Reference quality DIY Speaker Recommendation

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  • jweb09
    Junior Member
    • Feb 2010
    • 12

    Reference quality DIY Speaker Recommendation

    Gentleman,

    I understand that most folks get into DIY speakers since they represent value for money (Now of course there are others who do it as a passion & hobby)

    I am looking for some ideas on speaker design that satisfies following requirements:
    a) Has very high levels of transparency
    b) Size is not more than 40 liters
    c) Has lowest possible bass extension in the size limit

    Now I am aware of iron's law (pick two of 3; sensitivity, size and bass extension). As you can see two I have picked are size and bass extension. I also understand that considering the size restriction I have, there is only so much bass you can get

    As for value for money, Orion speakers can cost anywhere from 3K to 8K but considering what you get for that price, it is great value for money. My point here being I am looking for the best out there and that is not going to come cheap.

    Look forward to getting few rich ideas. I am very ok with even just the drivers for two speakers costing as much as $2K - $3K

    Jim
  • cjd
    Ultra Senior Member
    • Dec 2004
    • 5568

    #2
    40L? You may be interested in the Ansonica. Though I don't remember the actual volume that'll end up being. 9.5"x15x34" box, tuned to 24Hz on the port...

    C
    diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

    Comment

    • Silversmoky
      Senior Member
      • Nov 2007
      • 178

      #3
      Check out some of Jed's designs. He has lots of options & will customize for you as well.

      The Minuet5B or C52 might be of interest to you.

      Comment

      • cjd
        Ultra Senior Member
        • Dec 2004
        • 5568

        #4
        Basically...

        Pick a design. If it meets your size/output requirements, it'll meet your fidelity needs.
        diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

        Comment

        • jweb09
          Junior Member
          • Feb 2010
          • 12

          #5
          Jed seems to have some really good design. The one that I was most interested was Duet 10. While Aria sounds really cool too, my wife will not approve open waffle speaker. However Duet 10 was slightly on the larger size. But I guess if one goes with a 10" driver, that is probably the smallest size one is looking at.

          Any other recommendations?

          Comment

          • Rick Craig
            Senior Member
            • Jul 2006
            • 391

            #6
            You might consider running the woofer with a plate amp that can provide some equalization. This can give you a compact sealed box and a -3db point in the 30-40hz range depending on the woofer.

            Comment

            • Jonasz
              Senior Member
              • Nov 2004
              • 852

              #7
              So why not build the Orion? They do sound great! :T

              If you want something smaller and you like the Seas Excel sound you can always ask Jed to design a MTM with either the SS 6600 or D2608/913000 and the Seas Excel W16NX. Should be a great sounding speaker! :P

              http://www.seas.no/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=67&Itemi d=91

              Click image for larger version

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              Comment

              • Jonasz
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2004
                • 852

                #8
                Oh, almost forgot, the Seas Thor/Odin design with Jimangies modified crossover should also be a great sounding speaker for their size.

                Is it possible to design a different crossover using the measurement found in the audioxpress review . I was thinking something along the lines of a cauer-elliptic filter with a lower xover point like the ones for the Dayton kits. has anyone already designed a better xover for this kit? for reference I'm using the stock kit
                Last edited by theSven; 01 August 2023, 21:32 Tuesday. Reason: Update htguide url

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15259

                  #9
                  Going with one of Jed's designs is a good idea, as he is geared up with his Clearwave Loudspeaker Design to develop and support client projects.

                  What are your woodworking and assembly skills like? What sort of a challenge do you want? Maybe you'd find something like this interesting...



                  If so, search for Ardent on the forum.

                  Warning: they're a lot of physical work and do require a saw a bit beyond a standard contractors saw (i.e., more cutting depth). Completed and assembled, about 125 lb, 40 liter volume for the woofers.
                  Last edited by theSven; 01 August 2023, 21:30 Tuesday. Reason: Update image location
                  the AudioWorx
                  Natalie P
                  M8ta
                  Modula Neo DCC
                  Modula MT XE
                  Modula Xtreme
                  Isiris
                  Wavecor Ardent

                  SMJ
                  Minerva Monitor
                  Calliope
                  Ardent D

                  In Development...
                  Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                  Obi-Wan
                  Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                  Modula PWB
                  Calliope CC Supreme
                  Natalie P Ultra
                  Natalie P Supreme
                  Janus BP1 Sub


                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • tktran
                    Senior Member
                    • Jan 2005
                    • 658

                    #10
                    IMHO the Thor/Odin is not a reference speaker.

                    I had the Thor (with the premium crossovers) but could never like the way they sounded. After I built Jim Mitchell's crossover and installed it in the Thor cabinet the sound was better, but of course if could not fix what was going on below 100Hz. Which is not very much at all. It measures down to about 60Hz (in-room) and sounds as deep as a good 5" two way standmount speaker. Which is dumbfounding, given that it is a large floorstander with a dual 6.5" woofers.

                    My conclusion is that the Thor's crossover is broken, and the cabinet/bass tuning is misaligned. If I had the energy to rebuild the cabinets I would experiment with around 48L bass reflex, tuned to around 24Hz.

                    Or save yourself the trouble, and buy Jim Salk's HT2-TL. (Thor Done Right)

                    If you really want to stick under 40L, my vote would be the Zaph Revelator Tower.

