Ardent Speaker Camp

[JonMarsh]

So, what we would really love;

Ardent w/
ScanSpeak Illuminator D3004/6640-00 tweeters
Accuton C173-6-90 mids
Dual ScanSpeak Illuminator 18WU/8747T-00 woofers

My wife doesn't like the square C79s. She says I should save up to get the better drivers. It will take a long time anyway.

What about using grille clothes? :W

Seriously, what you propose is doable, but considering SPL ranges and capability and "matching" the drivers, with the C90 mids, I'd make a strong case for the Wavecor 8-3/4" woofer, considering their Xmax and Sd (radiating area).

[bigg]

Ardent beauties

Hey Jon. I realize that. But in my house the Illuminators will have plenty of bass anyway. And the Wavecors, I don't even know where I can get them and they are a leeto bit more expensive. But for the ultimate in some of your followers homes, I'm sure your choice would be right.;x(

[bigg]

It wasn't that long ago that you liked the Illuminators. The Wavecors must really be something nice to seduce you away from the Illuminators so quickly.

Still thinking about it.

[JonMarsh]

Hey- I think the illuminators are great drivers- it comes down to how the Wavecor's measure and model in the same size enclosure- and the extra Sd and performance. With the extra rear venting of the illuminators, I like them if you're going to cross higher than this three way requires- but here, you know, the enemy of really good is excellent! Stacked Wavecors is a bit like cheating in the sense that the Aurasounds are. They will require a little more amplifier oomph, but the enclosure doesn't have to grow at all.

The easiest place to get them is from Solen, though you can get them also in the USA from AVPartsVault, which I did for one of my first two. Yes, I wish the price were a bit lower. Now, if you want to go with the C90 and keep things small, then possibly something like the 10" Seas L26R04Y would be interesting, except that the box would be much bigger, and the sensitivity considerably lower! Not really practical, unless beamed, perhaps.

[Face]

According to SEAS, there isn't enough of a demand for an 8ohm version of the ROY. Too bad as a pair would raise the sensitivity to a more useful level.

[dar47]

Hey Jon. I realize that. But in my house the Illuminators will have plenty of bass anyway. And the Wavecors, I don't even know where I can get them and they are a leeto bit more expensive. But for the ultimate in some of your followers homes, I'm sure your choice would be right.;x(

The Scan 18WU/8747T-00 are very nice, but are $350. can. Maybe they are cheaper where you are. The Wavecor SW223BD01's can be had for $258.06 and should do better than holding their own. I can't wait for the Wavecor Ardents. :P

[Beau]

My C173-6-90's are still up for sale. Pm me if interested.
Cheers.

[bigg]

Thanks Dar47.

Hey Jon,

I hope you aren't working on a crossover for the preferences I listed. Unless others want it. I'm not going to be building these. In the future i might try to build the Isisris, but I doubt it. Still love reading the thread though.

[JonMarsh]

Interesting going back through this and seeing how things have evolved... on a variety of fronts. When the WC Ardent build is finished, I'll append key data to this thread, too.

[Evil Twin]

A rebirth of the original Ardent?

While Kevin Haskins has shut down DIY Cable the Ex Anarchys will live on.

There is a pre order here:

http://www.diysoundgroup.com/anarchy-pre-order.html

Delivery to be in Oct 2013.

It is remarkable how some aphorisms carry over in many circumstances- sometimes the circle of life is truly a wheel, and while somethings pass, others carry on, to be discovered and re-used at a later day...

In discussions with different parties, it has been mentioned that a high performance but lower cost version of the Ardent might be very interesting, especially with the advent of CNC based component fabrication... perhaps even one more focused on the requirements of Home Theater, with a continued focus on linearity of response, but even more emphasis on low distortion and output level capability down to moderately low frequencies- music range, but expecting a subwoofer for HT.


There is now another Evil three way design study underway, to evaluate the potential to address these requirements...

So far, it is promising... most promising.

[dwk]

It is remarkable how some aphorisms carry over in many circumstances- sometimes the circle of life is truly a wheel, and while somethings pass, others carry on, to be discovered and re-used at a later day...

