My Wavecor Ardent with center build

[TEK]

OK - so the bits are starting to fall into place, and I think it's time to start planning my Ardent build:T
Inspiration thread: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...sign-and-Build

It's in good time, if you look back I actually started planning my first Avalon clone build a loooong time ago (as commented in the thread https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?3430-M8ta-Fun-or-Work-) from 2003)

I had a chat with the missis today, showed her the Ardents, as well as Jons Bonnie and Clyde (to show how Bamboo speakers looks).

She had decided that I will go down the same route that Jon followed and have Bamboo as the final finish - no veneering.
Of course, if I mess up (and that's quite likely), I can still apply veneer afterwards

I don't think it will take me another 10 years++ to get the actual build started and completed - but don't expect any lightning speed on this build. I'm in it for the fun of it and stuff will happened when it happens 8).

Notes to self:
Reference thread: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...ized-the-Dream
Info on building the cabinet: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...t-Builds/page9
Veneer picture:



Veneer cut plan: Link not available
Veneering tip: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...l=1#post587754
Sanding disc recommendation: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...l=1#post587365
Sanding discs: http://www.norbond.no/abranet-hd-ron...496-c-244.aspx
Crossover layout: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...l=1#post596109
Lot of veneering tip (this is about dealing with defects): http://www.joewoodworker.com/veneeri...eerdefects.htm
Jons's paint receipt: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showth...l=1#post588361
Very good article on painting (for boats): http://www.batmagasinet.no/bladarkiv...kke-skal-lakke (in norwegian)
Crossover component placement guide: https://www.htguide.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=24172&d=1433901375

[TEK]

So, the first question/discussion point.

I see 3 likely options for this build (due to the cutting of the angels on the baffel - the baffel is bamboo only in all cases)
1. Go all in with bamboo and use only bamboo
2. Use bamboo for the outher layer and use baltic birch ply for a inner layer and braces
3. Use bamboo for the outer layer and use baltic birch ply and MDF for inner layer and braces
4. Use bamboo for the outer layer and use MDF for inner layer and all the braces

As the whole outside will be bamboo this will have to be a different solution than selected in the http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...sign-and-Build thread. I'm not 100% sure what they ended up doing. Looks like bamboo and ply in the baffel outer walls and internal bracings, and a inner layer of MDF?

1. will be somewhat more expensive, so I will only go that way if it is expected to give some real gains.
3 and 4. MDF is a drag to work with, so I will only use that if that is expected to give some real gains.
So it seems that my current preferences is to go with a sandwich construction of bamboo and baltic birch plywood, and baltic birch plywood for inner braces. Any input regarding this is appriciated!

[benthe8track]

At Jon's advice we removed the 2 layers of MDF from the baffle and ended up with this:



Red=BB
Green=Bamboo
Grey=18mm BB with 3/8" mdf on the inside

All bamboo would be quite a bit more expensive but it would look great. When we were in the warehouse lots of people commented how great bamboo looks and it's a shame to cover it up with veneer. In terms of a mechanical advantage I have my doubts, I did a lot of reading and couldn't even find a straight answer for bamboo modulus. Even called PhD. materials guy and it came down to having to build a bunch then test.

[dar47]

Ben's drawing is a little off, our plan was to do,
1. (2- 3/4" layers, inner and outer) for a 1-1/2" bamboo outer baffle, 2-18mm layers of BB for the inner baffle.

2. Outer sides, back and top are 18mm BB and the inner sides, top and back were to be 1/2" MDF, (composite damping). That said I screwed up and the MDF ended up being 3/8" MDF.

3. All the bracing, mid bottom and mid back were 18mm BB.

4.The tops, and side were covered with 1/8" hardboard to limit seams and minimize any future telegraphing of the seams showing through the veneer and finish. Other then the facets there are only 1/8" seams on the outside of the cabs. I have done builds in the past with perfectly flat sanded joints that show the joints caused by the veneer and finish shrinking ever so slightly with time.