                    Comment

                    • Bear
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Dec 2008
                      • 1038

                      #11
                      Originally posted by jweb09
                      Jed seems to have some really good design. The one that I was most interested was Duet 10. While Aria sounds really cool too, my wife will not approve open waffle speaker. However Duet 10 was slightly on the larger size. But I guess if one goes with a 10" driver, that is probably the smallest size one is looking at.

                      Any other recommendations?
                      I second Rick's suggestion. Consider whether you want a "full range" speaker or whether you are going to want/need a subwoofer. If the latter, then you may want to go with a slightly smaller cabinet and focus the design on integrating well with a sub of some sort. For me, I am in the process of breaking-in Jed's Minuet5B design (MTM with ScanSpeak 15cm woofers and Air Circ tweeter). Jed is good to work with, especially for first-time builders.

                      Other options to consider run the gamut of price and level of involvement. Figure out not only your dollar budget but also your time budget. Then triple both.

                      Another similar recent thread is here:
                      I've been looking through my options. I'm curious what you guys would would suggest in the the 1-2K per speaker range. I have a pair of nats I enjoy currently. My room isn't that large currently, but I'll be moving the theater to a larger room in the future and I can spend my time working on the new speakers till then. Ideally
                      Last edited by theSven; 01 August 2023, 21:33 Tuesday. Reason: Update htguide url
                      Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                      Comment

                      • jweb09
                        Junior Member
                        • Feb 2010
                        • 12

                        #12
                        John, Ardent premium sounds very interesting. However it seems design instructions are scattered in a long post with 1000+ messages. Is there any one place where the whole design is documented?

                        Comment

                        • jweb09
                          Junior Member
                          • Feb 2010
                          • 12

                          #13
                          Rick and others,

                          This is just for my music and I do not plan ti buy a subwoofer. Size is a restriction as well. That doesn't leave me with very many options, unless some were to bend laws of physics.

                          Comment

                          • Jed
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Apr 2005
                            • 3617

                            #14
                            Originally posted by jweb09
                            Jed seems to have some really good design. The one that I was most interested was Duet 10. While Aria sounds really cool too, my wife will not approve open waffle speaker. However Duet 10 was slightly on the larger size. But I guess if one goes with a 10" driver, that is probably the smallest size one is looking at.

                            Any other recommendations?
                            I have a new smaller version with dual Accuton C95s in TMM format. I haven't put it in the website yet, but it is documented in my forum if you want to take a peak at it. I've been pretty busy with various designs lately, so feel free to shoot me a PM if you want more info. I do feel that Accutons do bass REALLY well.

                            Jed

                            Comment

                            • cjd
                              Ultra Senior Member
                              • Dec 2004
                              • 5568

                              #15
                              Originally posted by jweb09
                              John, Ardent premium sounds very interesting. However it seems design instructions are scattered in a long post with 1000+ messages. Is there any one place where the whole design is documented?
                              I believe he's working on a PDF version...
                              diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                              Comment

                              • numberoneoppa
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2009
                                • 535

                                #16
                                Originally posted by cjd
                                I believe he's working on a PDF version...
                                Slowly, but surely. :3
                                -Josh

                                That feeling when things are finally going right. Yeah, that one.

                                Comment

                                • Hdale85
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Jan 2006
                                  • 16075

                                  #17
                                  Yeah was going to say, Jon finished that design not to long ago and believe he's building a nice PDF guide. You'll be amazed at the instruction booklet when it comes about I'm sure

                                  Can't go wrong with Jed's designs though, I've built 2 of them now and they were both fantastic. But this can be said about most of the designers here.

                                  Comment

                                  • Rick Craig
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Jul 2006
                                    • 391

                                    #18
                                    Originally posted by jweb09
                                    Rick and others,

                                    This is just for my music and I do not plan ti buy a subwoofer. Size is a restriction as well. That doesn't leave me with very many options, unless some were to bend laws of physics.
                                    Is your total cabinet maximum 40L? If so, after bracing and a possible subenclosure for a mid you may be looking at a single 7" or 8" driver. The Dayton RSS210 8" with an Accuton dome mid and RAAL tweeter would be a possibility. I'm working on the same combination now with the Scan-Speak 7" Illuminator (aluminum cone). Feel free to contact me if you're interested in a kit design.

                                    Comment

                                    • Bastek
                                      Member
                                      • Apr 2008
                                      • 41

                                      #19
                                      For a relatively small tower (about 32L) Its hard to top this:

                                      Or for a little larger 44L tower this looks great:

                                      I've built his "super mini" stand mount and it sounds great.

                                      Comment

                                      • synthguy
                                        Member
                                        • Oct 2008
                                        • 34

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by cjd
                                        Basically...

                                        Pick a design. If it meets your size/output requirements, it'll meet your fidelity needs.
                                        Well... while that might work for most people, some of us are after a Holy Grail speaker, something that can compare to a high end Dayton, JM Lab, B&W or Wilson. Something which captures the magical axis of detail, accuracy, soundstaging and musicality. I made the mistake of going to one of our local audiophile shops called Audioport, and listened to one of the best live recordings I've ever come across, UK Live. As the fourth track decayed to silence with the crowd clapping, I was there, above the crowd in the recording station. It was an unfortunate revelation, because I was determined to have that in my music room one day, even though the system I heard it on used $40,000 Wilson speakers.