In discussions with different parties, it has been mentioned that a high performance but lower cost version of the Ardent might be very interesting, especially with the advent of CNC based component fabrication... perhaps even one more focused on the requirements of Home Theater, with a continued focus on linearity of response, but even more emphasis on low distortion and output level capability down to moderately low frequencies- music range, but expecting a subwoofer for HT.


There is now another Evil three way design study underway, to evaluate the potential to address these requirements...

So far, it is promising... most promising.


[ATTACH=CONFIG]29712[/ATTACH]

Wow. Unexpected thread revival. Was the initial Ardent work really 10 years ago?? The mind boggles. Maybe this is just some sort of Imperial time-manipulation trickery.


The 'budget Ardent' seems to be the idea that just won't go away, despite the fact that every time someone seemed poised to start on such a thing in earnest they threw in the towel and just went for the Wavecor version once they saw how much work was involved. I probably already posted it in this thread way back, but I always thought that a dual Anarchy/Scan 10F/602000 (or 602010) lineup would be well suited - high-value drivers that 'should be' pretty easy to work with. Lots of new choices to consider though, so I'm definitely interested in watching where this goes.

[Evil Twin]

Wow. Unexpected thread revival. Was the initial Ardent work really 10 years ago?? The mind boggles. Maybe this is just some sort of Imperial time-manipulation trickery.


The 'budget Ardent' seems to be the idea that just won't go away, despite the fact that every time someone seemed poised to start on such a thing in earnest they threw in the towel and just went for the Wavecor version once they saw how much work was involved. I probably already posted it in this thread way back, but I always thought that a dual Anarchy/Scan 10F/602000 (or 602010) lineup would be well suited - high-value drivers that 'should be' pretty easy to work with. Lots of new choices to consider though, so I'm definitely interested in watching where this goes.

You see clearly the basis for the "fundamentals" if this objective is to be fulfilled...

In fact, coming across a double pair of the very early Anarchy woofers in my storage facility triggered what might be likened to a flashback - and a clear intuition that now might be the time where all the pieces come together... as another recent post suggests, revisiting the legacy to go back to the future...

A double pair of recent production Anarchy's are here- they seem identical to the original ones, except for signage on the driver.

The low distortion, high SPL capability, and linear on and off axis response of the Peerless DA25TX00-08 makes gives it the strongest mandate for the high frequencies- with measured and subjective performance that no only outclasses the the ones used in the first generation Ardent, but also the Wavecor Ardent.

Several midrange driver candidates have been identified, and the first test enclosure for midrange + tweeter is already built... and a proof of concept cabinet for woofers is nearly complete. I shall have results this week or early next.


Polar plots for the DA25...






A concept crossover for the planned driver impedance has already been formulated... based on the Duelund concept, with a center frequency of 900Hz, and an aleph of about 3...




Intriguing characteristics of the Duelund concepts are that the drivers are always in the same relative phase with each other, and there is only one phase rotation, and low group delay.

The target is reducing driver costs to 1/3 to 1/4 of the original configurations. It is not clear yet what cost reductions may be possible with careful selection of components for the filters.

The cabinet design for now will be a modified version of the first generation cabinet, built with maple ply, bamboo ply, and BB ply. With that I cannot bring costs down- but Steve may be able to make the effort less burdensome for other builders.

Once a functional proof of concept study has validated the full blown construction effort, a new thread will be started... and a New Adventure.

[Evil Twin]

And here, a Satori + DA25 experimental system...




Highlighting aspects of this tweeter's capabilities

[ergo]

Wau, something very promising is forming here indeed. Will be following with great interest.

[augerpro]

The low distortion, high SPL capability, and linear on and off axis response of the Peerless DA25TX00-08 makes gives it the strongest mandate for the high frequencies- with measured and subjective performance that no only outclasses the the ones used in the first generation Ardent, but also the Wavecor Ardent.

Wow, bold statement! I have one of these sitting around. What subjective opinion do you have?

[Evil Twin]

Wow, bold statement! I have one of these sitting around. What subjective opinion do you have?

Clear, grain free, surprising extension off axis, (measurements bear this out), and surprisingly dynamic for a direct radiator.

