Three Way Evil Design Study

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  • Evil Twin
    Super Senior Member
    • Nov 2004
    • 1531

    Three Way Evil Design Study

    The Emperor has commanded that I undertake a new three way design study.

    The goal, as he put it, was a new box speaker with higher output capability (+ 6 dB) than the M8ta, but a similar overall approach.

    I am still puzzling over his enigmatic command to find "one rule to drive them all"; he suggested searching for the clues from "the mad loudspeaker professor".

    Without a solid foundation, no project will succeed, so for now I submit a proposal for the foundation element, the bass/lower midrange system.


    Requirements:
    • In room response to 20 Hz @ 106 dB/1 meter each cabinet
    • Enclosure volume no more than 3 cu ft
    • Driver must function as full output midrange to 600 Hz, clean to twice that frequency
    • No more than 100 watt drive required for specified SPL
    • Sensitivity for 2.83V in the 88-89 dB range



    Few drivers are suitable for meeting these requirements. It does not require Force sensitivity to realize there are very few possible candidates, especially given the extended midrange and sensitivity requirement.


    The selected woofer is the Aurasound NS12-513A


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    Using Unibox and with some curve fitting of published data and T/S specifications, an LF design was derived based on the target goals:
    • Net enclosure volume: 76 Liters
    • Fb tuning: 18 Hz
    • System F6: 20 Hz anechoic
    • Port: 3" ID, Length = 19" flared both ends
    • Lined enclosure, light stuffing
    • With port blocked, operates as Q~0.5 sealed, 100 dB @ 28 Hz Max anechoic, 106 dB@ 28 Hz in room
    • 100 watt drive level for full output
    • Port velocity within limits at any frequency from 16 Hz to 100 Hz @ 100 watts, nominal ouptut per cabinet in room of 106 dB.





    Predicted response and Xmax limits from Unibox

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    The Emperor conveys his permission to use this as a subwoofer design also, for those so inclined, though it will not match the output capabilities of the true long travel drivers, and the enclosure may not be as small as some would like. On the other hand, upper bass performance and integration with other speakers should be excellent. A Force balanced dual driver subwoofer design in one cabinet will require a net interior total volume of approximately 5.5 cu ft.

    For the rest of the day, I shall retire to the meditation chamber and ponder the enigmatic directions of my master and the challenges which lie ahead...

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    Last edited by theSven; 21 February 2023, 22:59 Tuesday. Reason: Updated URL for htguide
    DFAL
    Dark Force Acoustic Labs

    A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries
  • TacoD
    Super Senior Member
    • Feb 2004
    • 1078

    #2
    Interesting choice, problem is that those aurasound drivers are so expensive in Europe, I considered this driver to replace Eton 11" as that puny driver cannot cope with reasonable sound levels.

    You can go several directions, but If I may suggest the uber low crossed waveguided tweeter route. However, you should do the math on max spl capabilities of this kind of construction, maybe a waveguided 2" dayton mid dome? Or what about a 2" compression driver from B&C? However, as you know, waveguides increase in dimension very fast with low working frequencies.

    Comment

    • chasw98
      Super Senior Member
      • Jan 2006
      • 1360

      #3
      Out here in the Unistats system on the planet of Floridan, we have been feeling neglected by the Empire. We pay what we must to the Emperor but rarely do we get the protection needed. There is a small but growing base that supports the Emperor and his Dark Lord. We in Floridan have a special need. We are looking to reach the upper areas of response but, alas, we are short of technicians. We have very skilled laborers that can implement any command Lord Vader issues (Remember your M/T command and we built in great numbers). We would like to see something with a ribbon incorporated or possibly a line array that would fully complement the dark, black bottom end that is being announced in our hinterlands. (We learned about this on a recent trip to the Mos Eisley Spaceport where we are in negotiations to acquire low end, very low end technology). We await your command.

      Comment

      • Evil Twin
        Super Senior Member
        • Nov 2004
        • 1531

        #4
        Originally posted by chasw98
        Out here in the Unistats system on the planet of Floridan, we have been feeling neglected by the Empire. We pay what we must to the Emperor but rarely do we get the protection needed. There is a small but growing base that supports the Emperor and his Dark Lord. We in Floridan have a special need. We are looking to reach the upper areas of response but, alas, we are short of technicians. We have very skilled laborers that can implement any command Lord Vader issues (Remember your M/T command and we built in great numbers). We would like to see something with a ribbon incorporated or possibly a line array that would fully complement the dark, black bottom end that is being announced in our hinterlands. (We learned about this on a recent trip to the Mos Eisley Spaceport where we are in negotiations to acquire low end, very low end technology). We await your command.
        This is more than a distinct possiblity... but will follow on to the other dipole system the Emperor himself is working on. Due to existing work loads in Imperial facilities, this may be subcontracted to a nearby INCOM facility. It is believed that the applied research for this three way study may be useful for the definitive line array system, even though the Emperor's marketing consultants believed the market for the three way is small due to the difficulty of manufacture and cost of components.