                                        I did come across a pair of exceptional speakers, some TDL studio monititors, and a pair of AER Pisces bookshelves which are a Chinese knockoff of the B&W 705s, and the similarity is amazing! For the price I paid for them, $330 for the pair, they clobber just about anything under a grand. I'm listening to them right now, playing one of my mood music tracks I write to. They seem to use some HiVi drivers, but I can't be sure. The midwoofer is a gold kevlar cone, much like B&W's. The audio quality is amazing, with great imaging and soundstaging, and a load of detail, though being voiced more for acoustic and classical music, the midrange is a little too prominent for me. And being a budget audiophile design, it can be harsh and fatiguing with rock.

                                        The one thing that bugs me is the ability of all the speakers I've been able to afford, is that they come just a bit short in the ability to retrieve all the detail in my music. I have a torture track I use from a videogame called Panzer Dragoon, an amazing electronic soundtrack of album quality. There is an odd sound the composer uses as a signature of a game melding technology and living things, and this sound has only popped out on a very few speakers.

                                        evilskillit is going to build me a pair of Statement Monitors when I get the cost of a hit n run car wreck dealt with, but I've decided to relegate those to sudio monitor duties. Before the morons in control of our government completely wreck the dollar, I want some truly high end speakers myself, something with a magical, musical, spacious midrange and tweeter combo. If not for the rather narrow music area, I'd have settled on the full Statements. Like jweb, I'm looking for that magic speaker, and I'm determined to have it, whatever it might be.
                                        I'm spoiled, and I intend to stay that way.

                                        Comment

                                        • villastrangiato
                                          Senior Member
                                          • Jan 2010
                                          • 231

                                          #21
                                          Echoing other's on here, I'd definitely stay away from the Thor design - the Offset Transmission Line is not an optimal transmission line loading to begin with despite its popularity with many who claim to be TL "experts". The configuration it uses is fine for minimizing resonances in heating and cooling ducts - not speakers. Moreover, as an offset - it was poorly implemented with two drivers in the same TL cavity - which based on user's experience appears to have caused negative interaction between them.

                                          If you want to get to a "high end place" without being too overwhelmed, I'd look at some of these for inspiration:

                                          Sorry! 404 Page Not Found The page you are looking for might have been removed, had its name changed, or is temporarily unavailable. Please try using...


                                          Also, ThomasW has posted a good deal of information on line source designs using readily available BG Radia ribbon drivers - pay particular attention to his suggestions as to crossing the ribbons to woofer and tweeter drivers - very valuable insights. I'm sure if you elected to head in this design direction, both he and Jon would be very helpful in steering you past any potential pitfalls. Plus, with their help, you'd probably end up with a system that surpasses those you mentioned above in several respects.

                                          Comment

                                          • Bear
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Dec 2008
                                            • 1038

                                            #22
                                            Originally posted by villastrangiato
                                            Also, ThomasW has posted a good deal of information on line source designs using readily available BG Radia ribbon drivers - pay particular attention to his suggestions as to crossing the ribbons to woofer and tweeter drivers - very valuable insights. I'm sure if you elected to head in this design direction, both he and Jon would be very helpful in steering you past any potential pitfalls. Plus, with their help, you'd probably end up with a system that surpasses those you mentioned above in several respects.
                                            While I drool over several of Thomas' projects, "compact" is not usually a word that comes to mind.
                                            Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                            Comment

                                            • cjd
                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                              • Dec 2004
                                              • 5568

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by synthguy
                                              Well... while that might work for most people, some of us are after a Holy Grail speaker, something that can compare to a high end Dayton, JM Lab, B&W or Wilson.
                                              I'll reiterate. Pick a design from here. It will very probably meet these requirements, as long as you don't pick it randomly. Taking this as "oh, I can take this budget design and expect big monster Wilson performance out of it" is beyond what I consider something the OP would do. But take a budget design (~$300 today) and put it up against some nice Paradigm Studio's (~$1200 I think they were) ... the budget design as posted here wins (or, did, when that happened)

                                              The Statements aren't a holy grail speaker for everyone - they definitely deliver an exceptional sound experience, but it's colored a specific way.

                                              The work you find published here is generally very high on the value scale (if not simply high on ANY scale) and can compete exceptionally well with the few commercial systems that build within a fairly neutral range, so it comes down to finding one with the voicing you prefer (some want "BBC dip" and others, like me, find it colors the sound to innacuracy), or some trick to tweak the ear's perception like the Statements, etc. It's still a very personal choice.

                                              C
                                              diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                              Comment

                                              • villastrangiato
                                                Senior Member
                                                • Jan 2010
                                                • 231

                                                #24
                                                Originally posted by Bear
                                                While I drool over several of Thomas' projects, "compact" is not usually a word that comes to mind.
                                                If you click on the NewForm link I posted, it will take you to a page that describes a very modestly sized speaker. While the BG ribbons are tall, they do come in various lengths and their footprint is minuscule.

