Ardent Speaker Camp

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  • CraigJ
    Senior Member
    • Feb 2006
    • 518

    Originally posted by Evil Twin
    All of the drivers to evaluate have been purchased. A series of test cabinet constructions is nearly complete.

    Patience, young Padawan...
    Yes Master,

    I’m just excited to finally build my first complete speakers designed by Jon Marsh. I’ve admired the Ardent and Kurosawa Koncept System designs, and after all these long years, I am finally ready to attempt my first speaker build with passive crossovers.

    Retirement is so close, yet soooo far away..............;x(

    Comment

    • Evil Twin
      Super Senior Member
      • Nov 2004
      • 1531

      Originally posted by CraigJ
      Yes Master,



      Retirement is so close, yet soooo far away..............;x(

      I could have written that last sentence myself... I have certainly been pondering it frequently...

      In fact, this local holiday break will largely be spent preparing a Professional Education Seminar that is due for review on Jan 6 and submission on Jan 10. It is proceeding according to plan, events unfolding as I have seen...

      Yet there are so many other things I would rather be working on the next 14 days...

      New equipment has been obtained for outfitting the test facilities, also... this only makes the deferred gratification more frustrating...



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      Note that as development stands, there are likely to be several possible configurations to chose from, depending on preference, inclination and means, including versions using the Wavecor Ardent style crossover and likely two or more using a true Duelund style crossover...

      Test systems are being developed in a modular fashion with separate woofer and midrange/tweeter assemblies. One of the midrange/tweeter assembly versions is may become a mini monitor, and/or a small MTM.


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      DFAL
      Dark Force Acoustic Labs

      A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

      Comment

      • dwk
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2005
        • 251

        Originally posted by Evil Twin


        Note that as development stands, there are likely to be several possible configurations to chose from, depending on preference, inclination and means, including versions using the Wavecor Ardent style crossover and likely two or more using a true Duelund style crossover...

        Test systems are being developed in a modular fashion with separate woofer and midrange/tweeter assemblies. One of the midrange/tweeter assembly versions is may become a mini monitor, and/or a small MTM.
        Are these variations different MT combos on top of the same dual-Anarchy bass section?

        I didn't expect to see the Empire advocating for Anarchy, but these are indeed difficult times. (or has someone already used that one?)

        The little Anarchy drivers are pretty impressive - dual Anarchys in 1.5 cu ft tuned to 30 match or exceed a RSS265HO + RSS265PR above 30Hz, and if WinISD isn't losing it's mind, offers ~4dB better efficiency

        Comment

        • Evil Twin
          Super Senior Member
          • Nov 2004
          • 1531

          Your points are well made. The Anarchy’s may not be the ultimate solution, but they offer very high value and low distortion at above average output levels. The XBL2 motor is the key.

          The other woofer solution being readied for test is dual or triple Accuton AS168’s. The hemispherical cone gives advantages in off axis behavior and the Cell motor construction results in an effective acoustic origin near the mounting plane. These are all benefits for the Duelund approach. Further, they model very well with a reasonable trade off between sensitivity and extension, and have fairly desirable motor and cone parameters.


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          This is modeled in a 50L enclosure for two wired in parallel. These are 9 ohm drivers, and with capable amplifiers using three in parallel is feasible, as Vimberg has shown.

          Now, consider that this is larger than the 40L used by Jonmarsh for the Wavecor woofers, but imagine if instead of a cone midrange requiring 10L or so in midrange enclosure, a suitable dome midrange were used? One capable of fulfilling requirements in a Duelund alignment with a center frequency of 1600Hz, and an aleph coefficients of 2.7? Then the net enclosure volume would essentially be identical, but we would have a base line sensitivity of nearly 90 dB before baffle step loss.

          This is not to say that the AS168 represent a benchmark level of performance, but initial parameter verification shows they are worthy of investigation.


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          And for those who might be concerned, this image is not photoshopped or "faked" in any manner, as is popular on your communication nets these days...
          DFAL
          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

          Comment

          • Scottg
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2006
            • 335

            Comment

            • CraigJ
              Senior Member
              • Feb 2006
              • 518

              ‘triple Accuton AS168’s’ x 2 = h:

              Comment

              • Bear
                Super Senior Member
                • Dec 2008
                • 1038

                Originally posted by Evil Twin
                Now, consider that this is larger than the 40L used by Jonmarsh for the Wavecor woofers, but imagine if instead of a cone midrange requiring 10L or so in midrange enclosure, a suitable dome midrange were used? One capable of fulfilling requirements in a Duelund alignment with a center frequency of 1600Hz, and an aleph coefficients of 2.7? Then the net enclosure volume would essentially be identical, but we would have a base line sensitivity of nearly 90 dB before baffle step loss.
                The Neo D CC lives!
                Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                Comment

                • Evil Twin
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Nov 2004
                  • 1531

                  Exactly!

