What's the deal with "audiophiles" & their music?

[btf1980]

I put audiophile is quotes, but this is something that I have noticed with many audiophiles & it occurs far too often to be a coincidence.

I think many guys buy music because it is recorded well, rather than actually enjoying the music for the music. I can spot these guys a mile away because despite their really expensive gear, they have very little music. They have all the Diana Krall & Patricia Barber lps, Jennifer Warnes famous blue raincoat, but that's it. Maybe Pink Floyd and only DSOTM and nothing else from their library. If you told them Ummagumma, they would probably say "bless you".

I understand music is subjective, but NOT this subjective. Every last one of "these guys" have these demo records and have the same tastes. How is that possible? I go to trade shows, events, demo equipment, have friends who are dealers and it's the same thing - they all echo my sentiments so I know I'm not crazy. Seriously, go to any hifi show - I bet you someone is playing Diana Krall's lazy version of "The Look of love". I can't tell you how many times, much to the dismay of the older gents at a closed demo or whatever when I put in some music from Art Blakey, Eric Dolphy or Howlin' Wolf etc they almost fell over. I might as well have taken a dump on their chest.

What the hell happened? Why is "audiophile" music always the most boring, lame, contrite, lazy music in the world? Of course, I'm using audiophile loosely. There is a lot of greatly mastered music (AP, Music Matters etc), but why does every event bring out these Patricia Barber/Diana Krall disciples? They are the same ones who tell you that music sucks too, but refuse to listen to anything not reviewed in Stereophile. I don't get it or them.

Even the dealers & companies have accepted it. CES, Cedia etc - All the demo booths play either sleepy light jazz in the vein of Krall or lazy, tired standards. That's it! I can tell you one thing, if I was an outsider looking in, this hobby would be a really tough sell.

[r100gs]

Well recorded music is one thing, but if you don't like it's another thing. Most audio shows will play something like Diana Krall because it is well recorded. This is to help any setup sound better, comes down to sales. The secret is to find well recorded music that you like.

[Alaric]

I agree with r100gs. I was exposed to music I wouldn't have otherwise tried , simply because it was said to be masterfully performed and produced. Sheryl Crow's Tuesday Night Music Club comes to mind , as well as some Natalie Merchant. If you're going to demo a system it makes sense to pick music that accentuates a good system.
I have greatly expanded the categories of music I enjoy by looking for well recorded and produced music. I still love my old Black Sabbath vinyl (some of which suffers from horrible production) , and many others. A friend of mine is feeding B & W 801s with 1000 watts of tube amplification and has rock , classic rock , jazz , blues , and classical in his collection. He shows off his system with the best recordings he has. When we get together for an afternoon of jammin' we listen to all kinds of stuff. We include great recordings we like and music we love regardless of engineering.
I know of the folks you refer to , and they drive me nuts , too. But I think the "a" community is more diverse than you may be crediting them for. Just sayin'.

[Chris D]

I've had somewhat similar thoughts over the years. If nothing else, I've bemoaned the lack of hi-fi music from the styles and artists that ***I*** like, as well as some of the best music that has been made in the last 50 years. Where is U2 on DVD-Audio? Why do we not have a REFERENCE quality disc of the Joshua Tree? A reference remastered recording of John Lennon's "Imagine"? Elton John's original "Candle in the Wind"? Simon and Garfunkel's Greatest Hits on SACD? None of these are as "niche" as many of the recordings out there that **ARE** reference quality.

Yes, I'll buy that smooth, slower, quieter music from the jazz and classical genres give greater opportunity for hi-fi music to show clarity and really demonstrate what good quality recordings can do. Lots of heavy metal music has SO much sound in it, that spending the money to do a good remastering doesn't pay as much dividend as it would on the average classical piece. However, that doesn't necessarily mean that it wouldn't be worth it! I'd LOVE to have a reference recording of Metallica's "Enter Sandman" or Megadeth's "Symphony of Destruction". (note: I already own the best versions that exist for both)

There is SO much to be said for good MUSIC itself, not just good quality recordings. I'm not going to sit and listen to a test tone disc all day just because it may be of reference quality. Yes, there will always be the factor of personal taste in music, but there is so much POPULAR music out there that is ignored.

That is why Dire Strait's "Brothers in Arms" is my #1 musical demo material, specifically "Money for Nothing". It's not only a great quality RECORDING, and not just music that everybody RECOGNIZES, but it's also GREAT MUSIC!!! Fun to listen to, not just critically listen for hiss, echoes, pops, scratches, or other errors. That's why I play the MFN into for all my guests, and then **DARE** them not to be so caught up in the experience that they play air guitar when Knopfler hits his big introduction.

[Chris D]

What Lee says is true, too. I've discovered some of my greatest demo material from attending demos at dealers and other audiophiles, and finding out what they use. (some great music, too)

[Alaric]

Elton John's original "Candle in the Wind"?

I have "Goodbye Yellow Brick Road" on DVD Audio. Yes , it sounds great. Vinyl has also been a good source of stuff I like with great SQ. Lot of older albums were done pretty well. I still can't listen to Led Zeppelin on any CD. Picked up a 180 g "Nevermind" by Nirvana that is really good-and I love that album. But I'm probably not an audiophile-just a music lover that hates car radios.

