Swope 3-way (TMWW or WTMW)

[Undefinition]

Wow, guys, I can't believe the time has finally come! Thanks to a very generous DIYer who built and shipped me some cabinets, I was able to measure, sim, and tweak a crossover for a full-fledged 3-way using the HiVi M-series woofers and Dayton ND28F (and SB 29RDCN) tweeters.

The crossover shares a similar topology to the Swope Center Channel, but the values are very different. I adjusted the BSC as well as changed the overall voicing of the speaker.

The cabinets provided to me were sealed, so obviously I know they integrate well with a sub. But I also know that most people would want to build this speaker vented. So that's the model I'm providing. The cabinet design I'm showing here uses 3/4" stock. The chamber for the M5A is about 4.5 Liters, and the chamber for the woofers is somewhere around 58 Liters, give or take bracing. And yes, it's a big cabinet and it WILL need bracing. If it were me, I'd probably just rip some 3" strips and screw those into the walls, tying them together. A more patient/competent builder would probably use full-length "windowpane" braces. The woofer cabinet is tuned to around 40 Hz. I think it would look coolest with a 3" Precision Port, so I plugged the values into their calculator and it said the flared port would need to be 4.75" long. The inside cabinet walls should be lined with some sort of damping foam (eg: eggcrate), and the mid chamber should be stuffed full of polyfil.

[Undefinition]

And here is the crossover, Frequency Response, and Impedance of the same speaker using the SB Acoustics 29RCDN. It's a really excellent tweeter, and does indeed sound very similar to the Vifa XT25.

[cjd]

Nice looking stuff! How's that ND28 hold up?

[Johnloudb]

So, Paul, these are just sims to this point for the crossover? Haven't played any music as of yet is that right?

[Undefinition]

So, Paul, these are just sims to this point for the crossover? Haven't played any music as of yet is that right?

No, no, this is the real deal. i've been listening to them all week. Guess I should have included some listening impressions.

First, the HiVi M series have quite a pleasing midrange... not as "cold" as the Dayton RS drivers. The overall presentation is very "spacious." Imaging is quite good, and voices and instruments place themselves easily in the soundstage.

The Dayton ND28 has been one of my faves since the first time I used it. It's easy to work with in a crossover, and it is very easy to listen to (unlike the DC28 ). It's being pushed to its limits in this design. It can keep up with the dual M6A--but nothing more. If you notice, there is no padding whatsoever in the tweeter filter on the ND28 version. (I believe cjd ran into a similar scenario on his massive MTMWW design)

The choice between the Dayton and SB tweeter is probably dependent on the type of music one listens to. The SB is crystal-clear. Well-recorded stuff is immaculate on them. Poorly-recorded stuff (and mp3s) have all their flaws shown. The Dayton actually does a better job of "washing out" the flawed recordings, but on the other hand, they cannot bring you every little detail the way the SB 29RDCN does in the great recordings.

[Johnloudb]

Guess I should have included some listening impressions.

Yep!

Sounds like a very nice speaker. I guess the bass is kind of limited being sealed. I don't suppose the box owner is going to let you cut a hole for a port? These are going to be his speakers?

[heapatrouble]

Well, I'd be the DIY'er in question. I deliberately chose sealed since Multiple subwoofers are going to be integrated into this home theater system. Paul and I conversed about the idea of porting the enclosures I sent to him, but he was able to determine that the enclosures I built were just a bit too small. This wasn't a bit deal to me, but others will (obviously) have different design goals in mind. In any case, my system is probably a month out from being completed, after which point, I will post the project here and on the P.E. forum.

Beyond that, I have a couple of thoughts on the Hi-Vi woofers:

First and foremost, the build quality seems to be first rate. The chassis is quite sturdy, and manufacturing uniformity and Q.C. I was intrigued to see that there is some kind of coating on the back of the inverted domes. I touched it lightly and found it to be a bit tacky - perhaps some kind of elastomer.

Next, even though my digital caliper showed the overall diameter of the M5a to be 5.5 inches, in reality, it is just slightly larger than that. I have no idea how this could work out, but my 5.5" dia. recess was just a bit too small.

Lastly, packaging of the M6a is far better than that of the M5a. I was both surprised and relieved that no shipping damage occurred to any of the drivers, and equally relieved that the M6a was shipped in much more sturdy packaging.

[rvsixer]

With the changes in overall voicing, is the current Swope center not a good match for the new TMWW?