        They have been wrong in the past, requiring me to personally accept their apologies...


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        obviously they cannot repeat that mistake again.

        It is puzzling to us that the Aurasound NS12-513A is priced so excessively in planet Europa, as the cost of shipping is half that of most similar products, due to it's neodymium motor structure incorporating rare earth crystals similar to those powering my light saber. It may be that the only source is gray market via Rebel smugglers- this is certainly a plausible explanation.
        Last edited by theSven; 21 February 2023, 22:59 Tuesday. Reason: Updated URL for htguide
        DFAL
        Dark Force Acoustic Labs

        A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

        Comment

        • Evil Twin
          Super Senior Member
          • Nov 2004
          • 1531

          #5
          Originally posted by TacoD
          Interesting choice, problem is that those aurasound drivers are so expensive in Europe, I considered this driver to replace Eton 11" as that puny driver cannot cope with reasonable sound levels.

          You can go several directions, but If I may suggest the uber low crossed waveguided tweeter route. However, you should do the math on max spl capabilities of this kind of construction, maybe a waveguided 2" dayton mid dome? Or what about a 2" compression driver from B&C? However, as you know, waveguides increase in dimension very fast with low working frequencies.
          Interesting proposals, but considering the issues noted here , working out the crossover frequencies and driver will require some thought and investigation. A preliminary concept just prepared requires theoretical analysis and experimental confirmation. It shows substantial promise, though, without creating an unrealistically high bar to fabrication. Optimization of off axis behavior is still a concern, as is drive capabilities for frequency extension and SPL.
          Last edited by theSven; 02 May 2023, 20:19 Tuesday. Reason: Update image location
          DFAL
          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

          Comment

          • TacoD
            Super Senior Member
            • Feb 2004
            • 1078

            #6
            My experiences with Duelund are very good, 2* square root 2 does sound great. I also tried pi, and 1,7.... but the balance was not to my liking. I got the best result using small Audiotechnology drivers and Scan Speak 6600, but I think the emperor doesn't agree with my driver selection.

            So may I propose the W18EX for mid duties, not so expensive as Thiel / AT but also very good with great extension. For me it's the best sounding "rigid" cone (and yes I also tried other cones). Or what about the Eton 7" the one with silver heatpipe. Very low distortion, but limited x-max (which should not be a problem if used >600 Hz). But I don't think they can match the W18 resolution wise.

            Comment

            • CraigJ
              Senior Member
              • Feb 2006
              • 518

              #7
              What's this?

              "Move along now... these aren't the droids you want... there's nothing here for you.

              We know this is all just a plot to annoy Neil Patel...


              This is just a distraction until the M10ta in development is ready...

              NS10-513 woofer, C89-6 Midwoofer, C13 tweeter with waveguide.


              Oh, it isn't April yet? Are you sure about Imperial to Gregorian calendar conversions? Christmas? Oh crap...."
              __

              Comment

              • KeithM
                Senior Member
                • Oct 2005
                • 285

                #8
                sorry to be no help, but where can you get the NS-512 you're talking about? I only see the 794.

                Comment

                • ---k---
                  Ultra Senior Member
                  • Nov 2005
                  • 5202

                  #9
                  Madisound has it for $184.



                  Evil Twin,
                  Has the emperor given you a target budget for this new undertaking?
                  - Ryan

                  CJD Ochocinco! ND140/BC25SC06 MTM & TM
                  CJD Khanspires - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS225 WMTMW
                  CJD Khancenter - A Dayton RS28/RS150/RS180 WTMW Center

                  Comment

                  • mazurek
                    Senior Member
                    • Mar 2006
                    • 204

                    #10
                    I can post some Dayton Reference 10" Measurements if people are interested, I just need to sort out my semi-dysfunctional cabinets.

                    Comment

                    • Jed
                      Ultra Senior Member
                      • Apr 2005
                      • 3617

                      #11
                      Originally posted by TacoD
                      My experiences with Duelund are very good, 2* square root 2 does sound great. I also tried pi, and 1,7.... but the balance was not to my liking. I got the best result using small Audiotechnology drivers and Scan Speak 6600, but I think the emperor doesn't agree with my driver selection.

