Building the NeoDCC as floorstanders

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  • kravi4ka
    Member
    • Feb 2006
    • 90

    #46
    Doug:
    It's funny you mention the cymbals, that is where I found the only thing that I would like to work on with the NeoDcc... In my case it sounds like I have made a wiring mistake and something is out of phase in a certain region that affects exactly cymbals and triangles - you can hear them but the decay is missing... :roll: Fantastic transparency everywhere else and it really makes me wonder why you and me have similar feelings about cymbals and Jon (the actual designer of the NeoDcc and Modula MT which have no such problem at all) is not detecting any problem with it, is this just capacitor/wriring choice?

    Unfortunately I don't have any measuring equipment and I know how easy one can make mistakes trying to fine tune the speaker to his taste, playing with resistor values gave similar results to yours - brightness with no meaningful improvement in the required area.

    I will admit a strange thing though, taking the risk you might accuse me of snake oil consumer, hoping this might give some food for thought. A friend of mine that is a follower of Bill Ying's theory that using "tuning cables" can make any speaker sound good (I have no idea what his actual theory is or where to read more) came to my house and after listening for a while asked me to give him some 48 cm of copper wire and he twisted it around the far end of each speaker cable, each turn approximately 1 cm from the other and all of a sudden the cymbals you were hoping for were there... 8O :roll: Now that was a surprise as I was expecting this to affect other areas but there was no side effect to this, at least for the hour I listened to it. I do not recommend that stuff to anyone, I do not plan to use it or even think about it as that is is unacceptable for me but I would like to suggest that this relatively microscopic inductor value allowed for improvement in the area of interest and I am still trying to find a way to explain it... Please keep me posted on your progress, will be much appreciated. I do feel that this is my last pair of speakers and I am really hoping to find a way to make it perfect.
    Thanks again!

    Comment

    • ---k---
      Ultra Senior Member
      • Nov 2005
      • 5202

      #47
      I think it would go the other direction, and make the cymbals more dead, but I have noticed that neither one of you are using felt around the tweeter like Jon does. It seems illogical, but it is a difference you might want to explore. Felt is relatively cheap.

      Also, I find it very odd that you say, "you can hear them but the decay is missing". Some times, decay is distortion that we're used to. Maybe try it with some of the albums that Jon mentions in his Ardent thread around page 19, 20. Maybe it is your music selection (or Jon's)???
      - Ryan

      CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
      CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
      CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

      Comment

      • kravi4ka
        Member
        • Feb 2006
        • 90

        #48
        Hm, it is really challenging to explain what is going on, sure it sounds weird and that is why I posted it,especially the stuff with wires around the speaker cable, I do know how inductors affect the output of a driver. I will of course try the felt, thanks for reminding me about that.
        Talking about the decay here is what I am worried about - I have had many speakers and I still have some at home, I have listened extensively to others and I have brought some home recently, including Jamo Concert 9, Modula MT, most of the Hivi line of speakers and some Dynaudios ( first thing every speakerbuilder is to compare the new contender to the old dogs ) , they are supposed to be kind of accurate and there is a difference on the way they sound but the decay is there repeatably and through my NeoD it sounds as if the triangle is struck but then touched by hand.And Yes, I have tried several amplifiers and cables too, even replaced the caps on the tweeter - different flavor, still something left to be desired... Music has been almost everything that you can think of style wise.
        On some disks there are sounds that are heard through the music and I am missing them here,occasional bells for example, I was hoping that raising the level of the tweeter would solve that but Jon was right, the posted final version is much more coherent and natural sounding. It is really frustrating - these are the most organically sounding speakers I have ever heard, very involving and transparent and I just need some time to troubleshoot a little more, I promised Jon to post what I am doing and I am just looking for some advice,believe me, I feel weird too, especially after the trick with the tuning cables...

        Comment

        • kravi4ka
          Member
          • Feb 2006
          • 90

          #49
          Felt is first thing when I come back from work tomorrow, sure makes a lot of sense... I remember someone posting a graph with some felt/no felt measurements, may be that is the key?