                                                Comment

                                                • Jim Holtz
                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                  • Mar 2005
                                                  • 3223

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by cjd

                                                  The Statements aren't a holy grail speaker for everyone - they definitely deliver an exceptional sound experience, but it's colored a specific way.

                                                  The work you find published here is generally very high on the value scale (if not simply high on ANY scale) and can compete exceptionally well with the few commercial systems that build within a fairly neutral range, so it comes down to finding one with the voicing you prefer (some want "BBC dip" and others, like me, find it colors the sound to innacuracy), or some trick to tweak the ear's perception like the Statements, etc. It's still a very personal choice.

                                                  C
                                                  Hi Chris,

                                                  I wasn't aware that you'd ever heard any of the Statement series speakers. Whose pair did you listen to?

                                                  Jim

                                                  Comment

                                                  • villastrangiato
                                                    Senior Member
                                                    • Jan 2010
                                                    • 231

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                                                    Hi Chris,

                                                    I wasn't aware that you'd ever heard any of the Statement series speakers. Whose pair did you listen to?

                                                    Jim
                                                    Hey Jim,

                                                    I haven't heard your Statements yet - you could certainly donate a pair to me to rectify that situation. I'd be happy to perform a thorough evaluation and publish my findings here for posterity......So don't donate them just for me....Think of the children!!! You wouldn't want them to miss out on a detailed review of your design, would you? :B

                                                    Comment

                                                    • Jim Holtz
                                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                                      • Mar 2005
                                                      • 3223

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by villastrangiato
                                                      Hey Jim,

                                                      I haven't heard your Statements yet - you could certainly donate a pair to me to rectify that situation. I'd be happy to perform a thorough evaluation and publish my findings here for posterity......So don't donate them just for me....Think of the children!!! You wouldn't want them to miss out on a detailed review of your design, would you? :B
                                                      CJ,

                                                      You're in luck! Curt and I published the Statements designs for anyone to build without charge. I'd call that a "donation". :rofl:

                                                      Jim

                                                      Comment

                                                      • cjd
                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                        • Dec 2004
                                                        • 5568

                                                        #28
                                                        Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                                                        Hi Chris,

                                                        I wasn't aware that you'd ever heard any of the Statement series speakers. Whose pair did you listen to?

                                                        Jim
                                                        I haven't, as I am sure you know. I am basing my statement on the comments made by people that HAVE heard them. I speak of the designs I have heard (and the ones I've designed) in the same way, except that I don't give my own work as much credit, perhaps.

                                                        Once I hear them I'm sure I'll realize they're not exceptional, merely run-of-the-mill. :B
                                                        diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                        Comment

                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                          • 15259

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by cjd
                                                          I believe he's working on a PDF version...

                                                          Not paying enough attention to some of these threads.

                                                          I have a web site in prep for the Ardent, but lately am thinking I'll just do a PDF like I'm preparing for the Modula MT right now (actually just took a break from drawing the final schematic for the Modula MT)

                                                          I'm fine tuning the Ardent crossover levels, expect to have that wrapped up, then will work on a document/PDF for download. That's really easier than posting a huge thread summary or putting up a web site, and it will print easily, too. You know, print, that stuff we used to do on paper? I hear that in spite of all this web stuff you can still buy printers...
                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                          Natalie P
                                                          M8ta
                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                          Isiris
                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                          SMJ
                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                          Calliope
                                                          Ardent D

                                                          In Development...
                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                          Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                          Modula PWB
                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15259

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by jweb09
                                                            John, Ardent premium sounds very interesting. However it seems design instructions are scattered in a long post with 1000+ messages. Is there any one place where the whole design is documented?
                                                            As per my recent post, fine tuning and PDF in process. Gotta pop the new tweeters in, and do final level tweaking and checks with measurement and a variety of program material. BTW, all the detail CAD drawings are in PDF already. That's how I built them- kind of hard to refer to a computer screen in the workshop! Probably will just setup a big zip file for folks to download.
                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                            Natalie P
                                                            M8ta
                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                            Isiris
                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                            SMJ
                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                            Calliope
                                                            Ardent D

                                                            In Development...
                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                            Obi-Wan
                                                            Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                            Modula PWB
                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • CraigJ
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Feb 2006
                                                              • 518

                                                              #31
                                                              Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                              I hear that in spite of all this web stuff you can still buy printers...
                                                              Aren't you the guy that purchased an extra wide printer in order to print "life sized" drawings? Hope you feel better this weekend, enjoy your four days, and relax and take time to watch some of the Olympics.

                                                              Oh, and is ET secretly working on a Raal Omni design?

                                                              Craig

                                                              p.s. and whatever you do, no, I repeat, no heavy lifting, only heavy listening.

                                                              Comment

                                                              • JonMarsh
                                                                Mad Max Moderator
                                                                • Aug 2000
                                                                • 15259

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by CraigJ

                                                                p.s. and whatever you do, no, I repeat, no heavy lifting, only heavy listening.
                                                                Heavy listening? Is there something wrong with the earth's gravitational field this weekend?

                                                                Rumor and scuttle butt at the local cantina where all the droids and off duty troopers hang out is that the Chancellor sent ET to the wood shed with instructions to bring back a Nascent design with a waveguide, and BEFORE any foray's into further stealing technology from Eastern Europe (however, the last one was so successful that the Chancellor did give ET a new planer, a gift card for LBL at Rockler's and some exotic recordings as a reward, to add to his library).