                      So may I propose the W18EX for mid duties, not so expensive as Thiel / AT but also very good with great extension. For me it's the best sounding "rigid" cone (and yes I also tried other cones). Or what about the Eton 7" the one with silver heatpipe. Very low distortion, but limited x-max (which should not be a problem if used >600 Hz). But I don't think they can match the W18 resolution wise.
                      I think the emperor calls for more than is possible by mere plebleians... that is he will enforce his choke hold on anything that rises in distortion greater than the deviation allowed. The Eton 7-375, while a very interesting and nice midrange, suffers from a high Q peak that induces 3rd order harmonics greater than the allowable quota- even if it is tamed by a notch filter. Frequency response must also be considered past 3K, where the likes of SEAS and Eton have never gone before without beaming disasters and untethered distortion.

                      Taco, have you used the Eton 7-375 yet? I actually do like the Eton's very much. I'm using the 7-375 with an 4-300 and ER4 right now actually and have thought about pulling the 7"er out to use in a different system as a dedicated midrange from 300hz-2k. This little 7" can't do much bass but I've used it in a small room at limited SPL levels. Now I'm looking for a 3-way system that is more extended at the bottom end. The 7" might be just the ticket for me- clearly a "plebeian." hehe.

                      I've also been looking at the Scan Speak 15W and 15M as a midrange. Do you have much experience with these 2 drivers?

                      Thanks,

                      Jed

                      Comment

                      • Jed
                        Ultra Senior Member
                        • Apr 2005
                        • 3617

                        #12
                        Originally posted by CraigJ

                        This is just a distraction until the M10ta in development is ready...

                        NS10-513 woofer, C89-6 Midwoofer, C13 tweeter with waveguide.

                        __


                        hmmm... you mean M12ta?

                        NS12, C89 or C79 and C24.

                        Comment

                        • TacoD
                          Super Senior Member
                          • Feb 2004
                          • 1078

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Jed
                          I think the emperor calls for more than is possible by mere plebleians... that is he will enforce his choke hold on anything that rises in distortion greater than the deviation allowed. The Eton 7-375, while a very interesting and nice midrange, suffers from a high Q peak that induces 3rd order harmonics greater than the allowable quota- even if it is tamed by a notch filter. Frequency response must also be considered past 3K, where the likes of SEAS and Eton have never gone before without beaming disasters and untethered distortion.

                          Taco, have you used the Eton 7-375 yet? I actually do like the Eton's very much. I'm using the 7-375 with an 4-300 and ER4 right now actually and have thought about pulling the 7"er out to use in a different system as a dedicated midrange from 300hz-2k. This little 7" can't do much bass but I've used it in a small room at limited SPL levels. Now I'm looking for a 3-way system that is more extended at the bottom end. The 7" might be just the ticket for me- clearly a "plebeian." hehe.

                          I've also been looking at the Scan Speak 15W and 15M as a midrange. Do you have much experience with these 2 drivers?

                          Thanks,

                          Jed
                          The emperor needs to revise his boundary conditions if he wants a human speaker (as opposed to the inhumanly priced accuton drivers). I've used the Eton 7-372 in several projects, but never used the 7-375. In general I find the eton units lacking in detail when compared to the seas excel and accutons. The only accuton I used (C2-95) wasn't to my liking (steep or shallow filter + notch, it just wasn't happening for me).

                          If you like the Eton sound, do not use the 15W. Of the new series I've used the 15W8530K01 and the 18W8531, for 2-way designs these drivers can work very good (though with it's own signature), but I wouldn't use them in conjunction with other non scanspeak units. As the difference in timbre is quite large.

                          As for the 3way we are looking for a low distortion driver with good extension and SPL capabilities. When also a Duelund filter is used the choice is most probably limited to drivers with a max diameter of 5". Didn't aurasound offering a 4 or 5 inch which would be a possibility?

                          edit: hmm Aurasound isn't up to the task. They should stick to woofers

                          What about this true mid driver from Peerless? Krell is using it in their resolution series, it is definetely a true mid with good sensitivity and can barely be used >600 Hz.
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                          Comment

                          • Jed
                            Ultra Senior Member
                            • Apr 2005
                            • 3617

                            #14
                            That peerless doesn't seem to remain pistonic about 1K......... clearly not part of the emperor's tenet.