[btf1980]

Well recorded music is one thing, but if you don't like it's another thing. Most audio shows will play something like Diana Krall because it is well recorded. This is to help any setup sound better, comes down to sales. The secret is to find well recorded music that you like.

I agree, but there is a lot of well recorded music apart from Diana Krall. I'm sorely convinced that the main reason why Krall has such a big audiophile following is because that is all they play at shows. I've had conversations with a lot of guys, and the first thing they talk about regarding her is "Oh, yes, her music is recorded so well." It's never, I like her music or singing. It's always from a technical standpoint. Who buys music not for enjoyment, but for technicalities? You can tell some don't like it, hell some will tell you. But, it's recorded well! How about the folks who don't like bluegrass but have Alison Krauss music? Hey, it's recorded well, who cares if they hate it! Music shouldn't be about enjoyment! :B

Now, imagine if they actually played something else! Or diversified the music. Maybe they could actually attract other people to the hobby.

[btf1980]

I know of the folks you refer to , and they drive me nuts , too. But I think the "a" community is more diverse than you may be crediting them for. Just sayin'.

I agree with this, but why is it always "those guys" who always show their faces in public? Where are the other people? They very rarely make the trek to trade shows, events etc. Do you think the perception of the old guy in the sweet spot tapping his foot to Diana Krall is a deterrent? :lol:

[ShadowZA]

For me, Chris has hit the nail on the head. I've been into rock bands such as Dire Straits, The Moody Blues, The Pretenders, The Police, U2 and have bemoaned the lack of "audiophile grade" recordings for a long time now. Yes, I love smooth jazz. But I love other stuff too. This is one of the reasons that I've gone ga-ga over Blu-ray. Stuff is starting to appear that, regarding the artist, can at least kick such artist's previously released studio work in the teeth (even though the Blu recordings are live).

Btw Dire Straits Live album "Alchemy" (1984) will be released on May 10 on Blu. Looks as though it might be a region B only disc. Not too sure.

The Joshua Tree as a reference quality piece should indeed be available.

Artists ... if you're reading this ... BRING IT ON!!!
:T

[dknightd]

The Joshua Tree as a reference quality piece should indeed be available.

The MFSL version is pretty good

[wkhanna]

I think one reason we hear the ‘same old lame’ music at events and gatherings is it is music just about everyone is V familiar with. Hence, anytime ‘audiophiles’ congregate these ‘played to death’ works inevitably appear. In many cases, I blame the audio retailers for creating and nurturing this phenomenon. Walk into any brick & mortar equipment retailer and look through the 30 or so SeeDee’s scattered around near their showcase demo set-up, & if you don’t find Diana Krall or Norah Jones, I’ll buy you a copy of Madeleine Peyoux ‘Dreamland’, or Art Pepper ‘+ Elleven’.

I understand they want to use the best quality recordings to promote their wares, and music just about everyone is familiar with, but somehow, people have gotten the idea that these are only type of recordings that deserve play on a ‘good’ system.

Then there are the ‘Gear Heads’. You know the ones. They are more interested in having the best equipment than a library of good music to listen to. 20k + rigs and 100 SeeDee’s. WTF!

The vast majority of my 600 LP library was purchased used. Trust me, many are not in the best of shape, but it is music I want, and I suffer the sometime poor fidelity gladly as I bask in blissful enjoyment of true art.

I will refer again to a recent article in Stereophile that proposes all ‘audiophiles’ have three basic requisites: Music; Quality; Ease of Access. How much importance you put on each individual category defines your ‘Audiophile Character’.

While I can make sense of this value system, I have to wonder..........
I always thought it was, first and foremost, all about the 'love' and intrinsic human 'need' of Music.

[Johnloudb]

Hi btf,

Yes I know what you mean. But, I really like Jennifer Warnes, both "The Hunter" and "Famous Blue Raincoat" ( which is made up of Leonard Cohen songs ). I like Dark Side of the Moon also and it is a good test record.

But, I understand what you mean about audiophiles being OCD about high quality ( or audiophile approved ) recordings and won't listen to anything else.

When I went to the Stereophile show years ago, I took some of my demo music which included a very nice Deutsch Gramophone recording with Shostakovich music. In one of the rooms I handed it to the guy running the demo, with some Avalon Eclipse Speakers. He actually turned up his nose and said "Awe, a Deutch Gramophone recording." They had a bad rep in audiophile circles.

Then a Stereophile Reviewer walked in and the guy running the demo asked if he could take the music off. I said okay, but the Reviewer stopped him and said it was nice and would like to hear it.

So, yeah, some audiophiles get a bit out there, and are biased against non audiophile approved labels and such.

[btf1980]

Hi btf,

Yes I know what you mean. But, I really like Jennifer Warnes, both "The Hunter" and "Famous Blue Raincoat" ( which is made up of Leonard Cohen songs ). I like Dark Side of the Moon also and it is a good test record.

I don't think Warnes & Floyd are bad artists at all. I'm a big PF fan. It's just that these guys only want to play DSOTM, not just for testing either. It's almost like PF never released other albums at all to them.

