My Wavecor Ardent with center build

[benthe8track]

Yeah as long as you aren't taking them off a lot screws should work just fine. Our gasket was also pretty thick (it was the only foam I had on hand) so you probably won't have to tighten them down as hard either.

[TEK]

Hi

I oversized the vaffel a bit as described in the drawings.
I have been wondering about how to adjust the width of the baffel to exactly matc the cabinet widt.
The baffel is 4x18mm = 72mm. I have neither router bits or saw blade that may cut that size.

To handle this I installed some biscuits on one side of the cabinet. This caused the baffel (just the inner layer) to fit very firm onto the cabinet.
The 4 layers of the baffel itself is fit together using wood plugs in drilled holes.

Using this technic I can assemble and disassamble the baffel as needed.
I put the first baffel layer on the cabinet and used a flush trim bit to fit it to the cabinet.
Then I stacked other panels on top of the first and flush trimmed each layer to fit.

[TEK]

Hi
It seems like I have some masochist tendencies, as I'm going for raw burl veneer as veneer for these... :banghead:
The plan is to use contact cement (gel type) when applying the veneer.
On top of the veneer there will be several layers of shiny clear coat and at last some layer of satin clear coat

The question to you more experience builders is:
- what kind of surface preparation (except sanding flat) is needed to ensure a good result in many years to come? :duh:
- especially, how can I ensure no telegraphing on the side and top of the baffel? :duh:


Edit:
Hmm, just noticed that joethewoodworker states that "Contact cement is only suitable for backed veneers" and "Heat Lock and other iron-on glues can not be used with a veneering project that has seams.", meaning that using pressure is the only viable option.
I could build a vacum press, but I'm not sure if that is possible to use for a prebuild speaker box - any toughts on that are welcome.
The most realistic choice seems to be to use regular clamp pressure...
(the original questions are still in the open)

[knowledgebass]

I made a press for myself and used car jacks to help spread the pressure across the centre.

IMG_1965 by Knowledge Bass, on Flickr

[TEK]

Thats an impressive press :-)
I think that the pressure part is doable as long as I have the pation to do one panel of the time.
I'm mostly worried about two issues:
- telegraphing, especially on the top and sides of the baffel where we have the vertical sides of the ply meeting the flat laid ply panels
- that I don't do the right groundwork for the clear coating and that "something bad" will happend after some time, for example that the clear coat will crack

[dar47]

Just add 1/8" hard board to the sides and top to stop telegraphing. Ben's showing epoxy skim coat over cab with 1/8" hard board sides and top.



Best I found for grills was some 3/8" HDF (hard version of MDF). Made some grills on another build out of it and they where strong and straight.

[TEK]

Yes, I was thinking about doing that. It would be a safe solution I expect. I kindof hoped it would not be nessesarly to go that far. If I do that I will be using 3mm MDF I think (easier available).
As I seem to have to use wood/veneer glue I don't think epoxing the cabinet is a viable solution for me.

[TEK]

Have been sleeping on this and I think I have come to a conclution (please let me know if someone with a little bit of experience think that this will not work):
- add 3mm of MDF to the top and sides as shown above
- iron on the raw veneer (glue on both side first, let dry, iron on)
- spray paint multiple layers of clear coat
I think this seems to be the safe way to go.

[knowledgebass]

What glue are you planning to use?
Also consider doing grain filling before your clear coat.

[TEK]

I'm planning on using casco indoor. I think it makes a solid bound (if you try to break apart two pices glued with that, the wood gives before the glue).
I'm planning on using some sandy filler ore something as you suggest, but I have not found the right product yet.

[benthe8track]

I don't think you can iron on raw walnut burl. The backs of mine are raw and I used home made press like knowledgebass.
The glue you want to use is that Better Bond Dark cold press stuff from veneersupplies.com.

[TEK]

Do you know if there is any particulat reason that burl can not be ironed on?
There are a lot of different meanings on the topic of iron-on... Anything especially you are thinking about that apply specially to burl?
When it comes to glue, I'll stick with the one I have. I dont have any resonable place to source the glue from veneersupply, and white woodglue seems to be recommended from several sources (both for coldpress and iron-on).

