details of the Cell power plants the changes in their architecture specifically allowing alignment of the acoustic centers between HF, MF, and LF thrusters at the baffle plane have been loudly touted. The earthman Atkinsonā€™s measurements are some of the first I have seen giving evidence that Accuton has succeeded.

                                      Of course across the galaxy the arguments rage if the tradeoffs necessary to achieve ā€˜time coherenceā€™ are worthwhile, detrimental, or even audible. This article by Brent Butterworth summarizes nicely.

                                      Does the use of a first-order crossover really make a better speaker? Brent Butterworth explores the topic in this week's featured news story.


                                      I have come to the conclusion that individuals vary widely in their personal response to phase coherent reproduction. I believe this is due to both individual differences in how we hear and what we value in the sound of our music. Personally I am drawn to inherently time coherent systems like full range electrostatics or single driver systems, yet conflicted in also wanting the dynamics and bandwidth we get from multi-driver moving coil driver systems. I have to trot out the hackneyed phrase ā€˜holographic imagingā€™ and nebulous references to ā€˜greater transparencyā€™ attempting to describe the effects minimum phase systems exhibit. Going for ā€˜phase coherentā€™ or ā€˜minimum phaseā€™ is in that last percentile of final icing the cake, ironic given to achieve it steps have to be taken all along the design process.

                                      Thanks to Stereophileā€™s online archives letā€™s look at two other ways to achieve minimum phase.

                                      Single ā€œā€full rangeā€ā€ moving coil driver

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                                      Fig.5 Horn Shoppe Horn, step response on driver axis at 50" (5ms time window, 30kHz bandwidth).
                                      Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/h...Y8CEQUIcAVG.99

                                      No crossovers = naturally minimum phase response, however in this case as the back loaded horn attempts its doomed mission of making some bass we end up with a one trick pony. Time domain behavior great, even tonality not so great.

                                      Electrostatic full range

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                                      Fig.7 Quad Reference ESL-2805, step response on listening axis at 50" (5ms time window, 30kHz bandwidth).
                                      Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/q...hBMZdhWIaRA.99

                                      As I recall it was in the long lost Audio magazine that Peter Walker demonstrated his ESL-63 could actually at mid frequencies reproduce some semblance of a square wave. Nice to see its great grandson has the family chops.

                                      And not to forget the American designers who hold time accuracy dear and achieve it with woofers, midranges, and tweeters.

                                      Richard Vandersteen

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                                      Fig.3 shows the left-channel speaker's step response at the position of my ears in the listening roomā€”although it is subsequently disturbed by room reflections, the initial arrival is an almost textbook right-triangle shape. Goal achieved.ā€”John Atkinson
                                      Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/v...PBjm2oou7wv.99

                                      Jim Theil, may he rest in peace.

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                                      Fig.6 Thiel CS2.4, step response on tweeter axis at 50" (5ms time window, 30kHz bandwidth).

                                      Read more at http://www.stereophile.com/content/t...Eh7SFAjDq9C.99

                                      Now, letā€™s set the Hyperdrive to the 1970s. Along with writing Fortran programs to compute Thiele/Small alignments on mainframes there was a great deal of interest in more rigor being brought to bear on crossover design, including time behavior. This led to many stepped multi-baffle designs. Some were brief flirtations like the Dalquest DQ-10 or Technics models.

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                                      But it was the two big English companies that made it a long-term part of their DNA.

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                                      KEF 105 (1977) through Reference 5 (2016)

                                      I had to use this image for KEF showing the progression of models through the years, until the stepped aligned baffles give way to the more stylish tower ā€œdue to the engineering tradeoffs, compromises, market goals, and personal preferences of the designersā€. I believe that final transition from Model 207 to Reference 5 illustrates the real goal of the Cell drivers. Specifically the potential to allow the excellent time behavior we look for with stepped baffles on a sleek flat baffle vs. only audiophile bachelor approved technical design look all too many stepped baffle designs exhibit.

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                                      B&W DM6 circa 1976

                                      If she looks a little pregnant itā€™s because she is about to give birth to the 801. In my opinion both DM6 and the follow on 801 are two of the better stepped baffle designs from an industrial design standpoint because, B&W; that rarity in HiFi who actually employ an industrial designer in this case Kenneth Grange. This image reveals details of the DM6 I had forgotten like the foam around the tweeter to minimize diffraction, quite often a problem with the busy stepped baffle architecture.