                                                                Only problem for ET is that I've got the time in the workshop booked all weekend, virus or no virus, so it will be Modula Madness on Fast Eddie's DIY Speaker Lot next month! :B

                                                                Or, to quote/paraphrase that famous thespian,

                                                                "Don't try to sell bamboo here, we're all stocked up!!" :rofl:

                                                                Have a good weekend, too, Craig!
                                                                the AudioWorx
                                                                Natalie P
                                                                M8ta
                                                                Modula Neo DCC
                                                                Modula MT XE
                                                                Modula Xtreme
                                                                Isiris
                                                                Wavecor Ardent

                                                                SMJ
                                                                Minerva Monitor
                                                                Calliope
                                                                Ardent D

                                                                In Development...
                                                                Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                Obi-Wan
                                                                Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                Modula PWB
                                                                Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                Natalie P Ultra
                                                                Natalie P Supreme
                                                                Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                Comment

                                                                • CraigJ
                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                  • Feb 2006
                                                                  • 518

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Nothing wrong with the Earth's gravitational field this weekend, that I know of. Just thinking about discectomies and M8tas, and hasn't it been seven years to the week since your surgery? Don't want you catching up to my wife.

                                                                  Glad to hear that the Chancellor gave ET a new toy. Wonder how the planer works with aluminum cylinders.

                                                                  Click image for larger version

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                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • Paul K.
                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                    • Jul 2008
                                                                    • 180

                                                                    #34
                                                                    A little clarification (or simply an alternate opinion)...

                                                                    There is nothing inherently wrong with either an Offset TL or in having two woofers share an Offset TL. When properly designed and implemented, the offset driver location does very well in suppressing unwanted ripples in the response, and both woofers will work just fine, thank you, not sufferring in the least from negative interaction. I've never heard a Thor and, therefore, cannot offer an opinion on its sound, but I do recognize some "compromises" were made in its design. Oh, I don't claim to be a TL "expert", but I do okay.
                                                                    Paul

                                                                    [QUOTE=villastrangiato]Echoing other's on here, I'd definitely stay away from the Thor design - the Offset Transmission Line is not an optimal transmission line loading to begin with despite its popularity with many who claim to be TL "experts". The configuration it uses is fine for minimizing resonances in heating and cooling ducts - not speakers. Moreover, as an offset - it was poorly implemented with two drivers in the same TL cavity - which based on user's experience appears to have caused negative interaction between them.

                                                                    Comment

                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                      • 15259

                                                                      #35
                                                                      Originally posted by CraigJ
                                                                      Nothing wrong with the Earth's gravitational field this weekend, that I know of. Just thinking about discectomies and M8tas, and hasn't it been seven years to the week since your surgery? Don't want you catching up to my wife.

                                                                      Glad to hear that the Chancellor gave ET a new toy. Wonder how the planer works with aluminum cylinders.

                                                                      Click image for larger version  Name:	raal1-thumb-530x398-25253.webp Views:	0 Size:	15.0 KB ID:	946664
                                                                      ā€‹

                                                                      Not real well with the aluminum, though we got him a new aluminum cutting carbide blade and lubricating wax tube, too. It's more for shaping hardwood and shimming the pieces in the front panel build up for some of these new projects. Other rumors point to the Chancellor putting ET on his favorite and long delayed "Death Star Dipole", something about a concentration of neodymium magnets so dense that it's just this side of pure neutronium. And I've heard there's lot of tropical hardwoods waiting to be planed, you know, the kind that make carbonite look like breakfast food because the dust is so toxic in comparison.

                                                                      Well, I guess that's an anniversary I should celebrate, as I've been doing more heavy lifting and other activities without repercussions the last year and a half than I could get away with since the year 2000! The exercise bike and some other physical stuff has certainly helped. Yes, APEC conference is coming up again shortly, and this time I wont be flying out a few days after back surgery!

                                                                      What's kind of weird about that time years ago, (shows what a stubborn cuss I can be) was that by May I'd bought a new table saw and was building the M8ta's. There's an artist friend of mine up in the NE that says I have "fire in my belly", I thought she just meant indigestion when I eat too much pizza...

                                                                      So, hey, I'm working on improving things... the Ardents are physically smaller than the M8ta, though they actually seem to, ahem, weigh more. Fortunately I don't. :W

                                                                      So I will endeavor not to catch up to your wife- actually I'm pretty dang happy how those things have been going, as ThomasW is in a world of hurt these days with those problems.