But if I first are to do coldpress, I really wonder if it is possible to use vacum press on a assembled speaker cabiney. Any toughts about that?

[benthe8track]

Because it's really delicate and thin. You may be able to do it, I looked at a lot of options and didn't think it would work (but that doesn't mean it wont). Your glue will hold fine but consider the color because you will get some bleed through. Burl is very porous.
I looked into vacuum bagging mine as well and it's typically meant for flat panels--it may crush an assembled box. Plus would be tough to align the pieces for the facets. For what it's worth Avalon uses all raw veneer but they apply it in a big hydraulic cold press fixture.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, veneering is definitely a challenge for the DIY user- I did the first Ardents with Maple also, and effectively did home made cold press. I looked at some burl veneer, and it just wasn't feasible for that process.

[TEK]

Thanks!
I see that I'm not the first to wonder about this ;-)
I'll probably end up using clamps and pressure.
Btw: there is a link to a factory tour at avalon in my first post (I gather relevant info there). Their press is shown there - it's kindof cool.
The glue is see-trough when dried - so I think it should work out OK colorvise.

I think I will make a test pice and clue on veneer as well as clear coat before doing the speakers...

[TEK]

How much room do you leave between the wood and the drivers?
My initial thought is "as little as possible", but as I think about it I start to think that is not too smart and that there actually could be some distance, for example 1 mm.
What do you experience builders do?

[fish fingers]

Really nice work and design.
I tend to leave quite alot of room above the tweeter to avoid any sharp edge diffraction, and I like a bit of space between the mid and bass, if the x/o point allows, but all builds are different
I'll post a 'design in progress' soon and you can critique me back.


Jeez, the price for the x/o parts made me skip a beat. But I'm guessing its a fraction of the total build cost.

[Renron]

Tek,
1 mm spacing around the driver diameter is 1/2mm radius. I use the radius because film build up thickness is the concerning factor. Lacquer film thickness when dry is about 2 -4 thousandths of an inch, or .002 - .004 ". Using this as a guide 1/2mm is about 19 thousandths of an inch, or .019" so you can have 4 thick coats of .004 Lacquer 4x.004 = .016" of coating and still have .003" of clearance (radius) with the edge of the driver in the hole.
Average human hair is .1mm thick or about 4 thousandths of an inch. Pretty tight tolerances, even for Doc!
Paint the interior edge of the driver hole black before spraying the finish, it will hide any extra size difference. I use a sharpie permanent marker too.

Fish Fingers, There are several "sticker shocks" with this build as I too am finding out. Driver / XO components / Bamboo ply and then the cost of nice veneer. (faint)
But, keep in mind, we are making furniture that sounds fantastic.
I built a crib for my granddaughter that was >$800 and it didn't even make any sounds!
Ron

[TEK]

Hi

Thanks for the replies. I have been working quite a bit to prepare the cutout for the mid (the Accuton).
I'm making a template first, and then I test it on some scarp to see if I have got it right. It took some attemt to get the wanted result...

Attemt #1:
Trying to make a template using a copy bit. The template was made by adding pieces of mdf in the right size (measured and draw on) and clamp it down, and then use the router to cut out the template.
That did not go to well, the cut was not accurate.


Attemt #2:
Trying to make a template using a guide brushing. That was a bit of a challenge as you have to take into account the extra measurement to add, first to account for the extra space when creating the template. Then for the extra space when using the template.
That did not go to well either. Still the test cut was not accurate.


Attemt #3:
Went back to the copy bit. This time using the driver itself as a template to add the scrap mdf and bolting that fast. Used the plunge router to cut out the template.
Testet on a new scrap piece, still the test cut was not accurate. Probably because the clamps or something shifted when I made the template.


Attemt #4:
I still went with the copy bit, and I continued to use the driver as a template. But this time I used double sided tape to fasten the pieces that made the template.
Then I drilled a hole in the template and used the router table with a copy bit to route out the template.
The I tested on a scrap piece - again. And finally I think I got a nice and tight fit. I also tested to attach the mid in the hole to see if the depth of the whole (5mm) was correct. I think it will be perfect when the veneer has been added.