          Comment

          • Doug Fraser
            Member
            • Apr 2004
            • 62

            #50
            kravi4ka

            I found that the first filter (1.5 dB gain, 6 dB per octave @ 3169 Hz) really provides the majority of the improvement for me. I am not sure I will keep the second filter. My next round of experimentation is to play with the amount of gain. 1.5 dB doesn't sound like allot to me but it sure makes a difference.

            From Jon's graphs the mid driver (RS52) still contributes a fair amount at 3kHz so just increasing the tweeter level may not be enough. The 5Khz filter by itself did not make the necessary improvements for me.

            I have a Master's in Electrical Engineering and have a very difficult time with non traditional methods to improve the sound. Please understand I am not trying to pick a fight - it is just not for me. However, having said that, I asked my wife to listen to sound with and without the filters in. She said she could not hear the difference whereas it was as clear as night and day to me - go figure. Am I hearing things that are not there?

            I am going to move the speakers into the bedroom. I will be changing the set up so I can dial in EQ filters from the listening position. I have found it is really difficult to make changes than then run back into the room (to the listening position) to evaluate their effect. The other issue that I am wrestling with is that my 1991 vintage B&W 802's sound considerable brighter than the NeoD CC. I have listed to them for almost 20 years now. Perhaps my brain is has been trained to hear exaggerated highs as being normal. After spending some time with the NeoD's, the B&W's however now sound like they have allot of distortion and ragged while the NeoD's sound very clean and smooth.

            I am very interested in your progress - even the non traditional approaches.

            Please do post what effect the felt has - I flush mounted the tweeters hoping not to have to use felt. The WAF factor would most likely not allow this.

            I'll let you know how I make out continuing with the equalized approach. At this point I feel I am close to what at least I want to hear.

            Regards,
            Doug

            Comment

            • kravi4ka
              Member
              • Feb 2006
              • 90

              #51
              Haven't had the time to try the felt but I am listening to these speakers playing Peter Gabriel's "Don't give up" and I must say that this is the best speaker I have heard playing Tony Levin, not to mention Peter himself (my wife came from the other room to say that this is the best speakers we have had, she LIKES them!!!) Could not resist the temptation to post this, I still need some more output from the tweeter but this is intoxicating enough to make me forget about everything and just enjoy.

              Hopefully I will try the mod tomorrow and will report back but I am also seeing another big difference from Jon's pair - our boxes are much bigger and tuning is different.I don't think this is the problem but this speaker is very sensitive to everything...

              Comment

              • kravi4ka
                Member
                • Feb 2006
                • 90

                #52
                You guys are probably wondering why I haven't posted anything about my "problems" with the NeoDcc for some time and the reason is that I am enjoying them so much that I am not that motivated to do anything... Yes I still do miss some things in the top end but man, does that midrange make life wonderful! I am listening to the new Merillion album at the moment and I feel I am in love again, maaaaagical...
                I am tempted about the SS tweeter replacement because everything else sounds so right, so lifelike that I am truly amazed at what a speaker can do. I am an ENT resident and I have spent quite some time reading theories about hearing and brain participation in the process, I am conducting hearing tests everyday and I must say that I have never had a speaker that sounds so right to me, Jon with Duelund's help is playing right there at the braincore, I can't imagine what the SDX-2 sounds like but the weird thing is that I am not even tempted to try it, something that is almost inevitable with every new project that he posts.
                Now if I could only get that last sparkle from the current configuration... I am very angry that I cannot measure what is going on with the FR, I have a disk with all frequencies from 20Hz to 20 kHz and when I am listening to the signal I feel that the midrange is a little too prominent compared to the bass and the tweeter (I have checked my hearing and it is OK) but that is very subjective, I am planning to get them measured I just need to find the equipment.
                I am wondering what happened with Doug Fraser's experiments, I was getting the impression he had the same feelings about the top end.

