Scan-Speak D2904/7100 vs D3004/6600

[Audiophile100%]

Do you compared them ?
what are the differences in sound ?
in mean in two ways and three ways

thank you

[5th element]

The sound will be determined by the crossover, the way the tweeter interacts with the cabinet for its diffraction profile and the way the tweeter integrates with the driver it is crossing to with regards to directivity matching.

In terms of which driver is better. Both have very workable frequency responses for a number of different applications but according to Zaph's measurements the D2904/7100 has the better motor. Both have very low distortion but objectively the D2904/7100 takes the crown.

[Audiophile100%]

I am absolutely disagree with you, but thank you anyway

who tried a comparison in sound between these two tweeters ?

[5th element]

You simply cannot compare two tweeters like this unless you have used them in identical designs whilst ensuring that the frequency response of the two designs are within +-0.1dB of one another with polar plots that are identical. If you don't, then it's not the tweeter you are hearing, it's something else.

[JonMarsh]

You simply cannot compare two tweeters like this unless you have used them in identical designs whilst ensuring that the frequency response of the two designs are within +-0.1dB of one another with polar plots that are identical. If you don't, then it's not the tweeter you are hearing, it's something else.

Plus 1

There are situations where one driver or another has an egregious error in linear response that is not readily correctable (physical resonance), but that isn't the case here...

The 6600 may be slightly better suited to two way applications, but the 7100 is lower distortion (if that matters to you)

The 7100 is a fairly typical high end ScanSpeak tweeter- which means relatively high HD2, but nice linear response and gently degrading off axis response.






Thi is my own pair of 7100, as are the 6600 I've previously measured and evaluated.

Sometimes I'm surprised that you come here looking for inputs on one driver or another, but when you receive that feedback, blow them off.

In the long run, I think you might be happier doing what I do, and many others on the forum, which is to pony up and buy the drivers and test and audition them yourself. Then you won't need to trust any one else opinion- you'll have your own first hand experience!

[Audiophile100%]

thank you jon, but did you compared in sound them ?, this is my simple question, i hope you answer me.

[Carl V]

http://www.speakerdesign.net/scan_speak/tweeters/7100/7100_tweeter.html

Interesting measurements & opinions

[Audiophile100%]

thank you carl,
i know that web page, tahnk you.
i'm asking if someone has compared them in sound, not other
does some of you ?

[JonMarsh]

I'm one of those people that believes that IF you measure the right things with a driver, and IF you implement a design correctly, two similar drivers like this (from the same manufacturer, with similar motor designs and rear chambers, and nearly identical diaphragms will sound so similar that the average person can't distinguish between them. I did one design in the early 2000's in which I evaluated (after making separate high pass designs for the crossover a number of different tweeters, including ring radiator, metal diaphragm, cloth dome, etc, and what I found then was that the differences in character or sound could be consistently described by measurements such as off axis response, peaking in the treble due to diffraction (in all cases, the system comparisons had individualized diffraction control), distortion, etc.

If you want to find a ScanSpeak driver of a similar design that DOES sound different from the 6600 and 7100, go look at the 66020 (with it's 16-22 kHz peaking with a soft dome, due to the short waveguide-) or look at the Discovery series D2608-9130, with it's Peerless design heritage, completely different motor and rear chamber configuration, and very different response and distortion profile.








This one certainly does "sound" different from the standard high end ScanSpeak tweeters- and there are good reasons for it. Plus, it's less than half the price of the 6600. Usually there is some kind of correlation to price and performance; in the case of the 66020, I don't think there is the right correlation.

Last, if you're looking at $200 class tweeters, you certainly shouldn't forgot the TL N26A.




It may be too neutral and revealing for some- revealing of shortcomings in source components or amplification, for example- it doesn't sweeten anything up with a dollop of 2nd harmonic distortion. If the latter is what you're looking for in "sound", then the traditional Scanspeak approach may appeal to you. I don't like components that contribute more of their own "sound" than necessary- and IMO, that's a shortcoming of many, but not all, ScanSpeak drivers.

Someday I hope to test the beryllium dome version of the N26.

[---k---]

Sometimes I'm surprised that you come here looking for inputs on one driver or another, but when you receive that feedback, blow them off.

Sometimes, I'm surprised you and Matt expend that much effort in response to explain in amazing detail the answer when all he wants is a yes or no.