                                      Letā€™s back away from a complete hijacking of the Dark Twins project thread (oh no, too late) by pointing out stepped baffles do not necessarily equate with or require the 1st order crossovers discussed above. In fact throughout its run of 800 family speakers B&W mostly used 4th order crossovers. A couple of generations ago they announced a simplification of those, stopped mentioning the order, and I believe I noted the tweeter pods moving forward. And now we see in the above referenced review of the 802 D3 Diamond, minimum phase behavior is not one of their primary design criteria. Evil Twin plans his crossover as ā€œProposed Crossover configuration: Duelund with center frequency of 850Hz, Aleph of 3.0ā€. I will watch with great interest how the Duelund crossover plus aligned acoustic centers of the Cell drivers work together.
                                      Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:45 Sunday. Reason: Update image location

                                      Comment

                                      • Juhazi
                                        Senior Member
                                        • May 2008
                                        • 239

                                        #20
                                        I can't resist, step of Marten Coltrane 3 (even better at optimal axis)

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                                        Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:46 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                        My DIY speaker history: -74 Philips 3-way, -82 Hifi 85B, -07 Zaph L18, -08 Hifitalo AW-7, CSS125FR, -09 MarkK ER18DXT, -13 PPSL470Dayton, -13 AINOgradient, -18 Avalanche AS-1 dsp, -18 MR183w

                                        Comment

                                        • Evil Twin
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Nov 2004
                                          • 1531

                                          #21
                                          I must congratulate you on a thorough and interesting review of the topic- be assured that you will NOT be assigned to any remote desert planet with fleas the size of small dogs, or to another super death weapon project, which always seems to end badly due to meddlesome rebels- especially if you continue to exhibit such interesting completeness in your commentary. (Fail to do this, though, and the sand fleas you encounter will be of a nature to strike fear in Siberian Huskies... )

                                          A point often overlooked is that the vast majority of conventional high order crossovers require alignment of acoustical centers in order to perform in their ideal sense; otherwise tricks and modifications are required to adjust the phase in the transition region. There are other methods, such as using symmetric crossovers with time delay in DSP that can be of assistance when considering on axis behavior- what these Jedi tricks fail to realize is that the waveform becomes completely compromised when considering off axis radiating behavior and the geometry which works for a front to back alignment is completely irrelevant to the sides...

                                          For this reason, alignment of the acoustic origins is a very significant technological achievement, and brings the possibility of a coherent wavefront at whatever order of crossover is desired over a wide frontal axis, with a uniform vertical radiation axis.

                                          In this regard, reviewers sadly are often not capable of thinking fully in three dimensions, much less adding in the 4th dimension due to crossover time delay effects and the nature of the propagation of electrical signals in crossovers.

                                          It should be noted that this radiation alignment capability would also be very favorable to the Duelund alignment, which in one equation describes a complete transfer function with all the components for a three way system that sums to unity. This concept has several interesting properties, including that apart from the basic equation only the specification of a center frequency and aleph gain factor is necessary to calculate any specific transfer function variant. Additionally, with the caveat that drivers must be aligned in the same acoustic plane, at any frequency, all drivers are in the same relative phase. One phase rotation and only one occurs between the lowest frequency and the upper treble passband. The last interesting curiosity is that if the aleph gain factor is reduced below a certain level, the transfer function devolves to an LR4 crossover.

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                                          The Danes as a small country on this benighted planet have made outsized contributions to the art of Audio- Steen's passing in 2005 was most unfortunate.

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                                          Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:50 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                          DFAL
                                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                          Comment

                                          • 5th element
                                            Supreme Being Moderator
                                            • Sep 2009
                                            • 1671

                                            #22
                                            That Cell bass driver measures quite nicely. What drive level was that at?
                                            What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                                            5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                                            Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                                            Comment

                                            • Evil Twin
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Nov 2004
                                              • 1531

                                              #23
                                              That was at an earth standard 2.83VRMS, with 86 dB out at 1M. It is planned to investigate the behavior at higher levels, but consider that a composite set of three drivers in parallel should achieve this level of performance with 95 dB output. Obviously the next time things are setup 5.6VRMS should be added to the regime- this would correlate with for three drivers to 101 dB, certainly a useful benchmark.

