Three Way Evil Design Study

[JonMarsh]

To adjust high frequency level based on room and program material, and source electronics quality. If you use an average DAC under $2K and not matching, say, the performance of an NAD M51, and if you use an average solid state Amp, something that doesn't run Class A at low to moderate power levels, or zero feedback like Ayre Acoustics, you'll likely want the level reduced. For mine, the switch will be omitted, but after listening to a variety of program sources and program material, I think the switch should be an option for most, especially if you're not using a Diamond or Be tweeter, but something more conventional in a hard dome like the Transducer Labs ceramic domes or a similar Accuton.

[JonMarsh]

Having a very busy week at the customer site, looks like I'll be working this weekend, and likely thanksgiving week vacation will not be taken, unfortunately- may be a while before I can get back to working on this- possibly Christmas break. I'm told by boss I'll get comp time for working on a legal holiday, but that's not really adequate compensation, IMO.

[ColoradoTom]

Having a very busy week at the customer site, looks like I'll be working this weekend, and likely thanksgiving week vacation will not be taken, unfortunately- may be a while before I can get back to working on this- possibly Christmas break. I'm told by boss I'll get comp time for working on a legal holiday, but that's not really adequate compensation, IMO.

I'm glad you were able to take that trip this summer or you'd be REALLY fried!!!!8O

Tom

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, no kidding! As it is, it's making me turn to relief in my other addictions, such as G.A.S. .... Gear Acquisition Syndrome.

Bought a new guitar this morning, on eBay....




At least, it's pretty enough to hang on the wall or use as a photo background on my Mac, even if I don't have time to play it for a while...

[bigg]

There was an earlier post with a crossover using the SS 6640 Be tweeter and the Accuton C90 midrange. The woofer was not identified. Has a real crossover been designed using the SS 6640 tweeter in the Isiris?

[bigg]

I think it would be cool to build one using the SS 6640 tweeter, the Accuton C90 midrange and the Wavecor SW310 Jon mentioned above. With a Dueland crossover. And speaking of Dueland, why not Dueland resistors and capacitors on the tweeter/midrange?

[Face]

I wouldn't bother with Duelund caps in a loudspeaker unless you're talking about the black or cast series. Their resistors are quite good, but their cast series are better too. Regardless, the Claritycap MR comes very close for much less money.

[bigg]

I wouldn't bother with Duelund caps in a loudspeaker unless you're talking about the black or cast series. Their resistors are quite good, but their cast series are better too. Regardless, the Claritycap MR comes very close for much less money.

What about the Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold /Oil caps. I've never used the Clarity Cap MRs. I have used the Clarity Cap SA. I was not particularly impressed. they just seemed kind of ho-hum to me.

[Face]

Not a fan of Mundorf caps, I tried the S/O and thought they sounded like a slightly more refined Solen. I agree that CC SA's aren't anything special. The ESA is an improved version of the SA, which is good if you need a little warmth or large values. The MR is definitely worth a try, IMO.

[bigg]

I like the Mundorf caps. Much better than the Solen or the Clarity Caps. But then I guess all of our ears are a little different. My newest favorite lower/mid price cap is the Mundorf EVO Silver and aluminum.

[bigg]

Not a fan of Mundorf caps, I tried the S/O and thought they sounded like a slightly more refined Solen. I agree that CC SA's aren't anything special. The ESA is an improved version of the SA, which is good if you need a little warmth or large values. The MR is definitely worth a try, IMO.

Well if I were building these with the diamond tweeter I might go with the Dueland cast. But since I wouldn't be able to go any higher than the 6640 I would probably give the Clarity Cap MR a try. Even though they aren't really cheap either.

[JonMarsh]

Yes- I highly recommend the Clarity MR, as regards cost performance tradeoffs. I'd say there are usually other areas in one's system you could get more performance improvement by spending the money there- not that I don't like the Duelund part. But they ARE very DEAR in price! The least expensive caps I can recommend for the tweeter are the Jantzen Z-Superior; like the MR Clarity, they go to great lengths to control physical self resonance. (they are potted in an aluminum cylinder, the outer part of the case- I also use them in parallel in the midrange crossover).