[Undefinition]

With the changes in overall voicing, is the current Swope center not a good match for the new TMWW?

You can pair it up. The voicing on the center channel is a bit more "impactful" (not a word, apparently). You can also use this XO on the Swope CC. I measured it to be sure.

As for the bass, I pretty much used the same bass alignment that I did in the ZX Spectrum . And the bass from that thing ROCKED! As I said in the Spectrum writeup: the bass from the M6A is similar to--but not quite in the same league as--a Scan-Speak midwoofer.

[vlad335]

Oh Noes...

I bought all the stuff for a pair of Mini Statements and have commenced to building them and I come in here and see this! ARRGHHH! Say it isnt so! I really thought you were not going to work on this for a couple months

Seriously though, I love my Swope center and would have built these in a heartbeat. I have had some really good center channel speakers here ( Monitor Audio, Paradigm, etc) and this one smokes them all. Amazing for a speaker costing a little over two bills.

[vlad335]

Paul,

Can I use the SB tweeter in my present Swope CC? Changing just the tweeter crossover perhaps?

One thing I noticed about this speaker is how sensitive it is to different damping materials and the amounts of it. Maybe its something to do with the HIVi drivers as I started playing around with the damping after building the Overnight Sensations.

What did you use in your Swope CC? Did you stuff it tight?

thanks

[heapatrouble]

Swope/SB CC crossover

According to the email Paul sent me after working up the crossover for the center speaker with the SB tweeter, the crossover is exactly the same whether you use the Dayton or the SB tweeter. I know. I was surprised by that also.

[Undefinition]

According to the email Paul sent me after working up the crossover for the center speaker with the SB tweeter, the crossover is exactly the same whether you use the Dayton or the SB tweeter. I know. I was surprised by that also.

Sort of. The coils and caps are the same. The resistor is a different value. And you're right, that it's very rare that changing a driver requires so little change in the crossover. I think it's mostly coincidence.

[Undefinition]

Can I use the SB tweeter in my present Swope CC? Changing just the tweeter crossover perhaps?

Yes. I measured that, and tweaked the XO. It's a very slight change in the XO, and you can swap in the SB tweeter. PM me if you want the crossover for the SB tweeter.
FYI: the SB tweeter has a slightly larger flange than the Dayton

One thing I noticed about this speaker is how sensitive it is to different damping materials and the amounts of it. Maybe its something to do with the HIVi drivers as I started playing around with the damping after building the Overnight Sensations.

What did you use in your Swope CC? Did you stuff it tight?

When I do sealed speakers, I tend to stuff them pretty densely. Vented, I try to use the least amount of stuffing (and/or lining) that is needed.

[JohnnyT]

Cut Sheet

I made a cut sheet for this set too , like I did for your Swope HT 5.1. I will attach it when I get home as the sites to host it are blocked at work :-( I had a few questions I asked in your 5.1 thread if I need to move them I can but do you have any answers? Thanks :B Link 1 Link 2

[JohnnyT]

Cut Sheet

Not available

[vlad335]

Yes. I measured that, and tweaked the XO. It's a very slight change in the XO, and you can swap in the SB tweeter. PM me if you want the crossover for the SB tweeter.
FYI: the SB tweeter has a slightly larger flange than the Dayton

PM sent. Thank you.

[tashspop]

i haven't asked this i guess because i didn't want to sound ungrateful or something like that. i built the swope cc and love it, but i've noticed the tweeter just really doesn't show up, especially if i do an a/b compairison with my current fronts.
i was wondering if there was a xover or driver issue, or maybe my prefrence is just brighter until i seen this thread.

is the sb tweeter brighter? it looks like quite a step up in price especially if building the front three speakers in this lineup. is it worth the cost increase? thanks ahead paul.

ps if what i'm hearing seems off a little please let me know so i can start trouble shooting. i do have another nib nd28f i can swap out.

[dar47]

i haven't asked this i guess because i didn't want to sound ungrateful or something like that. i built the swope cc and love it, but i've noticed the tweeter just really doesn't show up, especially if i do an a/b compairison with my current fronts.
i was wondering if there was a xover or driver issue, or maybe my prefrence is just brighter until i seen this thread.

is the sb tweeter brighter? it looks like quite a step up in price especially if building the front three speakers in this lineup. is it worth the cost increase? thanks ahead paul.

ps if what i'm hearing seems off a little please let me know so i can start trouble shooting. i do have another nib nd28f i can swap out.