                Now I am listening to a song with a beautiful triangle and it sounds great while the cymbals on the back are very very far behind everything that is happening in the music, I can hear them but they are faint :roll: I am really getting crazy...

                P.S. I forgot to mention that I tried the felt on the front - well it does not bring the top level up but I got a very nice smooth feeling about the midrange, it got off a smidgen of glare that was not evident in the first place.

                Comment

                • JonMarsh
                  Mad Max Moderator
                  • Aug 2000
                  • 15261

                  #53
                  More silly comments and thoughts from the other doc E

                  Originally posted by kravi4ka

                  Now I am listening to a song with a beautiful triangle and it sounds great while the cymbals on the back are very very far behind everything that is happening in the music, I can hear them but they are faint :roll: I am really getting crazy...

                  P.S. I forgot to mention that I tried the felt on the front - well it does not bring the top level up but I got a very nice smooth feeling about the midrange, it got off a smidgen of glare that was not evident in the first place.
                  Sometimes, that's how it's mixed and how it should sound!

                  Not to discourage you from experimentation or getting measurement equipment-

                  But to remind you...

                  THIS is actual measured data on axis of the finished system at ThomasW's in October 2007....




                  THIS is an LspCAD simulation from individually measured driver data, not necessarily measured at the same time:



                  Just swapping between Cardas Golden Presence and Golden Reference speaker cables can give a marked difference in the presentation of the presence region and top end- the former emphasizes it, the latter is more neutral, IMO, though the loop back inductance is nearly identical, around 0.03 uH/ft (FAR lower than most speaker cable constructions; only beaten by Cardas Clear, that I know of). However, in my home, in my system, the Golden presence emphasize the upper presence range and top end too much for the NeoD's, though I have other speakers it's a better match for, perhaps ones that don't have the same power response in the top end.

                  Last, the only achilles heel of the D26NC55 is the off axis performance, which is more like a hard dome than a soft dome, and drops off above 10 kHz. The proposed SS D2004/6020-00 with a 3/4" dome remedies that, having very good performance to 20 kHz at 30 degrees off axis.

                  More last, the HF presentation of different amplifiers, DAC's, preamps, etc, all falls into this- I was in the Salk Audio room at RMAF, listening to the MTM tower (don't remember the model number), which is supposed to be quite flat from 80 Hz to 20 kHz, and with the associated gear, including Van Altine's new tube power amp, the top end seemed quite muted to me and my partner's in crime visiting the suite. Was it the speakers? A setup error? Or the nature of the rest of the system? Not something I can answer without more investigation.

                  Absolutely very, very last, the different in transient focus and extension at the frequency extremes can make the Alpha DAC simultaneously give a more full bodied harmonically rich midrange AND considerable more focus and resolution to cymbals and transient attacks, WITHOUT putting an unnatural etch or edge in place. Should we use speakers to try to make that sound, as using additional sharpening in photographic software, or should we fix the issue at the source (better lens on the camera!).

                  I think it will greatly help when you can afford to have some measurement capability- I use both, but some of my most used recordings for checking balance and performance are one's I'm literally familiar with for 30+ years, on a lot of different systems, including Stax headphones.
                  Last edited by theSven; 24 July 2023, 15:21 Monday. Reason: Update image location
                  the AudioWorx
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                  Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                  Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                  Comment

                  • kravi4ka
                    Member
                    • Feb 2006
                    • 90

                    #54
                    Thanks Jon,
                    I am truly hoping to get them to a friend that has the appropriate room and a CLIO system, I am not touching anything till then, enough playing with resistors and tweeter level. Your choice of resistors was the most pleasant thought, you've got it spot on.
                    I must admit that I was amazed on how sensitive or should I say how transparent are these speakers - I can easily hear difference between cables (and amplifiers), I will scandalize the forum again saying my wife heard the difference too while she was reading a book, she just said "the previous was better", not knowing what I changed!
                    If there is time to play with the SS I will seriously consider it, do you think you can try flush mount arrangement of all drivers?

