B&W 604s3 Speaker Rewire - Well worth it!

[PewterTA]

Okay, so I've been working over the last couple weekends when I've had time to rewire my 604s3, LCR600, and 602s3 (got 4 of them).

This initially started out when I took my speakers over to the meet at WKHanna's house to compare. I noticed how much "warmer" these sounded over the Nat Ps and Line up Maxx. So I set out on a search to see what all I could do. My initial thinking (and still will eventually end up with doing) is to do a set of M8/12tas or Modula NeoD CCs.

However, in the mean time I thought that after looking at the B&W wiring, my spare Belden 5000UE would do a lot better than theirs. So I took it upon myself to do some work on the speakers. I used WBT-400 4% silver solder on all the connections (Binding posts, Crossover and Speakers).

All I can say is the difference it made in the speakers is absolutely huge!!! :E :E

It started off by doing the center channel and I never used to like it for music AT ALL. I always thought cymbals and voices sounded competely weak when compared to the 604s. I did this speaker first just for the heck of it due to the fact that I had damaged the tweeters dust cover and wanted to repair it... Well to my amazement, the change in sound was night and day. I played music in the Cinema setting on my 1098 and for the first time it sounded BETTER than my 604s. And it was a FAR better sound. So this lead to my 604s and 602s (one set of 602s to go).

Voices are definitely clearer and more distinguishable. I can't remember what song it was, but the group was harmonizing and I had never heard each voice separated from the others like they are now... Bass also has tightened up a lot, it's much quicker and has a punch to it that wasn't there before (sloppy or bloated would be there word to describe it before).

I can very easily tell that cymbals and instruments sound 100% more realistic, cleaner, clearer, and more lifelike. I honestly think they are very much closer to how Nat Ps sound. I definitely want to get my 602s over (604s hurt my back moving ha ha) to see how they compare to the Nat Ps now! :T

Hopefully this will cure my itch to build a new set of speakers until I have more time to actually work and plan them out. Plus it'll give me a chance to finalize 'what' I want.

Anyone curious in wanting to do something similar to their speakers, I HIGHLY recommend it!!!! I also looked at a pair of 700 series (703s) and they use the same wiring in those. I'm looking at opening up a pair of 803s if I can get my hands on them and am guessing the wiring is no different in those from the few pictures I've seen. So I'd definitely be interested in upgrading the wiring in those to see how much better they'd sound.

Here's some pictures of the process.


Here's the speakers with using an Allen key to get all 8 screws out of each driver.


Drivers are removed, the acoustic stuffing is gone, and there's the cheap wiring.


There's the Crossover hiding behind the foam that sits in front of it. This is located behind the "upper" LF bass driver.


Here you see the back of the biding posts from the back of the speaker.


They used Silly Putty (well it looks and feels like it) to seal the two chambers.


Stock connectors on the binding posts.


Here's the connector they use on the tweeter. I had to remove the metal connectors from the plastic (they are held in by two flaps that stick out and just need pushed in with a small flat head screwdriver) to reuse. The plastic connection on the tweeter itself would have to be cut in order to expose the pins to solder the wire to. I didn't feel like going that drastic. So I cut the old wire off these and used silver solder to connect them to the new wiring.


Crossover with stock wiring.


Stock wiring is the black and brown on the left and the new Belden wiring is on the right (black & white).


Here's a closeup of the differences in the wire. Stock B&W wire is on the left and Belden is on the right. Don't mind my dried out finger from stripping the wire and soldering and doing all the work from the day. :lol:


New wire soldered into place. Dark marks are from the desoldering braid that I used to remove the old solder. I wiped off the crossover so the marks aren't there before I put them back.


Crossover with all the new wiring in place.


Crosover in place and proper wires coming out to go to the drivers.


Wires coming through from the bass cabinet into the midrange/high section with the putty around the wires completely sealing the sections.


All the drivers are sitting on the floor. Aren't they pretty!

[Mig17]

I re-wire my Dynaudio 52 audience with some USA well known cables with a step up result

[RobP]

That wire looks the same as what is in my N803's, its refreshing to finally see someone doing some tweaking on the B&W's. :T , Maybe I can order some silver wire from Doug and see what effect it has on mine.

[joetama]

There was a thread a while back about modding some 703 and HTM-7.

I haven't been brave enough to try either. But, I am to the point where I am considering with the HTM-7.

But, good job, glad you got an improvement out of it!

[george_k]

Tempted to rewire my 703's but I'm too worried about stripping the wooden parts that mate with the screws.