                  But this time we will hopefully realize more of the potential, with better options for woofers and tweeters, and NOT using a somewhat compromiseD transfer function that is similar to Duelund but not exactly so...,

                  At this time a combination of experience, new tooling systems (including some just arrived today) and superior modeling tools make possible new levels of performance- excuses will not be accepted.

                  Hopefully it will not be necessary to go for three’s the charm...
                  Last edited by Evil Twin; 23 December 2019, 23:39 Monday.
                  DFAL
                  Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                  A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                  Comment

                  • dwk
                    Senior Member
                    • Apr 2005
                    • 251

                    Originally posted by CraigJ
                    ‘triple Accuton AS168’s’ x 2 = h:
                    Yeah, clearly the option for folks who feel that the Wavecor version is inexpensive enough to attract impoverished Rebel Scum. $3600 in woofers - I think that exceeds the entire driver budget of the Wavecor version.

                    Comment

                    • Evil Twin
                      Super Senior Member
                      • Nov 2004
                      • 1531

                      Originally posted by dwk
                      Yeah, clearly the option for folks who feel that the Wavecor version is inexpensive enough to attract impoverished Rebel Scum. $3600 in woofers - I think that exceeds the entire driver budget of the Wavecor version.
                      Well, you must break a few bank accounts if one is to truly engage in wretched excess, by definition. For now, I believe exploring the merits of a dual AS168 per cabinet may suffice...
                      DFAL
                      Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                      A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                      Comment

                      • Bear
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Dec 2008
                        • 1038

                        Originally posted by Evil Twin
                        Exactly!

                        But this time we will hopefully realize more of the potential, with better options for woofers and tweeters, and NOT using a somewhat compromiseD transfer function that is similar to Duelund but not exactly so...,

                        At this time a combination of experience, new tooling systems (including some just arrived today) and superior modeling tools make possible new levels of performance- excuses will not be accepted.

                        Hopefully it will not be necessary to go for three’s the charm...
                        Despite the depth and breadth of the Imperial reach, few Imperial contractors have seen fit to provide worthy candidates for dome frigates. Sienar Baja has one coming out, allegedly. There are a couple from Morellia, but Is my lord intending to bring the ‘-724 droid out of carbonite for this application?

                        The R5S2 unit did well on its prior mission, but its time in my lord’s favor seems to have passed.
                        Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                        Comment

                        • Evil Twin
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Nov 2004
                          • 1531

                          One should consider the inherent bias and favor with which a “Dark Horse” candidate like the RS52 may be looked upon- it has proven itself in the past, and with improvements in the supporting technology may yet find a key role in events. A complete set of measurements and crossover model has already been prepared for the RS52 + DA25, and functional targets achieved- the last stage of that development track is finding the optimum costs/performance matching woofers, and also perhaps just the optimum performance partner...

                          The 724 test cabinet is constructed and being readied for operational tests - there are known issues to consider, including top end behavior and rear exit resonance damping, but given the investment to date, a thorough examination is warranted, though currently I have a significant degree of skepticism.

                          Likewise, the C168 also has a test enclosure prepared and will be examined carefully, but also with a substantial shift in the center frequency, possibly some adjustment in the aleph coefficient.

                          In the real world, we do not have an idealized range of drivers and driver behaviors, but rather some discrete and disparate performance capabilities that must be evaluated on their individual merits and considered in the contexts of a tailored system concept intended to work with their strengths and limitations.

                          What the end results look like will be interesting to see... then to judge in each case. There may be valid arguments for each solution- in which case, it is up to the constructor, of course.
                          DFAL
                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                          Comment

                          • Bear
                            Super Senior Member
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 1038

                            Much like TEK a long, long time ago, I, too, am finding myself in need of a new center channel. My aspirations for a great adventure are not quite as extent as Lord TEK's, nor is my poor farming village's harvest budget. But I do have multiple R5S2 units in carbonite, plus a small fleet of SW223 star destroyers with which to pair them, should the need arise for home world defense -- all acquired at a discount as Imperial fortunes caused them to appear "on sale" in certain Outer Rim territories, eh.