                            Comment

                            • TacoD
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Feb 2004
                              • 1078

                              #15
                              you need something with extension... Visaton Ti100 is pistonic but lacks the sensivity. The small Accuton mids also store energy and have trouble with low frequencies. What about the Visaton AL 130 M (special mid woofer)

                              Comment

                              • Jed
                                Ultra Senior Member
                                • Apr 2005
                                • 3617

                                #16
                                Originally posted by TacoD
                                you need something with extension... Visaton Ti100 is pistonic but lacks the sensivity. The small Accuton mids also store energy and have trouble with low frequencies.
                                The 3-5" Accuton seems to be the best compromise though. For example, to get more out of the Ti100 or Excel W15CH, you could use 2 to reach the target SPL, but then you have other things to deal with and the cost is getting closer to Accuton territory. The Scan Speak 12M is extended in the top end and very smooth, but has more energy storage than Accuton. How much is acceptable (energy storage), how much of it is audible, what limitations are notable? Each person has his own take on this but ultimately the emperor will decide.

                                Comment

                                • TacoD
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Feb 2004
                                  • 1078

                                  #17
                                  Oohps I edited my post after you quoted me . Besides the fact that Accuton is expensive the durability isn't that great (several report a broken cone). The Scan Speak will not blend in with the Aura, also the cone is not rigid (pistonic behaviour you talked about earlier). Seas Excel is still a good option (W12).

                                  Comment

                                  • Jed
                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                    • Apr 2005
                                    • 3617

                                    #18
                                    Agree on the Visaton AL130 M.... Looks better than Ti100 (distortion and sensitivity). Seas W12 is only 85Dbs/1watt and has more odd order harmonic peaking above 1.5k than AL130M.

                                    Comment

                                    • Jim Holtz
                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                      • Mar 2005
                                      • 3223

                                      #19
                                      Originally posted by Jed
                                      The 3-5" Accuton seems to be the best compromise though. For example, to get more out of the Ti100 or Excel W15CH, you could use 2 to reach the target SPL, but then you have other things to deal with and the cost is getting closer to Accuton territory. The Scan Speak 12M is extended in the top end and very smooth, but has more energy storage than Accuton. How much is acceptable (energy storage), how much of it is audible, what limitations are notable? Each person has his own take on this but ultimately the emperor will decide.
                                      What about the Tang Band W4-1337S in a MTM configuration to bring dynamics up? It looks very similar to the Ti100 with a little less xmax but possibly a better motor. Great price too...



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                                      Jim
                                      Last edited by theSven; 21 February 2023, 23:00 Tuesday. Reason: Updated URL for htguide

                                      Comment

                                      • Jed
                                        Ultra Senior Member
                                        • Apr 2005
                                        • 3617

                                        #20
                                        Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                                        What about the Tang Band W4-1337S in a MTM configuration to bring dynamics up? It looks very similar to the Ti100 with a little less xmax but possibly a better motor. Great price too...



                                        Jim

                                        I haven't seen any specs/testing on that one. However, I have seen measurements on other drivers from TB, not too impressive. This one might be different though, given the addition of a what appears to be a better motor etc.

                                        Comment

                                        • Jim Holtz
                                          Ultra Senior Member
                                          • Mar 2005
                                          • 3223

                                          #21
                                          Originally posted by Jed
                                          I haven't seen any specs/testing on that one. However, I have seen measurements on other drivers from TB, not too impressive. This one might be different though, given the addition of a what appears to be a better motor etc.
                                          Hi Jed,

                                          I've not seen any testing of this driver either. Several of the other TB drivers use a lot of copper from what I understand. IT certainly looks like Visaton and TB sourced the basket and cone from the same source. Very similar in appearance. They also advertise it as a low 2nd and 3rd order distortion driver. Neil Davis used it in an active 3-way he built for his daughter and thought it was excellent as a mid range. The price is certainly right and a MTM configuration would meet Evil Twins 88-89 db sensitivity goal.

                                          I'd like to see some real measurements on it.

                                          Jim

                                          Comment

                                          • Jonasz
                                            Senior Member
                                            • Nov 2004
                                            • 852

                                            #22
                                            Jim that's an interesting driver, where can I find more info? Couldn't locate it on Tangbands homepage.

                                            Edit: Just saw your answer above...

                                            Comment

                                            • Jim Holtz
                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                              • Mar 2005
                                              • 3223

                                              #23
                                              Originally posted by Jonasz
                                              Jim that's an interesting driver, where can I find more info? Couldn't locate it on Tangbands homepage.

                                              Edit: Just saw your answer above...
                                              Hi Jonasz,

                                              Here's the link to the Tang Band page. Actually Curt pointed it out to me while I was drooling over the Ti100 sound quality. It looks to have potential.