In the Satori two way test system, it works well with a variety of material, but particularly pleases in guitar tone and harmonic density for upper midrange and presence range dense instruments-

It is definitely not a run of the mill design- I would suspect it was done in partnership with some OEM, and the exclusivity period has expired. But that is mere surmise.

I have measured many tweeters over the last 15 years, and quite a few at a wide range of price points in the last six months, but the only dome application I can think of where this wouldn't be my first choice to consider, is where unusual high sensitivity might be needed, such as an MTM with 6ND430- then BlieSMa is the one to consider carefully.

Look at the distortion plot of the Satori two way above. Clearly the tweeter outclasses the woofer... though they were matched up carefully, as regards crossover, with expensive components for both. Crossover point is 1800Hz.

But listen to it yourself- I have had messages from other's trying it out who are similarly impressed.

My favorite modification is to take two apart, glue the two front plates together, re-tape up with Kapton the insulation, and reassemble just one tweeter, having a spare motor assembly. however, the motor appears to be robust. Some day I must really take one apart to see what is in the rear structure. Perhaps it was just a convenient way to get the leads coming out the back without a conventional terminal set.

Very odd, but as Charles Hansen would say, were he still alive, "Efficacious"

[Scottg]

-for the mid you might also consider the Aurum Cantus AC130/50CK for that *harder cone diaphragm (..with low distortion). ..though like the Satori, it's also not as linear as you'd want for a driver.

*propagation velocity should be slightly beyond that of traditional aramid/epoxy diaphragm (which is significantly higher then Al or Ti diaphragms).


Zaph has it measured at the bottom of his blog page:

http://www.zaphaudio.com/blog.html

There are of course the SB "ceramic" mid-woofers as well.

[Evil Twin]

Finding the "ideal" driver for the midrange is no simple task... several candidates are on hand for testing... while there are hopes that the desired results can be found quickly, and at an attractive price, this part of the search could take considerable effort, unless the most promising current candidate delivers. There seem to be many drivers with reasonably well behaved cones and mediocre motors, or the exact reverse...

[Zvu]

What size of midrange would be preffered ? I'm guessing 5" max for crossover between 2 and 3 kHz ?

[augerpro]

Are only hard cones considered? SB just put the Textreme Satori drivers up on their site. They've corrected the paper cones wobble @1-2khz, so near Revelator smooth but with the lower distortion Satori motor. I thought the Dayton Epique nicely balanced these two extremes, but this new TX Satori might be a better choice if it comes in cheaper.

I'll second Scott's rec for the AC, they measure really nice. But AC is flaky with keeping product lines alive.

[Evil Twin]

Are only hard cones considered? SB just put the Textreme Satori drivers up on their site. They've corrected the paper cones wobble @1-2khz, so near Revelator smooth but with the lower distortion Satori motor. I thought the Dayton Epique nicely balanced these two extremes, but this new TX Satori might be a better choice if it comes in cheaper.

I'll second Scott's rec for the AC, they measure really nice. But AC is flaky with keeping product lines alive.

All are good points...

I do have the Epique’s on hand... the behavior with energy storage at 4kHz seems to rule them out; I also had great hopes for the motor, but for an underhung design the distortion results for the 8” have been disappointing.

Yes, I agree AC is flaky both with regards to continuity and also consistency... most unfortunate.

The Satori TeXtreme drivers are a significant improvement over the prior MW16P for conventional two ways and possibly some three way configurations, but the energy storage at 5kHz is troublesome. Still, this is a considerable step forward, though posts from the Munich High End referring to OEM only are not surprising, but disappointing for experimenters such as us.

[Evil Twin]

What size of midrange would be preffered ? I'm guessing 5" max for crossover between 2 and 3 kHz ?

A 4-5” device is expected to be the best choice- the Duelund configuration has it’s rewards, but makes high demands in bandwidth, especially for the midrange, which ideally should be controllable up to 10kHz.

There are clear trade-offs between output level capability and bandwidth and freedom from energy storage at 5kHz or above, looking at a variety of drivers.

With the cost savings on the tweeter and woofers already essentially “in place”, if necessary, more expensive options will be considered- even continuing with the C79. That, and the 724... but the current published data and changes from previous versions are of concern, and the data I already have for the 724 does not completely please me...