[bigg]

I have considered using the Jantzen Z Superior caps before but i never got around to it. So maybe this time I will try them with the 6640s.

[Hank]

Do enjoy your Acoustats... We'll still let you hang out on Mission Possible DIY...

Thank you, Endentured One :T My Odyssey Stratos Plus amp is finally in my possession. Bought from a friend of Klaus on eBay early October. Klaus installed a new main board at about half price, tuned it, biased it for my house line voltage (124V), and told me: "And, you've got a new 20-year warranty"! Klaus sets the Customer Service bar.
Regarding hanging out here...I have 25 Peerless 830875's that I bought 4-5 years ago. That's the excellent mid woof that Thomas said has "no sound of its own". Every so often, I hear them whispering to me from the garage: "Line array Hank, some day line array" http://www.parts-express.com/peerles...ofer--264-1092

[JonMarsh]

Thank you, Endentured One :T My Odyssey Stratos Plus amp is finally in my possession. Bought from a friend of Klaus on eBay early October. Klaus installed a new main board at about half price, tuned it, biased it for my house line voltage (124V), and told me: "And, you've got a new 20-year warranty"! Klaus sets the Customer Service bar.
Regarding hanging out here...I have 25 Peerless 830875's that I bought 4-5 years ago. That's the excellent mid woof that Thomas said has "no sound of its own". Every so often, I hear them whispering to me from the garage: "Line array Hank, some day line array" http://www.parts-express.com/peerles...ofer--264-1092

So you too, feel the pull of the dark side... I have my own issues with storage unit components that seem enchanted in their hold on me... Fountek ribbons, RD50 drivers, and dipole 12" woofers... right now, I just don't know where I'd put such a system at my GF's after I move in, as the family room is the Isiris, and it looks like the music/living room will have the Wavecor Ardent's for monitors in the recording and playback system. And now one can purchase the Anarchy woofers, again.... and these would fill the mid woofer line array ticket fairly well.... I wonder if I can put wheels under the Isiris and move them in and out as needed?

I don't want to jinx things, but from emails I've seen today, it looks like the company wide shutdown at my indentured employer for next week in Cupertino may hold for our team also, to the extent that I won't have to go into the lab on my daily cycle. So with luck there will be some progress on the new midrange crossover builds and testing next week. I've got to order a few more resistors this AM from Madisound.

It's been a frustrating week on the playing side, as an eBay vendor backed out of a deal on a special triple pickup Les Paul after I won, claiming newly discovered problems with the guitar not revealed in the ad. He says he'll make it available to me later if I want to buy it. Being a suspicious sort, I do wonder if he found another purchaser at a higher price off line.

But the Jack Casady bass I won the bidding on did ship yesterday!

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Well, what the heck- bring on the holidays! Boy, do I need them this year!

[ColoradoTom]

But the Jack Casady bass I won the bidding on did ship yesterday!

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Well, what the heck- bring on the holidays! Boy, do I need them this year!

Well, I've been able to avoid GAS..... but I've recently had serious RAS (Reel Acquisition Syndrome) and picked up a reconditioned Tascam 42B/NB deck. I'll be multi-tracking to an Alesis HD24 and then down mixing to the Tascam to get that wonderful 80's analog sound.

Re-living my misspent youth I guess but there is just something about a reel-to-reel that is so sexy (in an audiophile way)!

Tom

[JonMarsh]

That's sharp, Tom! But you know, RAS is just a subset of GAS! :W Now if only I could find a cool deal on a mint Otari MX5050 half track... in good working condition, of course! That would be difficult to find- lots of units suitable only for parts.


I figure I'm just going to have to get my with setting up my Metric Halo as the core of an eight channel recording system, instead of using it as a two channel Hi Fi DAC like I have...