                                              Jim

                                              Comment

                                              • Paul Ebert
                                                Senior Member
                                                • May 2004
                                                • 402

                                                #24
                                                I'm curious why the measured response for the NS12 is so different from the published response. The published response is around 85 dB except for a broad peak around 100 hz.

                                                Given that my target spl (for whatever I end up building) is 90 dB, this makes quite a difference for me.

                                                The measured response looks excellent!

                                                Comment

                                                • TurboFC3S
                                                  Member
                                                  • Nov 2006
                                                  • 93

                                                  #25
                                                  Originally posted by Jim Holtz
                                                  I'd like to see some real measurements on it.
                                                  Ditto that, it looks interesting for sure ... but Tang Band published specs are notorious for being quite 'optimistic'. I'm currently digging around, looking for the perfect sub $100 midrange to use in a MTMWW build and this could be the answer. I'd possibly buy a pair if somebody could do all the extensive testing. I don't have enough confidence in my own testing abilites yet to make any judgement. One other at the top of my list is the Peerless 4" HDS Exclusive.

                                                  Comment

                                                  • Jed
                                                    Ultra Senior Member
                                                    • Apr 2005
                                                    • 3617

                                                    #26
                                                    Originally posted by Paul Ebert
                                                    I'm curious why the measured response for the NS12 is so different from the published response. The published response is around 85 dB except for a broad peak around 100 hz.

                                                    Given that my target spl (for whatever I end up building) is 90 dB, this makes quite a difference for me.

                                                    The measured response looks excellent!
                                                    I can't remember at what level Evil Twin tested this woofer. Perhaps it wasn't 1watt/1meter.

                                                    Comment

                                                    • HMenke
                                                      Senior Member
                                                      • Feb 2006
                                                      • 226

                                                      #27
                                                      Originally posted by TacoD
                                                      Interesting choice, problem is that those aurasound drivers are so expensive in Europe...
                                                      No doubt due to the heavy tariffs imposed by the commerce-throttling Trade Federation and the related high cost of blockade running to avoid them (fast ships with experienced captains don't come cheap).

                                                      Comment

                                                      • thylantyr
                                                        Senior Member
                                                        • Nov 2004
                                                        • 127

                                                        #28
                                                        The Emperor needs to watch Lord of the Rings.

                                                        "One line array to rule them all, One line array
                                                        to find them, One line array to bring them all and in
                                                        darkness ....... kill, maim and destroy them all".

                                                        Comment

                                                        • Evil Twin
                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                          • Nov 2004
                                                          • 1531

                                                          #29
                                                          Originally posted by Jed
                                                          hmmm... you mean M12ta?

                                                          NS12, C89 or C79 and C24.

                                                          Ah, the Force is strong in this one.... very strong.



                                                          Yes, if you have worked for Galcom, Sub Seinar, or INCOM, you know how management is always changing goals. Additional low frequency extension and output with only a minor size and cost impact; for these reasons, the M10ta became the M12ta design study.

                                                          The midrange driver is a difficult problem if a=2.82 for the crossover coefficient; it must have basically clean behavior from 150 Hz to about 10 kHz, and be able to sustain about 105 dB output at Xmax limits at 300 Hz. The C79 and C89 can do this, with about 8 dB headroom for baffle step compensation and higher level peaks. Considering the power bandwidth characteristic of music, this may be acceptable in singles, or may require a stackup- the latter is a concern because of integration issues at the crossover point.

                                                          We appreciate all the inputs and suggestions- if 5 kHz were adequate for the top end of the midrange, many more drivers would be considered. But the linear distortion is not attenuated very far with this crossover approach, so this places a premium on broadband behavior.
                                                          DFAL
                                                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                          Comment

                                                          • Evil Twin
                                                            Super Senior Member
                                                            • Nov 2004
                                                            • 1531

                                                            #30
                                                            Originally posted by Paul Ebert
                                                            I'm curious why the measured response for the NS12 is so different from the published response. The published response is around 85 dB except for a broad peak around 100 hz.

                                                            Given that my target spl (for whatever I end up building) is 90 dB, this makes quite a difference for me.

                                                            The measured response looks excellent!

                                                            Aurasound actually specified sensitivity for 1W and for 2.83VRMS, unlike many who say 1W under the assumption that if the driver is nominal 8 ohm, 2.83VRSM gives 1W, so they test with 2.83VRMS. Of course, the driver may be 6 ohms where sensitivity is measured. The NS12-513A is a 4 ohm driver; driven with 2.83 VRMS the output is ~ 88 dB.