                                                                      Again, have a good weekend- finished the Modula MT schematic, gotta get back to the Ardent.
                                                                      Last edited by theSven; 01 August 2023, 21:32 Tuesday. Reason: Update quote
                                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                                      Natalie P
                                                                      M8ta
                                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                                      Isiris
                                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                                      SMJ
                                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                                      Calliope
                                                                      Ardent D

                                                                      In Development...
                                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                                      Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                      Modula PWB
                                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • ---k---
                                                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                                                        • Nov 2005
                                                                        • 5202

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by CraigJ
                                                                        Nothing wrong with the Earth's gravitational field this weekend, that I know of.
                                                                        I think that statement may be premature. We did have an Earthquake here in northern Illinois this week.
                                                                        - Ryan

                                                                        CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                                                                        CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                                                                        CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • villastrangiato
                                                                          Senior Member
                                                                          • Jan 2010
                                                                          • 231

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by Paul K.
                                                                          There is nothing inherently wrong with either an Offset TL or in having two woofers share an Offset TL. When properly designed and implemented, the offset driver location does very well in suppressing unwanted ripples in the response, and both woofers will work just fine, thank you, not sufferring in the least from negative interaction. I've never heard a Thor and, therefore, cannot offer an opinion on its sound, but I do recognize some "compromises" were made in its design. Oh, I don't claim to be a TL "expert", but I do okay
                                                                          Paul
                                                                          You're misquoting me. I said the Offset TL is not optimal. If you have sufficient experience with TL's, you'd know that the ripples at the port exit of a properly executed standard design are no greater in magnitude than the ripples that typcially exist in any woofer's response plot - regardless of the loading. Look at Augspurger's papers again where the responses of all TL types are compared - you will see a significant reduction in low bass output with the Offset design. While the ripple reduction at the output is noticeable in a TL that has no damping, when standard damping methods are employed, there is no real difference between Offset and Standard Taper with respect to ripple at the output. There is a noticeable difference in low bass output however - which has been documented time and again in measurements. For this reason, Offset TLs are not optimal.

                                                                          Additionally, placing two identical woofers 1/20th the pipe frequency wavelength away from each other at the beginning of an offset TL will most definitely result in undesireable loading of the drivers - particularly the driver closer to the closed end of an offset line. This is so fundamentally obvious, it barely merits mentioning.

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • ThomasW
                                                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                                            • 10934

                                                                            #38
                                                                            This is a DIY forum for people building loudspeakers, not the loudspeaker design theory debate club.

                                                                            The next pissing contest that develops will result in permanent bans.

                                                                            IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                                                            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • villastrangiato
                                                                              Senior Member
                                                                              • Jan 2010
                                                                              • 231

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Originally posted by ThomasW
                                                                              This is a DIY forum for people building loudspeakers, not the loudspeaker design theory debate club.

                                                                              The next pissing contest that develops will result in permanent bans.

                                                                              Yup. Too much yapping and squabbling about design - not enough building and pictures.

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • jweb09
                                                                                Junior Member
                                                                                • Feb 2010
                                                                                • 12

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Jed, will drop you a PM regarding speakers with pair of accutons

                                                                                Rick, do you have any more info on 3 way speaker you were referring to (Scanspeak 7", accuton mid and RAAL tweeter). I couldnt find this design on your website

                                                                                I know size of the driver is a wrong way to look at the driver but I wonder what kind of difference there might be between 7" vs 8" bass-mid driver. Is there any great 8" driver that only needs 35 - 40 liters of volume

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • Paul K.
                                                                                  Senior Member
                                                                                  • Jul 2008
                                                                                  • 180

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  While I still disagree with you on all counts and I respect your right to disagree with me, I don't particularly want to be banned, and the best thing I can do is to display my next project here when it's finished (less yapping and more building discussions); it is a 3-way using a tapered TL for the woofer with the woofer's location offset at ~20% from the closed end. I'll let you and everyone else that's interested see the results and form opinions. I do intend to go take a look again at Augspurger's documentation to refresh my memory.
                                                                                  Paul

                                                                                  Originally posted by villastrangiato
                                                                                  You're misquoting me. I said the Offset TL is not optimal. If you have sufficient experience with TL's, you'd know that the ripples at the port exit of a properly executed standard design are no greater in magnitude than the ripples that typcially exist in any woofer's response plot - regardless of the loading. Look at Augspurger's papers again where the responses of all TL types are compared - you will see a significant reduction in low bass output with the Offset design. While the ripple reduction at the output is noticeable in a TL that has no damping, when standard damping methods are employed, there is no real difference between Offset and Standard Taper with respect to ripple at the output. There is a noticeable difference in low bass output however - which has been documented time and again in measurements. For this reason, Offset TLs are not optimal.

                                                                                  Additionally, placing two identical woofers 1/20th the pipe frequency wavelength away from each other at the beginning of an offset TL will most definitely result in undesireable loading of the drivers - particularly the driver closer to the closed end of an offset line. This is so fundamentally obvious, it barely merits mentioning.

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • Rick Craig
                                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                                    • Jul 2006
                                                                                    • 391

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by jweb09
                                                                                    Jed, will drop you a PM regarding speakers with pair of accutons

                                                                                    Rick, do you have any more info on 3 way speaker you were referring to (Scanspeak 7", accuton mid and RAAL tweeter). I couldnt find this design on your website

                                                                                    I know size of the driver is a wrong way to look at the driver but I wonder what kind of difference there might be between 7" vs 8" bass-mid driver. Is there any great 8" driver that only needs 35 - 40 liters of volume
                                                                                    I'm working on it right now. I've built a very similar design using the Accuton 7" and this will be even better. Most 7" woofers are going to be in the 20L range. This would allow you to do a MTM or MMT but given your budget I would go with a 3-way. The Scan-Speak 22W8857 is my favorite 8" woofer and would work well in the volume you need.