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Good think I like Macs, but I suspect the learning curve will still be significant.

They do have some nice techniques to modify the sound for those who like a more vintage approach:



And the splash page today shows they're updated for Mavericks, now, which is good- I wish some of the printer guys were all finished with that update, as I'm having to keep a computer back on Mountain Lion in order to be able to print to my Epson 3880 printer- updated driver coming soon.

But what Mac setup to put it on? This is a question- I have a 21" late model iMac, that might be OK, but I was thinking about giving that to my daughter. Well, I suppose it would help justify buying one of the new Pro's, as I gave mine to my daughter's cousin up in Sacramento.


I got to mess around with one of these that was on a demo at the internal beer bash held Friday afternoon a couple of weeks ago. It's still a bit surreal to be working there, even just as a vendor. It was the first time I'd picked up an iPad Air, or the then unreleased Retina iPad Mini. The Air is pretty amazing, so is the mini- they are so light and powerful.

[Hank]

Yep, watch that Les Paul guy. HOW in the world are you going to find to to practice your axe's? I rarely practice my clarinet and use Austin Symphonic Band rehearsals as my practice (don't tell the director). Enjoy your upcoming time off, dark one.

[JonMarsh]

Yep, watch that Les Paul guy. HOW in the world are you going to find to to practice your axe's? I rarely practice my clarinet and use Austin Symphonic Band rehearsals as my practice (don't tell the director). Enjoy your upcoming time off, dark one.

Well, I have a lot of catching up to do- seemed daunting at first, but then I've found techniques and insights coming back, as if from what is sometimes called muscle memory.

OTOH, you're quite right- my current schedule is hopeless for practice time. But pointy haired manager assures me that after the main work crunch is finished (probably no later than the end of March) he'll get me off of this, by back fill hiring if necessary. So, we'll see... I'm playing a long term game here, both at work and for the resuscitation of certain hobbies. It may not be until I'm fully retired that I have the time to put into them that I want, but who knows? At least I'll be completely equipped and ready and have made a start.

Though the last LP deal on eBay fell through, I have a line on a similar one that hopefully will work out-



Should know by the end of tomorrow.

Well, I have one more MathCAD analysis to do this morning, and a report to HQ, then I'm off for the week! Hank, have a great Thanksgiving, whatever you're up to- be sure it involves tequila in some form or another, as well as good friends and relatives!

~Jon

[Hank]

Thanks Jon, it will involve family, friends and a fine tequila. Happy Thanksgiving to you, too, and to all forum members!

[JonMarsh]

Happy Thanksgiving to all!

OFINALLY, today I get to work on the speakers! Got all the tools and gear moved over to GF's yesterday, though I forgot the Rubidium clock!

Now I have to put together a computer cart for keeping the test gear together and mobile, then get to work.

And I did win that second LP, which will ship on Saturday! Progress all around!

[JonMarsh]

Computer cart assembled, but ran out of time for measurements.

DID hook up the new LF crossovers (well, new some months ago...), got the Cambridge Audio 840W checked out and back in the system, AND the NAD M50 is now hooked up, with 4734 songs according to the check this afternoon, though I have more CD's to load and haven't started on High Res yet. As reported by others, the M50's sonics seem excellent, and the convenience is amazing. Why, I can select an album to play on my iPad using the NAD50 remote program, and start it up, and GF can override and kill it from her iPad and start something else up in just seconds! :W

[JonMarsh]

Working on stuff yesterday afternoon and got everything hooked back up- the Cambridge amp is OK after the retrofit in spite of some ribbon cables that came loose which I wasn't sure about the right way to seat them in their sockets.



The new woofer boards are finally connected. Still getting ready this AM to do some measurements, but found I must have left the new tweeter crossover boards at home- road trip time!

[meb46]

Progress plus Jon!!!! Best use of a Thanks Giving Weekend! I have spent most of my day listening to mine... love them!!!!

