Ardent inspired sub project : element and amps arrived...

**JonMarsh** · 24 February 2013, 13:50 Sunday

It sounds like fun! Have you ever considered side firing force canceling design? Yeah, the cabinet would get a bit big, but... just a thought.

**TEK** · 24 February 2013, 15:00 Sunday

Considering it now...

I see that a fource canceling design have some great advantages, and If I were to replace my current sub (located almost in the center of the room) I might have gone for it.
However, I'm planning on having the subs on the side of each front speaker in the front of the room (my gear, like amp and so on, is in the center between the front speakers) so they will be located in a corner.

In this setup, a side firering woofer would be pointing directly into the side of my speaker and into the sidewall of the room. I dont think that is ideal. I want my subs elements to be pointing at me, not the floor or side walls.
I also might get space issues, with the area between the speakers and the wall, if the sub is to wide.

So for now I still think I will hold on to two sealed, front firing, subs...

**gbegland** · 24 February 2013, 22:05 Sunday

Well, you could consider the dual 12" version and still make two! Yeah, we are a dangerous bunch around here. Whatever you choose, as long as you integrate them well with the main speakers, you ought to enjoy the results.

I've been more than pleased with my set of 15" that I built. I liked them so much in fact, I convinced the guys are the studio to install dual 15" kits on either side of the mains.

Greg

**TEK** · 25 February 2013, 02:38 Monday

Hmm - or dual 15" and still make two ;-)

Greg, du you have a link to the sub you are mention?
(tried a searc, but with no luck)

**TEK** · 25 February 2013, 15:20 Monday

I'm not to good with sketchup, but this is an attemt to explain how I'm thinking to build this.
This first picture gives an impression of how the box will look when completed. But in this picture the box is not tilted 10 degrees, and since I'm not an advanced sketchup user this is just a box with the corner cut of.

In this picture I have drawn the outer box design as I'm planning to build it, but before the the baffel is cut of. Mostly because of that beeing a bit hard to get right in Sketchup. Seems as if there is going to be 4 simular plates (3 for the baffel and one for the back), two simular plates, one for each side, two simular plates, one for top and one for button.

This picture is the rythmic audio box and shows how the praces will be layd out. I think I will "wing it" instead of drawing the braces in Sketchup. Otherwise I think I will be using more time in sketchup than actually building these things ;-)

Right now I'm in the prosess of getting final price quotes from Rythmic audio before elements and amps are ordered.
(and doing a final ensurement that building this based on two Aurasound NS18 instead is not an option that I will go for...)

-TEK

**gbegland** · 25 February 2013, 18:38 Monday

I don't have a detailed write-up with exact dimensions or anything like that, but here are some picts of mine and the ones for the studio. Mine is 3/4" PVC pipe covered with a high quality vinyl.

**TEK** · 10 March 2013, 12:01 Sunday

That some cool sub's gbegland :-)

To go a bit off-topics while I wait for the stuff to arraive (and until I get around to create some dust).
The idea behind building the sub's with a facet design is to target a full 7.2 setup based on the Ardent main speakers. As Jon is still working on crossover, finding drivers and so on - what will be used is still not known. I also start with the sub's to see if I'm able to build speakers with this design that will look good enought.

But even if I get to the point where I have built both sub's as well as the ardent, I still will need back and side speakers.
Basic design idea for the back and side speakers are:
- Designet to be placed quite high up on the wall
- Due to the high placement I think the tweeter should be at the bottom of the speaker and be tilted a bit down
- Woofer element would then be placed above the tweeter
- As it's a wall mounted speaker it would be placed all the way into the wall (maybe 3-8 cm out to make room for cable connections)
- I think they should not be very deep (less than 20cm?), but a bit wider (40cm) and higher (45cm?)
- They should handle enought SPL for action movies using a lot of sorround effects
- They should go low enough to be crossed over with my 15" sub's (at least 80hz)

I assume the actual elements used should be something that has quite the same sound signature as the ardent- or at least the same range of sensitivitet. As far as my understanding, it's not that critical that the sourround speakers have exactly the same sound signature as the main speakers. That's more important for the senter speaker.