[Chris D]

Wait, Pink Floyd has more albums than DSOTM? (kidding... although I'm not a PF fan myself, so DSOTM is the only one I own)

In general, I'm very disappointed in the lack of highest-quality recordings, in rock music, or popular music in general. Audio listening on any given setup will be limited by the limiting factor of the entire system--a player, cable, speaker, etc, that isn't up to the quality level of the rest of the system. For many of us in this hobby, we've painstakingly upgraded EVERY component of our system over time to such a high level, that it's the SOURCE MATERIAL that ends up being the limiting factor! Our systems reveal distortion, thin sound, pops, hisses, cracks, imbalance across the spectrum, etc.

So in the end, for a lot of us, we end up having to choose between either listening to music we ENJOY, or music that is recorded WELL. This isn't right--we should be able to do both!

[Alaric]

Yup. Unfortunately , what will be "classic" in 20 years is "pop" today. And mp3 and car radios don't really care how well it's produced. As long as it's loud and fuzzy it must be good-after all , the DJ taking the graft said it's good. No offense to any DJs out there. Just makin' a point.

[bigburner]

I have often wondered why the level of interest in music is so low in this forum. Perhaps this is a gear-only forum and I should really be posting about music elsewhere, but my fellow members are too polite to tell me? Perhaps talking about your music preferences for many people is like talking about your sex life (i.e. you just don't do it)?

A new post entitled "Krell is better than Classé" will attract thousands of hits. Posting about a groundbreaking new album will attract virtually no interest at all.

I have concluded that a high proportion of audiophiles are not music lovers, and vice versa. The majority of audiophiles enjoy high quality, high precision, good looking equipment, and derive their pleasure from pride of ownership. The fact that the equipment plays music is almost incidental.

Then again I could be wrong...

Nigel.

[btf1980]

I have often wondered why the level of interest in music is so low in this forum. Perhaps this is a gear-only forum and I should really be posting about music elsewhere, but my fellow members are too polite to tell me? Perhaps talking about your music preferences for many people is like talking about your sex life (i.e. you just don't do it)?

A new post entitled "Krell is better than Classé" will attract thousands of hits. Posting about a groundbreaking new album will attract virtually no interest at all.

I have concluded that a high proportion of audiophiles are not music lovers, and vice versa. The majority of audiophiles enjoy high quality, high precision, good looking equipment, and derive their pleasure from pride of ownership. The fact that the equipment plays music is almost incidental.

Then again I could be wrong...

Nigel.

A great forum for music is the Steve Hoffman forums. Hoffman is a legendary engineer who has mastered a lot of great music, and he's very active on the site.

http://www.stevehoffman.tv/forums/

[Johnloudb]

I have often wondered why the level of interest in music is so low in this forum.

Hi Nigel,

This is more of a tech forum, I guess, but I think there is lot of interest in music here. Everyone has different tastes in music, and one person's Mozart is another person's Madonna. I've bought a few things on recommend from various members and loved some of it and not cared for some of it.

I enjoy seeing and reading the comments you post on various artists in the DVD thread. And enjoy learning about Blues musicians - Really like the Freddy King DVD I bought, BTW. But, I'm not familiar with most blues artists.

As for Jazz, I found a Miles Davis SACD in my dad's collection and I don't like it at all. It sounds like notes sputtering in all different directions. I know some people hear like him. I like Dave Brubeck, Stan Getz, and Thelonious Monk ....

But if I buy too much music ... I won't have enough money for the 12 tweeters I need for my dipole speakers.

[Alaric]

Hmmm.... I actually see your point. But I wonder if this site assumes you have already picked your music , and this is the place to help with the equipment? While I understand the frustration , I like the fact that this site gives me all the options.

[David Meek]

I have often wondered why the level of interest in music is so low in this forum...

Nigel, that's why I started my World Tour thread in Audio rather than In Tune - just to get more views (and maybe more posts).

It's true that there are many more posts/threads with regard to hardware, but maybe that's because the hardware is where most of the questions lie. Could it be because the music itself doesn't present that many difficulties other than whether a recording is well done or not? We all have gear in varying levels of cost, complexity and capability, but it is all there to allow us to play the music to our satisfaction.

Isn't it?

[bigburner]

Nigel, that's why I started my World Tour thread in Audio rather than In Tune - just to get more views (and maybe more posts).

It's a great thread David. My CD heap has increased in height as a result of that thread.

Nigel.

[sunshdw]

I put audiophile is quotes, but this is something that I have noticed with many audiophiles & it occurs far too often to be a coincidence.

I think many guys buy music because it is recorded well, rather than actually enjoying the music for the music. I can spot these guys a mile away because despite their really expensive gear, they have very little music. They have all the Diana Krall & Patricia Barber lps, Jennifer Warnes famous blue raincoat, but that's it. Maybe Pink Floyd and only DSOTM and nothing else from their library. If you told them Ummagumma, they would probably say "bless you".

I understand music is subjective, but NOT this subjective. Every last one of "these guys" have these demo records and have the same tastes. How is that possible? I go to trade shows, events, demo equipment, have friends who are dealers and it's the same thing - they all echo my sentiments so I know I'm not crazy. Seriously, go to any hifi show - I bet you someone is playing Diana Krall's lazy version of "The Look of love". I can't tell you how many times, much to the dismay of the older gents at a closed demo or whatever when I put in some music from Art Blakey, Eric Dolphy or Howlin' Wolf etc they almost fell over. I might as well have taken a dump on their chest.