[TacoD]

John I used those steel core inductors myself but was not really impressed by those. At least upgrade to something like Mundorf I-Kern. German magazine HobbyHifi measured a lot of core inductors (including the ones you have) and the I series have much higher power rating/ lower distortion.

http://www.mundorf.com/de/?category=hifi&menu=coils&content=mcoil_bs

[JonMarsh]

Interesting- is there a possible link to the reveiw? Thanks for bringing anything like this to my attention.

I looked at a lot of reviews and measurements before settling on trying the Erse SuperQ coils, and did some of my own measurements, too. (good ole HP8903B distortion analyzer, and Aragon power amp with high power load.). Issues of concern are both LF distortion on pass through signal, and distortion on signals at attenuated levels in the crossover. I was looking for coils also with an RDS well under 0.2 ohms for a 6.2 Ohm (the SuperQ AWG14 part I'm using is 0.19 ohms, rated for 600W of power handling, which is far beyond what I need with the efficiency these have). And unlike the Jantzen P cores I'd tried, they don't have an initial higher permeability at lower current, and they don't have the hysteric losses, which do contribute to distortion also. With the biggest Mundorf core on that page, it looks like we're looking at about 0.27 ohms RDC. The one pictured is a smaller core, and it would be hard for me to imagine it having the required power handling or RDC- it looks like the smaller of the three series, with about 0.52 Ohms RDC.

Unfortunately, my buddies at Madisound, who carrie a lot of the Mundorf stuff, don't carry these. If you have a link or PDF regarding the reviews, would be much appreciated. Thanks.

[JonMarsh]

Haste makes waste...

Well, finally getting around to some more measurements, what with new builds on crossovers to check out, and not having had the time to do ANY measurements since the first cabinet set built before the mad scramble to get a pair together and off to the Northern CA DIY.

Well, as near as I can tell, I actually wired one of the midranges out of phase in one of the upper module cabinets- because on one cabinet set, it measures normal with all positive phases, as per the original build, but on the second set, that producer a couple of dips in the crossover region for the system, (a slight one in the lower crossover point, a much more significant one in the upper) until I reverse the phase on the mid driver, then everything looks fine. I never had a chance to measure both systems before going to the Northern CA DIY, and haven't had a chance to measure them here until now, though I do admit to thinking the presence region didn't sound right at times from what I remembered at home listening to one system.



This is the measured response at the listening position in room for the left cabinet with corrected connections with a 150ms measurement window, using a Half Hamming window shape. Note that the measurement window extends to 50 kHz. This is on axis, where the JDT1024 has a bump up in the 13-17 kHz area; it's actually flattest at 30 degrees off axis.

This is with the newer V2 woofer and tweeter crossovers; the tweeter doesn't really change the response but has better impedance characteristics and less expensive cap sizes! It's been very frustrating to be so busy I couldn't get around to doing this earlier; in fact, I was originally scheduled by the company I'm "embedded" at to be working this weekend, but got my boss to push back on it. Unfortunately, that meant one of our other, more junior guys had to do it. I should feel guilty, but I don't, as he lives down there and has a much shorter commute to Cupertino than I do.

The newer crossover midrange crossover is less like a B3 alignment and more into the LR3 mode, and will exhibit more issues at the lower crossover point if out of phase.

Anyway, discovering this problem and the root cause is exciting- I've got to leave now to go look at a storage building of a type we're considering erecting on GF's property, but should have these properly working in stereo for the first time later today! Sheesh! ops:

[TacoD]

Unfortunately I don't have an electronic version of the review, there was a series of articles in 2008. Unfortunately I don't have the original articles at hand. The third edition of 2008, http://www.hobbyhifi.de/Archiv/08/03_08/03_08.html is the one I refer to.

[JonMarsh]

Finally got around today to ordering damping materials (1/8" lead sheet and Cascade VB3) for redoing the damping of the midrange enclosure walls over the break. This has been such a year to cope with, I'm REALLY looking forward to this two week break! As near as I can tell by the 26 or 27 I'll have all materials on hand. This weekend I'll start working on the new midrange crossover layout, I hope to have that ready to test very soon- probably should get one board built and an initial test before Xmas day.