If you have the coin you could go all Bamboo but I don't see a benefit of bracing with it. Some people have said unless you take great care with damping, an all Bamboo cab can cause ringing. I like a composite construction which you could do without any MDF just Bamboo outer and BB inner. I think the Bamboo outer baffle gives a hard lunching point for the drivers and the BB is strong and dimensionally stable for the rest of the cabinet. Our approach is still way ahead of Avalon's materials, at least structurally and the MDF provides some damping and is more then capable of locking in the bracing with the dadoes applied.

That said it's your build and your choice, have fun and as Jon said I think these are going to be something special.

[TEK]

Thanks for the input.

I think I will follow your construction pretty close.
I will go for bamboo as the outer layer, ply for braces and MDF as a inner layer. I assume that should give the following advances:
- Solid and sturdy bracing
- The wanted outside look and no veneering
- No ringing as the inner layer is MDF
- The cheapest solution given the wanted Bamboo finish

Will have too look into excact dimensions based on sheet sizes available from my sources.

[TEK]

Dar47, I'm having a bit of a struggle convertion between the different measuring systems, but from what I find out, your walls (not considering the baffel) is approximate 33mm thick.
So I guess that using a bamboo and MDF sandwitch, I could go for 30mm. If I'm keeping the outer dimension - which I assume I should to be able to reuse the same crossover, I will get a little more internal volume.

Will that be something I should worrie about?

As a first tought, I can go with 2cm bamboo and 1cm MDF, or I could go for 1cm bamboo and 2cm MDF.
I think that 2cm bamboo will favour stifness while 2cm MDF will favour damping. What is most important?

As a second thought I will go with 2cm bamboo. This is because I want good and solid joints, and in that regard I think the strenght of the cabinet should come from the bamboo. The sides will be joined using dado joints. These will be easier and stronger when made in 2cm bamboo than in 1cm. IMO MDF is not that strong when it comes to joints.

If someone have other thougs, especially on MDF vs plywood, please speak up :-)

[dar47]

We will have to publish some dimensioned drawings not just the 3D model, that you can adjust your material thicknesses to, it does get trickery when materials and driver specs are both metric and imperial. Maybe we can dimension the critical ones in both. I'll try to get the model off of Ben to start making a drawing set.

[benthe8track]

Yeah I'll get the dxf files to my dad who can make some drawings with all of the pertinent info. Sketchup looks pretty limited in what formats it can take.

[TEK]

We will have to publish some dimensioned drawings not just the 3D model, that you can adjust your material thicknesses to, it does get trickery when materials and driver specs are both metric and imperial. Maybe we can dimension the critical ones in both. I'll try to get the model off of Ben to start making a drawing set.

That would be great Appriciate it very much!

I will redraw the cabinet in skethup to get the drawings right for the wood sizes that I'm able to source, and to consider the joining that will be a little different.
It's a drag to switch between the measurement systems, but it's no problem to recalculate when making updated drawings (a different issue when making the cuts), so there is no need for you to convert the measurements for me. Dont know what others might need dogh.

[TEK]

Hi
This have been on hold for a long time now... Time to get started - but this will be slow work.

After a lot of checking of suppliers I have dropped bamboo. It's just to hard/expensive to source from my location.
I will use BB and MDF as material, and veener
For now I will also hold off with the center and focus on the mains.
This thread have now come up -

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?42506-Official-Wavecor-Ardent-Reference-Thread-How-we-realized-the-Dream

- and I think I will use the drawings published there as they are for my build.

Warecor woofer is in process of beeing ordered from Solen. They currently have 8 weeks back order, so this will take some time - but so will this build, so thats OK...

[shootinnutz]

TEK, were you able to get the 01 or the 02 version wavecor's' from solen. I read that the sensitivity is a little lower on the 02

[dar47]

TEK, if bamboo is to hard to source another cheaper (more labor intensive) method to come up with the rigid 2 outer baffles is too buy lengths of readily available 3/4" x 1 1/2" s4s molding stock. epoxy on edge and plane both sides. This can be Poplar, Aspen or what ever hard wood that is cheap, just don't use a porous hard wood like oak. if you don't have a top planer make a jig to use your router.