                                              Presuming that the planned and calculated low frequency alignment is fully feasible, it should be possible to achieve 110 dB from each cabinet with 30 watts input per driver over most of the low frequency range with Xmax barely over 4mm at it's peak above 30Hz. This leaves some headroom for linearity and higher peak levels, given the rated 9mm Xmax.

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                                              I will ensure that the engineering team is fully motivated in the necessary manner to achieve this goal. For large signal linearity reasons we are also investigating the Seas SL26R in a modified configuration.
                                              Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:51 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                              DFAL
                                              Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                              A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                              Comment

                                              • 5th element
                                                Supreme Being Moderator
                                                • Sep 2009
                                                • 1671

                                                #24
                                                Well with the 2nd and 3rd harmonics down 60 and 70dB for the 86dB test (midrange nominal) you can assume that higher drive levels are going to look pretty good too. There's always that balancing act that you typically have to follow between absolute bass performance and trading some of that away for decent midrange too - typical of a true bass driver for the bottom of a three way, rather than a sub.

                                                Still at least you seem to be getting what you pay for here, 60 and 70dB down is impressive and something of a rarity in Accuton's catalogue/past history.
                                                What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                                                5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                                                Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                                                Comment

                                                • Evil Twin
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • Nov 2004
                                                  • 1531

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by 5th element
                                                  Well with the 2nd and 3rd harmonics down 60 and 70dB for the 86dB test (midrange nominal) you can assume that higher drive levels are going to look pretty good too.

                                                  Still at least you seem to be getting what you pay for here, 60 and 70dB down is impressive and something of a rarity in Accuton's catalogue/past history.
                                                  Given information obtained by an imperial agent visiting them directly, and gleaned from discussions with German loudspeaker producers during and following the Munich High End Show 2016, one might be well tempted to infer some points by "reading between the lines" -

                                                  The previously sandwich structure drivers such as the S280 were a developmental headache and did not fully realize their goals. No further development is occurring on that path.

                                                  The new cell midrange and woofer drivers were an all out effort by Accuton to address key "ideal" requirements from their primary customer base- considering their business model and the market situation, it might not be unrealistic to infer that the future of the company rested on the success or failure of those efforts, and the ability for customers to use them to achieve a new generation of high performance designs.

                                                  The Accuton engineering and manufacturing team seems to have come through, and while not perfect drivers, and while even raising the cost envelope further in some regards, this series seems to have met it's goals and then some.

                                                  The mounting plane acoustic source and the more idealized radiation pattern of the AS190 and AS250 deserve to be labeled breakthroughs- and though Accuton doesn't talk about the details of their new "proprietary" motor design, I believe we can all agree that the measured results speak quite eloquently to their success.

                                                  With this series, new performance envelopes should be opened up to those "skilled in the art", as long as sufficient monetary budget can be procured. But fully realizing their capabilities may take time and development with more than just Accuton's own accessories.
                                                  DFAL
                                                  Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                  A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Evil Twin
                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                    • Nov 2004
                                                    • 1531

                                                    #26
                                                    Another possibility for the LF alignment

                                                    Mssr's Manning and Marsh have brought another set of possibilities to my attention which should work better in the form factor under consideration than the larger passive radiators I have been considering-

                                                    Wavecore PR223BD02

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                                                    In a 24L volume with an AS190, and two of these in the stock configuration, it appears we should have a very favorable result- cross checking in another tool verifies this calculation.