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • synthguy
                                                                                      Member
                                                                                      • Oct 2008
                                                                                      • 34

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Originally posted by cjd
                                                                                      I'll reiterate. Pick a design from here. It will very probably meet these requirements, as long as you don't pick it randomly. Taking this as "oh, I can take this budget design and expect big monster Wilson performance out of it" is beyond what I consider something the OP would do. But take a budget design (~$300 today) and put it up against some nice Paradigm Studio's (~$1200 I think they were) ... the budget design as posted here wins (or, did, when that happened)

                                                                                      The Statements aren't a holy grail speaker for everyone - they definitely deliver an exceptional sound experience, but it's colored a specific way.

                                                                                      The work you find published here is generally very high on the value scale (if not simply high on ANY scale) and can compete exceptionally well with the few commercial systems that build within a fairly neutral range, so it comes down to finding one with the voicing you prefer (some want "BBC dip" and others, like me, find it colors the sound to innacuracy), or some trick to tweak the ear's perception like the Statements, etc. It's still a very personal choice.

                                                                                      C
                                                                                      I don't disagree with you, save on one small aspect. I do know that many of you could be making money designing speakers for The Big Guys, and most of the designs here could easily replace just about everything in a store, even in a boutique audiophile shop. Some like Mr Zaph are already on a payroll of some kind.

                                                                                      I have no doubt that half or most of the designs here sound very good to fantastic, but I'm not just after a certain frequency response. I want a speaker that's like a high definition TV. I want to "see" the music, where the players are, how the drums are arranged, where the Leslie cabinet is. How big the space is they recorded it at, or how big the studio is trying to make it with digital effects. This kind of imaging is dependent on not just good drivers but exceptional high end drivers. And I would argue, high quality components in the crossover.

                                                                                      The reason that there are hundreds of designs kicking around in this place, each with their adherents, is because they're like musical instruments. Each design does something cool to make the speaker desirable, even if it's costing very little to make. But the better designs with the more costly drivers do something to push the envelope even further towards something tantalizing and breathtaking. If $40 tweets and mids did it all, why bother with the Fountek ribbons, Accutons, Revelators or Milleniums? There would be no reason to ever build the Statements or the Zaph Revelators, and Jed would be laughed off the board. Just build the Microbes or Waveguides (without the waveguides) and call it good. Of course, they don't.

                                                                                      I have a feeling you're agreeing with me, but it's not a simple matter of getting the specs for one of your Khanspires, which do interest me. But I really want something a bit more stratospheric and Wilsonesque, if you will, and I know that if you put something on the level of Zaph's 3.5 tower next to the ZRTs, the Ardents or Jed's Duet 10s, something will get shown up in Zaph's otherwise great design.

                                                                                      Yeah, I have chronic audiophilia, and I live by my sig, but it never killed anyone to my knowledge. :W
                                                                                      I'm spoiled, and I intend to stay that way.

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • Paul K.
                                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                                        • Jul 2008
                                                                                        • 180

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        So as not to cause any problems on this forum or risk getting banned, I've sent you a private email with further discussion on these two design issues. I do hope you will read it with an open mind.
                                                                                        Paul

                                                                                        Originally posted by villastrangiato
                                                                                        You're misquoting me. I said the Offset TL is not optimal. If you have sufficient experience with TL's, you'd know that the ripples at the port exit of a properly executed standard design are no greater in magnitude than the ripples that typcially exist in any woofer's response plot - regardless of the loading. Look at Augspurger's papers again where the responses of all TL types are compared - you will see a significant reduction in low bass output with the Offset design. While the ripple reduction at the output is noticeable in a TL that has no damping, when standard damping methods are employed, there is no real difference between Offset and Standard Taper with respect to ripple at the output. There is a noticeable difference in low bass output however - which has been documented time and again in measurements. For this reason, Offset TLs are not optimal.

                                                                                        Additionally, placing two identical woofers 1/20th the pipe frequency wavelength away from each other at the beginning of an offset TL will most definitely result in undesireable loading of the drivers - particularly the driver closer to the closed end of an offset line. This is so fundamentally obvious, it barely merits mentioning.

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • JonMarsh
                                                                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                                                                          • Aug 2000
                                                                                          • 15259

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by synthguy

                                                                                          I have no doubt that half or most of the designs here sound very good to fantastic, but I'm not just after a certain frequency response. I want a speaker that's like a high definition TV. I want to "see" the music, where the players are, how the drums are arranged, where the Leslie cabinet is. How big the space is they recorded it at, or how big the studio is trying to make it with digital effects. This kind of imaging is dependent on not just good drivers but exceptional high end drivers. And I would argue, high quality components in the crossover.


                                                                                          Yeah, I have chronic audiophilia, and I live by my sig, but it never killed anyone to my knowledge. :W

                                                                                          This better defines your goals. I understand them and am quite familiar with them... however, speakers of any kind alone won't get you there.

                                                                                          Source equipment is critical, as well as pretty much everything else in the chain. You can get closer with the right source equipment and a basically accurate low distortion set of speakers like the Neo D CC than you can building the top DIY design on this or any other site I know of (Troel's and Tony Gee's included) and driving them with the typical midrange equipment that DIY guys are fond of for the value proposition, much less with HT gear.