After both sides of the created panels are planed you can cover 1 or both sides with 1/8" hard board to get the required baffle thickness. You can go all out and do both inner and outer baffles if you like. I used this method for my center channel build and some Troel's Super Mini's I did for the bother inlaw.



Here you can see the edge epoxied veneer cover baffle. Very rigid and stable.



Image not available

There are many different planing sled jig designs just Google "router plane". Jon already said you can buy the 02 Wavecor's if the 01's are gone. For the guys stuck with a few 01's I would see if Solen would exchange for the 02's.

[TEK]

TEK, were you able to get the 01 or the 02 version wavecor's' from solen. I read that the sensitivity is a little lower on the 02

I'm getting 01.
As mentioned in this thread:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?42506-Official-Wavecor-Ardent-Reference-Thread-How-we-realized-the-Dream

I think that there seems to be several differences between 01 and 02, and I do not want to have to refit or adjust the crossover. I do not know in how much detail Jon have looked into this, but I do not want to intoduse the uncertenty into my project.

Also, the 01 is discounted by 100 cad at solen - I think thats a plus.
The 8 week lead time is no big problem for me. I assume I will not be ready to fit the elements in the box before that anyway.

Edit: I see in a different post that solen tells these are no longer available.
That respons was given 12/03, the same date I was told there are 8 week leed time on these. So, different info there - we'll se what they responds to my attemt to actually order them.

[TEK]

For hardwood I can source american white ash and american white oak.
Would not nessesarly call it "cheap" but as the are available locally absolutly not to pricly.
But I do wonder if not 4 layers of combined MDF and BB would be enough, that baffel is pritty thick - is it not?

[Carl V]

just an FYI: white oak is usually significantly less porous than Red Oak.
White oak has been used for Boats and marine applications. American ASH
is very Similar to European ASH and it too has generally similar traits to WHITE
OAK.

4 layers of MDF & BB (apply ply, high quality variations) is certainly up to the task.
At this level it's perceived preferences. My early forays into speaker building used
the typical NORTHCREEK design i.e., 3/4" MDF & 3/4" BB. With good BB bracing. I haven't
strayed too far. experimented occasionally....but to be honest I could never
swear to any audible advantages, beyond MDF & BB with asymmetrical Bracing &
dampening material inside.

Good luck.

[TEK]

just an FYI: white oak is usually significantly less porous than Red Oak.
White oak has been used for Boats and marine applications. American ASH
is very Similar to European ASH and it too has generally similar traits to WHITE
OAK.

4 layers of MDF & BB (apply ply, high quality variations) is certainly up to the task.
At this level it's perceived preferences. My early forays into speaker building used
the typical NORTHCREEK design i.e., 3/4" MDF & 3/4" BB. With good BB bracing. I haven't
strayed too far. experimented occasionally....but to be honest I could never
swear to any audible advantages, beyond MDF & BB with asymmetrical Bracing &
dampening material inside.

Good luck.

Thanks for the input. I have worked a bit with american white oak (used it for my router lift) - and it's a very nice and hard wood to work with. Also lovely to carve figures from.
It would be a really interesting experience to build a sonus faber lookalike using white oak - I think that might have worked.

http://www.hifi-notes.com/images/amati3.jpg

But that would be a totally different ballgame compared to the Ardent build, and not what I'm aming for now...

I think that MDF and BB for the box, and BB for inner bracing will have to do. Maybe, if I can get my hands on it I will use led for the mid-tone chamber as Jon did, or something else to ensure that the higher frequences is damped

[Carl V]

Maybe, if I can get my hands on it I will use led for the mid-tone chamber as Jon did,

In Europe...good luck with that.8O RoHS compliance is strict I understand. So getting your hands on
some loose Lead Sheets maybe Clandestine. There are other ways to tone done the walls. Good luck.