What the hell happened? Why is "audiophile" music always the most boring, lame, contrite, lazy music in the world? Of course, I'm using audiophile loosely. There is a lot of greatly mastered music (AP, Music Matters etc), but why does every event bring out these Patricia Barber/Diana Krall disciples? They are the same ones who tell you that music sucks too, but refuse to listen to anything not reviewed in Stereophile. I don't get it or them.

Even the dealers & companies have accepted it. CES, Cedia etc - All the demo booths play either sleepy light jazz in the vein of Krall or lazy, tired standards. That's it! I can tell you one thing, if I was an outsider looking in, this hobby would be a really tough sell.

As I lean back in my chair and think of a good response to this without creating a flame war, I'm reminded of a music mishap I had. I belong to The Boise Audiophile Club here and when I first started going, I brought along one of my favorite CDs, Godsmack The Otherside. For those of you that don't know this is an acustical version of some of their songs. The host asked the crowd of people if anyone brought something to play. Of course I raised my hand and he asked me what it was. "Godsmack" I said proudly, and not only did I get a glare of displeasure from the host but I could feel the "WTF is that crap" stare from everyone else. Walking back to the sweet spot chair I assured everyone to just listen. I played the song titled "asleep" and when it was finished I was let off the hook and everyone seemed pleased. I grabbed my CD and said to everyone " I realize that's a left field type of cd but sometimes you have to think out of your comfort zone."

I fully agree with you as far as the repeditive nature of Diana Krall, Jennifer Warnes etc however I do listen to those people as well as many other different genres. When I demo my system I tend to play something that I know they listen to. My friend Jake is a HUGE Jack Johnson fan so when he first heard my new set up that's what I played. I've used Alice n Chains, Norah Jones, Dead Can Dance, Kings of Leon, Roger Waters and Ray Charles to demo as well.

I also feel that some of the "Review of the Month club" AKA "audiophiles" that I've met can be very narrow minded as far as accepting a piece of music that isn't an offshoot of the standard Krall and Barber. I guess I prefer to enjoy the music playing rather than what the music does to make my system sound "better." See sig vvvv

[Chris D]

Cool. At first, I thought you said you belonged to the BOSE Audiophile Club.

[David Meek]

Cool. At first, I thought you said you belonged to the BOSE Audiophile Club.

I misread that sentence the exact same way! ops: Sorry, sunshdw.

[stuofsci02]

I definately buy music because it is recorded well... I have my music for the car (where a bad system does not show the poor recording) and I have my music for my stereo system.

A lot of the reason the demo CDs are the female artists you mention is because the female voice is one of the hardest things for a system to reproduce. Also why show what a systems can do with poorly recorded music.

If someone is going to spend the money on expensive gear to give them that "I'm there" feeling, why would they use poorly recorded music that might even sound better on a system with less resolution.

If I want to show off my HD tv, I don't run old episodes of Cheers. It is the same with Music. That off course may limit me to certain artists and certain genres.

I don't think this is a flaw with Audiophiles.. It is a flaw with the music industry and people... My beef isn't with audiophiles, it is with people who use IPODs with MP3s off Itunes.. Music now needs to be mixed poorly so that you can hear all the instruments on an Ipod in MP3 format..

I put audiophile is quotes, but this is something that I have noticed with many audiophiles & it occurs far too often to be a coincidence.

I think many guys buy music because it is recorded well, rather than actually enjoying the music for the music. I can spot these guys a mile away because despite their really expensive gear, they have very little music. They have all the Diana Krall & Patricia Barber lps, Jennifer Warnes famous blue raincoat, but that's it. Maybe Pink Floyd and only DSOTM and nothing else from their library. If you told them Ummagumma, they would probably say "bless you".

I understand music is subjective, but NOT this subjective. Every last one of "these guys" have these demo records and have the same tastes. How is that possible? I go to trade shows, events, demo equipment, have friends who are dealers and it's the same thing - they all echo my sentiments so I know I'm not crazy. Seriously, go to any hifi show - I bet you someone is playing Diana Krall's lazy version of "The Look of love". I can't tell you how many times, much to the dismay of the older gents at a closed demo or whatever when I put in some music from Art Blakey, Eric Dolphy or Howlin' Wolf etc they almost fell over. I might as well have taken a dump on their chest.

What the hell happened? Why is "audiophile" music always the most boring, lame, contrite, lazy music in the world? Of course, I'm using audiophile loosely. There is a lot of greatly mastered music (AP, Music Matters etc), but why does every event bring out these Patricia Barber/Diana Krall disciples? They are the same ones who tell you that music sucks too, but refuse to listen to anything not reviewed in Stereophile. I don't get it or them.

Even the dealers & companies have accepted it. CES, Cedia etc - All the demo booths play either sleepy light jazz in the vein of Krall or lazy, tired standards. That's it! I can tell you one thing, if I was an outsider looking in, this hobby would be a really tough sell.

[Alaric]

I definately buy music because it is recorded well... I have my music for the car (where a bad system does not show the poor recording) and I have my music for my stereo system.

A lot of the reason the demo CDs are the female artists you mention is because the female voice is one of the hardest things for a system to reproduce. Also why show what a systems can do with poorly recorded music.

If someone is going to spend the money on expensive gear to give them that "I'm there" feeling, why would they use poorly recorded music that might even sound better on a system with less resolution.

If I want to show off my HD tv, I don't run old episodes of Cheers. It is the same with Music. That off course may limit me to certain artists and certain genres.