                    Again ;x( ;x( ;x(

                    Comment

                    • JonMarsh
                      Mad Max Moderator
                      • Aug 2000
                      • 15261

                      #55
                      Originally posted by kravi4ka
                      If there is time to play with the SS I will seriously consider it, do you think you can try flush mount arrangement of all drivers?

                      Again ;x( ;x( ;x(
                      The SS would be OK to flush mount, but the way I did the felt on the baffle, it's no point to go to the extra work, I think. "Dealer's choice" is probably the operative word!
                      the AudioWorx
                      Natalie P
                      M8ta
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                      In Development...
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                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                      Comment

                      • kravi4ka
                        Member
                        • Feb 2006
                        • 90

                        #56
                        I am planning to rebuild the whole boxes so that would not be a problem, I was more worried about matching the acoustic centers.

                        Comment

                        • JonMarsh
                          Mad Max Moderator
                          • Aug 2000
                          • 15261

                          #57
                          Well, though the difference would be small, I'll have a look at that and see which makes the best match. The D26 has enough recess that I think the current mounting makes the most sense.
                          the AudioWorx
                          Natalie P
                          M8ta
                          Modula Neo DCC
                          Modula MT XE
                          Modula Xtreme
                          Isiris
                          Wavecor Ardent

                          SMJ
                          Minerva Monitor
                          Calliope
                          Ardent D

                          In Development...
                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
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                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                          Comment

                          • kravi4ka
                            Member
                            • Feb 2006
                            • 90

                            #58
                            I was wondering, if I decide to rebuild the cabinets and use the translam method, what is the width that should be regarded as baffle width - the front of the box as usual or the widest part of the speaker between the two sides - somewhere in the middle of the depth for example?

                            Comment

                            • Hdale85
                              Moderator Emeritus
                              • Jan 2006
                              • 16075

                              #59
                              Front of the box.

                              Comment

                              • kravi4ka
                                Member
                                • Feb 2006
                                • 90

                                #60
                                Thanks!

                                Comment

                                • JonW
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Jan 2006
                                  • 1582

                                  #61
                                  Jon,

                                  I doubt it helps your tweeter thoughts but I'll mention it just in case...

                                  I've got a project that is currently in progress in which I am using the long chamber version of that SS tweeter:
                                  Free support for loudspeaker projects, sourcing OEM speaker building supplies, and passive crossover design. We sell raw speaker drivers (tweeters, woofers, subwoofer, midrange drivers, full range drivers), speaker kits, amplifiers, capacitors, resistors, and inductors.


                                  I'm pairing it up with a Seas W16 in a very small 2 way design. I have not had a chance to start a detailed build thread but some details are here:
                                  For my next project I’m thinking about making some rather small speakers for use in an office-based system. Maximum size on the order of ~6.5” wide x 10” tall x 8” deep. And try to make as high end of a design as possible with low distortion and such. Given that the listener will be closer to the speakers than is typical, there


                                  The cabinets are built, veneered, and finished. I can let you know how the tweeter sounds after I take some measurements and start voicing the crossover.

                                  Click image for larger version

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                                  Last edited by theSven; 24 July 2023, 15:22 Monday. Reason: Update image location and htguide url

                                  Comment

                                  • kravi4ka
                                    Member
                                    • Feb 2006
                                    • 90

                                    #62
                                    Hi JonW,

                                    Thanks for that post, I am definitely interested in the SS tweeter and your projects look wonderful. Please keep us posted.