[TEK]

Darn, just got same notice from Solen.
No more -01 available, and 314 cad for 02...
Kindof expected, but still a downer.

In the meantime I have built a bike to my oldest one ;-)

[BobEllis]

Teach your children the joy of bicycles (or speaker building) and the will never have money for drugs.

[kevinm]

Teach your children the joy of bicycles (or speaker building) and the will never have money for drugs.

My parents did that with motorcycles (Motocross in my case) - it worked extremely well!

[TEK]

From the Ardent thread:

Wavecor describes the difference here:

http://www.wavecor.com/html/sw223bd01.html

Spec's:

http://www.wavecor.com/html/sw223bd01_oem_only.html

http://www.wavecor.com/html/sw223bd02_03.html

I do not know mutch about this, but it does not seems to me that 02 will be a drop-in-replacement for 01.
Sensitivity: 85 vs. 83
Sd: 214 vs. 206
Fs: 26 vs 24
Qms: 14,4 vs 10,7
...

As mentioned earlier in this thread, the 01 is no longer available from Solen.
Jon, based on the parameters for the wavecor 02, do you think that the 02 is a "drop-in-replacement" for 01?
If it is, like I suspect, not a drop-in replacement - how should a novice with no experience with crossover design proceed?

[TEK]

I'm about to order some parts - and thought that I should add damping material to the order.
Anyone that could give me a recommendation of what to buy?

A good set of choises here:

https://www.hifisound.de/en/Do-it-yourself-Products/Loudspeaker-Accessories/Damping-Material/

Any input appriciated, as I'm kindof in the open when it comes to suited damping material.

[TEK]

I manage to find some WF223DB01 elements at hifisound.de and have just placed an order on all the elements needed :P
Wavecor from them were at 186 EUR, google says that's approximate 202 USD - so that's not all that bad.

Also ordered some stuffing - but as I did not get any reply I had to just guess on what might work...
Monday I will start getting materials, hope to use easter to produce some sawdust 8)

[dar47]

Glad you scored some 01's and it's going to be nice to see you get started.:T

Ben and I stuffed 0.75 lbs of loose Dacron per speaker for the base sections (stuff sealed / line ported). The mid section was 1/2" of yellow ridged isolation on the back wall and then everything covered with broad loom carpet. I have settled on this approach and it seams to produce consistent results. You want to damp the back wave of that expensive mid driver. Not sure on Jon's lead and felt approach. I have tried foams but they seam to sound different every time, not consistent. If you have access to some of those nice natural wools it could be a way to go.

[TEK]

Thanks for the input Dar47.

I'm starting to get stuff.
Elements are ordered, and yesterday I got the materials needed...

[BobEllis]

Anti-gravity plywood? Bet that set you back a lot.

[JonMarsh]

I manage to find some WF223DB01 elements at hifisound.de and have just placed an order on all the elements needed :P
Wavecor from them were at 186 EUR, google says that's approximate 202 USD - so that's not all that bad.

Also ordered some stuffing - but as I did not get any reply I had to just guess on what might work...
Monday I will start getting materials, hope to use easter to produce some sawdust 8)

Congratulations on the parts orders! Type of stuffing is not particularly critical with this sort of sealed alignment. I used a poly-Dacron fiber (Acousta Stuff, I think). available in bags from PE- it won't irritate your skin, as fiberglass does for some people.

[TEK]

Anti-gravity plywood? Bet that set you back a lot.

Jup, but very easy to carry - and now that it is floating up there in the ceeling it's out of the way as well.
As you can (or can't) see I had the sheets cut down to 122x122cm instead of the regular 122x244 for easier handling - so that I would not fly away when carrying them :W

When it cane to stuffing I ordered some "LONG-FIBRE LAMBS WOOL", guess that should work.

[TEK]

Hi
My old router bit are worn out and I will need a new one to trim the edges (and of course other stuff).
My previous was some low-cost ones that I was NOT impressed by.