So what does other think? Is this doable? Any known DIY design here that maybe could be used? I do not think that I have enought knowledge to design a speaker from start. Ideally I would like to be able to build something that someone else have designed.
(As my current setup is 5.1, and I want a 7.2 because of a new room - it might actually be that I will attemt to build these before I attac the Ardent)

The picture show a very, very rough sketcup drawing of the idea.

-TEK

**TEK** · 10 March 2013, 12:34 Sunday

I have another question, this time directly reated to the sub build.
BTW: The kits have been ordered and are on their way from "over there" now.
Ended up with DS1510 4ohm with H600PEQ3 servo amplifier

The sketchup drawing shows how I'm planning on combining the sides of the sub.

Do you usually just glue the sides together, like this?

Or do you for example a router to cut joints into them so that they you will be more sure that there is no leakage in the box and to make sure that the joints are strong enough, like this?

**Carl V** · 10 March 2013, 13:35 Sunday

a Lock Miter is a nice joint...A rabbit joint is simpler...
simple Butt Joint with or without Biscuits is adequate.
The trick is close tolerance joints, adequate stabilization
during glue set. Proper joint sealer for finishing.

**JonMarsh** · 10 March 2013, 18:33 Sunday

Originally posted by Carl V

a Lock Miter is a nice joint...A rabbit joint is simpler...
simple Butt Joint with or without Biscuits is adequate.
The trick is close tolerance joints, adequate stabilization
during glue set. Proper joint sealer for finishing.

:agree: +1 What Carl said... :T I'm no woodworker, so don't listen to me- listen to people like Carl, Pete Mazz, Colorado Tom, Steve Manning, Scott, etc.

ME, what I do, is measure six times as accurately as I can, (around 1/64" these days... practice doesn't make perfect, but makes better...) cut once, and use System Three T-88 structural epoxy or Loctite Marine Expoxy...

Clamps. Did I mention clamps? Like Hank also says, you can NEVER have too many clamps. That should probably be my sig instead of the bit about drivers, but THAT's true, too! :B

Pay no attention to this advice... I live in my own strange world of woodworking... what do you expect when you let a wires and sparks guy loose to play with power tools? :rofl:

**PMazz** · 11 March 2013, 06:59 Monday

The type of construction is based more on your tools and skill set. An accurate mitered joint on MDF is one of the strongest, and best, in terms of veneering or painting. No butt joints or edges to affect the finish. But a simple, accurate butt joint is really all that's needed.

**TEK** · 11 March 2013, 14:01 Monday

Hi

Thanks a lot for the input. Just to get the right name on the different joint types was a great help.
When I first got the names it was easy to look it up. Found figures, videos and explanations for the different types.

I think I will try to use rabbit joints, at least for some of the joints. Seems quite easy to make.
I will try some on some pices of leftovers before final decition.

**BobEllis** · 11 March 2013, 16:11 Monday

Be sure to adjust the sizes of the pieces that go in the rabbets or at best you'll end up smaller than planned. Done that once or twice.

ops:

**TEK** · 25 March 2013, 08:24 Monday

BobEllis: Already tought about that. But if I will be able to get it right - that's a different story

Saturday the mail delivered the elements and amps for this little project :-)

(the picture only shows one amp and one element - there are of course one more set inside the other box)

The mail also delivered another present to me :P

It's really starting to be time to get this build on the road. But as the other says: Slow work takes time!
Still a number of small issues around the house that have to get priority - but it's getting closer now.

**Face** · 26 March 2013, 12:20 Tuesday

Nice saw! Just purchased a 9' rail for mine. 8O

**TEK** · 29 March 2013, 19:24 Friday

Found out that I needed some more detailed drawings.
Box design:

The facets cuts is 10degrees. I have also added details about the joints. I have not drawn the braces.