                                                            For sub testing under the Dark side it's the Emperor's preference to push things a bit harder, so typical test levels for SPL and distortion are 4VRMS and 10VRMS; on any reasonable efficiency "woofer" 10VRMS is a fair amount of output level.
                                                            DFAL
                                                            Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                            A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                            Comment

                                                            • cobbpa
                                                              Senior Member
                                                              • Apr 2005
                                                              • 456

                                                              #31
                                                              What about the Jordan driver as a mid? I've heard this once and it was very nice, but I don't know how exactly to get them in the US. Expensive as well. There may be other sites for better info, but this is what I came up with quickly.

                                                              Last edited by cobbpa; 18 December 2006, 16:19 Monday.

                                                              Comment

                                                              • Evil Twin
                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                • Nov 2004
                                                                • 1531

                                                                #32
                                                                Originally posted by TacoD
                                                                My experiences with Duelund are very good, 2* square root 2 does sound great. I also tried pi, and 1,7.... but the balance was not to my liking. I got the best result using small Audiotechnology drivers and Scan Speak 6600, but I think the emperor doesn't agree with my driver selection.

                                                                So may I propose the W18EX for mid duties, not so expensive as Thiel / AT but also very good with great extension. For me it's the best sounding "rigid" cone (and yes I also tried other cones). Or what about the Eton 7" the one with silver heatpipe. Very low distortion, but limited x-max (which should not be a problem if used >600 Hz). But I don't think they can match the W18 resolution wise.
                                                                This design study will have an interesting impact on "workflow", as the target transfer functions must first be created and evaulated in MathCAD, then imported to LspCAD for actual system development and driver. The tradeoffs reducing the workload on the woofer and tweeter dramatically increase it on the mid. But initial analytical study does not reveal insurmountable problems, and for less demanding applications (3 way center channel), this approach may also be most useful.

                                                                To be determined is whether the results merit the effort and limitations in driver selection compared with more conventional techniques. The relative phase integration of all drivers is most promising for potential benefits, but it remains to be seen how difficult the practical application is, and what the Emperor's listening tests will decide.

                                                                ... it just feels right in the Force.
                                                                DFAL
                                                                Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                Comment

                                                                • Evil Twin
                                                                  Super Senior Member
                                                                  • Nov 2004
                                                                  • 1531

                                                                  #33
                                                                  Originally posted by ---k---
                                                                  Madisound has it for $184.



                                                                  Evil Twin,
                                                                  Has the emperor given you a target budget for this new undertaking?

                                                                  The parameters of the design establish the basic budget because of the limited cost/performance ratios of available drivers.

                                                                  In this case, the expected driver budget per pair is about $1500-$1600.

                                                                  While some designs have been known to have crossover costs well exceeding the cost of the drivers, that is not expected in this case, though it is a three way, and wil require solid impedance compensation networks as well. An approximate estimate would be $500, perhaps $750 with some upgrades or unforseen issues.

                                                                  Then, there is the cabinet- BB ply and HDF primarily; choice of veneer will establish the upper cost limits. A reasonble total estimate is under $3K.

                                                                  That is a fairly high cost for a DIY system, but understand the target is systems in the $20-$30K range like the Avalon Eidelon.
                                                                  DFAL
                                                                  Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                  A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

                                                                  Comment

                                                                  • kravi4ka
                                                                    Member
                                                                    • Feb 2006
                                                                    • 90

                                                                    #34
                                                                    That is a fairly high cost for a DIY system, but understand the target is systems in the $20-$30K range like the Avalon Eidelon.
                                                                    I believe it is was when the Universe was created that true Jedai masters discovered that they can control the flow of The Force (Music) and realized that undistorted Force (Music) allows them to make people happy (or control rebelions in other cases )... Greater control of the Force comes at an expense and always with sweat (I do believe Skywalker should have started with the M8ta cabinet instead of weak efforts in levitation ) and there might be people willing to try and learn more...

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                                                                    • JonMarsh
                                                                      Mad Max Moderator
                                                                      • Aug 2000
                                                                      • 15261

                                                                      #35
                                                                      you know, I bet levitating an X-Wing fighter is a little harder than an M8ta cabinet, but probably it's just a small matter of degree at that point- as Yoda mentions, size matters not.