I don't think this is a flaw with Audiophiles.. It is a flaw with the music industry and people... My beef isn't with audiophiles, it is with people who use IPODs with MP3s off Itunes.. Music now needs to be mixed poorly so that you can hear all the instruments on an Ipod in MP3 format..

Bingo!

[1oldguy]

I have often wondered why the level of interest in music is so low in this forum. Perhaps this is a gear-only forum and I should really be posting about music elsewhere, but my fellow members are too polite to tell me? Perhaps talking about your music preferences for many people is like talking about your sex life (i.e. you just don't do it)?

A new post entitled "Krell is better than Classé" will attract thousands of hits. Posting about a groundbreaking new album will attract virtually no interest at all.

I have concluded that a high proportion of audiophiles are not music lovers, and vice versa. The majority of audiophiles enjoy high quality, high precision, good looking equipment, and derive their pleasure from pride of ownership. The fact that the equipment plays music is almost incidental.

Then again I could be wrong...

Nigel.

You may be wrong ....But I would have to agree with you . ;x(

[technodanvan]

I have concluded that a high proportion of audiophiles are not music lovers, and vice versa. The majority of audiophiles enjoy high quality, high precision, good looking equipment, and derive their pleasure from pride of ownership. The fact that the equipment plays music is almost incidental.

Then again I could be wrong...

Nigel, I think you hit the nail on the head. Certainly doesn't cover all cases by any means, and certainly there are people who prefer Diana Krall and Norah Jones over listening to anything else simply because they like her that much...but why not play David Bowie's Ziggy Stardust or James Taylor's Hourglass when demoing? Arguably jazz can only test a system so much, and I very much feel that you will simply not be able to get a feel for the dynamics a system offers while listening to the slow jazz music.

That of course may be the problem as well.

I don't pretend to think that my DIY speakers are the greatest on the planet - I put a lot of time and effort into making them and certainly they sound absolutely great...on most things.

Can they faithfully recreate jazz? No problem.

Classic rock? Bring it on.

Rap/Pop? Sure, when the mood strikes.

Metal or Alt Rock? Hell no.

Which isn't to say I don't like metal or alternative, there are many bands that I listen to all the time, or at least would like to. Problem is 'shredding' sounds absolutely terrible on my DIY speakers - it's like you can hear every individual string being plucked in place of the chord you're supposed to hear. Just awful, so I generally don't listen to it very much at home anymore...unless it's via an mp3 player over earbuds.

At this point I focus so much on it that it's annoying - it's a great excuse to build another set of speakers later this year too.

In any case, I have to wonder if 'audiophiles' don't key in on certain aspects of music like that and can simply not enjoy some forms because of it. Not all speakers can create music that sounds as it should - and through no fault of their own. The recordings themselves have likely been 'mushed' in some areas, because inexpensive speakers will still create the sound they're supposed to without additional engineering.

This turned a bit longer than I thought it would...

In any case, my last supporting thought for the quote above switches gears to another hobby of mine - computer building and overclocking. If you go to overclocking forums you will see insane discussions with people dropping thousands and thousands of dollars into crazy gaming computers, exotic cooling, multiple monitors, and 'extreme' processors and motherboards that let them speed their computers up by 50% or more. Then you'll see they average 20-30 posts per day on the forum - suggesting that once said computer is built, the most they do with it is the same as I do with my inexpensive laptop. Then they'll upgrade in 6 months.

I know, because I did that a lot in college. Except in my case I then played a lot of Diablo II - which also would have run fine on a laptop, and in some cases would have run better than on the supercomputer!

But does any of that make them in the wrong, or any different really than an 'audiophile' that perhaps prefers to own all of the exotic gear, but maybe doesn't really enjoy music?

I don't really see a problem, provided of course the funds are there...until people try to justify it without having anything to back it up.

As it is, I'm still trying to justify my recent Emotiva purchases, trying to determine if what I have gained is worth the (arguably) minimal cost.

And I'm still planning on finishing a computer this summer that has thus far cost over $1000...just for the case. Will I game on it? Yeah, a little. Will I need the 30" monitor I plan on getting? Nope, but I'm going to get it anyway.

Just gotta know what the score is, and understand your hobbies and where they truly set. If listening to music is your hobby, embrace it! If building stuff is your hobby, embrace it! If collecting expensive toys is your hobby, embrace it! (and become my best friend)

[1oldguy]

Nigel, I think you hit the nail on the head. Certainly doesn't cover all cases by any means, and certainly there are people who prefer Diana Krall and Norah Jones over listening to anything else simply because they like her that much...but why not play David Bowie's Ziggy Stardust or James Taylor's Hourglass when demoing? Arguably jazz can only test a system so much, and I very much feel that you will simply not be able to get a feel for the dynamics a system offers while listening to the slow jazz music.

That of course may be the problem as well.

I don't pretend to think that my DIY speakers are the greatest on the planet - I put a lot of time and effort into making them and certainly they sound absolutely great...on most things.

Can they faithfully recreate jazz? No problem.

Classic rock? Bring it on.

Rap/Pop? Sure, when the mood strikes.

Metal or Alt Rock? Hell no.

Which isn't to say I don't like metal or alternative, there are many bands that I listen to all the time, or at least would like to. Problem is 'shredding' sounds absolutely terrible on my DIY speakers - it's like you can hear every individual string being plucked in place of the chord you're supposed to hear. Just awful, so I generally don't listen to it very much at home anymore...unless it's via an mp3 player over earbuds.