Now I think it's time to use time making sawedust instead of sitting by the computer :-)

**TEK** · 31 March 2013, 05:30 Sunday

Work in progress...

Ruter jigs to create rabbit joints... Hope it will work ;-)

**Johnloudb** · 31 March 2013, 12:52 Sunday

Nice Work! Look forward to seeing the results. :T

**TEK** · 31 March 2013, 13:58 Sunday

Testing the element in its mounting hole - and first lesson learned.
The hole is a bit to large. I don't think thats a problem for this element - but I have learned that my router circle jig is to "wooblee" for real precision work. Have to get a better jig before building the Ardents ;-)

**TEK** · 31 March 2013, 17:24 Sunday

All joints completed - guess this is not rabbit joints - but some other type of joint
Also glued the front baffle

strange - it seems like all pictures are inserted up-side down. They are shown the right way on my pad

**PMazz** · 01 April 2013, 06:25 Monday

That's my definition of a rabbeted joint.

**TEK** · 01 April 2013, 08:10 Monday

Ok, then rabbit joint it is ;-)

I have gluednthe front baffle. I observe that I have got small "cracks" between the layers some places. I do not think it will be a problem, but I wonder if this is just to be expected or if I should have done something different to avoid this.
Anyone with some more experience that have some knowledge they want to share?

**PMazz** · 01 April 2013, 08:24 Monday

Could be too much or too heavy of a glue application. That will create hydraulic pressure between the panels. Could also be use of localized clamping w/o the use of cauls. From the picture it looks like a combination of the two.

You need something to spread out the clamps pressure. Next time try using ~4" wide strips on edge or stacking several more dry layers of material and then clamping. When spreading glue, use a notched trowel or roll it on with a cheap sponge roller cover. It only takes a thin film of glue to achieve a good bond.

**Face** · 01 April 2013, 08:39 Monday

I'd look into picking up some full size Besse clamps.

**TEK** · 01 April 2013, 09:15 Monday

Thanks for the input - will use it on yhe next box.
As I'm planning on veneering the box I think it should be ok.

Now, baffel "cut" in progress...

**TEK** · 01 April 2013, 10:25 Monday

I actually think that went rather well...

**TEK** · 01 April 2013, 11:55 Monday

I still have some work to do on the box, but it's time to get hold on some veneer.
The sub, and later on the speakers, will be in black or gray. My vife does not like birdseye.
Anyone who could recommend what type of veener I should use? Type of wood as well as type of veenere (for example oak/lingaflex).

**PMazz** · 02 April 2013, 06:30 Tuesday

Is that a power planer?

What kind of look do you want for veneer. If you like the look of oak, I would suggest trying white ash. Grain is similar in looks but IMO far nicer looking and produces a nicer finish. If you want straight grained look, try rift cut or quarter sawn or some of the exotics. There are also man-made veneers out there that are pretty cool.

VeneerSupplies.com - Aw, Nuts!

http://www.veneersupplies.com/categories/Veneer__Products/Paper__Backed__Veneer/Reconstituted__Veneer%3A__8%27__x__4%27/

Check out our inventory of exotic and domestic wood veneers. We also offer a full line of vacuum pressing kits, vacuum bags, and veneering essentials.

404 Not Found

http://band-itproducts.com/index.php/industrial-product-lineup/product-engineered-wood-veneer/

Formwood

http://formwood.com/woodlaminates.html

**TEK** · 02 April 2013, 10:51 Tuesday

Hi

Yes, that's right. It's a power planer. Got it quite a number of years ago - havent used it that mutch. But I think it was very nice fit for creating the angels with. Just draw up the lines and started. It's adustable, so I could start out removing quite mutch for each pass and then removing smaller and smaller bits as I got closer to the line.
I think that method should work nicly for lager speakers as well - for example the Ardents ;-)

I think I will see if I can get the hold on white ash as you recommend.
I have never veenered before - and there does not seem to be anywhere here where I live (Trondheim, Norway) to go to check out different types.