These might really, finally, be finished by New Years, if I can get the grilles done, too!

[sdl2112]

Finally got around today to ordering damping materials (1/8" lead sheet and Cascade VB3) for redoing the damping of the midrange enclosure walls over the break. This has been such a year to cope with, I'm REALLY looking forward to this two week break! As near as I can tell by the 26 or 27 I'll have all materials on hand. This weekend I'll start working on the new midrange crossover layout, I hope to have that ready to test very soon- probably should get one board built and an initial test before Xmas day.

These might really, finally, be finished by New Years, if I can get the grilles done, too!

Good luck on the final stretch...You should be very proud of what you have accomplished, they look great as do the response curves :T I'll be interested in your evaluation of the damping method...I just hope you are able to install the lead sheet.

[benthe8track]

How are you thinking of applying the lead?

[JonMarsh]

How are you thinking of applying the lead?

I'm planning on using Loctite PL Polyurethane construction adhesive I used for the wall liners in the bass bins.

yes, over the break I also plan to spend some time playing with room layout and positioning, talked my GF into it that we'll try it out just for fun, not necessarily as a permanent thing, but so that we know how to set it up for "reference" playback. She's amenable to that, especially now that she's distracted with a new iPad Air.... :W

[johngalt47]

Jon,
I was beginning to think that you had been kidnapped by your boss and shackled to a desk at the client!

[JonMarsh]

Jon,
I was beginning to think that you had been kidnapped by your boss and shackled to a desk at the client!

Nah, been shackled at a lab in Cupertino. Actually, we have interviews for two different guys 2nd week in January, looking to get some one else on board this project and free me up.... :T

Now I've got two weeks off over the Christmas break, a combination of holidays and vacation time.

[JonMarsh]

Woo hoo! Very heavy small box arrived today with the 1/8" lead sheet I ordered. The Cascade VB3 should be shipping or have shipped from Parts Express, and Madisound shipped the Scanspeak D2904/7100-02 tweeters for the upgrade NatP project, too!


And something more immediately fun finally arrived today- haven't been home to receive it earlier this week:



It's definitely going to be a musical holiday, in many ways!

[JonMarsh]

Some Handel on Sunday

My GF sings soprano in the chorale for a local production of Handel's Messiah in San Ramon most Christmas's (all that I've known her) - this one no exception. She's spending most of her spare time practicing for several weeks before the event; this year it was held this last Sunday, the 22nd. They've got a pretty good live orchestra for it, and a selection of very competent Bay area singers for the leads.




It's always a pleasure to hear live music like this, and I can't emphasize often enough what a good idea it is to get out and "soak up some "kultchuah"! Besides, it's good for your critical listening ears!

Hope all of you are doing some fun things these holidays with friends and family!

~Jon

[TEK]

It's really bad when you tell yourself a joke that you never heard before.....

:rf
Thanks, loved it!

[JonMarsh]

My excuse this weekend...

Well, it's all part of the parallel processing plan... things that must be done in some sequence though I wish they could be in parallel.

The second stage boards of the new midrange crossovers and the jumper wires have been finished and delivered to GF's for testing.

But the focus this weekend at GF's, especially considering the crummy weather, and ongoing plans, was to install a hanging storage rack (purchased from CostCo online at a nice price), see how it worked out, and lay the ground for improved storage and buying another hanging storage rack.

As a test, GF read the instructions first to try to figure out how to do this (plus, that way she could play supervisor), but as is often the case with things like this, they're written by someone who understands fully how to do this, and doesn't understand how little inherent knowledge or understanding of drawings the average person has. So while I had a question or two here and there, it wasn't anything I couldn't easily figure out on my own, and overall the installation went smoothly once we agreed upon the set of rafter beams to use and the positioning.