                                                                                          That undoubtedly sounds haughty and arrogant on my part, but I've sufficiently demonstrated that in person for some of the other members, who hearing the Neo D CC's at ThomasW's last October, thought they have been extensively updated and redesigned. Not the case- the speakers were not changed at all, just ThomasW's system.

                                                                                          So, as part of this discussion, it may be helpful to discuss what you use for source and your complete system chain at present, and what updates you're considering, as well as your budget.

                                                                                          New speakers alone are not likely to do it. There is alway valid discussion regarding what source gear YOU prefer and why, and how you like to flesh out the discussion with your experience, preferences, and current working setup.

                                                                                          I get dirty looks and dirtier comments when I mention that speakers that cost under 1K a pair to build can easily reveal important differences in balance and neutrality between a $1500 set of speaker cables and a $2700 set from the same company, and clearly benefit from the more expensive ones. Most DIY sites and the majority of constructors deride that there is any difference in the sound of film capacitors, but in the real world, in a good system, that is just not the case. Clarity's cooperative work with sponsoring independent research at a UK university and the product development resulting from that is an example of well documented support to the contention that capacitor materials and construction matter a lot.

                                                                                          One of the "benefits" of an all active design like the Orion is the lack of passive crossover components in the signal path. OTOH, it has a bazillion op amps in the crossover, which doesn't thrill me particularly, but SL understands crossover topologies and filter design and at least has them arranged correctly, unlike most commercial products I've come across.

                                                                                          As DIY constructors go, Tony Gee "gets" the whole passive component quality issue. I guess that's why he's pretty big on Duelund caps these days- can't blame him, but again, balancing cost/performance is an issue at any price point.

                                                                                          Even my own daughter wonders why the speakers she has sound so so much better at my house than at hers- she asks what makes the difference- of course, my response is "everything".

                                                                                          Probably my recommendation to you would be to listen to a number of commercial true high end SYSTEMs, not just speakers, and narrow in on what you think you're looking for in reproduction. In that process you'll figure out what you need to have in source and system components as well as what's possible with speakers at various price points.

                                                                                          You'll get what you're describing in source component sound for less money with vinyl than with digital- the cheapest DAC I've found that images well is the Berkely Alpha DAC- (which I own now), and the only digital rivals I found delivering similar, but in some cases inferior sonics, were all over $10K.

                                                                                          There are a lot of options in good vinyl reproduction under $5K.

                                                                                          Keep in mind you have to have a source transport or computer server to use with the Berkeley or any other DAC, and I also use an Antelope DA reclocker with it as an SPIDF and AES/EBU buffer. It sounds better that way, in a rather obvious manner, in that you can get results with a good $600 transport that otherwise you may only equal with a $5000 transport, and since I only paid $1100 for it, that is good value for less than the price of a good set of cables.

                                                                                          With regards to speaker cables, for what you're looking for in reproduction, the baseline would be Cardas Golden Reference, IMO, though if you can pony up the money, Cardas Clear is what I prefer; or demo some Nordost if you've won the lottery. I like Cardas because George is a real engineer, and puts real specs behind his cables. How many manufactuers will even spec the loop back inductance per foot of their cable? (o.o176 uH for Cardas Clear, 0.03 uH/ft for Golden Reference). Now, I doubt that the reason his top cables sound the way they do is just because of the geometry and low inductance, but being an engineer, maybe I just feel comfortable knowing what he's accomplished. Of course, you don't listen to the specs, you listen to the system and the cable.

                                                                                          I see many, many pronouncements on DIY sites that cables don't really matter beyond a certain basic minimum (AWG 12 zip cord?), caps don't matter beyond mylar film construction, solid state amps of a given output impedance sound pretty much alike, and all DACs measure better than speakers so their sound is besides the point and not a limitation for the system. Life would be very much simpler if all of that was true... and a $5K system could rival the $180K one that the Avalon Isis were demo'd with at RMAF back in 2006.

                                                                                          For anyone who has made those comparisons in person between the "practical" stuff and the "good" stuff, and found those judgements of equivalence for you to be true, well, congratulations- you've just saved yourself a big pile of money. Keep it for your next house or your retirement.

                                                                                          If you haven't made those comparisons personally, then making judgements and declarations in abstentia based on supposition might be unwarranted.

                                                                                          Me, I've only just in the last year gotten digital that rivals what I had in vinyl in the late 70's. And while I'm more pleased with my system than ever before, and done everything possible to limit my expenditures, I don't find any of the above to be true, having made my own comparisons and evaluations the hard way- piece by piece, one step at a time, over many years.

                                                                                          The same way you'll need to do them.
                                                                                          the AudioWorx
                                                                                          Natalie P
                                                                                          M8ta
                                                                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                                                                          Modula MT XE
                                                                                          Modula Xtreme
                                                                                          Isiris
                                                                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                                                                          SMJ
                                                                                          Minerva Monitor
                                                                                          Calliope
                                                                                          Ardent D

                                                                                          In Development...
                                                                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                                          Obi-Wan
                                                                                          Saint-Saƫns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                                          Modula PWB
                                                                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                                                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                                                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                                          Comment

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