                                    I am feeling very guilty for torturing Jon with my "problems" with the tweeter, to be honest I am pretty sure there is something that I have either overlooked or changed because I made several crude experiments to make sure the cables and tweeters are OK, the only two things I haven't changed are the caps on the tweeter and I haven't done any measurements, I simply do not have the time... ops:

                                    Jon has been very patient with me and he did stress several times the importance of cap and cable choice but I must say again that I am relatively experienced and there is certainly something weird going on. To give you the perspective here is what I did yesterday- I brought home a pair of Modula MTs and used the same amp, speaker cables and source and compared them with the NeoDcc and the latter is clearly better in every respect - much more transparent, much more detailed, much more balanced, much better soundstage, everything is clearly in a different class but there are some things in the high frequencies that simply missing or are very difficult to hear on the NeoDcc , sounds like the cymbals are 10m behind the orchestra for example. The Vifa is reproducing them with no problems when fed the same signal through a simple capacitor, it just sound as if the tweeter is padded at the top in the NeoDcc and I have the suspicion that I need to test every single driver for polarity and every single solder that I made... There is a rabbit somewhere and I am going to be very cruel to it (me) when I find it

                                    Comment

                                    • JonW
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Jan 2006
                                      • 1582

                                      #63
                                      kravi4ka,

                                      Thanks for the kind words. I have not built the NeoDCC’s and it’s Jon’s design. So take this suggestion as possibly useless:

                                      I recommend that you play more with the value of the R12 resistor. (I am looking at the crossover in post #36, above.) The default is 2 ohms and I think that you are at 1.5 ohms now. Try 1 ohm, maybe 0.5 ohm, and also try no resistor there at all- put in a straight wire. See how each of those options sound. They may provide the top end that you are missing. Also, after you make a change, listen to it for a while, not only a short period. More treble may seem better at first but see if you still like the extra treble after some time or you want less treble in there.

                                      Try this simple resistor change before you go changing tweeters. Just my thoughts.

                                      Comment

                                      • kravi4ka
                                        Member
                                        • Feb 2006
                                        • 90

                                        #64
                                        A quick question for Jon - what is the value of L6 in the second iteration of the crossover? In the BOM and the first scheme it is 1.5 mH and in the wiring diagram you gave it is listed as 1.2 mH... Apologies again, just trying to make sure I have done everything correctly.

                                        Comment

                                        • ThomasW
                                          Moderator Emeritus
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 10934

                                          #65
                                          The BOM is correct, 1.5mH

                                          IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                          "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                          Comment

                                          • kravi4ka
                                            Member
                                            • Feb 2006
                                            • 90

                                            #66
                                            A quick update - I took the time to replace all capacitors in the signal path with Mundorfs - difference is night and day! Now I have to start listening to my cds again... 8O
                                            Jon, what a wonderful speaker!!!

                                            Comment

                                            • JonMarsh
                                              Mad Max Moderator
                                              • Aug 2000
                                              • 15261

                                              #67
                                              Interesting, and not surprising, as regards the caps! My experience is that they respond to everything in the signal path.

                                              Thanks for the kind words!

                                              Jon
                                              the AudioWorx
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                                              In Development...
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                                              Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                              Just ask Mr. Ohm....

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                                              • kravi4ka
                                                Member
                                                • Feb 2006
                                                • 90

                                                #68
                                                I am starting to play the Lottery, if the money is enough I will build the SDX-2, if not - just MR caps for the NeoDcc...

                                                ;x( ;x( ;x(

                                                Comment

                                                • heapatrouble
                                                  Member
                                                  • Feb 2009
                                                  • 48

                                                  #69
                                                  There are alternatives out there...

                                                  Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                  I've got some Corian for a project a couple of years ago, but never used it. It should work well, but it's hard to source- they keep it restricted to licensed contractors in the US who "normally" won't sell pieces of it. I'm still up in the air what to do with the pieces I have.
                                                  I'm pretty new to this forum and am just catching up with the wealth of information and ideas gathered here. I just thought that I'd point out that there are numerous possible alternatives to 'Corian' which spec the same, mill/machine the same and would work as well as the name brand but which are cheaper and more accessible. A friend of mine installed one of these alternatives as part of a kitchen remodel. To my recollection, he paid about $1400 for 22 linear feet of counter top. Keep in mind that counter top is about 2 feet or so deep. Anyhow, this worked out to be a really workable cost-effective solution and was a product which is the same as corian in every meaningful way.