I built the MTM's and centre for my 80 year old mother's apartment where the couch is 10' away. I think the centre has more presence then the mtm's but this is perfect for my mother as voices are right in front of you. These have the Dayton tweets with ports out the back and both mtm's and centre are just foam lined. I wouldn't say anyone driver calls attention to itself, vary neutral voicing. I haven't had a lot of time listening to them but I did watch all of Chris Botti's in Boston on blue ray last night with mom and there is a lot of horn,violin and soft wind instruments and I thought these did an admirable job with mids and highs that sound right there. Anyways they are way over their price range.

If you have an extra tweet to switch out try it, although I'm not sure why both speaks would sound lean.

I would like to thank Paul for his nice design. I'm just finishing some stands for the mtm's so when I'm done I'll post some completed pics.

[vlad335]

i haven't asked this i guess because i didn't want to sound ungrateful or something like that. i built the swope cc and love it, but i've noticed the tweeter just really doesn't show up, especially if i do an a/b compairison with my current fronts.
i was wondering if there was a xover or driver issue, or maybe my prefrence is just brighter until i seen this thread.

is the sb tweeter brighter? it looks like quite a step up in price especially if building the front three speakers in this lineup. is it worth the cost increase? thanks ahead paul.

ps if what i'm hearing seems off a little please let me know so i can start trouble shooting. i do have another nib nd28f i can swap out.

Regarding the center, I think it's the way this speaker is voiced, for vocal intelligibility. The midrange is emphasized and dialog is clear and loud through out the entire room. That's what a center channel should do and this one does it the best I have heard yet.

As was said, none of the drivers draw attention to themselves. There is just enough tweeter to make dialog sound natural. I did not build the MTM's but I imagine they are voiced differently.

[Undefinition]

i haven't asked this i guess because i didn't want to sound ungrateful or something like that. i built the swope cc and love it, but i've noticed the tweeter just really doesn't show up, especially if i do an a/b compairison with my current fronts.
i was wondering if there was a xover or driver issue, or maybe my prefrence is just brighter until i seen this thread.

It's two factors. One, the ND28 is a mellow tweeter. It's one of the un-hissiest tweeters I've ever used, and that's why I like it so much. Second, if you'd like more top end, I believe we can probably tweak the crossover a bit to your liking. You're free to try the SB tweeter, but I think we can get you where you want to go by changing a few components in the filter for the ND28.

[Undefinition]

I would like to thank Paul for his nice design. I'm just finishing some stands for the mtm's so when I'm done I'll post some completed pics.

Absolutely. Coming from a guy with an avatar like yours, I'd love to see anything you built!

[tashspop]

It's two factors. One, the ND28 is a mellow tweeter. It's one of the un-hissiest tweeters I've ever used, and that's why I like it so much. Second, if you'd like more top end, I believe we can probably tweak the crossover a bit to your liking. You're free to try the SB tweeter, but I think we can get you where you want to go by changing a few components in the filter for the ND28.

i will trouble shoot what i have first to see if there's an issue and get back once i'm finished. are we talking about just a simple component change on the tweeter side of the xover?

[kiteflyer]

I'm interested in a smaller cabinet. Any chance you have a drawing of the sealed version?

[tashspop]

It's two factors. One, the ND28 is a mellow tweeter. It's one of the un-hissiest tweeters I've ever used, and that's why I like it so much. Second, if you'd like more top end, I believe we can probably tweak the crossover a bit to your liking. You're free to try the SB tweeter, but I think we can get you where you want to go by changing a few components in the filter for the ND28.

i guess the absolute only time i notice this is when i'm watching HD concerts and i play with surround settings vs. stereo settings. i get alot more detail (upper range instruments) that come out of my L and R. those instruments arent there (as much) when i allow the stereo to go digital surround because the center handles most of the sound at that point. i am unsure if making the speaker brighter will be an upgrade for me for regular tv watching. i think for now since i am in love with this speaker on movies i will leave it be as is. after all i have alot more swope building to do for all the other channels.

has anybody built or started to build these new TMWW's yet? i would love to see some pic's and impressions. :T

[Undefinition]

I'm interested in a smaller cabinet. Any chance you have a drawing of the sealed version?

Do you mean TMWW sealed? Bookshelf or floorstander? (I suppose if you did bookshelf, it'd have to be WTMW or something) No I don't have drawings of that, but I can try to get something together, or help you create them if you want.