At this point I focus so much on it that it's annoying - it's a great excuse to build another set of speakers later this year too.

In any case, I have to wonder if 'audiophiles' don't key in on certain aspects of music like that and can simply not enjoy some forms because of it. Not all speakers can create music that sounds as it should - and through no fault of their own. The recordings themselves have likely been 'mushed' in some areas, because inexpensive speakers will still create the sound they're supposed to without additional engineering.

This turned a bit longer than I thought it would...

In any case, my last supporting thought for the quote above switches gears to another hobby of mine - computer building and overclocking. If you go to overclocking forums you will see insane discussions with people dropping thousands and thousands of dollars into crazy gaming computers, exotic cooling, multiple monitors, and 'extreme' processors and motherboards that let them speed their computers up by 50% or more. Then you'll see they average 20-30 posts per day on the forum - suggesting that once said computer is built, the most they do with it is the same as I do with my inexpensive laptop. Then they'll upgrade in 6 months.

I know, because I did that a lot in college. Except in my case I then played a lot of Diablo II - which also would have run fine on a laptop, and in some cases would have run better than on the supercomputer!

But does any of that make them in the wrong, or any different really than an 'audiophile' that perhaps prefers to own all of the exotic gear, but maybe doesn't really enjoy music?

I don't really see a problem, provided of course the funds are there...until people try to justify it without having anything to back it up.

As it is, I'm still trying to justify my recent Emotiva purchases, trying to determine if what I have gained is worth the (arguably) minimal cost.

And I'm still planning on finishing a computer this summer that has thus far cost over $1000...just for the case. Will I game on it? Yeah, a little. Will I need the 30" monitor I plan on getting? Nope, but I'm going to get it anyway.

Just gotta know what the score is, and understand your hobbies and where they truly set. If listening to music is your hobby, embrace it! If building stuff is your hobby, embrace it! If collecting expensive toys is your hobby, embrace it! (and become my best friend)

You sir make a lot of sense.As a side note I'm soon about to build a new PC as well.What are you using for a PC Case that costs that much?
I recently bought the corsair 800D along with a nice 27 inch monitor both still in boxes awaiting for me to get the rest of the gear. ;x(

[technodanvan]

You sir make a lot of sense.As a side note I'm soon about to build a new PC as well.What are you using for a PC Case that costs that much?
I recently bought the corsair 800D along with a nice 27 inch monitor both still in boxes awaiting for me to get the rest of the gear. ;x(

A full size Lian-Li that is being modded with a lot of chrome hardware (god they're expensive) and a bunch of sapele wood accents. I'm including some watercooling parts in that cost (including a $200 pump) so the figure is skewed a bit, I guess.

The Corsair is nice too...sometimes i really, really wish I just put the thing together and was done with it. Ah well, it's still fun. Hoping to get some more work done this weekend after a month of too much 'real' work.

[1oldguy]

A full size Lian-Li that is being modded with a lot of chrome hardware (god they're expensive) and a bunch of sapele wood accents. I'm including some watercooling parts in that cost (including a $200 pump) so the figure is skewed a bit, I guess.

The Corsair is nice too...sometimes i really, really wish I just put the thing together and was done with it. Ah well, it's still fun. Hoping to get some more work done this weekend after a month of too much 'real' work.

Would be great to see a few picks of it when your done.

[technodanvan]

Would be great to see a few picks of it when your done.

I'll see what I can do...since it will undoubtedly be used for a little music/movies watching every now and then I could probably argue it deserves a build log here at HTGuide.

We'll see what happens when I get geared back into it. I'm hoping for two solid days of work on this upcoming extended weekend...

In any case, I'm way OT so I'll shut up now.

[Alaric]

Nigel, I think you hit the nail on the head. Certainly doesn't cover all cases by any means, and certainly there are people who prefer Diana Krall and Norah Jones over listening to anything else simply because they like her that much...but why not play David Bowie's Ziggy Stardust or James Taylor's Hourglass when demoing? Arguably jazz can only test a system so much, and I very much feel that you will simply not be able to get a feel for the dynamics a system offers while listening to the slow jazz music.

That of course may be the problem as well.

I don't pretend to think that my DIY speakers are the greatest on the planet - I put a lot of time and effort into making them and certainly they sound absolutely great...on most things.

Can they faithfully recreate jazz? No problem. :T

Classic rock? Bring it on.

Rap/Pop? Sure, when the mood strikes.

Metal or Alt Rock? Hell no.

Which isn't to say I don't like metal or alternative, there are many bands that I listen to all the time, or at least would like to. Problem is 'shredding' sounds absolutely terrible on my DIY speakers - it's like you can hear every individual string being plucked in place of the chord you're supposed to hear. Just awful, so I generally don't listen to it very much at home anymore...unless it's via an mp3 player over earbuds.

At this point I focus so much on it that it's annoying - it's a great excuse to build another set of speakers later this year too.

In any case, I have to wonder if 'audiophiles' don't key in on certain aspects of music like that and can simply not enjoy some forms because of it. Not all speakers can create music that sounds as it should - and through no fault of their own. The recordings themselves have likely been 'mushed' in some areas, because inexpensive speakers will still create the sound they're supposed to without additional engineering.

