Re: Bob Cordell on power amplifier requirements

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  • tktran
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2005
    • 660

    Re: Bob Cordell on power amplifier requirements

    Out of curiosity, I just ran a few cuts from the Flying Cowboys album through Wavelab, and figured out why it probably causes your average amplifier to clip very regularly, as Bob Cordell showed at last year's RMAF Audio workshops.

    Ghetto of my Mind, has average level of around -28 to -30dB dBFS, and with the peaks regularly hitting -2dBFS, that's an effective dynamic range of 26-28dB!

    When listening at my favourite listening position, because the average volume of the track is so low (ie. 28dB below my CD player's full scale output), I will naturally crank up the volume.

    Say I listen at an SPL of 80dB in my favourite listening chair, the peaks are reach 80+28=108dB. Now this happens every bar, (no) thanks to the snare drum.

    With average sensitivity speakers (86dB/W), it's no wonder I'll need a 200+wpc amplifier to hit the target of 108dB, without regularly clipping my amplifier and sending distortion sky high. (For my calculations I assume near-wall speaker placement ie.2-4ft, 2 speakers (stereo), seated 8ft away, average listening level 80dB)

    It makes a good case to buy a 200+Wpc big-iron amplifier, but is not nearly a representative sample of how most CDs are mastered.

    On the same CD, track 7- "Flying Cowobys" the average level is -24dBFS, and the maximum level is a lowly -6dBFS. I wonder who mastered this album, and whether these wild level fluctuations are intentional, or just a result of poor (IMHO) level settings.

    I find myself turning the volume up/down too often with this album, and the sudden peaks are just annoying (in a laid back/relaxing song, Rickie Lee will often belt out some loud bars eg. track 9, 10)

    Anyway, I just thought this might be of some interest to some people.

    Hitting realistic or live-level SPLs has always been an interest to me, and I've never taken an RTA or SPL meter into a concert or club, but I do think that peaks of 110dB are not out of the question. For this, I need either high sensitivity speakers, or high power amplifiers (or both).

    I see a nice 200wpc big-iron amplifier in my future... :-)
  • Feyz
    Member
    • Mar 2005
    • 99

    #2
    It makes a good case to buy a 200+Wpc big-iron amplifier
    Or an active x-over with multible amplifiers. Note that this is not actually power requirement, it is voltage swing requirement. When highs and lows are filtered, each its own may not need that much voltage swing, but their some will. IIRC there was an article on this at Elliot sounds website. For this reason my ultimate speaker would be an active one.

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    • tktran
      Senior Member
      • Jan 2005
      • 660

      #3
      Hi Feyz,

      Yes I recall reading that article by Rod Elliot. At the time I didn't follow all the math, but do recall that he made the case for a bi-amped (low to mid+high crossover system), saying that there are many advantages. One of them was "effectively up to twice the 'real' power of the amplifier themselves."

      My current work-in-progress sytem is bi-amped.

      In all levels of professional audio (studio, sound reinforcement etc) all the systems I've seen/used is at least biamped.

      regards,
      Thanh.

      Comment

      • JonMarsh
        Mad Max Moderator
        • Aug 2000
        • 15282

        #4
        Another solution is more efficient speakers.... but this is not so easy a path, either.

        My workshorse amplifiers at home are Aragon 8008BB's, which clip at about 270W/ch at 8 ohms, about 450W/ch at 4 ohms, and Aaragon Palladiums, which are basically monoblocks based on beefed up bridged 8008's. (~600W+ at 8 ohms, 800W + at 4 ohms) Of course, some care with program material choices and playback levels is also a good idea. :W
        the AudioWorx
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        In Development...
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        Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
        Just ask Mr. Ohm....

        Comment

        • cjd
          Ultra Senior Member
          • Dec 2004
          • 5568

          #5
          Go find a good classical recording. 30dB is nothing.
          diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

          Comment

          • digital desire
            Senior Member
            • Dec 2006
            • 248

            #6
            Odd in this day and age to even find a recording with that much dynamic range, with all the "hot" recording going on out there.
            It may be a problem, but it would be one I would like to deal with...
            Back in the day I had a dbx expander/ compressor. That would deal with it!
            Peter
            Syracuse, N.Y.

            Comment

            • ThomasW
              Moderator Emeritus
              • Aug 2000
              • 10934

              #7
              Why it doesn't matter.....slightly OT but interesting none the less. From Steve Hoffman (yes THE Steve Hoffman) This is a example of modern recording techinques and what they're doing to the music....

              Spring 2016 - check out my updated course, Foundations of Digital Audio, at http://www.lynda.com/Acoustics-tutorials/Foundations-Digital-Audio/383529-2.htmlH...

              IB subwoofer FAQ page


              "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

              Comment

              • Jim Holtz
                Ultra Senior Member
                • Mar 2005
                • 3223

                #8
                Originally posted by ThomasW
                Why it doesn't matter.....slightly OT but interesting none the less. From Steve Hoffman (yes THE Steve Hoffman) This is a example of modern recording techinques and what they're doing to the music....

                http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
                That was really good! :T Thanks for the link Thomas. It really brings things into perspective.

                Jim

                Comment

                • digital desire
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2006
                  • 248

                  #9
                  ^^^+1!
                  Ipod mentality is killing the music!
                  Peter
                  Syracuse, N.Y.