To me there seems to be a lot of low quality router bits out there, so I wonder if any of you could recommend a good edge trimming router bit.
(I think I have seen this discussed before, but I could not find it now)

Edit: when thinking about it, I have a new router that takes 1/2" bits (my old one only took 6mm), and I could also use new bits to take out the element holes - so recommendations for a good bit for that is also wanted!

[dar47]

Hum, unless your using industrial bits that are going to be resharpen I think something like Freud or better quality should be fine not to expensive that you can't keep buying to have sharp ones always available. Your going to need a few 1/4" up cutting fluted spiral bits as they tend to dull quick and you have a lot of holes to cut. Since your router can take 1/2" , I would get a 1/2" x 1 1/2" bottom bearing flush trim bit to square all those cab faces. Make sure you hang on lots of torque.

[JonMarsh]

Bosch bits might be easier to find where you are, Freud are made in Italy, so that is a possibility... for round overs, I use MLCS and Whiteside also, but probably tough to source in Norway!

[TEK]

Thanks for the input. I'll see what I'm able to source.

A different question to you more experience builders.
Do you usually build both speakers at the same time, or do you complete them one-by-one?

[dar47]

Well if your unsure of your cutting process it may be advantageous to do a cheap prototype just to plan things out. I take advantage of same table saw pass (1 set up for 1 measurement i time and cut all the parts needed that are that measurement) this limits errors and keeps the parts the same tolerances, so ya always all parts 2 cabs same time. Assembly can be 1 or 2 at a time, finishing 2 at a time.

[knowledgebass]

That's my process as well. Setup once and make all the cuts. Same for the router and completing woofer cut outs.

[TEK]

Good points', two in one go it is then :-)
Hmm - table saw you said... Maybe I must have one of those? For now I have done all my cutting with my Festool circular saw and my guide track...

[dar47]

The Festool saws have a nice advantage with cutting the 10 deg. edges right from your mark, should work well for the one cut process.:T

[TEK]

I'm starting to think about finish for these.
They are going to be in the home theater - so I think that I will go for something dark. I veneered the sub's in white ash that was colored black. I do not think that look will do the Wavecor Ardent's justice - so I'm thinking about something that stands more out.
I think that the most relevant right now is something like this:


Is this maple burl?

Another option is to go more against black, like some of the B&W signature speakers:


I think that B&W calls this gray tigers eye, but I have no idea if that's a veneer that's easy to get hold on - or how it is treated to get that color.

In other aspects, speakers like Jons with birdseye looks wonderful as well - but for my usage and placement I think those are to light - and I'm guite sure I will aim towards something darker.

Sourcing of the veneer is also going to be a issue, especially as I would like both paper backed with PSA option and non-paper backed (for the facets).
I think that there might be one place locally here that work with veneering. Might pay them a visit to see if they have something that seems interesting.

Right now I'm leaning towards the first one shown above, the one I think is maple burl.
Any input on options and/or sources is appreciated.

[benthe8track]

This is where I got my walnut burl from:

http://www.veneersupplies.com/

I used 1 sheet of PSA (front,top, sides, facets) and raw on the back. Not sure what shipping to Norway would look like, however.

[TEK]

Thanks bethe8track. I have used veneersupplies before. They do not ship to norway, but I can use a middleman (jetcarrier) to fix that.

If I'm not mistaking this is yours:




They looks stunning!
I'm quite sure that I will go the same router as you, and use Walnut Burl and source it from veneersupplies.

From what I recall Jon used clear gloss and then a few layer of satin gloss at the end.
Did you do that or did you use satin gloss on all layers? And did you add any color before coating them, or is the color just due to the clear coating?

[TEK]

Sawdust is being made...

I cut the 18mm BB sides first. Those were very overcut (meaning I did not cut the hight at all, just the width). Two side in each cut - as my circular saw only takes 50mm deep cuts.


This is the cutting of the inside MDF for the side panels. All 4 in one cut. Was a bit of a challenge to find a 10 degree angel, but I figured it out.


More MDF side panel cutting.