Is it possible for someone to give a direct link to an exact type of white ash veener that is recommended for a freshman as myself?

Regards, TEK

**Hank** · 02 April 2013, 12:43 Tuesday

I've mainly used Tape-Ease for veneer over the years. Never used ash, but I see they have white ash quarter-sawn paper-backed for $69:

404 - File or directory not found.

http://www.tapeease.com/10_mil_%20veneer.htm#ProdDesc3

**JonMarsh** · 02 April 2013, 17:10 Tuesday

Now, I understand my viewpoint or perspective isn't always appreciated or understood... but personally, I think it looks better like this...

:W

Of course, that's just one guys opinion... YMMV, and all that! :roll:

But in general, it IS looking good! :T Making sawdust is always better than making computer pictures, though one sometimes leads to the other, in more ways than one!

**Carl V** · 02 April 2013, 21:20 Tuesday

your project looks good....

And I second the use of ASH.
I have used the
reconstituted wood when doing some kitchen cabinetry.
I veneered over nice apple ply.
it makes for nice consistent grain patterns

my only reservation is the lack of internal braces.
You are still at a place where you could add
the braces into the enclosure & onto the interior walls.

Even adding 1X2" Oak boards and gluing them end grain
as Thomas has done in the past with his Wooodstyle
Sub Enclosure...his double Shiva

**TEK** · 03 April 2013, 01:20 Wednesday

Thanks for the kind words :-)

I can agree that your point ov view is better Jon. Using the iPad to take and upload the photos - and it seems like strange things happens in the process...

Easter holiday is over, so there is a little pause in the work for a couple of day.
I have started with the inner braces. I will add several braces, and each brace (or at least some of them) will be "inserted" into the sidewallsmof the sub. Will post some pictures soon.

Im also trying to figure out if it's possible to by veener in Norway or if I will have to order from a different country.

**PMazz** · 03 April 2013, 06:25 Wednesday

Can't help on where to buy. If you want easy, try a P&S (Peel & Stick) backed veneer if available. It works like contact paper. As for the type of ash, plain sliced or flat cut will have the usual wavy grain pattern while rift cut or quarter sawn will be more parallel straight-grained. You'll pay more for rift cut but won't have to be particular about aligning the grain pattern on a panel, and thus, less waste. With the facets on your enclosure, I would recommend 10 mil paper backed as it won't show a thick edge on adjoining sides.

Here's Quartersawn:

VeneerSupplies.com - Aw, Nuts!

http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Paper-Backed-Ash-Veneer-Quartersawn-4-x-8.html

Check out our inventory of exotic and domestic wood veneers. We also offer a full line of vacuum pressing kits, vacuum bags, and veneering essentials.

And Flat cut:

VeneerSupplies.com - Aw, Nuts!

http://www.veneersupplies.com/products/Paper-Backed-Ash-Veneer-Flat-Cut-4-x-8.html

Check out our inventory of exotic and domestic wood veneers. We also offer a full line of vacuum pressing kits, vacuum bags, and veneering essentials.

**TEK** · 03 April 2013, 15:04 Wednesday

Thanks PMazz, that was really helpfull. Now I understand the different.
Not sure what to select - think I will have to get the wife to decide - but now I at least understand what to select between.

I see that there os also the option for using reconstituted veneer. As I understand it this type of veneer is has less difference between the different sheets. Would you say that this type of veneer is considered to be of better quality and easier to get a good result with than not reconstituded veneer (or is it looking fake and misses "charm" compared to other veneer types?)

**JonMarsh** · 03 April 2013, 16:03 Wednesday

Originally posted by TEK

Thanks for the kind words :-)

I can agree that your point ov view is better Jon. Using the iPad to take and upload the photos - and it seems like strange things happens in the process...

Yeah, the standard Photo's app doesn't give you any options for rotation- but the iPhoto App for the iPad is quite handy in many ways, and can change the rotation.