                            However, the ultimate disposition of that fleet may beg for a different thread, and in a different milieu. Two ships can be separated from the fleet, though, should an appropriate target present itself.
                            Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                            Comment

                            • Evil Twin
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Nov 2004
                              • 1531

                              Originally posted by Bear
                              Much like TEK a long, long time ago, I, too, am finding myself in need of a new center channel. My aspirations for a great adventure are not quite as extent as Lord TEK's, nor is my poor farming village's harvest budget. But I do have multiple R5S2 units in carbonite, plus a small fleet of SW223 star destroyers with which to pair them, should the need arise for home world defense -- all acquired at a discount as Imperial fortunes caused them to appear "on sale" in certain Outer Rim territories, eh.

                              However, the ultimate disposition of that fleet may beg for a different thread, and in a different milieu. Two ships can be separated from the fleet, though, should an appropriate target present itself.
                              There is no reason your requirements cannot be investigated in the context of this current adventure- I, too, have SW223's on hand, and an additional set of components for test cabinets on the way which could be diverted to those. The extended clean bandwidth of the SW223 lends itself to this possibility, given it's 4kHz breakup mode.

                              And I, too, will need a center channel once my exile to the outer rim is complete at the end of next year...

                              Motivations and path coincide. This could be a most interesting resurrection of the Neo D CC concept explicitly, but it will be nowhere near as small.

                              Also, for a CC mode speaker, I would probably run both woofers with the same bandwidth, while the contemplated tower configurations could be called 3.5 ways as regards the current modeling effort.
                              DFAL
                              Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                              A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                              Comment

                              • Bear
                                Super Senior Member
                                • Dec 2008
                                • 1038

                                Originally posted by Evil Twin
                                There is no reason your requirements cannot be investigated in the context of this current adventure- I, too, have SW223's on hand, and an additional set of components for test cabinets on the way which could be diverted to those. The extended clean bandwidth of the SW223 lends itself to this possibility, given it's 4kHz breakup mode.

                                And I, too, will need a center channel once my exile to the outer rim is complete at the end of next year...

                                Motivations and path coincide. This could be a most interesting resurrection of the Neo D CC concept explicitly, but it will be nowhere near as small.

                                Also, for a CC mode speaker, I would probably run both woofers with the same bandwidth, while the contemplated tower configurations could be called 3.5 ways as regards the current modeling effort.
                                I was headed down that path myself for new Left and Right towers. Being currently confined to quarters in a prison described in the local tongue as "an apartment", any thoughts of manufacturing have proven irrelevant. That was until I came upon a ragtag band of rebels vaguely in my area who operate an illicit outpost of a "shop" just bout 200 klicks south of Black Spire Outpost (sdfwa.org). The credits required for accessing their 'Mech seems reasonable and the details of using such things will be investigated in the new year.


                                Conveniently, said hive of scum and villainy is within less than a handful of clicks from the headquarters of that disreputable firm, "CaliBamboo". Transport and storage between the two are high on the list of investigations, and may involve my own private version of "Smuggler's Run". Alternatively, if I cannot find transport and storage adequate for my current circumstances, Northwest Bamboo seems to have pricing unaffected by recent skirmishes between the Empire and Trade Federation:



                                Any actual experiences with said vendor are appreciated.
                                Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                Comment

                                • Evil Twin
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Nov 2004
                                  • 1531

                                  Proof of Concept in preparation

                                  Preliminary investigations using older SW223 data from different cabinets is quite encouraging when combined with the new test alignment for RS52 and DA25.

                                  I should have something useful to post and share in a few days, but consider it a proof of concept, not a finished design with a specific cabinet. The results bode well for the already planned variants, though.


                                  And the tooling setup proceeds- I temporarily reside in what the local economic system calls a "rental condo" and it is equipped with a modest outdoor patio and storage closet- making certain circumspect construction operations feasible.

                                  Today I finished unpacking and setting up a SawStop Jobsite Pro, and installing a preferred blade (Freud), and I have to say it is in a very different design and construction category than typical job site saws.

                                  Of course, it's not in a typical price class, either.


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                                  DFAL
                                  Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                  A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                  Comment

                                  • Bear
                                    Super Senior Member
                                    • Dec 2008
                                    • 1038

                                    That's definitely a price class consistent with SawStop's new ownership. I wonder if the color scheme will change over time...

                                    Last edited by Bear; 25 December 2019, 14:33 Wednesday.
                                    Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                    Comment

                                    • Bear
                                      Super Senior Member
                                      • Dec 2008
                                      • 1038

                                      Originally posted by Evil Twin
                                      Preliminary investigations using older SW223 data from different cabinets is quite encouraging when combined with the new test alignment for RS52 and DA25.