[joetama]

I've pretty much taking my entire 703 apart just to see how it was made. I would say it would be pretty hard to strip out any screws.

[Briz vegas]

Why skimp on the wire if for a few dollars you can make a speaker sound so much better? Some might argue that it could upset the performance heirarchy as 600s might sound as good as 700s - in that case just do it to all models I say.

I would love to hear what B&W have to say about this- ie why they went with the stock wiring.

Regarding the outcome, I would be careful however as initial impressions can be deceptive. Maybe a long term comparison between the modded 602 and the ones that have not been done yet.

There was a video of some guy stripping Nordost Valhalla down to rewire some speakers - crazy at those prices just in case you stuffed up. The guy seemed a little nuts.

[PewterTA]

I would agree Briz, that's why I haven't touched my last set of 602s...but so far multiple people have commented on the quality differences between the two sets (even when I would A/B them up without anyone knowing what I had done). Everyone picked out the sound difference in the modded speakers.

From the few times I've heard the 700 series, I would say this is very very very close to the sound of them.

It's almost like a cloth that was muffling them has been taken off. That's the best way to describe it.

For anyone wanting to try this, the B&W stuff is made extremely well, don't worry about stripping any screws. Just don't over tighten anything. Just make it snug and there should be no problems.

[dknightd]

I wonder how much of the change you heard was due to changing wire, and how much was due to freshening up the the connections.

[wettou]

Whoa, I would not dare do this on Nautilus 802D at that price I hope that they used decent wires!!!

I am not that electronically inclined!

[RebelMan]

I wonder how much of the change you heard was due to changing wire, and how much was due to freshening up the the connections.

I was thinking the same thing.

[PewterTA]

I agree, that was my first thought, the connections just needed a little bit of help/cleaned up. Initially, I used Deoxit gold on all the connections that weren't soldered and that was about 3 or 4 months ago. That made a noticable improvement in the sound compared to how they were originally.

Now that I soldered everything together (except the pin to connect to the tweeter, which got more DeOxit Gold on it) it's a noticeable improvement again. I'd say this definitely bigger than it was with just the DeOxit Gold on the connections (inside and outside of the speaker and on all cabling in the system).

I admit that the cheap connectors they use definitely didn't help the sound quality at all. :lol:

I'm betting the silver soldered connections are really more what has changed the sound than the actual wire. Though 16ga wire vs 12ga is going to have somewhat of a difference to it... but I'd still equate the difference to being soldered directly to the speakers and C/O and Binding posts then the connections they used.

I have the service manual for the 600, 700, and 800 series, just a shame I don't actually have them them to check out what's really inside and see... I'd probably upgrade them as well... :B

Next step is my friends 703s that he has, he wants to do it since he looked and the wiring & connections are almost identical to the ones in my 604s. I'll report on that when we get to doing it (next week or two).

[PewterTA]

Next thing I will try to see if the wires make any difference is solder the stock wires and see what kind of difference it makes on my last set of 602s compared to the 'modded' ones. That should give me a good idea of what kind of difference the wiring makes.

[joetama]

In for seeing the 703 Mods.

[dan87951]

I would have to agree I think most of what you are hearing is from cleaning up the connections! Audioholics has a good primer on speaker wire and the technology and theories behind it. I don't see how changing the speaker wire to a smaller strand count could improve the sound so much. There are alot of theories on which is better (more strands or less) and its discussed on the website as well. I could see a improvement in sound if you went with a different gauge wire and the length was over 50 feet but this is not the case. However looks like a nice clean job!

[Briz vegas]

How about a comment from our sponsor.

Should we all be replacing our speakers internal wiring with Cat tails ?

Don't think I could bring myself to take a screwdriver to my speakers, let alone a soldering iron.

No, don't touches my precious-es............yeah that's my best smeagle(?). I only saw LOTR once...........maybe twice at most.

[joetama]

Sure it was only twice.


Speakers aren't mythic creations made of fairy dust and dwarf beards.

They are machines. Just like an inclined plane or the lever.

[george_k]

I agree, it would be nice to get a B&W engineer to chime in on why they do what they do when it comes to speaker wiring.

[dknightd]

Next thing I will try to see if the wires make any difference is solder the stock wires and see what kind of difference it makes on my last set of 602s compared to the 'modded' ones. That should give me a good idea of what kind of difference the wiring makes.

I'll be curious to read about this experiment

[PewterTA]

Dknight, I'll be doing it this weekend (hopefully). I'll report back on my findings.