[JonMarsh]

what are the differences in sound ?
in mean in two ways and three ways

Hi Ryan,

Unless I'm missing something here, he is asking for the "differences in sound" - I can't see any way to frame that as a yes or no answer. Unless the question is reframed, to something like, "Is there a significant difference in the sound of the 6600 vs. 7100?" Then, it would be easy to answer, as only a subtle one, and only if the rest of your system is operating at the right level where it isn't masked. (for example, I'd take the 6600 with Clarity MR caps over the 7100 with Solen caps. No contest... )

It's not my desire to be snarky here, but to avoid having a seriously busy noise floor discussing stuff at length that doesn't contribute to getting better designs or evaluating in a detailed and holistic manner.

There are a lot of forums with rather poor signal to noise ratios- I'm happy that that mostly isn't the case here, unless one of us goes off on a tangent about something interestingly related or, at the least, possibly interesting if NOT related(photography, wild life in Norway or Antarctica, latest wood working idea or tools, etc.)! :W

[Audiophile100%]

I do not understand why you're mocking me.
I asked a simple question to which I had no answer yet ...
you write : "for example, I'd take the 6600 with Clarity MR caps over the 7100 with Solen caps. No contest... "
are not all genes like you

[Carl V]

thank you carl,
i know that web page, tahnk you.
i'm asking if someone has compared them in sound, not other
does some of you ?

Never at the same time in the same room.

I have returned to the 6600 for a variety of reasons.
Cost , Performance and ease of use.

I am a bit agnostic....IF, you have all your ducks in
a row. And IF you have a well tweaked & symmetric set-up.
You can perhaps hear the differences. But to do so at a statistically
significant level....don't bet the farm.

I am a believer in MONO comparisons & contrasts.
Simply have two speakers & switch back & forth in MONO.
No sound stage, no imaging. Just tone & timbre. You'll need
to adjust for efficiency & sensitivity. Which wont be difficult.

My personal impression is that it's the mid range that will set the bar.
And the spl. levels will elucidate various distortions. what you can hear
at 85 or 95 04 105 dB won't be as easily heard at lower levels.

[JonMarsh]

I do not understand why you're mocking me.
I asked a simple question to which I had no answer yet ...
you write : "for example, I'd take the 6600 with Clarity MR caps over the 7100 with Solen caps. No contest... "
are not all genes like you

I am not mocking you, but just as Matt did, pointing out that the differences are fairly minor, and can be completely swamped out by other factors in the design and implementation, including something as basic as the quality of the capacitors you use in the crossover- something that IS quite relevant to the "sound quality" of reproduction- more so, IMO, than the differences in design and performance between the 6600 and 7100. In 9 times out of ten, other factors in the design execution will likely swamp out the intrinsic differences between those two tweeters, unless the designs are executed to the same high level.

It's also a hint that one might be better off spending $200 on the 6600 instead of nearly $300 on the 7100, and using the money saved on the crossover components.

Here is a link to on of the Clarity MR Cap white papers- these were developed based on independent research done at Cambridge University in England:

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/sites/default/files/claritycapmr_whitepaper.pdf

They have been discussed in the past in other threads- using the Forum search function is very useful, and will often get you more information than just posting a question as you have in this thread. Please try it out. Should help with the tweeters, too.

Another line of capacitors paying similar attention to mechanical aspects of construction and resonance control is the Jantzen Superior Z series. They are less expensive. They're pretty much the minimum cap I recommend these days for builds with high quality tweeters like the Scanspeak.

And, in my opinion, you cannot separate the sound of the tweeter from the sound of the crossover and the component implementation. Making an apples to apples comparison requires that. Frankly, I can think of situation where one might be better served with a high performing sub $100 tweeter, like the 9130 mentioned above, if you use the money saved on the crossover components, as compared with spending all your money on the drivers and using basic film caps.

[Audiophile100%]

I have returned to the 6600 for a variety of reasons.
Cost , Performance and ease of use.

thank you for your explanation, so you prefer 6600 performance over the 7100 ?
why ?
please describe.

[Jonasz]

I do not understand why you're mocking me.
I asked a simple question to which I had no answer yet ...
you write : "for example, I'd take the 6600 with Clarity MR caps over the 7100 with Solen caps. No contest... "
are not all genes like you

None of them, I like the SS9900 best!
Although I have never compared them side by side, I think the 9900 have more "bite", transparency and a more natural sound, less hifi if you will. IMHO

[5th element]

thank you for your explanation, so you prefer 6600 performance over the 7100 ?
why ?
please describe.

He explained why.

Cost , Performance and ease of use.

Performance - it's one of the best measuring soft dome tweeters out there. Although the 7100 has slightly better HD performance.
Ease of use - it has a nice flat and extended frequency response. It extends slightly lower than the 7100 making it fit more easily into a variety of designs.
Cost - It's cheaper than the 7100 by quite a margin, some $85.

[Carl V]

He explained why.