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                                                    This will be the first configuration tested, as it is by far the most promising of all in a complete design sense.
                                                    Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:52 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                                    DFAL
                                                    Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                    A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Evil Twin
                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                      • Nov 2004
                                                      • 1531

                                                      #27
                                                      Status Report

                                                      Matters are proceeding in several areas...
                                                      • More drivers have been ordered for testing - new tweeter candidates and midrange
                                                      • The first low frequency test enclosure construction is nearly complete, and two more are in the process of being initiated
                                                      • Intensive research into materials and vendors for cabinet construction is well underway, and requisitions may be placed within a couple of weeks
                                                      • Initial CAD studies are underway considering current issues with low frequency design, particularly passive radiator candidates
                                                      • First LF module tests to verify LF design concepts are scheduled within the next few days
                                                      DFAL
                                                      Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                      A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                      Comment

                                                      • Face
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Mar 2007
                                                        • 995

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Evil Twin
                                                        Matters are proceeding in several areas...
                                                        [LIST][*]More drivers have been ordered for testing - new tweeter candidates and midrange
                                                        Care to elaborate?
                                                        SEOS 12/AE TD10M Front Stage in Progress

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Evil Twin
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Nov 2004
                                                          • 1531

                                                          #29
                                                          Transducer Labs Beryllium dome tweeter, and Accuton C90-6-724. Information collected from other channels is not fully encouraging with regards to the C25-6-158- this does not preclude investigation in the future. Comparing the N26BRG to the 7140 should be interesting...
                                                          DFAL
                                                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Evil Twin
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Nov 2004
                                                            • 1531

                                                            #30
                                                            It is all coming together as I have foreseen...

                                                            In fact, it seems that Federal Express delivery service is nearly as reliable as Imperial Express Delivery... impressive, most impressive.


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                                                            I am informed by other members of this forum that the correct idiom in the local vernacular of this quadrant to describe the recently received components implies a very high degree of surface reflectivity... how this impacts their behavior as acoustical transducers is not at all apparent to me- but for now, pending the necessary tests and examinations, it seems that they may meet our immediate requirements for midrange transducers.

                                                            In this area, certain manufacturers of the region of Germany on this planet to appear to have leading technology in the quadrant.

                                                            Other logistics operations are proceeding smoothly, as well as design studies for related low frequency configurations.
                                                            Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:52 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                                            DFAL
                                                            Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                            A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                            Comment

                                                            • Alaric
                                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                                              • Jan 2006
                                                              • 4143

                                                              #31
                                                              I am informed by other members of this forum that the correct idiom in the local vernacular of this quadrant to describe the recently received components implies a very high degree of surface reflectivity
                                                              :rofl:
                                                              Lee

                                                              Marantz PM7200-RIP
                                                              Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                                                              Schiit Modi 3
                                                              Marantz CD5005
                                                              Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Beau
                                                                Member
                                                                • Apr 2005
                                                                • 74

                                                                #32
                                                                Oooohhhhh, shiny!!!!!

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Alaric
                                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                                  • Jan 2006
                                                                  • 4143

                                                                  #33
                                                                  I could hear Kaley saying that to Mal as I read it. LOL
                                                                  Lee

                                                                  Marantz PM7200-RIP
                                                                  Marantz PM-KI Pearl
                                                                  Schiit Modi 3
                                                                  Marantz CD5005
                                                                  Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Evil Twin
                                                                    Super Senior Member
                                                                    • Nov 2004
                                                                    • 1531

                                                                    #34
                                                                    Transducer Lab N26BRG

                                                                    More components with a high surface reflectivity index, this time with a more appropriate and desirable coloration....

                                                                    The grilles are optional and must be mounted carefully...


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                                                                    Magnet and rear chamber plate construction is substantially different from earlier products from Transducer Lab

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                                                                    DFAL
                                                                    Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                    A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • sdl2112
                                                                      Senior Member
                                                                      • Mar 2006
                                                                      • 571

                                                                      #35
                                                                      I like...:T Are those the aluminum or glass fiber bobbin type? Curious what differences you might expect on a tweeter.

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • meb46
                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                        • Jul 2010
                                                                        • 398

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Transducer Labs Tweeters look good, but still lack the aesthetic beauty of the new SS Beryllium Domes IMO - Now we just need to establish which performs better!