Although I would much prefer to avoid the out of phase resonance Around 1500Hz of the Satori 5” midrange, it may be the lesser of evils overall, considering a range of candidates, and would otherwise be easy to work with for this application. And the price is not unreasonable. If only there were a TeXtreme version of that driver...

There is a dark horse candidate for which I’ve finished a test enclosure yesterday, that should be measured next week- another logistics run is scheduled to the outer rim this Friday, so no time for that on the weekend.

Logistics issues are proceeding apace, as most of the construction materials are now in route. The cabinet will have some similarities to the Evil Three way design study, as there will be no veneering, and external surfaces will be maple or bamboo.

[Zvu]

Have you considered Tang Band W4-1337SDF ? A ferrite motor version that, according to K&T measures very good (better than Nd).

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?43574-Low-distortion-tweeter-for-MTM

There is that breakup that needs to be tackled with in a crossover, but i think it is high enough not to present an issue. It is low priced, obtainable in US and Europe for a reasonable amount of money. Copper sleeve makes distortion quite good given your intended passband.

[nopomo]

Fountek FM135D-II might be one of those "great motor, middling cone" drivers.

Tang Band W4-1757SB could be suitable, but is no longer stocked by PE (although the MOQ is only 200 pieces).

NE123W-04 has less midrange nonsense than the Satoris, and it's available, and cheap. If only it came with a hard cone.

Visaton AL130M?


The hard cone SB12/15 models seem tough to beat in this category.

[augerpro]

There are 16cm and 13cm Textreme woofers coming, but they didn't give a date.

[Evil Twin]

On hand to test include the Visaton AL130, the Fountek FW135H, and the Satori MR13PNW, plus the Accuton C90-6-724, SB12MNRX25-4 and the 12MU/4731.

[Scottg]

-turns out there is an even smaller diameter version of the Aurum Cantus driver I didn't know about:

https://www.parts-express.com/aurum-cantus-ac120-50ck-5-midwoofer--296-440

-still, a less than easy driver to work with. ops:

Note that Qe is very low on this one - should make for a very detailed driver (despite the higher Mms for its Sd).

..couldn't find any independent measurements on it.

[Scottg]

..plus the Accuton C90-6-724 ..and the 12MU/4731.

8O Budget just choked on that. :P


If you are going to do that (need to remove VAT):

https://www.hifisound.de/do-it-yourself-products/gradient-axis-ax-ce04-ceramic.html

https://www.lautsprecherbau.de/Magazine/Lautsprecherbau-Magazin-2014/November-2014/_Chassistest-Gradient-AXC-04_8636,de,901181,10827

[Bear]

a 4-5” device is expected to be the best choice- the duelund configuration has it’s rewards, but makes high demands in bandwidth, especially for the midrange, which ideally should be controllable up to 10khz.

There are clear trade-offs between output level capability and bandwidth and freedom from energy storage at 5khz or above, looking at a variety of drivers.

With the cost savings on the tweeter and woofers already essentially “in place”, if necessary, more expensive options will be considered- even continuing with the c79. That, and the 724... But the current published data and changes from previous versions are of concern, and the data i already have for the 724 does not completely please me...

Although i would much prefer to avoid the out of phase resonance around 1500hz of the satori 5” midrange, it may be the lesser of evils overall, considering a range of candidates, and would otherwise be easy to work with for this application. And the price is not unreasonable. If only there were a textreme version of that driver...

There is a dark horse candidate for which i’ve finished a test enclosure yesterday, that should be measured next week- another logistics run is scheduled to the outer rim this friday, so no time for that on the weekend.

10f? Tc9fd?

[Bear]

On hand to test include the Visaton AL130, the Fountek FW135H, and the Satori MR13PNW, plus the Accuton C90-6-724, SB12MNRX25-4 and the 12MU/4731.

Only the latter two of that group seem to rise to the level scum and villainy consistent with my lord's stated color preference.