Performance - it's one of the best measuring soft dome tweeters out there. Although the 7100 has slightly better HD performance.
Ease of use - it has a nice flat and extended frequency response. It extends slightly lower than the 7100 making it fit more easily into a variety of designs.
Cost - It's cheaper than the 7100 by quite a margin, some $85.

That pretty much sums it up.

over the years...we are all guilty of Driver of the month/year
syndrome. When there are bigger fish to fry....forest & trees
perspective. imho.

[craigk]

That pretty much sums it up.

over the years...we are all guilty of Driver of the month/year
syndrome. When there are bigger fish to fry....forest & trees
perspective. imho.

this is a troll. he has posted this question on every forum on the internet. ignore him and he will go away.

[Audiophile100%]

this is a troll. he has posted this question on every forum on the internet. ignore him and he will go away.

and you ?, who are you ?, from where you left off?
what right do you have to say that I'm a troll?
do you know what is respect ?, i thnk no!
Who prevents me from writing on other forums?, is forbidden by law?
Remind : i have written on other forums because, about my point of view, I had no answers regarding my question ?, is a crime?
It is more paradoxical what you say!, probably you are GOD, yes ?

[Face]

and you ?, who are you ?, from where you left off?
what right do you have to say that I'm a troll?
do you know what is respect ?, i thnk no!
Who prevents me from writing on other forums?, is forbidden by law?
Remind : i have written on other forums because, about my point of view, I had no answers regarding my question ?, is a crime?
It is more paradoxical what you say!, probably you are GOD, yes ?

Or it's because you haven't received the response that you want to hear.

[Audiophile100%]

you are completely in error.
not received answer about my request, symply, so i asked to other forums, what's the problem ? :
I asked if someone had compared them in the same condition, if no one has done this, it's best not respond.
thanks

[5th element]

We have given you useful responses. It's as Face said people are not giving you the kind of answer you want.

If you want a purely subjective and largely meaningless response then perhaps email Troels. He has used both drivers in different designs but he does warn about trying to describe the sound of loudspeakers, in subjective terms, at the end of many of his builds mainly because it's difficult to do so as one term can mean something completely different to someone else.

[JonMarsh]

OK, folks, let's not go down this path with the Troll label. I think to understand what's going on here requires a little more subtle look at things- in this case, I need to put on the "hat" of my formal education, in psychology.

Keep in mind I'm only guessing here, to a degree, or indulging in what one might call informed speculation, but I think it's better than using labels on people.

Audiophile100% appears to be a very private person, and hasn't told us much about where he's coming from (figuratively or literally), and I think he's approaching the idea of DIY speakers from a very different angle than most of us here. His chosen moniker should be the clue to us. So, reading between the lines, and observing his interaction on this forum (I haven't tracked him anywhere else- I rarely have time to go to other forums), these are my best guesses of what's going on:

• Audiophile100% is not a native English speaker. His fluency, spoken or reading, may be much lower than we might expect, and it's likely, based on the lack of interaction from him on any of the technical points or issues we've brought up, that he has trouble following the discussion, due to language and possibly other issues. (I know a lot of American's that have difficultly with reading, much less writing, and even at work I find marketing managers and others are sometime put off with my communications with them because there is simply too much information for them to absorb- it's as if I'm on hardwired Gigabit Ethernet and they're on an old WiFi B router.) Some things just don't really translate well to a two or three line "Executive Summary" (which for me, has almost become synonymous with "simpleton's summary").
• With his chosen moniker of "Audiophile100%", he has given us a fair amount of information about his orientation for approaching this hobby or endeavor- that information might be construed by some in a negative sense, because of the limitations in purely subjective evaluation because, frankly, it's hard to compare how we hear and react to music, and most people don't listen to enough live (non amplified) music and havn't worked in a studio where you're always comparing what you hear in a sound booth versus what is coming over the mics and into the headphones and monitors. Plus, if you hear something you like, or something you don't like, you have to have enough background technical information to have some clue as to the why's and wherefore's; otherwise replicating it may be a moot point. Regarding experience, everyone here besides me that has recorded live classic music (besides me) including symphonic scale works, please raise your hands? (I brought this up in a recent meeting with IR Class D guys, regarding their subjective evaluation of gear and actual experience, and ended up getting some embarrassed and dirty looks from them- they didn't expect someone like me working at Infineon).
• Ultimately it IS a free country, if not a free world, and we are all free to pick what we like, however flavored that may be from reality; but if we aspire to something with a more objective basis, then we either have to be able to measure carefully and skillfully, OR, we must have the right subjective experience background.
• If you don't have some kind of technical education and if you have weak language skills, discussing technical issues in depth is likely not pleasing or feasible. So, Audiophile100% by his moniker seems to be advertising (to me) that he is only interested in subjective feedback. That frustrates us, because we're aware of the limitations and likelihood of error and mistaken attribution of positive or negative characteristics that is possible with that approach.
• For must of us, who combine varying levels of technical knowledge with some theory background and personal experience building and objectively and subjectivitly evaulating systems, this seems one sided becuase as Matt, Face, and others have pointed out (me included) you can't make an intelligent (fact based) subjective evaluation that attributes the correct information without misleading subcontext to the issue at hand, and in fact, we find it frustrating when someone doesn't seem to be prepared or willing to start to learn those distinctions. Because absent the technical context, the subjective feedback is pretty much in the noise floor, based on our experience, IF YOUR INTENT IS TO BUILD YOUR OWN SPEAKERS, AND YOU CHOSE TO IGNORE THE VERY REAL INFLUENCE OF OTHER FACTORS (crossover, etc).
• There is a lot of collective experience on this board- with a past moderator who has known me a long time, we figured out that as of 2008 I'd designed and built over 50 loudspeaker systems since the early 70's. I've done a few since then, too! :W I'm sure there are some amazing stories behind some of our other members, too.
• Now, if your'e just perusing and selecting commercial equipment, there's no reason not to work purely subjectively, as you have no oppportunity to influence the design. You pays your money, and you takes your chances.... you can get some good hints from the Stereophile reviews, but personally I don't think John Atkinson's speaker measuring approach is as good as many DIY'ers, and is not in the same class as Richard Heyser from Audio Magazine in the old days. But he's about the only commercial magazine example we have doing that...
• There was/is a post on PE Tech Talk, about "AudioPhoolery", and one of the posters said that I must be pretty suspect in my technical knowledge because I thought fancy capacitors had some merit. Now, I'm proud to wear the badge of being criticized on TechTalk, whatever the reason, but as general as that statement was, and considering that this person has probably never read the independent research at Cambridge University in England upon which the MR product development is done, and of COURSE they haven't bought any and compared them for themselves, because they're too smart and too poor to waste their time that way... thing is, it's the technical background behind what the research discovered in both the subjective listening tests AND the measured behavior of the caps that led to the MR cap product development- and this is how I think the best of all new development goes. You really can't work with just one or the other, and you certainly can't ignore the technical.

I wish Audiophile100% the best of luck in achieving his dreams; I hope he got answers that were more useful or emotionally pleasing to him on the other forums. However, rooted as we are here in the technical DIY ethos, which I think is an early forbear to what is now called the maker movement (have millennial friends that are in to that, and are rather impressed by the DIY speaker thing), if he comes here in the future, he's going to keep getting reality based feedback based on understanding as much of the technical issues and not oversimplifying something just of the sake of audiophile prose.

There are a lot of anti-audiophile people out there whom I think are fools; but conversely, there are a lot of audiophiles out there who are fools... it seems to be part and parcel of the human condition, to have this dichotomy. Understanding things in depth is work- hard work. Dig in and learn, or stick your head in the sand. Everyone has a choice....

~Jon Mark Hancock
Senior Principal Engineer Power Systems

[dar47]

Jon laughed out load, the best part of this is the " executive summary" as you know my professional pain. Unfortunately people don't get that we are all life long learners whether want to be our not.

[5th element]

Wow Jon that was some response!

I am pretty much anti-audiophile, but respect the decision of others to spend more money than I would say is necessary on certain things. If they have the money then why not? If it pleases them, then why not? I'd simply rather spend my money elsewhere. Besides I don't use caps in my loudspeakers I go active and directly connect my tweeters to the rather well protected output stage of the amplifiers (no risk of turn on thump or DC frying the tweeters!).

[JonMarsh]

In every case, it's what works for you that counts- in the end, your system and music should put a smile on your face, whatever that takes! :B

[Scottg]

Hmm, Devil's Advocate here..


Questions:

Do you compared them ?
what are the differences in sound ?
in mean in two ways and three ways

Ex. Responses:

1. Yes,
2. Negligible subjective difference when corrected,
3. Negligible subjective difference when corrected and used in both 2-ways and 3-ways.


Basically forget about objective advice, or indeed any truly helpful advice - it was never asked for.

[JonMarsh]

Hmm, Devil's Advocate here..



Basically forget about objective advice, or indeed any truly helpful advice - it was never asked for.

I think you have nailed it completely, and succinctly. Unfortunately, the engineer that I am in my day job try to provide helpful advice and sufficient qualification to evaluate the usefulness of that advice, and in my moderator role I have a biased desire to keep the signal to noise ratio as high as possible here- but many people don't participate on forums for the "signal", they participate just to participate. And that is their right- as long as normal forum etiquette is followed.