                                      I should have something useful to post and share in a few days, but consider it a proof of concept, not a finished design with a specific cabinet. The results bode well for the already planned variants, though.
                                      One idea that I keep toying with is putting the 10F/4424 into a 3D-printed enclosure. It can be expensive (e.g., latest 3D Hubs quote for me was >$100 for a 1L cylinder), but you do get most of the ease of construction advantages of the dome mids, while also getting an extra octave of bottom end (400Hz Fc vs. 800+ Hz Fc). As I keep envisioning it, this comes in handy in a center channel where the left and right woofers can cause combing in the upper bass/lower midrange area.
                                      Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                      Comment

                                      • Evil Twin
                                        Super Senior Member
                                        • Nov 2004
                                        • 1531

                                        the Proof of Concept development is quite promising...

                                        That seems a reasonable path to consider, and the 10F/4424 is well known for this kind of application.

                                        You might find it worth your time to investigate the SB12MNRX25-4 as an alternative that may be even easier to work with and offer a high level of performance at more reasonable cost.




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                                        My own goals have been seeking to select a midrange with an extended top range and dispersion that matches well with dome tweeters, considering the sensitivity of the ear in that span, particularly the presence range.


                                        Meanwhile, development of the proof of concept crossover has progressed to the point where one might mistake it for a finished version. That must await having measured driver data in an actual finalized enclosure design. However, considering the enclosures this data was captured on originally, it is unlikely to need substantial revisions.

                                        This result includes the driver time origins in modeling the crossover. The results appear at this point to be quite satisfactory... but this does not include off axis data.

                                        Given the nature of the drivers being used and the radiating area, I think this approach will be vindicated with additional measurement data.


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                                        DFAL
                                        Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                        A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                        Comment

                                        • Evil Twin
                                          Super Senior Member
                                          • Nov 2004
                                          • 1531

                                          Originally posted by Bear
                                          That's definitely a price class consistent with SawStop's new ownership. I wonder if the color scheme will change over time...

                                          https://toolguyd.com/festool-sawstop...ped-table-saw/
                                          This was not something I had prior knowledge of, but it makes sense looking at the overall market positions. I have a Festool Random orbital sander in storage in the outer rim...
                                          DFAL
                                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                          Comment

                                          • Bear
                                            Super Senior Member
                                            • Dec 2008
                                            • 1038

                                            Originally posted by Evil Twin
                                            That seems a reasonable path to consider, and the 10F/4424 is well known for this kind of application.

                                            You might find it worth your time to investigate the SB12MNRX25-4 as an alternative that may be even easier to work with and offer a high level of performance at more reasonable cost.
                                            Thanks! I'll keep it in mind. However, when Ayrton Senna offers you driving lessons, I think it may be a good idea to watch how that progresses, even if he's using a standard sports car for the lesson.

                                            (I had forgotten why I'd dismissed the sb12 before, and then I looked again at the HD measurements from John/Zaph and Evgeniy/HiFiCompass -- that rising third order is still off-putting. We'll see how the replacement looks if someone gets around to measuring it soon...)
                                            Last edited by Bear; 26 December 2019, 09:06 Thursday.
                                            Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                            Comment

                                            • Bear
                                              Super Senior Member
                                              • Dec 2008
                                              • 1038

                                              Originally posted by Evil Twin
                                              This was not something I had prior knowledge of, but it makes sense looking at the overall market positions. I have a Festool Random orbital sander in storage in the outer rim...
                                              They also bought the Origin Shaper. That tool definitely had a Festool vibe even before the company was purchased.
                                              Welcome to Rivendell, Mr. Anderson.

                                              Comment

                                              • TEK
                                                Super Senior Member
                                                • Oct 2002
                                                • 1670

                                                Originally posted by Bear
                                                Much like TEK a long, long time ago, I, too, am finding myself in need of a new center channel.
                                                .
                                                Still interested...
                                                -TEK


                                                Many of the great achievements of the world were accomplished by tired and discouraged men who kept on working...

                                                Comment

                                                • Evil Twin
                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                  • Nov 2004
                                                  • 1531

                                                  Materials for the construction of a test system are in route, and more drivers are arriving early next week...

                                                  Let’s see how this pans out, but the POC crossover investigation is encouraging. I plan to investigate a version with the SW223’s and also with the Anarchy 708’s.
                                                  DFAL
                                                  Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                  A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                  Comment

                                                  • kevinlin1013
                                                    Member
                                                    • Dec 2010
                                                    • 47

                                                    I saw that Jon tested the 18WU instead of ER18.
                                                    Is it possible to provide the crossover of 18WU version?
                                                    Thank you very much!

