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11-30-2006, 10:32 PM
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#1 (1) |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: mpls, mn
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the sad state of math skills in the us
i have been using my palm 650 for the internet for a week
used 3000kbs and was shocked to see my bill, considering i was quoted .015 cents/kb turns out its $.015/ kb.... 100 times more than i was told by verizon i called to complain and it got rediculouse from there ill let my letter to customer service explain  i realy realy wish i would of tape recorded the conversation... if anyone knows how to record one digitaly i may be willing to do it again as it seems they have an endless supply of mathmaticaly challenged employees Last week I called to inquire about the data rate per kb for internet usage. I was quoted ".015 cents per kilobyte". Upon paying my bill I noticed that the rate was much higher- in fact $.015/kb. I called back to complain but was shocked to here "the rate is .015cents per kilobyte" and "... .015 cents is $.015". At this point I was dumbfounded by her ignorance and hung up. Calling back I was shocked to experience this scenario a third time so promptly asked for a manager. He reiterated that ".015 cents per kilobyte is equivalent to .015 dollars per killobyte". I then spent 30 minutes trying to explain to him how these were two very different values to no avail. While these 4 employees gross deficiency in elementary mathematics is appalling, the fact that Verizon employees these people who are so inept as to misstate a rate by a factor of 100 is disgusting and probably legally unwise. You at this point have one customer that is very angry and frustrated due to this misrepresentation that resulted in a bill literally 100 times larger than expected. I would suggest that all phone representatives be corrected on their erroneous math as the third representative put me on hold and stated "all the people here say .015 cents is 1.5cents" before retrieving a manager; hence the problem runs beyond the four I spoke with. Initially, I wanted a refund but after experiencing this abyss of ignorance I feel my fees will be better served towards teaching remedial math towards these employees and will be satisfied with an apology. Last edited by peterS : 12-09-2006 at 11:29 PM. |
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11-30-2006, 11:45 PM
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#2 (2) |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Baton Rouge
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That was a big surprise, I bet...
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Danish |
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12-01-2006, 12:47 AM
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#3 (3) |
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Location: Southern Alberta, Canada
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That is sad; the days of writing out all the Algebra questions in high school are long gone.
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12-01-2006, 02:03 AM
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#4 (4) |
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Somewhere in Alaska
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Amazingly sad.
__________________
CHRIS "Okay, give me any movie, and I'll tell you all about it" "Alright, how about... Jaws?" "Yeah, that was a good movie" - The Ringer |
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12-01-2006, 11:37 AM
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#5 (5) |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: quincy il
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Only up to algrebra 2 is required in high school. 3 credits of something incredibly important.
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12-01-2006, 12:42 PM
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#6 (6) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sprawling scorchin' LA
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My friend was a TA in a science lab class in college about 20 years ago. Due to a pet peeve, he put a problem on a quiz where his students had to add up a bunch of elapsed times in hh mm ss format, i.e. 00:33:47 + 00:12:30 (which obviously = 00:46:17).
The entire class got every problem wrong, as they were all chosen to be easily answered correctly if you realized there are only 60 minutes per hour and 60 seoncds per minute, but incorrect if you allowed those values to go up to 99. BB |
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12-02-2006, 03:11 AM
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#7 (7) |
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Join Date: Dec 2000
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__________________
CHRIS "Okay, give me any movie, and I'll tell you all about it" "Alright, how about... Jaws?" "Yeah, that was a good movie" - The Ringer |
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12-02-2006, 09:13 AM
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#8 (8) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts
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Thats typical. Most customer service people are making $8/hr or less, so I'm just happy when they speak English and not Spanish or Hindi. I consider customer service reps to be roughly equivalent to automated systems which have a few more options. Anything requiring thought sees me asking for a manager.
Even more sad, is that in my state Algebra 1 is the only requirement for graduation. Now that we have a standardized test that kids have to pass though, they need to know at least some polynomial arithmetic and basic geometry. Almost all of my math teachers sucked though, so it's not all on the kids either. Right now I'm getting ready to return to college, and I'm trying to review my mathematics. I passed Differential Calculus already, but in high school my district did not include trigonometry as part of the curriculum, so I'm trying to teach myself all the identities right now. I have a hole in my mathematics background using just the limited trig I do know from Physics and being a Pilot. Pain in the @$$...
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~Nick |
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12-02-2006, 12:38 PM
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#9 (9) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sprawling scorchin' LA
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I remember a study many years ago that showed that the longer you were married, the more your mathematical abilities converged to a level equal with your spouse's.
My wife laughs about that, because since hers is pretty much static, she reckons mine must plummet continuously. BB |
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12-03-2006, 01:28 AM
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#10 (10) |
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Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: SW Florida
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If the kids don't know basic Geometry, then who will go into the wheat fields and make crop circles?
Oh that's right they just appear magically. Or was it a plasma blast from a parallel universe.
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Jim |
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12-03-2006, 11:32 AM
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#11 (11) |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts
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The other one I love is when you go to a store/restaurant and order/purchase something that costs $6.10, then you give them a ten, one, and two nickels. I swear, you can see the friggen' smoke pour out' their ears. Every once in a while you'll just get a blank stare and crickets chirping too.