[TEK]

And success...




The picture is just from a test piece, As you can see this is a pretty tight fit. On the picture there seems to be a bit of space over the upper left side of the tweeter. I wonder if some shadows or something is playing us a trick. It does not look that much in real life.
After this I have extended the template about 1/2mm as it was a bit to tight on one side.

I'm planning on doing all the element holes in one go.
But I have to make a circle cutting jig first, and to do some testing there as well. Hopefully I will get all the driver holes finished this weekend, so that I can start gluing and cutting the baffel :T

[BobEllis]

Braver man than me. I'm using one of these to make my template and test fits. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...-724-mid-each/ Drivers aren't going near the router.

[dar47]

Ah making progress, this wood working stuff is fun. I needed 3 shots with the template guide to get it right. :T

To all those worried for cost, everyone who has heard my set are amazed!

[TEK]

Braver man than me. I'm using one of these to make my template and test fits. https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.co...-724-mid-each/ Drivers aren't going near the router.

Cool, didn't know about those.
But don't worry, my drivers are not anywhere near the router.
I use the driver just to measure where the template for the template is to be placed. Then the driver goes back to it's box (in a different room) before any cutting is done :-)

[Renron]

Tek,
Thank you so very much for showing us ALL of your patterning attempts. We tend to learn more from our mistakes, than from our successes.
Your #4 template looks great to my old eyes. No one will ever look at our speakers as closely as we do when building them, we are our own worst critics.
Good job.
Ron

[TEK]

Some progress...

As mentioned earlier on I have not glued my baffle together. Instead I have used "guide pins" to hold the 4 BB plates in position when I'm working with them, as shown on this picture:



I did this to be able to be user that I would reach all layers to cut out the cutout for the drivers. But I also did it for one more reason. In case I did a wrong cut i would not have to throw away the whole baffle - but would be able to just replace one piece of the baffle.
And guess what - I found out the hard way that the half of 224 mm is not 122mm... No idea what went on in my head - but I adjusted my circle jig to half of 224mm and got that to be 122mm and just cut away. Talk about disappointment when I should testfit the driver and found that the size of the cutout was WAY off :E
At that time I was very happy that I had not glued up the baffle yet. Including wondering how to solve it I guess it took me a small hour to get back on track by replacing the piece of the baffle that I had missed on :T

Talking about circle jig. I made me a circle jig that I must say worked really great. It can cut circles from 3cm radius and up, and it is really easy to measure exact cut size as shown on the last picture.

[TEK]

I'm now done with the cutout for the drivers.
Took some time - but I think I got a good result.

I used the following methods:
- For the Wavecor drivers and the tweeter I used my circle jig. First a test cut (yes, I do learn from my mistakes :roll, check that the driver fits, then cut the speaker. All drivers of the same size in one go. First one "layer", then removed that layer of the baffle and did another layer until all 4 layers was done.
- For the mid-tone (the Accuton) I used the templates I made earlier on. The driver recess I did from the top with the plunge router. The driver hole I did with the table router and the template. After the first two layers that I had a template for I did the last two layers on freehand using the plunge router and a thin bit. That worked nicely.

I also used the table router to roundover the edge between the different sized driver cutouts (the inner two BB layer has larger holes than the outer two to allow the drivers to breath)







Oh, one last thing. As my template bit is to larger (16,7mm) for the corners of the accuton mid I had to figure out a way of making the corner radius a bit smaller after using the template.
On the test piece I used a knife and sandpaper. A lot of work and just a half good result.
Now I changed to a bit that was right sized (12mm), lovered the plunge router to the right depth and adjusted the corners using that on freehand. That gave a nice result with little effort.

[TEK]

Last bit of experience gained - dough I kindof knew this from before.