[kiteflyer]

Bookshelf in the front of a living room. I'm thinking WTMW.
Cabinets that they would sit on are 33" tall and 24" deep.
I'd like to keep them around 24"-28" if possible.

Thank you for the email the other day--I'm the one who was looking for speaker advice.

[heapatrouble]

I actually built the system as a wmtw (top to bottom) and that's what I shopped out to Paul for the crossover design. I'm afraid I hold all the designs for my speakers in my head, but if you're interested, I could see if I could sketch something out. My speakers are 24.5" tall, deliberately designed to use half the width of a 49" x 97" piece of MDF.

[Undefinition]

I actually built the system as a wmtw (top to bottom) and that's what I shopped out to Paul for the crossover design. I'm afraid I hold all the designs for my speakers in my head, but if you're interested, I could see if I could sketch something out. My speakers are 24.5" tall, deliberately designed to use half the width of a 49" x 97" piece of MDF.

Yeah, even if you could just give us the rough dimensions, I could draw up something more "formal" after that, if people want. I regret not taking measurements down while the speakers were in my house.

[kiteflyer]

24.5" Tall is exactly the right height. WMTW would work great on my cabinets. How deep are they?

Have you put them in service yet? What kind of subs have you paired them with?

Paul, it would be awesome if you could draw a quick sketch.


I was also thinking that a slot port might look great on these.

Would a cabinet 25 tall, 9.5 wide, and 16 deep get close enough to 62.5 L??

[Jstslamd]

I'd really love to see a few pic of this build.

[Rudythecat]

I see the Swope CC has a 9" wide baffle - and this has a 10" one.
Was there a reason that you used the wider baffle on this model - like the need for less BSC?

I'm asking because I really like the look of narrower baffles and wondering if there's a reason these drivers wouldn't work in a 8.5" or 9" baffle. You seem to have the experience with these drivers to know if they would work with the appropriate changes to the crossover.

Thanks!

[djkest]

I see the Swope CC has a 9" wide baffle - and this has a 10" one.
Was there a reason that you used the wider baffle on this model - like the need for less BSC?

I'm asking because I really like the look of narrower baffles and wondering if there's a reason these drivers wouldn't work in a 8.5" or 9" baffle. You seem to have the experience with these drivers to know if they would work with the appropriate changes to the crossover.

Thanks!

Just guessing, I'm not Paul C here. I think the narrower baffle would work, but it really helps with the internal volume to have it be this wide. It's already fairly tall and fairly deep. Paul C used 30L for a single M6N on the ZX spectrum so yeah, it needs some room. Just my thoughts.

Looks like a sweet design though.

[Undefinition]

I see the Swope CC has a 9" wide baffle - and this has a 10" one.
Was there a reason that you used the wider baffle on this model - like the need for less BSC?

I'm asking because I really like the look of narrower baffles and wondering if there's a reason these drivers wouldn't work in a 8.5" or 9" baffle. You seem to have the experience with these drivers to know if they would work with the appropriate changes to the crossover.

Thanks!

Sorry I missed this post.

Sure you could go down to a 9" wide baffle... I wouldn't go much thinner, just because it might change the Baffle Step.

So if you do go thinner, remember that you'll have to make up for internal volume some way--either by going taller or deeper. The pair of M6A will need roughly 2 cubic feet. Any questions/design ideas, feel free to email me or post them here.

[heapatrouble]

No Updates

Sorry Paul, but I still barely have use of my right arm, and things are getting worse. Fine motor sills are mostly shot and I've not been able to do any of the finishing work on the speakers.

[cajun_duck]

I am interested in the sealed version as well, but as a floor standing as I will have a sub to acompany this. I am using it in a HT setup, but I would like to keep the cabinet about the same height. Or should I port it and go with a higher cutoff point for the woffers?

[cajun_duck]

go

Sorry to hear about motor skills. My wife is about to have major neck surgery.

[JeffKnob]

I am very interested in doing a sealed bookshelf version of this. How small of an enclosure could I get away with before changes to the crossover would need to be made? At a later time I would want to make a matching center. Would the Swopes center crossover be the correct one or would it best to just use this crossover? Of course the orientation of the mid and tweeter would be different for a center.

edit......I did a little more looking. If I kept the volume the same as with the Swopes CC but just changed the dimensions would that work? I would still keep the baffle over 9" like stated above.

Thanks.