                                                  David

                                                  Comment

                                                  • kravi4ka
                                                    Member
                                                    • Feb 2006
                                                    • 90

                                                    #70
                                                    Hi David,

                                                    Thanks a lot for the info! I am so satisfied with the results that I am just planning to keep the box I have now. I am definitely going to build a new box but the NeoDcc deserves a better room/house, I am working on that right now
                                                    Great speakers!
                                                    The waveguide designs are pretty interesting though, I am looking for a friend who is interested to invest in a pair that I will build 8)

                                                    Comment

                                                    • gmed
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Dec 2006
                                                      • 207

                                                      #71
                                                      tweeter orientation?

                                                      Jon, does the tweeter vertical orientation have any audible effect? I remember when I used the same tweeter recessed with a 0.75 roundover, someone told me that placement in the the horizontal position, there will be a change in the sound. The speakers are designed to be placed vertically, but I was thinking of using one of them horizontal.

                                                      Comment

                                                      • JonMarsh
                                                        Mad Max Moderator
                                                        • Aug 2000
                                                        • 15261

                                                        #72
                                                        Originally posted by gmed
                                                        Jon, does the tweeter vertical orientation have any audible effect? I remember when I used the same tweeter recessed with a 0.75 roundover, someone told me that placement in the the horizontal position, there will be a change in the sound. The speakers are designed to be placed vertically, but I was thinking of using one of them horizontal.
                                                        If you're referring to the NeoD CC design, these were explicitly designed to work either laid down as a center channel, or standing as a stereo mains or HT mains. In the latter case, it's recommended to put the midrange toward the inside, because the way the phase works, you won't get a dip moving towards the off axis toward the midrange direction, but moving the other way substantially, you'll eventually get a dip in the crossover region between mid and tweeter. So, with the mids towards the center, and the speaker not even toed in, things work pretty well a fair distance from the center position either direction.

                                                        Laid down, they have a very flat characteristic up to +/- 40 degrees off axis, due to the crossover frequencies and vertical alignment in this case of the midrange and tweeter.
                                                        the AudioWorx
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                                                        In Development...
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                                                        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                        Comment

                                                        • savage25xtreme
                                                          Senior Member
                                                          • Dec 2008
                                                          • 305

                                                          #73
                                                          I took Gmed's post to mean the tweeter has a vertical and horizontal associated with it as a driver.
                                                          Gavin

                                                          BAMTM Build

                                                          Comment

                                                          • JonMarsh
                                                            Mad Max Moderator
                                                            • Aug 2000
                                                            • 15261

                                                            #74
                                                            Yeah, well, he also was talking about using it with a 3/4" roundover, as I believe John Krutke had done in some project.

                                                            Mounting it as I do, with a felt level surround, I haven't seen "significant" directionality of response with regards to the flange axis- in the application I've used it, it didn't really show up compared with other effects.
                                                            the AudioWorx
                                                            Natalie P
                                                            M8ta
                                                            Modula Neo DCC
                                                            Modula MT XE
                                                            Modula Xtreme
                                                            Isiris
                                                            Wavecor Ardent

                                                            SMJ
                                                            Minerva Monitor
                                                            Calliope
                                                            Ardent D

                                                            In Development...
                                                            Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
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                                                            Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                            Modula PWB
                                                            Calliope CC Supreme
                                                            Natalie P Ultra
                                                            Natalie P Supreme
                                                            Janus BP1 Sub


                                                            Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                            Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                            Comment

                                                            • gmed
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Dec 2006
                                                              • 207

                                                              #75
                                                              This is what I'm talking about ThomasW. I realized this after I built it. If I Use it behind a screen, I'll be fine, but I don't know how it will affect the sound if I place it horizontally.

                                                              Image not available
                                                              Last edited by theSven; 24 July 2023, 15:23 Monday. Reason: Remove broken image link

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