This turned a bit longer than I thought it would...

In any case, my last supporting thought for the quote above switches gears to another hobby of mine - computer building and overclocking. If you go to overclocking forums you will see insane discussions with people dropping thousands and thousands of dollars into crazy gaming computers, exotic cooling, multiple monitors, and 'extreme' processors and motherboards that let them speed their computers up by 50% or more. Then you'll see they average 20-30 posts per day on the forum - suggesting that once said computer is built, the most they do with it is the same as I do with my inexpensive laptop. Then they'll upgrade in 6 months.

I know, because I did that a lot in college. Except in my case I then played a lot of Diablo II - which also would have run fine on a laptop, and in some cases would have run better than on the supercomputer!

But does any of that make them in the wrong, or any different really than an 'audiophile' that perhaps prefers to own all of the exotic gear, but maybe doesn't really enjoy music?

I don't really see a problem, provided of course the funds are there...until people try to justify it without having anything to back it up.

As it is, I'm still trying to justify my recent Emotiva purchases, trying to determine if what I have gained is worth the (arguably) minimal cost.

And I'm still planning on finishing a computer this summer that has thus far cost over $1000...just for the case. Will I game on it? Yeah, a little. Will I need the 30" monitor I plan on getting? Nope, but I'm going to get it anyway.

Just gotta know what the score is, and understand your hobbies and where they truly set. If listening to music is your hobby, embrace it! If building stuff is your hobby, embrace it! If collecting expensive toys is your hobby, embrace it! (and become my best friend)

Dude , I felt silly spending $500 on a DIY barebones kit. I admire your attitude!

[technodanvan]

Dude , I felt silly spending $500 on a DIY barebones kit. I admire your attitude!

Haha, I'm just dumb with what little money I have. When it comes to audio I weigh my choices carefully and have to balance performance, cost, and aesthetics. Fortunately Emotiva has supplied (I think) the best combo I've seen thus far...though it is difficult to determine a 'worth' in the sound quality gained. Frankly while it is noticeably better to even my skeptical ears I have to think that, for the money, I would have enjoyed building another set or two of speakers.

But in order to really get into DIY speakerbuilding, I needed a real amp anyway, so in the long run it'll pan out, provided I don't get sucked into that 'upgrade all the time' feel I have for computers.

Computers are another matter though...throwing new computer parts on a credit card is the easiest thing in the world for me, probably comparable to buying CD's on Amazon. Definitely a problem when I don't keep it in check, and definitely one of those things I go on a month-long spurt then spend a couple paychecks paying off.

Still, I enjoy it, and I think that's what matters the most. At least until a woman I enjoy comes along and breaks me of my expensive hobbies so I can blow money on her instead. Which I would probably be okay with too, as long as the music sticks around. h:

I think everyone has these things though. You see it when it comes to shopping for clothes, or buying movies, food, drinks, or upgrades for your car or motorcycle, or any number of other things - people get attached to buying stuff of a certain category without even thinking about it. I think some 'audiophiles' get stuck in the loop of one of the most expensive hobbies you can be part of. To me, when I first recognized I was stuck in that loop(in regards to computers) I become extremely dissatisfied with my gear to the point I didn't really use them anymore, and that may well be what happens to these audiophiles and their music - they listen to Krall becomes it is a reflexive gesture of something they used to enjoy but no longer can.

Purely subjective reasoning here of course, and probably not true for the vast majority of audiophiles with limited taste in music...but I imagine it's not terribly far off the case for some.

Man, I think way too much. And certainly make WAY too many assumptions about people. I probably need to work on that...

[Alaric]

Dude , you sound almost as screwed up as me. I can respect that.

[wettou]

They have all the Diana Krall & Patricia Barber lps, Jennifer Warnes famous blue raincoat, but that's it. Maybe Pink Floyd and only DSOTM and nothing else from their library. If you told them Ummagumma, they would probably say "bless you".

I understand music is subjective, but NOT this subjective. Every last one of "these guys" have these demo records and have the same tastes.

What the hell happened? Why is "audiophile" music always the most boring, lame, contrite, lazy music in the world? Of course, I'm using audiophile loosely. There is a lot of greatly mastered music (AP, Music Matters etc), but why does every event bring out these Patricia Barber/Diana Krall disciples? They are the same ones who tell you that music sucks too, but refuse to listen to anything not reviewed in Stereophile. I don't get it or them.

Even the dealers & companies have accepted it. CES, Cedia etc - All the demo booths play either sleepy light jazz in the vein of Krall or lazy, tired standards. That's it! I can tell you one thing, if I was an outsider looking in, this hobby would be a really tough sell.

Agreed, it's always the same elevator music you hear which s why I always bring my ipod when I go and demo a system. At least I can play a diversity of music uncompressed.

Far from considering myself as an audiophile, I love music and I have decent gear Classé and B&W 802Ds, but I can't stand Jazzy labels, Diana Krall and the like they s...

I have over 700 CDs with music from around the world from classical to rock in every genre you can think off including rap.