Looking towards the rack with a normal perspective (i.e., straight ahead, not looking up)



Looking up at the rack, to view the storage area




Easy for a tall person to walk under, even one of my coworkers who's a Jack Reacher-esque 6'5" (Danish viking, basically- i.e., actually a Danish citizen).

The plan of record now, with beautiful unseasonably warm weather arriving, is to test with the new crossovers out doors on the backyard patio next weekend, then begin the cabinet modifications (midrange enclosure damping, new SE-11 concentric cable for midrange and tweeter wiring, and permanently mating the cabinet halves...


Slow work takes time....

[JonMarsh]

Testing with new Midrange and tweeter crossovers

The weather and activity gods cooperated this weekend, for the most part- so by Sunday I got around to doing the testing I had planned for Saturday! The tested cabinet was also the at times problematic cabinet #2, the one with the tweeter internally wired out of phase (as I discovered well AFTER the Nothern CA DIY. For a while I suspect it was the midrange out of phase, which was harder to detect one way or the other with the original Mk1 Midrange and LF crossover, because it behaves like a B3 for the woofer to midrange transition, so it will measure fairly flat through that transition region with either polarity on the midrange. Further checks showed it was not the midrange, but the internal tweeter wiring. That's the problem with trying to build something to a tight schedule and not having time to double check everything thoroughly.


Anyway, enough of that, on to the meat of Sunday's work.

This is a plot of the right cabinet (it's known as "Clyde" by GF; the left channel, article 1, is known as "Bonnie", and has the little draped navaho mini-blanket on it usually.... quirky girl friend, gotta love her and support her quirks, as she does mine..)

This is indoors, with the new LF crossovers, (also as MEB built) the old one piece Mid + tweeter Mk1 crossover, 150 msec Half Hamming window (some long time HF reflection rejection, but decent LF resolution); the notch around 40-50 Hz is a room modal issue due to less than ideal placement at this time (to be remedied in the future, negotiation with GF)




This is the same test setup and crossovers, now outdoors, measurement distance of 4 ft, 150msec Half Hamming window. 4ft is about the closest distance for good wavefront recombination, and would be the minimum "near field" listening distance.



Bye Bye LF notch. I think the bump in the LF response overall is due simply to the floor boundary, and that being the only boundary- near field measurements of the LF drivers are pretty flat from 40 Hz to 1500 Hz.



This next one is with the reverse phase connection of the midrange with newest midrange crossover, two piece, which coupled with the newer LF crossover gives something more like a modified LR3 function if such a thing existed; let's just call it the NatalieP-3 function, since it originated with the development of the original NatalieP and Modula MT. This is also with the updated tweeter crossover- see below for details in schematic. This is still at 4 feet, on what I would call the listening axis (if you were seated for near field listening to these things). You can get somewhat deeper nulls of both the midrange and tweeter, individually, by moving the mic up and down, and by moving it back (the woofer source is pretty tall and as close as this, it's somewhat spread out in phase, due to the geometry) but this shows the behavior at the nominal listening axis.





Here's the response with in phase connection of the midrange driver, all other conditions the same as previous measurements.



This looks about like what I expected after the last round of LspCAD sims and the crossover updates that came from that. Note this is at 1/12th octave smoothing.

There's still some other work to be on internal damping of the midrange cabinet and external diffraction control and grill clothes. There's some stuff I'm seeing in unsmoothed data that looks mostly like diffraction effects. Time to squash those. (well, when I next get some free time- we're making progress on backfill hiring and getting me back into a more normal role at work).



Who knows, with the right work, we may get pretty close to this kind of smoothness- just for fun, 1/3 octave smoothing, like you see a lot of guys posting their designs with. Can't blame them, it looks good this way, and may fairly correlate well with the true balance and smoothness of the drivers and network.