I went to a country store the other day that had a broken register and bought a $0.55 pack of gum and handed the girl a dollar bill. She actually needed to use a handheld calculator to figure out my change. Oh well. I guess it takes all kinds. 
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~Nick |
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12-03-2006, 04:37 PM
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#12 (12) | |
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: quincy il
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Quote:
 I took that in 7th grade |
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12-03-2006, 06:10 PM
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#13 (13) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts
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Me too.
But some kids who are slow in Math don't take it until 9th grade. Then they repeat it three times because the teachers suck. When a child has to take Algebra 1 four times, I blame it on the teachers. Even if they put zero effort into it out of school, 45min a day for four years should teach you basic algebra. The state gets away with it by subdividing the class. Algebra 1 "A" and Algebra 1 "B". Then it's technically "Two Years" of mathematics. They think that by teaching it the same way but at half speed, all the "slow" kids will get it. Some people just learn differently and need a different approach. What the $#%@ do these teachers learn in college who major in education? In my district, the flow went Algebra I, Geometry, Algebra II, Pre-Calc, and then Calculus. Pre-Calc was essentially a statistics and review course. The curriculum simply did not teach Trigonometry. The most trig you got was if you took Physics. They taught vector addition with basic Sin/Cos/Tan functions to solve triangles. They did nothing with the unit circle, identities, etc. Another thing that bugged me was that we were never taught with any proofs. We were just given stuff to memorize and use. Problem is, when you don't understand why something is the way it is, it's tough to apply it. I ended up taking out mathematics books at the local library to teach myself in highschool. Pretty lame. I had a tough time with Physics when I was in college simply beacuse so many things are defined with trig functions. I got the credits, but pretty much forced my way through it. I'm learning trig now on my own, and hope to take Physics again.
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~Nick |
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12-04-2006, 12:34 PM
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#14 (14) |
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Sprawling scorchin' LA
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Freshman physics without having trig would suck. You have my sympathy, Way back when I was in school, pre-calc and trig were combined in the 11th grade curriculum into one class. But the emphasis over the year was definitely on trig.
BB |
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12-09-2006, 02:10 PM
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#15 (15) |
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Posts: 68
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Well, it seems peter isn't the only person who has had this exact same problem with verizon, nor is it only limited to the USA.
http://science.slashdot.org/article...6/12/09/0625245 |
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12-09-2006, 04:54 PM
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#16 (16) |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: mpls, mn
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Oh My God This Is Exactly What I Went Through!!!!!!
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12-09-2006, 05:17 PM
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#17 (17) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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~Nick |
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12-10-2006, 12:39 AM
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#18 (18) |
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Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Somewhere in Alaska
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Oh my GOSH!
 that was wayyyyyyy, wayyyyyyyyyy too painful. What kind of IDIOTS are we educating today? And that dude was a supervisor!
__________________
CHRIS "Okay, give me any movie, and I'll tell you all about it" "Alright, how about... Jaws?" "Yeah, that was a good movie" - The Ringer |
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12-10-2006, 12:45 AM
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#19 (19) |
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(I'm still listening to the clip) And now there's the lady owner of the STORE that doesn't gets it! She agrees that ".5 dollars is different from .5 cents", but then says ".002 dollars is no different from .002 cents".
....bwwaaaahahahahaaa... now she says, "it's a difference of OPINION." Since when is mathematics opinion? "Gee, Johnny, you got #2 wrong on your math test, but if that's your opinion, who am I to contradict?" These people are freaking morons.
__________________
CHRIS "Okay, give me any movie, and I'll tell you all about it" "Alright, how about... Jaws?" "Yeah, that was a good movie" - The Ringer |
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12-10-2006, 09:49 AM
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#20 (20) |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts
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Yeah, the lady at the end was the funniest. I damn near fell out of my desk chair I was laughing so hard!
Him: "Is there a difference between one dollar and one cent?" Her: "Yes." Him: "Is there a difference between half a dollar and half a cent?" Her: "Yes." Him: "Is there a difference between 0.002 Dollars and 0.002 cents?" Her: "No." AHAHAHAHAHAHA! Then of course the "It's a difference of opinion" comment, and "Well I'm not a mathematician sir!". Decimal placement mathematics with algebraic translation of units is 7th grade math here in Massachusetts. That's not even high school level! 
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~Nick |
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12-10-2006, 05:12 PM
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#21 (21) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: mpls, mn
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a reply from my second email
My name is Eva, and I am eager to address your concerns for the kilobyte charges. On behalf of Verizon Wireless, please allow me to apologize for the frustration this matter has caused you. Verizon Wireless has a strong customer commitment to delivering the best from our service and staff. I am disappointed that you feel the service you received did not reflect this commitment. Upon further review of your account, I found that even though our explanation may have been confusing, you were provided correct information regarding the charge for kilobyte usage. We bill the usage at $0.015 per kilobyte. This means $0.015 of a dollar, not $0.015 of a cent. The verbal information given at the store was also correct. Your original e-mail indicated you were told "$0.015 cents per kilobyte." If it was the charge you understood it to be, it would be verbally given as 0.015ths of a cent. The charges were presented and billed correctly and I am sorry, no a credits are due at this time. |
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12-10-2006, 08:56 PM
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#22 (22) |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1
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I've been following George's story and now yours, and I just had to comment that that reply is utter bullshit.