Here are some Favorite, Jem, Mylene Farmer, Cesaria Evora, Lina, Sade, Norah Jones, Lady Gaga, Annie Lennox, Katy Perry, Depeche Mode, Classic rocks like the Beattles, Elvis, Stones, Nirvana, Bowie, Pink Floyd, Franky Goes to Hollywood, Billy Idol, George Michael, Jacksons, Polino Mosca, Eurythmics, 50 cent, Maroon 5, U2, James Brown, Antonio Carlo Joabim, Stan Getz, Black Eyed Peas, Morry Kante.... and all classical composers especially Mozart, Beethoven, Dvorak, Tchaikovsky, Bach, Ravel.... especially recorded by Linn

Any way my point is there is so much music that it would be a shame to only listen to "Audiophile labels" like Chesky and the likes

[technodanvan]

Dude , you sound almost as screwed up as me. I can respect that.

Word. :T

Any way my point is there is so much music that it would be a shame to only listen to "Audiophile labels" like Chesky and the likes

Totally agree...I keep on buying random music or at least other albums by old bands just looking to discover what else can be done...sometimes I'm crazy unsatisfied (I'm looking at you Piper at the Gates of CRAP!) and other times I'm completely blown away (to keep with the PK theme, Animals very much comes to mind).

It's just another form of art that one can spend ages analyzing, and I think at some point there is a lot to be learned from music and apply towards improving yourself and dealing with those around you.

[1oldguy]

they listen to Krall becomes it is a reflexive gesture of something they used to enjoy but no longer can.



Man, I think way too much. And certainly make WAY too many assumptions about people. I probably need to work on that...[/QUOTE]

1St Guy....What speakers do you have
2nd Guy.... Just bought 802D's
1St Guy.....You must love Diana Krall on those puppies
2nd Guy.....Um no...Don't have any thing by her
1St Guy.....Walks Away scratching head

:T I sometimes wonder if were are into music for the right reasons.For some I;m sure we are,for others it's a pissing contest.My two cent's.

[wettou]

:T I sometimes wonder if were are into music for the right reasons.For some I;m sure we are,for others it's a pissing contest.My two cent's.

It is a Jone's thing mine is bigger than yours :W!

"To live happy live hidden" Old Chinese Saying

[technodanvan]

:T I sometimes wonder if were are into music for the right reasons.For some I;m sure we are,for others it's a pissing contest.My two cent's.

Pretty sure mine is a mixture. I guess I'm honest enough to admit when I have trouble differentiating a need versus a want. Shoot, I already want to upgrade to Emotiva's next line of crazy powerful amps despite the fact I have an XPA-2 that is very, very clearly more power than I need.

And now I get to wage psychological warfare against myself again to prevent that purchase from happening. Super.

[Alaric]

I actually spent most of my music purchases on recapturing my audio youth. I've found some good new(er) stuff in the process , but 'Long , Cool Woman' by The Hollies is a killer recording I can play several times during a listening session. By the same token , I acquired Nirvana's 'Nevermind' on vinyl a while back and will probably wear it out. Plant and Krauss on 'Raising Sand' is another recent one I love that was well done.
Some of my favorite stuff sounds awful. Hard to find Black Sabbath that doesn't sound like it was recorded/produced at the bottom of a swimming pool.
My equipment was to recapture a system from my youth , as well. At least I didn't need the Nak cassette deck this time! So far I've been fairly satisfied with my system. I'd like to DIY some lower-cost speakers , and I'd like to pull off an amp upgrade at some point , but I'm generally OK with what I have.
Wow. That was a ramble....

[MikeK]

"Long Cool Woman" is an exceptional recording. I use it often to demo my rig. It is very clean sounding and everyone has heard it...or so they thought. Its neat to see their eyes open wide when they hear it really for the first time.

As for the playing of "smokey jazz" at audio shows, well....thats what they do mostly.

One year I was at RMAF (Rocky Mountain Audio Festival) and I walked into the MBL room to hear their big Radialstrahler speakers.



They were of course playing a smokey jazz selection and the room was packed. Then the MBL guy did something I had never seen a rep do. He popped out the lounge music and put in a copy of The Pussycat Dolls "Don't you wish your girfriend was hot".

Man, it sounded great. Maybe it wasnt the greatest music but it had some real thumping bass and some pretty good production values. And...it was very refreshing to see a manufacturers rep change up the tunes.

It did however clear the room of listeners.

I stayed, and probably about 5 other guys. When the tune was over I applauded and said loudly, "Thanks for playing something other than the usual smokey cabaret singers, and the other guys agreed.

So, there are a growing number of us that like something other than "lite" music (even though I like lite music too) to be used to demo audio systems. I walked away impressed with the company for doing an unusual demo...and the speakers sounded fantastic!

Mike

[2gumby2]

I consider myself to be an audiophile and I listen to Gabber, Industrial, Stoner Rock, pipe organ music, and a variety of other genres as well. No Rap/Hip Hop or Country though. I have about 3,500 CDs, about 300 LPs, and a few cassettes.

[scarpi]

I too consider myself an audiophile and I listen to Ray Brown Trio, Oscar Peterson, Gene Harris, Brian Bromberg, Trish Turner, alot of piano trio jazz. I have many cds, and enjoy vinyl on my system. :T

[Industrial]

I consider myself to be an audiophile and I listen to Gabber, Industrial, Stoner Rock, pipe organ music, and a variety of other genres as well. No Rap/Hip Hop or Country though. I have about 3,500 CDs, about 300 LPs, and a few cassettes.

Woo an industrial fan! Nothing like gabber at 200bpm plus to get yoU motivated..