The festool guide rail have the possibility to be clamped fast to the item beeing cut. Just figured this out, and for now I'm using a regular clamp that I have abused so that it works this way. Two new festool clamps on order :T


Measuring where to cut the BB side walls. Using the MDF inside as a guide and making room for the top (1/2" MDF + 18mm BB), if you look closely you will se that there is a tiny bit of overshoot there.


Distant picture, still measuring where to cut the BB side walls. Cutting two sides at the same time.
In this picture I'm about to draw the line on the BB by following the left side of the MDF. That's where the next cut will be.

Next it's time to laminate the 1/2" MDF and the 18mm BB together.

[TEK]

Setting up to make the final cut for the BB sides.


"Help, help what are you doing - why are you cutting our heads off? :E"
From earlier attempt to glue sheets of MDF/Ply together I have experienced that the sheets have a tendency to glide and those shift position when pressure is being added.
To avoid that this time I made guide holes from the inside, trough the MDF and into the BB sheets. But the plugs I had were to long so I had to shorten them a little. 3 plugs in each side, total 12 plugs.
But I forgot to take pictures of the sides before gluing them together...
After I applied glue I just put the plates on top of each other and the plugs+guide holes ensured that the sheets did not shift position at all. It worked as a dream :-)


Clamping up the side walls - now it will dry until tomorrow :T

[TEK]

I'm sorry, but I just had to add these brag pictures... :W

I have just cutted BB and MDF for the back plate. 11 1/4" for the BB and 10 1/4" for the MDF, leaving exactly 1/2" for each MDF plate.
I'm just position the BB and MDF before gluing them togheter, using some scrap pieces of MDF to verify the width of the joint edge. Have to say that I'm quite happy with the cuts made. I actually can't feel any edges between the BB and the MDF test pices. Almost so that I wonder if I should start to plan room for glue when cutting this sheets
(PS: it shows that in Norway the MDF is sold as 12mm MDF, but actually is exactly 1/2")

Overview

Closeup left edge

Closeup right edge

[benthe8track]

Thanks bethe8track. I have used veneersupplies before. They do not ship to norway, but I can use a middleman (jetcarrier) to fix that.

If I'm not mistaking this is yours:

They looks stunning!
I'm quite sure that I will go the same router as you, and use Walnut Burl and source it from veneersupplies.

From what I recall Jon used clear gloss and then a few layer of satin gloss at the end.
Did you do that or did you use satin gloss on all layers? And did you add any color before coating them, or is the color just due to the clear coating?

Hey nice to see you getting into the swing of things!
No stain on mine just a lot of gloss conversion varnish covered by one layer of satin. The raw burl is rough so it took quite a bit of product to burry it. The surface was close but not quite there for full gloss and I was out of time.

For the porosity of the burl my first choice was polyester but it wasn't legal in Winnipeg. If I had another 6 months I would have just ordered it and used a similar setup as Jon and did it myself.

[JonMarsh]

I'm sorry, but I just had to add these brag pictures... :W

I have just cutted BB and MDF for the back plate. 11 1/4" for the BB and 10 1/4" for the MDF, leaving exactly 1/2" for each MDF plate.
I'm just position the BB and MDF before gluing them togheter, using some scrap pieces of MDF to verify the width of the joint edge. Have to say that I'm quite happy with the cuts made. I actually can't feel any edges between the BB and the MDF test pices. Almost so that I wonder if I should start to plan room for glue when cutting this sheets
(PS: it shows that in Norway the MDF is sold as 12mm MDF, but actually is exactly 1/2")
[ATTACH=CONFIG]23996[/ATTACH]
Overview
[ATTACH=CONFIG]23997[/ATTACH]
Closeup left edge
[ATTACH=CONFIG]23998[/ATTACH]
Closeup right edge

Looking very good, TEK! :T Good to see you making high quality saw dust! :W

[dar47]

Yup nothing wrong with Festool in the hands of a capable guy. 1/32" both sides would give plenty for glue, if not most will compress and a little sanding will do, Great work so far.:T