                  Comment

                  • Kal Rubinson
                    Super Senior Member
                    • Mar 2006
                    • 2109

                    #10
                    Originally posted by tktran
                    Yes I recall reading that article by Rod Elliot. At the time I didn't follow all the math, but do recall that he made the case for a bi-amped (low to mid+high crossover system), saying that there are many advantages. One of them was "effectively up to twice the 'real' power of the amplifier themselves."
                    Do you have a reference or URL for this?

                    Kal
                    Kal Rubinson
                    _______________________________
                    "Music in the Round"
                    Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                    http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                    Comment

                    • Alaric
                      Ultra Senior Member
                      • Jan 2006
                      • 4143

                      #11
                      Originally posted by digital desire
                      Odd in this day and age to even find a recording with that much dynamic range, with all the "hot" recording going on out there.
                      It may be a problem, but it would be one I would like to deal with...
                      Back in the day I had a dbx expander/ compressor. That would deal with it!
                      I also used a dbx IIIbx in what must have been that same day! Found it useful transferring vinyl recordings to tape. Made for some very good tapes.
                      Lee

                      Marantz PM7200-RIP
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                      Schiit Modi 3
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                      Paradigm Studio 60 v.3

                      Comment

                      • ThomasW
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 10934

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Kal Rubinson
                        Do you have a reference or URL for this?
                        Kal

                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                        Comment

                        • jkrutke
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2005
                          • 590

                          #13
                          Originally posted by tktran
                          It makes a good case to buy a 200+Wpc big-iron amplifier, but is not nearly a representative sample of how most CDs are mastered.
                          15 years ago I had a Proton amp with a somewhat average power rating but the ability to hold +7dB peaks for 200ms. What that meant was that it sounded like a monster amp. Put out something like 600 watts into 4 ohms if I recall.

                          Current NAD products still have a bloodline that traces back to that Proton amp, or their old "Power Envelope" products. I've had my NAD C370 for a lot of years now and I never feel the need to upgrade. Down with wuss amps!


                          Originally posted by digital desire
                          Odd in this day and age to even find a recording with that much dynamic range, with all the "hot" recording going on out there.
                          It may be a problem, but it would be one I would like to deal with...
                          Back in the day I had a dbx expander/ compressor. That would deal with it!

                          Yup. I'm reminded of the old Rush Vapor Trails article, now only available in Google's cache. I remembered hearing that CD and thinking, yuck this is horrible. Which was too bad, because it was otherwise pretty good content.

                          I used to have one of those Dbx compressors also.
                          Zaph|Audio

                          Comment

                          • tktran
                            Senior Member
                            • Jan 2005
                            • 660

                            #14
                            Go find a good classical recording. 30dB is nothing.
                            :T
                            Well, all CDs have a dynamic range of ~96dB.

                            The thing I'm trying to point out with "Ghetto of my mind" is that the effective dynamic range is ~28dB in almost every bar, because the snare drum is 28dB louder than the rest. So if the amplifier is going to clip, it'll be doing it periodically, in every bar. But since it is the snare drum with a short delay, an amplifier that can deliver peaks in transients, like the one John had quoted, would probably fare well.

                            Classical music has very wide dynamic range, and when the crescendos come thundering down, they typically last for many bars. I'd probably want an amplifier with higher sustained power. Types that can deliver instantaneous peaks for eg. 200ms won't cut it.

                            I don't have access to Wavelab are work, but when I get a chance I'll run a few more recordings through and see what I get...

                            Comment

                            • Kal Rubinson
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Mar 2006
                              • 2109

                              #15
                              Originally posted by ThomasW
                              Thanks. Pretty reasonable stuff. However, I quote these two statements:
                              1. ""Do I need to disconnect the passive crossover in my speakers?"
                              The answer is ... Yes, otherwise you are not really biamping at all."

                              2. "Passive biamping (where two amplifiers are used in a bi-wiring connection) is, IMHO, a waste of money. Although there may be some moderate sonic benefits, they are not worth the expense of the extra amplifier."

                              Many audiophiles regard the latter as useful biamping, unfortunately.

                              Kal
                              Kal Rubinson
                              _______________________________
                              "Music in the Round"
                              Senior Contributing Editor, Stereophile
                              http://forum.stereophile.com/category/music-round

                              Comment

                              • JonP
                                Senior Member
                                • Apr 2006
                                • 690

                                #16
                                I wish I could remember names and find it again... Some years back there was a site talking about this problem in the music industry, and trying to educate people and influence some consumer kickback against it.

                                It had some good writeups on the topic, analyzing music types, examining particular albums, etc.. and as I recall, a database of albums pointing out who's "bad" and who's "good". Wonder if it's still out there....

                                Comment

                                • WillyD
                                  Senior Member
                                  • Feb 2006
                                  • 675

                                  #17
                                  Originally posted by ThomasW
                                  Why it doesn't matter.....slightly OT but interesting none the less. From Steve Hoffman (yes THE Steve Hoffman) This is a example of modern recording techinques and what they're doing to the music....

                                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Gmex_4hreQ
                                  I've read about this but your link is a great example of it.

                                  This must explain why the first Rage Against the Machine album sounds so good; it was released in late 1992.

                                  Comment

                                  • PMazz
                                    Senior Member
                                    • May 2001
                                    • 861

                                    #18
                                    Dynamic compression....just say no!

                                    You can play with tracks yourself and see just how badly most things in popular music are recorded lately. Just rip a track to your HD and open it up with just about any wave editor. You'll be surprised how bad it's gotten.

                                    Pete
                                    Birth of a Media Center

                                    Comment

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