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • cochinada
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • May 2014
                                                                          • 658

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by meb46
                                                                          Transducer Labs Tweeters look good, but still lack the aesthetic beauty of the new SS Beryllium Domes IMO - Now we just need to establish which performs better!
                                                                          If I was to place a bet my money would be on the TL. 8)
                                                                          Joaquim

                                                                          DIY 4 way speakers.
                                                                          DIY subwoofers.
                                                                          Zaph ZD3C.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • Face
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Mar 2007
                                                                            • 995

                                                                            #38
                                                                            I'm looking forward to the results as well. Just wish TL would go with a face plate that didn't remind me of 1980's Peerless.
                                                                            SEOS 12/AE TD10M Front Stage in Progress

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • Evil Twin
                                                                              Super Senior Member
                                                                              • Nov 2004
                                                                              • 1531

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by sdl2112
                                                                              I like...:T Are those the aluminum or glass fiber bobbin type? Curious what differences you might expect on a tweeter.
                                                                              These are the glass fiber bobbin- they were out of stock on the Aluminum, my initial choice. I expect the bobbin material impacts both the breakup mode resonance Q and to some degree the thermals- if I had to guess, slightly poorer thermals, but perhaps a lower Q breakup resonance.

                                                                              Soon we shall know....
                                                                              DFAL
                                                                              Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                              A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Evil Twin
                                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                                • Nov 2004
                                                                                • 1531

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by cochinada
                                                                                If I was to place a bet my money would be on the TL. 8)
                                                                                Data from the Ceramic TL shows very good motor performance- at the least, I expect lower HD2.



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                                                                                Conventional wisdom might say that the HD2 will make the 7140 sound more "sweet" with a little extra "air"; euphonic colorations in the minds of some. A more relevant point may be how the throat in the mounting plate of the 7140 impacts high frequency dispersion. This remains to be seen.

                                                                                Both are in different performance categories for distortion compared with a typical $50 to $100 tweeter... even some fairly well designed ones.

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                                                                                Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:52 Sunday. Reason: Update image location
                                                                                DFAL
                                                                                Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                                A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • 5th element
                                                                                  Supreme Being Moderator
                                                                                  • Sep 2009
                                                                                  • 1671

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  My thoughts too Jon, the glass fibre former should help to dampen any dome resonance at the expense of power handling. Although all things considered I got the impression that most of the heat conducted/radiated directly off of the coil into the top plate, rather than through the coil former and into the pole piece but then every little helps.

                                                                                  I too don't understand why TL make their face plates so damned ugly in this day of style.
                                                                                  What you screamin' for, every five minutes there's a bomb or something. I'm leavin' Bzzzzzzz!
                                                                                  5th Element, otherwise known as Matt.
                                                                                  Now with website. www.5een.co.uk Still under construction.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • cochinada
                                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                                    • May 2014
                                                                                    • 658

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    I did measure my N26MGR-G before:

                                                                                    Image not available
                                                                                    Last edited by theSven; 18 June 2023, 21:53 Sunday. Reason: Remove broken image link
                                                                                    Joaquim

                                                                                    DIY 4 way speakers.
                                                                                    DIY subwoofers.
                                                                                    Zaph ZD3C.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • BobEllis
                                                                                      Super Senior Member
                                                                                      • Dec 2005
                                                                                      • 1609

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by 5th element
                                                                                      ... I too don't understand why TL make their face plates so damned ugly in this day of style.
                                                                                      My guess is keeping the cost down. Nearly twice the faceplate material, machining the face and blind threaded mounting screw holes compared to drilling holes in a piece of 3.5 mm stock. I like pretty, but my engineer side admires the value engineering.

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                                                        • 15261

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        I'm inclined to think you're right about that, Bob. It's hard to argue with a tweeter that measures like that, and retails for about $270.

                                                                                        But then I'm the guy that thinks this 70's retro look for an amplifier chassis is just fine for my next Ncore build...

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                                                                                        the AudioWorx
                                                                                        Natalie P
                                                                                        M8ta
                                                                                        Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                        Modula MT XE
                                                                                        Modula Xtreme
                                                                                        Isiris
                                                                                        Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                        SMJ
                                                                                        Minerva Monitor
                                                                                        Calliope
                                                                                        Ardent D

                                                                                        In Development...
                                                                                        Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                        Obi-Wan
                                                                                        Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                        Modula PWB
                                                                                        Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                        Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                        Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                        Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • BobEllis
                                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                                          • Dec 2005
                                                                                          • 1609

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          I've got 2 completed amps and 2 in work using that style chassis, in 4u and 5u. Obviously not class D.

                                                                                          Comment

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