Later this week I'll be much closer to you, but still not so close... flying to Munich tomorrow. No speaker progress until after I get back on the 13th. At least it's a Saturday... but I'll be watching to see if you have time for more progress- hope you do! :T

**PMazz** · 04 April 2013, 07:29 Thursday

Would you say that this type of veneer is considered to be of better quality and easier to get a good result with than not reconstituted veneer (or is it looking fake and misses "charm" compared to other veneer types?)

Uniformity is the biggest difference. You could order a sheet of flat cut veneer and wind up with 75% usability because of the grain pattern, assuming you want the best looking finished product. Quartered or rift cut will probably be almost entirely uniform. The engineered veneers are as well. It all boils down to what you find appealing. Some think quartered veneers too bland, some like burl or birdseye.

**TEK** · 06 April 2013, 11:08 Saturday

Does not seem to be any subwoofer building today...

**cjd** · 07 April 2013, 16:45 Sunday

Mmm. Kitchen refresh?

I'm pondering one of those, starting with the island - am not yet sure whether I'll be better off with a custom build or prefab, though the latter is clearly less work.

I've had an odd headache all weekend so no speaker-building here either - not much else either, sadly.

C

**TEK** · 07 April 2013, 17:12 Sunday

My parent-in-laws is fixing up their upper floor (after we build a house right in front of their house and took all their view ;-).
One of the things thats up now is installing their new kitchen. Is prefab, but they are doing all the installation work themself. Of course, when the kitchen arrived on friday my father-in-law tried to carry it all into the house alone (I was at work) and got a really bad back pain - so the result was that I had to do all the installation.
Have to mention that they have helped us A LOT while we were moving into our new house, so I think thats the least I could do!
Went rather well - but things take times when installing kitchen as well - not just when building speakers....

Hope both you and my father-in-law feel better in the week to come!

**TEK** · 13 April 2013, 17:56 Saturday

Got some building time today.
Working on the inner braces - but I must say this is taking a bit longer than I expected. A lot of thinking and wondering going on during the building. Maybe it wouød have been better to use some more time in sketchup ;-)

Still not done with the innner bracing - but at least 3/4 done I think.

BTW: I think there is something wrong with the forum software. Images is beeing rotaded when uploaded. None of the images below is rotated on my pad - but when they are loaded up to the forum something happens and they are rotated...

**JonMarsh** · 14 April 2013, 12:13 Sunday

Depends on what the orientation of your iPad is when you take the picture and view- it may be marking them in a way that landscape is preferred. I don't have that issue from my Mac, or using iPhoto on iPad (can rotate view; orient screen in landscape when working in it). Otherwise, good to see you making progress!

**TEK** · 14 April 2013, 15:02 Sunday

Just testing...
It seem to be something realated to the upload function when uploading images from the iPad. These are the exact same images, but uploaded using my iPhone instead of the iPad...
I can also see that the rotation is wrong in the forums tool for managing attachments.

**TEK** · 15 April 2013, 15:52 Monday

Hi you great gurus of knowledge

After struggling along to create my inner braces I have a couple of things that I wounder about.
For my sub here I'm using OSB (Oriented Strand Board) plates for inner braces. Mostly because I had two sheets laying around that the builders left here after they where done building my house.
The OSB is a quite rough material and I do not think I normally would have selected it - but it is also quite dense so I do not think there is any problem using it.I think that the OSB I'm using is 13mm.

What I notice is that it is quite some work to cut out all the holes and cut's in these plates. So what I'm kind of wondering is what plates is the "best" to use for inner bracing. I do see that some uses MDF and some uses HDF.
But if I create a matrix construction, like what B&W (see below) does, what material would you recommend to use? I'm thinking type of wood and thickness.
And how would you connect the braces to the rest of the box?

Please describe your best tips and tricks for a newbie and others to enjoy!

Ardent inspired sub project : element and amps arrived...

Ardent inspired sub project : element and amps arrived...

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