We'll have to see how close to this I can get with the next round of work. :W

A refresher: the current schematic:



The new build has split the midrange into two long boards, so they can fit internally in the cabinet. The changes in the crossover are smaller values for the two series caps, particularly the C2a cluster, and L5 going from 1 mHz to 820 mH. Note, I've actually made the crossover less expensive.... mmm, about time, huh? For the tweeter crossover, I normally have that switch closed (actually, hardwired) but it can be used to provide a softer more polite top end. With my current DAC and electronics, I don't think that is necessary or desirable, but I'm sure if I had my old Benchmark DAC, I'd be flipping that switch open in a heart beat.

I did a quick "sound check" before moving on to other chores and errands, just the first cut of these albums...










I'm pretty happy with a quick check on the results! More palpability.... more focus to imaging.


The design will be the basis for the Wavecor Ardent network, too. It may wind up being quite similar.

[dar47]

Haven't we all done the wire out of phase trick? For me it's when I have the mid and tweet on the same board, at the terminal blocks.

Congratulations! they must be wonderful and here is hoping it translates to the Ardents.

We had a tough day at the Ardent factory. Ben tweaked out the grills and they are going to be slick. Started CNCing and again I thought I bought a 3/16" spiral bit for the screen cord groove and they gave me a 1/8" bit but this time we cut just 1 grill and figured it out and made adjustments. After going for all 8 grills on a sheet we got half way through cutting when the software lost position. Ben tried all his tricks to try and get back to 0,0 but we ended up scrapping it. It's only 1 sheet so tomorrow we will finish the grills.

We did get 1 of Ben's baffles epoxied up to the cab and should be able do one a night this week. Inserts and bolts are in so we are close to shipping time!.

Hope you can find a little spare time to listen to those beauties cause I now can appreciate all the work that went into them. :T

[JonMarsh]

Thanks- and just think, I did my sets the purely old fashioned and time consuming way!

I did take another short listen yesterday while I was dropping off stuff to go up in the new garage storage rack- I'm quite happy at this point, and knowing it will get even somewhat better.

You guys really have been slogging away at this steadily- made a lot of progress in short time compared with what I've been able to do on projects due to time limitations and construction methods. Kudos to you! :T

[JonMarsh]

This belongs in the yet to be created official build thread, but may be useful for reference.

Keep in mind, doing R&D, I've basically built two sets of crossovers...

this is for the current Mk2 configuration, which is also Mike's woofer configuration and similar to his tweeter configuration- this is the component breakdown and cost for a full stereo set, not per speaker. I shudder to think what the markup would be in a commercial speaker, but then, there's probably a reason that a set of Avalon Isis goes for about $72K list.

Lotsa expensive parts, likely can be done for less than 1/2, but how much remains to be seen- will be targeting cost and size reduction for similar crossover for Wavecor Ardents.

[Carl V]

I have peaked inside a colleagues Magico M5 and now his Q5 speaker.
Wow....the enclosure is damn nice & the extensive XO can not be described as
Minimalist. The sound is damned good as well. He once had Souns Faber...those
Big XO's were potted.

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, I've seen some pictures of Magico internals- pretty impressive.

If I won the lottery, Q5's would be near the top of my list, but I couldn't even move one of them around, (387 lb.!) much less afford to buy them, though at just under $60K, I'd say the value proposition is there, more so than many high end systems. Another challenge with the Magico Q5 is the impedance curve- dropping under 4 ohms frequently, and with a heavy capacitive phase angle at around 35-55 Hz. Need a very good amp to drive these successfully. Going by the Stereophile measurements, I wonder a bit how they sound in room- (I've heard some smaller Magico's, which were quite nice) - that large front baffle shows up in a disparity between on axis measurements and off axis power response.

Oh well, that's like complaining about the gas mileage of a Lamborghini, right?

[dar47]

i was figuring around $1500. for the good stuff for the Ardents. When you look at the cabinet and driver investment as well as $600 in veneer and finish, this is inline. I'm down with balance through the design as well as bang for buck. This is the sound part we are after is it not? :T