Dan87951, I think it would be more do to the 12Ga wire over the 16Ga stock wiring is where a difference could come into play (just concerning the wire). I don't think there's a difference on strand count. However, I do know the wire I used (Belden) is not real flexible so it's a decent quality copper. The stock wire is decently limp and flexes with ease... making me think it's not quite as good wire.

I would love to have B&W say why they chose the method they did with the wiring/plugs. Though I can understand with this (600 series) being there "base" series, it's easy and cost effective.

[Guy]

Whoa, I would not dare do this on Nautilus 802D at that price I hope that they used decent wires!!!

I am not that electronically inclined!

I removed one of the bass drivers to have a look inside my 802Ds and I was disapointed to see that the wiring and connections were of poor quality.

[beden1]

I removed one of the bass drivers to have a look inside my 802Ds and I was disapointed to see that the wiring and connections were of poor quality.

I'm sure that whatever wires and connectors B&W uses are what is best suited for the intended purpose. I highly doubt B&W would use inferior wire and connectors in any of their speakers, let alone the 802Ds.

You're talking cents wise difference, so why would they risk using the wire and connectors they use, unless it's all that is needed for such short runs? For pennies in cost, don't you think they would use a heavier gauge of wire and different connectors if it made any difference whatsoever? :tts:

[Guy]

I'm sure that whatever wires and connectors B&W uses are what is best suited for the intended purpose. I highly doubt B&W would use inferior wire and connectors in any of their speakers, let alone the 802Ds.

You're talking cents wise difference, so why would they risk using the wire and connectors they use, unless it's all that is needed for such short runs? For pennies in cost, don't you think they would use a heavier gauge of wire and different connectors if it made any difference whatsoever? :tts:

You have a point however it seems that PewterTA upgraded the wire in his speaker which made a notible difference so obviously the wire used by B&W for that speaker was clearly not the best for that speaker. When you talk about the price you pay for an 802D you would expect to find that they use higher grade wire/ connectors as they clearly make a big difference to the sound quality.

[beden1]

You have a point however it seems that PewterTA upgraded the wire in his speaker which made a notible difference so obviously the wire used by B&W for that speaker was clearly not the best for that speaker. When you talk about the price you pay for an 802D you would expect to find that they use higher grade wire/ connectors as they clearly make a big difference to the sound quality.

But, that is the question . . . does it "clearly" make any difference to the sound quality? Again, it would make no sense whatsoever for B&W to short cut the miniscule expense of the wires/connectors they use, if by simply using different wires/connectors, the output of their speakers would produce a better sound.

I think this is a purely subjective "ears of the beholder" phenomenon.

[RebelMan]

I think this is a purely subjective "ears of the beholder" phenomenon.

For the most part it is. :W

[joetama]

For the most part it is. :W

If it works then it does.


Even if it is in the ears of the beholder.


But yea, I don't really see a technical reason why the sound would be better.

[Antus]

although many people think "why would b&w cut corners in such an expensive speakers?" here is why.

for most products on the market, the actual cost of a product is usually only between 1/6 to 1/3 of the suggesting retail price. take a $2000 speaker as an example, the cost of making the speaker is usually between only $300 to $600.

well, people will think.... wow, that's a big rip off!, they must make tons of profit. the answer is yes and no. why?

the MSRP has to cover 1. dealer profit (says 35%) 2. shipping and storage (10%) 3. marketing and advertising cost (usually 10-20%) 4. R&D cost (5%) 5. and other cost like damages, warranty, etc.

so yes, every pennies counts in manufacturing. take the 6 series for example, the target cost will be like $200 (for a $1000 speaker). as a result, even a $10 cable will be too expensive to use in those speakers.

does cables make a difference? i think it does. B&W use 9GA cable on their top of the line 800D and 800 Signature, 12ga for the rest of 800 series. i think 805 use 14ga. if it doesn't make a difference, why bother?

same as crossover components. 800D use two silver/gold cap. the rest of the series use regular cap. how much is silver/gold cap? maybe like $200 to $300 each. but considering the pricing model above, it is just too expensive to use on lower end model, even the 802D.

[RebelMan]

does cables make a difference? i think it does. B&W use 9GA cable on their top of the line 800D and 800 Signature, 12ga for the rest of 800 series. i think 805 use 14ga. if it doesn't make a difference, why bother?

It makes a difference to current flow (and safety) not audibility. If the potential (voltage) in closed circuit between the source and the drain is higher than the capacity for the wire to carry current flow then the wire could fry but you'd never know it audibly until after the damage was done. Copper is an excellent conductor of electricity and when correctly sized to the task assigned it will perform well.