When cutting the 3rd layer of the baffel I noticed that it was a little bit skewed. I went back to check what the reason might be and I found it.
With a baffel as deep as this you should use something to help you drill the guide holes in a 90 degree angel. I did not have that and and the 3rd layer that shows, ref. picture 2 below. The effect of this is shown on picture 1 below (there is a edge between layer 2 and 3 - might be a bit hard to see on the picture)
Not a problem, but I would of course preferred it to be perfect...

[dar47]

Ya, that would be even harder to get that alinement right if you measured and cut each hole independently. First thing I did was to stack the CNC cuts to see how good they were. No problem though mostly inner cosmetics. Great progress your almost done the tough stuff.:T

[Renron]

Tek,
Only you will know of the offset, it looks great to me! Your hired!
Thanks for the updates. Keep up the good work.
Ron

[---k---]

Yeah. My builds got some of that too.

[Steve Manning]

Same here on my projects ...... I have found using one of these helps though. http://www.rockler.com/portable-drill-guide

[TEK]

That is something I have been thinking about.
I actually was about to get a drill press, but then I figured out that it would not be able/large enough to handle big speakers.
I'll guess will get something like that before my next build

[Steve Manning]

That is something I have been thinking about.
I actually was about to get a drill press, but then I figured out that it would not be able/large enough to handle big speakers.
I'll guess will get something like that before my next build

You right it would need to be a large drill press, especially if the baffle gets wide, which is where something like a portable guide comes in handy. Not as accurate as a drill press, but better than free hand. The build is looking great though.

[bigjohn]

That is something I have been thinking about.
I actually was about to get a drill press, but then I figured out that it would not be able/large enough to handle big speakers.
I'll guess will get something like that before my next build

I was having this same problem, and in looking for a drill press I came across one of these on my local craigslist and it has worked quite nicely:



For just doing one or two holes I use one of these:

http://www.rockler.com/big-gator-v-drill-guide-standard

[Renron]

BigJohn,
That Gator block is a good idea, easy enough for us diy'ers to make one ourselves. Quick and cheap. Free really, hardwood scrap and a properly set up drill press.
Tek,
Thanks for posting updated pictures.
Ron

[TEK]

Great idea.
Then I can by a drill press because I need it to make the guide so that I dont need to use money on the guide :T
I like how you think my friend :P
(perfect excuse if the mrs ask, and a perfectly valid resoning for a tool-wanting diy'er)

[TEK]

Gluing the baffels...

[TEK]

Hmm, just learned that 40 degree on the saw means 50 degree the other way...
Seems like my ardent will be a bit more extreme than the drawing indicates...
:banghead:

[TEK]

I will NOT redo the baffel, so my will have 50 degrees instead of 40!

[Horio]

Tek,

Great build thread and I'm enjoying following your progress. So did you cut your facets with the track saw? I'd be curious know a bit more about how you made you facet cuts. I don't have room for a table saw at the moment, but seeing how accurate the Festool saw can cut I'm considering buying on for myself.

[Renron]

Other than looks, it shouldn't make much difference.
Ron

[benthe8track]

I like the 50 degree facets! I wanted to do something a bit more extreme like that at one point we just didn't have enough baffle. It's going to look great

[TEK]

Thanks for the kind words.
benthe8track, if you look closely on the posted image you can see that the baffel actually is to thin to handle the cut. The solution was to allow the cut to remove a bit of the box as well.
I have decided that it will not influence the box strength!

Horio:
For now I have done 3 of the 10 cut I will have to do so I have some left to do ;-)
This is how I did it:
I marked up all the cuts first.
Then I'm using both the baffels. The one to cut into of course, and the second one as support for the guide.
In the first picture, it is the topmost baffel that is beeing cutted.
I then use the festool saw and the guide to do the cut.
The saw blade is not large enough to do the whole cut. Because of that I have to use a japanese saw to finish the cut.
Last I sand over the cut to get away any marks after the handsaw.
I have some picture to show the process

[dar47]

More than 1 way to skin a cat.:T

What's your plan for all that end grain before veneer?

[TEK]

The problem with the endgrain is telegraphing where the sides and top of the cabinet meet the endgrain. I plan on adding a layer of 3mm mdf on the sides and the top to avoid the problem.