[tashspop]

I am very interested in doing a sealed bookshelf version of this. How small of an enclosure could I get away with before changes to the crossover would need to be made? At a later time I would want to make a matching center. Would the Swopes center crossover be the correct one or would it best to just use this crossover? Of course the orientation of the mid and tweeter would be different for a center.

edit......I did a little more looking. If I kept the volume the same as with the Swopes CC but just changed the dimensions would that work? I would still keep the baffle over 9" like stated above.

Thanks.

i was thinking about the swope cc volume too, but keeping the tmww orientation. i just love the looks of some tall bookshelfs on mid height stands.

[djkest]

Awesome project. We may end up making 3 of these (L/C/R) w/ SB29RDCN tweeter. Will provide tons of info/pics if we do (if people want it)

Couple questions if you don't mind.

1) I like air cores. Would a 14 AWG Perfect Layer Air Core (DCR 0.36 ohm) be suffiecient for the woofer section, or would you go 12 AWG? Also thinking 14 gauge for the midrange (DCR 0.26 ohm), and 18 gauge (DCR 0.10 ohm) for the tweeter section. WWPCD?
2) Electrolytic vs. poly in the woofer section- will it make a difference? Electrolytic is $2, Poly is $28-30
3) If I use the SWOPE MT for surrounds, can I use the Dayton ND28F-6 tweeter (in combination with the SB29RDCN front speakers)? I'm thinking it would be fine.

last but not least:
4) If integrating this with multiple subs, should I build it sealed or ported- and does it matter if the subwoofers are also sealed or ported? I know there's something about phase alignments sealed vs/ ported. The center will of course be sealed.

[witchdr]

Paul, can I lay out the baffle like this?

[Undefinition]

1) I like air cores. Would a 14 AWG Perfect Layer Air Core (DCR 0.36 ohm) be suffiecient for the woofer section, or would you go 12 AWG? Also thinking 14 gauge for the midrange (DCR 0.26 ohm), and 18 gauge (DCR 0.10 ohm) for the tweeter section. WWPCD?

That DCR is plenty low. Basically, compare it at the DCR of an iron-core coil of the equivalent inductance, and see if it's in the ballpark. As long as we're not talking about values over 1 Ohm, I don't think there will be much of a problem.

2) Electrolytic vs. poly in the woofer section- will it make a difference? Electrolytic is $2, Poly is $28-30

I'm not ashamed to use electrolytics. You don't need to be either. :B

3) If I use the SWOPE MT for surrounds, can I use the Dayton ND28F-6 tweeter (in combination with the SB29RDCN front speakers)? I'm thinking it would be fine.

Yes, that'll be fine. The overall voicing is going to be very similar. The SB tweeter can extract more detail from a recording, but with a surround channel, I don't that's going to be an issue.

last but not least:
4) If integrating this with multiple subs, should I build it sealed or ported- and does it matter if the subwoofers are also sealed or ported? I know there's something about phase alignments sealed vs/ ported. The center will of course be sealed.

The way I look at it is if you have a ported cabinet, you can always seal it, but if you build a small sealed cabinet, you can never get that volume back. My personal preference is to listen to stuff on 2-channels whenever possible. I do have a sub hooked up to the receiver, so if I'm ever in the mood, I just hit the switch, and the mains switch to "small mode" (which uses a HP filter at 80 Hz... essentially, acting like sealed speakers) But this is all personal preference; I also like my coffee with cream and sugar, while others like it black, you know what I mean? If one were a "subs always on" kind of guy, then I suppose the vented cabs might be considered a waste.

[speeddemon]

Hello I am looking to build the Swope TMWW as well as the CC and TM's but I wanted to use the SB 29RDCN in all the boxes. Is there a crossover schematic for the CC and TM's using the SB 29RDCN tweeter?

[Undefinition]

Hi speeddemon,
The SB version of the Center Channel has the same crossover as the 3-ways (see post 2 in this thread).

Unfortunately, I don't have a version of the TM that uses the SB tweeter at this time. I hadn't really planned on it (and don't have the drivers on-hand, either). Honestly, I think you'd be safe with the Dayton tweeter in that design. it's a great tweeter, and I was really happy with the sound of that speaker.

[alphaiii]

Digging up an old thread here...

Has anyone posted formal cabinet dimensions for a smaller sealed tower and/or sealed bookshelf version of this 3-way design?

I'm particularly interested in a smaller tower...