In circumstances were the material becomes oxidized over time and/or corrodes from environmental conditions performance could be (slightly) hindered but this generally only occurs in rare cases where the workmanship that went into bonding the wire with the contact points was poorly executed. B&W does not deliberately skimp on the quality of their wiring just to save a buck, they could just as easily pass that cost on to the consumer. No, what's really going on here is the truth about the significance (fancy) cables play on sound quality. Surprise!

P.S. One shouldn't look so surprised by the makeup inside their amplifier either.

[Antus]

It makes a difference to current flow (and safety) not audibility. If the potential (voltage) in closed circuit between the source and the drain is higher than the capacity for the wire to carry current flow then the wire could fry but you'd never know it audibly until after the damage was done. Copper is an excellent conductor of electricity and when correctly sized to the task assigned it will perform well.

In circumstances were the material becomes oxidized over time and/or corrodes from environmental conditions performance could be (slightly) hindered but this generally only occurs in rare cases where the workmanship that went into bonding the wire with the contact points was poorly executed. B&W does not deliberately skimp on the quality of their wiring just to save a buck, they could just as easily pass that cost on to the consumer. No, what's really going on here is the truth about the significance (fancy) cables play on sound quality. Surprise!

P.S. One shouldn't look so surprised by the makeup inside their amplifier either.

my point was not saying B&W tried to save a buck or 2 by skimping on quality. in fact, b&w is one of the very honest prised speaker company in today's high end world. That's the reason they are the biggest speaker company in the world and keep growing. What i wanna say is some higher quality component are just too expensive for the target price. (even when the higher quality parts cost only few dollars more) Speaker companies basically need to build the best sound for certain price. From the original post's picture, i am actually quite impressed that b&w use all air core inductor on the 6 series. i am sure those air core inductor will cost more than speaker cable there. So b&w decided to put money on those inductors which they believe will contribute more to the overall sound quality.

[joetama]

I have to say that I agree with what Antus is saying.

Usually companies make a price point where they want to be in the market and then try to keep the cost of the speaker to a percentage of that.

That doesn't mean that they are going to skimp on wire or anything else. That means that they can't afford to put the BEST wire in it. They are going to have to rank the parts by importance and say, we will spend the most on the driver, then the box, then the crossover, then the terminals, then the wire. Since wire is the lowest on the ranking it gets the least amount of attention. They probably have a supplier where they get all their wire in bulk for a very cheap price anyway.

Even a great company like B&W will have a corporate pencil pusher somewhere. That is why they have been so successful. Making the best out of the money that we give them.

[PewterTA]

lol... you guys are going nuts over this... ha ha

I think we need to get back down to reality here...

I'm still under the impression that SOLDERING the connection is much better than using a cheaper Crimp styled banana plug to connect to the drivers.

Here's the REASON why they did that... serviceability. If you have to unsolder connections from the drivers for a repair...that just increased the time of the repair and cost to resolder. It's a WISE move by B&W. Almost all manufacturers do this.

Now I am finishing up the soldering on the other set of 602s to compare. I'm betting the different between the full wired set and this set will be slight. I'm not expecting HUGE differences...so if I get them, I'll be the first to post here, WTF?!?! ha ha.

We finished up this week re-wiring the 703s and in my opinion it made a change for the better. The four other people that have listened to them (no serious comparing done as we don't have another set) have all agreed that the sound has changed and for what we would conclude is an improvement. Of the four, two of them were not there for the change and did were not told. They both freely offered the comment that something was different (and yes, they were both female) with the sound and they liked it better. Both thought we had bought something new and put in my friends system.

So I think this is an unscientific way of saying there can be gain from doing these types of things. I view it very similar to working on an automobile, you can always change stuff for the better and you aren't giving the BEST a car can perform right from the factory.

Now should everyone do this to their speakers (even in the 800 series)... no. I took a lot of time and did make a few marks/scratches on my speakers that while not really noticeable, I notice them. But for the sound difference I've gotten, I'd do it again in a heart beat (so would my friend). Then again, neither one of us spent 12K+ on our speakers.

I'd maybe consider not doing those if I had them...though the "tweaker" in me might...

I do plan on taking the 602s over to Wkhanna's place to do a full blind listen to see what he thinks of them. Especially since he's heard the 604s as basically stock and has an idea what the sound is quality is like and see's if he likes them better or worse. Then I'll reveal which set is which at the end of it all.

[RebelMan]

It's not that complicated. B&W is not going to compromise sound quality by choosing inferior materials for their wiring. Their choice has very little to do with costs but it has a lot to do with functionality. When B&W is building their speakers for specific price points, which I agree that they do, their considerations for parts are spent WHERE IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE in performance. I know it's a tough concept for people to grasp because of the marketing brainwashing that goes on but wiring in general has very little impact on sound quality. THAT's why.