                                                                      Now, consider that what's being proposed here is not much bigger than an M8ta- 76 liter for woofer vs. 68 liter for the M8ta. Plus the midrange volume, probably another 10 - 15 liters. I wonder if Evil Twin will stick with a one piece solution, or go for two cabinets a'la Watt/Puppy or Isis, or one piece like the Wilson Audio Sophia?
                                                                      the AudioWorx
                                                                      Natalie P
                                                                      M8ta
                                                                      Modula Neo DCC
                                                                      Modula MT XE
                                                                      Modula Xtreme
                                                                      Isiris
                                                                      Wavecor Ardent

                                                                      SMJ
                                                                      Minerva Monitor
                                                                      Calliope
                                                                      Ardent D

                                                                      In Development...
                                                                      Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                                                      Obi-Wan
                                                                      Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                                                      Modula PWB
                                                                      Calliope CC Supreme
                                                                      Natalie P Ultra
                                                                      Natalie P Supreme
                                                                      Janus BP1 Sub


                                                                      Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                                                      Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                                                      Comment

                                                                      • chasw98
                                                                        Super Senior Member
                                                                        • Jan 2006
                                                                        • 1360

                                                                        #36
                                                                        Originally posted by Evil Twin
                                                                        That is a fairly high cost for a DIY system, but understand the target is systems in the $20-$30K range like the Avalon Eidelon.
                                                                        Oh dearest Master of the Dark, don't you mean "Eidolon" for those of us not close to the Empire searching for information to plan your rebellion?

                                                                        Comment

                                                                        • kravi4ka
                                                                          Member
                                                                          • Feb 2006
                                                                          • 90

                                                                          #37
                                                                          Originally posted by JonMarsh
                                                                          you know, I bet levitating an X-Wing fighter is a little harder than an M8ta cabinet, but probably it's just a small matter of degree at that point- as Yoda mentions, size matters not.
                                                                          ops: For the obsessive compulsive doctors challenged with calculations ( inches to mm, sine and cosine calculations to get the size of bevels ops: ops: ) it was difficult... I love working with wood but man, are these numbers and formulas scary
                                                                          That's why I belive Mark K is one true Jedi- MD with kids (not two you know) and SPEAKERBUILDING as a hobby...

                                                                          Comment

                                                                          • ssabripo
                                                                            Senior Member
                                                                            • Dec 2005
                                                                            • 336

                                                                            #38
                                                                            Dear Dark Lord, is the possibility of using the Seas W15 or W12 even in the ballpark, err... I mean....spaceship? Secondly, has the outer topology and structure of this undertaking been narrowed down yet?

                                                                            As compadre Chasw98 said, we in Floridan kindly await news of such designs, as I have exhumed my resources to developing just such thing when the time arrives, once the completion of the twin towers has been done.

                                                                            yours truly.....Billy Dee....err, I mean.... Lando
                                                                            Last edited by theSven; 02 May 2023, 20:17 Tuesday. Reason: Remove broken image link
                                                                            My simple HT setup
                                                                            4π using LMS, anyone?

                                                                            Comment

                                                                            • cjd
                                                                              Ultra Senior Member
                                                                              • Dec 2004
                                                                              • 5568

                                                                              #39
                                                                              Our local nutcase "Kingpin" will have this in a 4-way...

                                                                              Interestingly, the one person the core 3-way that Brian and I worked on to commercial stuff put the price right about where this one's targeted...

                                                                              When are we going to give up on this "find the best that's out there" and start building our own drivers? It seems every project is a headache of casting about for the specs wanted...

                                                                              Anyhow, should be a fun project.

                                                                              C
                                                                              diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                                              Comment

                                                                              • Brian Bunge
                                                                                Super Senior Member
                                                                                • Nov 2001
                                                                                • 1389

                                                                                #40
                                                                                Originally posted by cjd
                                                                                Interestingly, the one person the core 3-way that Brian and I worked on to commercial stuff put the price right about where this one's targeted...
                                                                                Chris,

                                                                                Are you saying someone felt our towers could compete in the $20K-$30K commerical price range? If so...WOW! Who was this?

                                                                                Comment

                                                                                • cjd
                                                                                  Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                  • Dec 2004
                                                                                  • 5568

                                                                                  #41
                                                                                  Captain Cojo commented here - not entirely a direct comparison, just an off-the-cuff observation.

                                                                                  At $20-30k I think there can be a lot of variance so I don't know how generically any such statement can be made, but even if I think it's exaggeration it sure makes me grin. :B
                                                                                  Last edited by theSven; 02 May 2023, 20:19 Tuesday. Reason: Update htguide url
                                                                                  diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

                                                                                  Comment

                                                                                  • kingpin
                                                                                    Senior Member
                                                                                    • Jun 2006
                                                                                    • 958

                                                                                    #42
                                                                                    Originally posted by cjd
                                                                                    Our local nutcase "Kingpin" will have this in a 4-way...