That being said, I'm most interested to see the MR13 tested in a fashion consistent with prior interrogations of rebel spies. The SB15NBAC would be another candidate whose performance approaches the desired specifications (but with energy storage issues beginning at 4kHz), but whose sensitivity might mate well with the DA25 in a Duelund configuration.

[Evil Twin]

10f? Tc9fd?

Those are on hand and under consideration, but output level capability may be an issue.

[Scottg]

http://feleppa.com.au/speakermeasmid.html

http://feleppa.com.au/speakermeaswoofer.html

Tim (who measured these) might argue for the Dynavox LY302F in this application, even though 2nd is a bit higher. Imperial-class higher harmonic distortion on a rebel's budget.

-still, paper though.

FR88 looks good too (and isn't paper).

[Evil Twin]

Candidate for bang for the credit winner.

The "Dark Horse" candidate was interesting... most interesting.






Fundamentals show no insurmountable issues...







Distortion at nominal drive has HD2 and HD3 tracking rather closely - and HD3 staying low in the critical areas.





Polar behavior is limited by the size of the diaphragm, but is quite satisfactory for the desired frequency range and levels...




All for $35...


A reminder of the midrange target characteristic...






One might say that it "looks" the part, with the protective grille- one which I verified before considering mounting and measuring that it is quite dead, better than many Accuton grilles.

[Scottg]

Nice, something rebel scum can finally afford!

[Evil Twin]

Nice, something rebel scum can finally afford!

Indeed... this is the plan.

Additional tests will be made, and somehow we will make a balance between performance and cost, but it is likely that even the Satori 5" midranges will go to a system which Steve has been pondering in his new ribbed cabinets... perhaps with the Anarchy woofers, perhaps with the Wavecor, as he already has a set of those. But those will require a larger cabinet profile to accommodate the larger baffle.

[5th element]

FW135H + DA25 would certainly make for a very value orientated proposition. So would the DA25 and ZA14.

[dwk]

Hadn't seen that Fountek - definitely promising. If it makes the cut, it would mean a fairly modest $220-ish/side for drivers. Assume $300/side for a typical DFAL xover, and it's still solidly in the "Budget (for HTGuide)" category.

[Scottg]

-well, you still have the proposition of cabinets - that can get expensive fast. ops:

[Evil Twin]

FW135H + DA25 would certainly make for a very value orientated proposition. So would the DA25 and ZA14.

I have the ZA14, and it is a fine driver IF the Wavecor Ardent crossover concept is used- but it’s upper range breakup makes it unsuitable for the Duelund approach.

So, most likely there will be at least two development efforts with this approach, with fundamentally different crossovers. The optimum performance for the credits version for each... and likely a less budget constrained version for the midrange also.

Additionally, a more comprehensive set of tests will be executed similar to the selection process for the original Evil three way design study.

I am in the outer rim today picking up stored components and tools in order to complete these evaluations.

[Evil Twin]

-well, you still have the proposition of cabinets - that can get expensive fast. ops:

That is quite true, and only somewhat avoidable. This in fact was an unavoidable concept with the very first Avalon products, where the cabinet construction and crossover was a much larger part of the total cost, but which had an outsized impact on the performance. This was also true for the speakers I built and gave to Avalon’s founder Charles Hansen long before he considered the speaker business, and which inspired his direction. Thick faceted front panels and massive rigidity did not originate at Avalon, but was developed further there with considerable esthetic grace.

[Evil Twin]

Think about the many manufacturers with different philosophies but united in one concept- very stiff, very “quiet” cabinets- Rockport, Wilson Audio, YG Acoustics, Magico. They all go about it by different methods, but the end result is remarkably consistent.

[Evil Twin]

Four more drivers are on the way for testing- two should arrive from Madisound today. Due to various existing commitments, testing may not be completed until early next month...

I have some interesting feelings about this...

[Supernova]

Triple 7" Anarchy's. Wow, that should be something. :evil:

Image not available

[CraigJ]

FW135H + DA25 would certainly make for a very value orientated proposition.

Add the 4 Anarchys and I’m in! Any suggestions when all of the drivers should be purchased??

[Evil Twin]

All of the drivers to evaluate have been purchased. A series of test cabinet constructions is nearly complete.

Patience, young Padawan...