[dknightd]

It is cheaper and easier to use crimp connectors, and matching terminal connections.
They are cheaper and faster to install. They will work fine for many years. By the
time they start getting contaminated enough to effect the sound the warentee
has expired, and the owner is probably ready for an upgrade (all companies
want us to upgrade, as often as possible). IMO the cost savings is not in the
materials cost (12cents for wire is about the same as 10cents) - it is the cost of paying the people who assemble these things.
In two seconds they can slide a connector onto a speaker, soldering it might
take 20 seconds - Multiplied by many speakers that cost starts to add up, and since you cannot hear the difference until the speaker is old why bother. . .
Who knows, maybe they do it on purpose to increase the desire to upgrade (to nice new speakers with fresh connections). . .
Edit: or maybe B&W uses high quality crimped on connections and terminals that just need to be freshened up every few years or so.

[beden1]

While your thoughts expressed about a streamlined manufacturing process may be true for large high volume assembly plants, I doubt it is a reasoning for B&W. I doubt B&W can be classified as a high volume assembler. I mean, how many units do you think they sell in a year? I think you'd be surprised that their unit numbers are relatively small in the scheme of things.

[joetama]

Pictures of the 703 install?

[bigburner]

Speakers aren't mythic creations made of fairy dust and dwarf beards.

Quite right.

Fairy dust and dwarf beards are only used in high end amps and preamps.

[joetama]

Most defiantly.

[PewterTA]

I'm waiting for my friend's pictures to be sent to me on his 703s. It's basically identical to my 604s in terms of removing drivers. Midrange ring comes off by a little bit of prying/turning the outer ring to expose the screws to remove the driver.

I think wiring does effect the sound to a certain degree. It's like buying radio-shack cheap copper wiring and then wiring with good Belden wire. Not saying that B&Ws wiring is cheap mind you. That's just how I look at it in those terms.

Also with the reference to freshening up the connections... That's what I had done BEFORE I soldered the connections. I used deoxit gold on all the connections and that DID make a difference over the stock, so freshening up the connections helps...definitely. But soldering makes a difference above and beyond just freshening (taking the crimp off and putting back on).

The only reason I started this thread was not to bash B&W, but to get people aware that they can 'change' their sound and to not be so afraid to open things up and experiment. Granted my speakers aren't that high priced compared to some here, but I have yet to see too many people have the balls to do it.

So far I've gotten a bunch of PMs of people following my lead with the 600 series and all have commented on a great difference in sound. All for the positive. So that makes me feel good that I'm not trying to steer anyone in a negative direction.

So whether you think I'm full of it or not... until you try it for yourself, I don't see how anyone can comment negatively.

[esaleris]

Has anyone looked at doing this to the CM series? Would it be any different?

[dan87951]

Don't let people bother you over it! its your ears if you think it made a difference than it did.

I'am curious how the blind testing went with the 602's? 602's are one of my favorite speakers B&W ever made!

[joetama]

Pewter tell your friend to hurry up.

I want to see the pictures of the 703 mod.

[PewterTA]

I didn't get a chance to take over the 602s to Wkhanna's place this weekend (went over, but didn't transport them). Hopefully we'll get some time to have him listen and see what he thinks/opinions.

So far everyone's been extremely positive with the change. Even with a few women noticing the change! :T

Pictures of the 703s will come, though I can't say how soon. It's all up to him when he gets time to send them over to me (or post them up on line and I can link them).

[PewterTA]

Well bad news, my friend's camera card lost all of his pictures (4GB completely full, gone). I feel bad that he's lost some pictures of his kid and stuff that can not ever be replaced...

I'm going to ask him if he minds us taking his 703s apart sometime soon and one of us will snap some pictures, but I'm not sure when that will be.

On another side note... B&W uses the same cabling in their 800 series line as in the 700 and 600.


However, unlike the 600 and 700 series, they actually solder the connections to the terminals. Not sure how they are connected to the drivers, but I'm guessing it's probably soldered...

[joetama]

What part is that connected to the crossover that is attached to the base?

3 black things attached to the dark grey cables?

Some sort of fuse protection?

[PewterTA]

I believe those are power resistors... Not exactly positive though until I'd look at the service manual.

I just checked and the drivers are all coupled with simple crimp connections to all the drivers in the 800 series (albeit they are gold plated!!! wooo hooo ha ha). Picture is not mine btw.