                                                                                    C

                                                                                    Awwww.
                                                                                    You are making me blush with those kind words. ops: ops:
                                                                                    Call me "MIKE"
                                                                                    "PROJECT OVERKILL" :B:B -WWMTMSS- :B:B
                                                                                    "PROJECT OVERKILL" is now the :B:B "mini-me's" :B:B
                                                                                    CLICK HERE TO SEE PROJECT OVERKILL
                                                                                    CLICK HERE TO SEE ALL MY BUILD PICS
                                                                                    "PROJECT OVERKILL" IS GOING UNDER THE KNIFE. :B :B "mini-me's :B :B !!
                                                                                    Dual sealed 18" Mach-5 ixl 18.4 subs

                                                                                    Comment

                                                                                    • Dennis H
                                                                                      Ultra Senior Member
                                                                                      • Aug 2002
                                                                                      • 3791

                                                                                      #43
                                                                                      Linkies for the Duelund filter:


                                                                                      Driver limitations in frequency response and excursion capability that lead to acoustic crossover requirements

                                                                                      Comment

                                                                                      • mmoeller
                                                                                        Senior Member
                                                                                        • May 2006
                                                                                        • 138

                                                                                        #44
                                                                                        Originally posted by Dennis H
                                                                                        Great link on the duelund filter. I am absolutly fascinated. It has been along time since I have done any s-domain math.

                                                                                        Is this a typical process for designing a 3-way type crossover?

                                                                                        Any more references to this type of work? I would really love to become more well versed.

                                                                                        Comment

                                                                                        • Evil Twin
                                                                                          Super Senior Member
                                                                                          • Nov 2004
                                                                                          • 1531

                                                                                          #45
                                                                                          Originally posted by ssabripo
                                                                                          Dear Dark Lord, is the possibility of using the Seas W15 or W12 even in the ballpark, err... I mean....spaceship? Secondly, has the outer topology and structure of this undertaking been narrowed down yet?

                                                                                          As compadre Chasw98 said, we in Floridan kindly await news of such designs, as I have exhumed my resources to developing just such thing when the time arrives, once the completion of the twin towers has been done.

                                                                                          yours truly.....Billy Dee....err, I mean.... Lando

                                                                                          Calrissian, you must have been down in the Bespin mines one time too many times without your respirator... always carry a spare.

                                                                                          W12CY: 85 dB sensitivity, with a moderately horrendous breakup mode between 8 and 18 kHz. Possessed of adequate Xmax (3 mm), the breakup mode would be very difficult to suppress adequate and sill contribute to raised 3rd hamronic distortion from 3 kHz and up.

                                                                                          W15CY: 3 mm Xmax OK, big break up mode starting at 5 kHz. Makes the C79 look pristinely clean in comparison.

                                                                                          W12CY Nextel: Promising SPL plot, but what is that impedance wiggle at 800 Hz? Get's a little rough at 4 kHz and above, but looks manageable. VERY large magnet assembly almost complete masks rear wave. Why did they not use the W15 Nextel neodymium motor? Paper cone? Paper? no self respecting Sith speaker designer... mumble mumble.

                                                                                          M15CH002: Fairly smooth, but a curious glitch in impedance curve and response at 1100 Hz. Some narrow peaks in 4-5 kHz region- odd, with the incredibly small Neodymium magnet assembly, it's not plausibe to blame those on a reflection from the magnet assembly. From the impedance curve and SPL data I expect some minor energy storge issues. Potentially usable... but I beleive I recall others lamenting linear or nonlinear distoriton issues for these- will have to search the hypernet to confirm. Cone size and dispersion might be concerns.

                                                                                          Scanspeak 15M/4532K: Ugly impedance ripple at 1 kHz. It doesn't feel right in the Force...

                                                                                          Scanspeak 15W/4531G: Ugly impedance ripple at 1 kHz....

                                                                                          I looked at other 5" SS- similar issues.

                                                                                          This is not to say others couldn't try these- the M15CH002 would be easiest to fit to the requirements of the crossover, with fairly well controlled response to 10 kHz. Does any one have test data on the Nextel?
                                                                                          Last edited by theSven; 02 May 2023, 20:17 Tuesday. Reason: Remove broken image link
                                                                                          DFAL
                                                                                          Dark Force Acoustic Labs

                                                                                          A wholly owned subsidiary of Palpatine Heavy Industries

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