                                                    Comment

                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                      • 15259

                                                      As many files as I have for the original Ardent project, you'd think I'd be able to lay my hands on that, but I only modified one cabinet to test with the Scanspeak drivers (still have the drivers) and the required updates were pretty basic-

                                                      Let's keep in mind that the first Generation Ardent was a Duelund concept design- which has some very specific amplitude and phase targets. So if one is keeping the same driver complement and center frequency and aleph for the design, than it's basically just a question of adjusting the crossover filters for the section you're changing out, and then rebalancing. with the 18WU/8747T-00 woofer, (which is one of my favorite 7" woofers, with it's underhung motor- but pricey!) that rebalancing of levels is substantial- about 4 dB padding required on the midrange and tweeter sections. My recollection is that with adjusting the impedance compensation elements slightly on the SS woofers, I could use essentially the same network, but had to add an elliptic filter to suppress the very high HF breakup modes. That was done with the second inductor in the LF network. The LF zobel was also re-tuned, as well as the impedance RC comp.


                                                      This was the calculated response target for the crossovers for either version of the design. The Duelund approach is demanding to design to, but once you get each individual section tuned correctly for the specific CF and aleph, then swapping in a different mid or woofer is easier than it might be for a conventional design where you're tweaking and playing with individual driver networks in tandem to try to get them to match up properly.


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                                                      And in the case of this version of the Ardent, the effective driver offset changes from the cabinet were necessary to get a forward response characteristics into the listening plane with the correct time alignment of the drivers- as the C79 and the woofers have acoustic origins that are not coincident with the baffle surface.


                                                      For reference, this is the RC-2 version of the crossover, which still has the ER18RNX, but has shifted to the 6640 Be tweeter. It's a rather large crossover... remained external. My conclusions after testing with the SS woofers was that migrating to the larger Wavecor woofers with their special motor design, very clean cone, and higher output capability, along with lower price, made more sense. Using a derivative of the NatalieP crossover concept was also adopted to reduce complexity and cost.

                                                      And as they say, the rest is history.


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                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                      Natalie P
                                                      M8ta
                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                      Isiris
                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                      SMJ
                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                      Calliope
                                                      Ardent D

                                                      In Development...
                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                      Modula PWB
                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                      Comment

                                                      • kevinlin1013
                                                        Member
                                                        • Dec 2010
                                                        • 47

                                                        Thank you for the detailed explanation and sorry for my late reply.
                                                        It seems relative difficult to change the ER18 to 18WU.
                                                        From the office FR curve , the 18WU has the same or even much more energy around 100~200Hz then the ER18 but the SPL of mid and mid high is smaller.



                                                        Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                        As many files as I have for the original Ardent project, you'd think I'd be able to lay my hands on that, but I only modified one cabinet to test with the Scanspeak drivers (still have the drivers) and the required updates were pretty basic-

                                                        Let's keep in mind that the first Generation Ardent was a Duelund concept design- which has some very specific amplitude and phase targets. So if one is keeping the same driver complement and center frequency and aleph for the design, than it's basically just a question of adjusting the crossover filters for the section you're changing out, and then rebalancing. with the 18WU/8747T-00 woofer, (which is one of my favorite 7" woofers, with it's underhung motor- but pricey!) that rebalancing of levels is substantial- about 4 dB padding required on the midrange and tweeter sections. My recollection is that with adjusting the impedance compensation elements slightly on the SS woofers, I could use essentially the same network, but had to add an elliptic filter to suppress the very high HF breakup modes. That was done with the second inductor in the LF network. The LF zobel was also re-tuned, as well as the impedance RC comp.


                                                        This was the calculated response target for the crossovers for either version of the design. The Duelund approach is demanding to design to, but once you get each individual section tuned correctly for the specific CF and aleph, then swapping in a different mid or woofer is easier than it might be for a conventional design where you're tweaking and playing with individual driver networks in tandem to try to get them to match up properly.


                                                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]30477[/ATTACH]

                                                        And in the case of this version of the Ardent, the effective driver offset changes from the cabinet were necessary to get a forward response characteristics into the listening plane with the correct time alignment of the drivers- as the C79 and the woofers have acoustic origins that are not coincident with the baffle surface.


                                                        For reference, this is the RC-2 version of the crossover, which still has the ER18RNX, but has shifted to the 6640 Be tweeter. It's a rather large crossover... remained external. My conclusions after testing with the SS woofers was that migrating to the larger Wavecor woofers with their special motor design, very clean cone, and higher output capability, along with lower price, made more sense. Using a derivative of the NatalieP crossover concept was also adopted to reduce complexity and cost.

                                                        And as they say, the rest is history.


                                                        [ATTACH=CONFIG]30478[/ATTACH]

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