"This means $0.015 of a dollar, not $0.015 of a cent" What she wrote doesn't even mean anything! $0.015 is said as "point zero 1 5 dollars"...it already has the dollar sign, you can't say "of a cent" after it! If this was me, I would reply that, no, the verbal information given was not correct as you were told "point zero 1 5 cents" (I'm sure) which is represented as $0.00015. I don't even want to get into her mixing of decimal and percentages with "0.015ths"...ugh. |
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12-10-2006, 09:56 PM
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#23 (23) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts
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__________________
~Nick |
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12-10-2006, 10:18 PM
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#24 (24) | |
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Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hattiesburg, MS
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Quote:
Ah the circle of Internet life... That site now links to this thread as a reference to how this is not an isolated incident. Kevin D. |
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12-10-2006, 11:20 PM
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#25 (25) | |
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Join Date: Dec 2000
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Really, Kevin? Cool.
Quote:
Say, what? Even there, they still equate .015 dollars with .015 cents. (not to mention the incorrect usage of the dollar sign as pointed out)
__________________
CHRIS "Okay, give me any movie, and I'll tell you all about it" "Alright, how about... Jaws?" "Yeah, that was a good movie" - The Ringer |
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12-11-2006, 01:23 AM
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#26 (26) | |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
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Quote:
This is so incredible, I jumped through x hoops to register on this forum just to reply to that. (this board has a "spam protection" that requires almost inhuman powers to decipher the CAPTCHA and of course the automated e-mail sent by it was filtered out by MY spamfilter). Anyways: "$0.015 cents" or "$0.015 of a cent" or is NOT in any way a correct way of writing 0.015 US-Dollars (or anything else for that matter). One could as well and easy assume from this, that the rate would be 0.015 cents in US-Dollars. Even worse: "0.015ths of a cent" What the hell is that suppose to mean? Mathematically one "0.015ths of a cent" would be 66,67 cents! 0.015 cents would be about 1/66th of a cent but never ever 0.015$. Please reply to this email, and keep us updated. This is just incredible ... |
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12-11-2006, 01:55 AM
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#27 (27) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: mpls, mn
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actually I called and taped... pretty funny
hopefully George will post the audio no refund yet and no nobody really gets the difference but I sense a different attitude than the one displayed two weeks ago. Previously it was combative and almost one of ridicule (could hear people laughing in the background). Today it was careful and they tried to make a point of saying "the rate is .015" w/o specifying units. I feel bad for the actual people taking these call as I would not want this job but it still isnt right or fair to responsible customers ps anyone know how to turn several .wav files into one file? |
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12-11-2006, 02:08 AM
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#28 (28) | |
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Moderator
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Hattiesburg, MS
Posts: 4,126
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Quote:
Window's Sound recorded does it quick and easy. Should be under Accessories/Entertainment. Kevin D. |
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12-11-2006, 02:25 AM
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#29 (29) |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: mpls, mn
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cool!
now to host it |
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12-11-2006, 02:54 AM
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#30 (30) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: mpls, mn
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here we go-lol
not as good as the original but they sucked me of energy a long time ago  http://media.putfile.com/mafskilz |
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12-11-2006, 06:54 AM
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#31 (31) |
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Junior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 1
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Good job.
Way to go getting it recorded. At one point, she, TOO, also quoted you at .015 CENTS!!!
What I am thinking is this. The other victim finally got his 'stolen' money returned to him. So why can you not also get your money returned back to you? And if that is the case, I think everyone should be entitled (to get the chance) to get back the difference between what they payed and 1/100th of what they paid. I can honestly see a class action lawsuit being started here. Although I am not a Verizon customer, I feel it is my duty as a human being to make people aware of this horrible mistake on Verizon's part that, for some people (maybe a whole lot of people), they actually were/are hoping that they only paid 0.00xxx CENTS instead of dollars. Let's face it.. it has been quoted many times, there is proof of this, and it did officially allow at least one person to have their refund. It is/was also clearly stated in documentation that it was a value based in CENTS and not dollars. This is a money thing, and Verizon was clearly wrong (in so many ways), and they are a large company. People are being misled and therefore charged an incorrect amount based on what was in official documentation. There is no reason why this would not win out in court. Also, if this does turn towards opinions/morals.. as was stated in another forum on this topic, the charge per usage of Kilobyte is already a very (we are talking millionths of a cent to say the least) cheap asset for the multi-million dollar company. Petition and all. This is a black and white case, and whether it's mere pennies or hundreds of dollars, it's the idea behind the issue--and the great part is, it's all based on cold, hard facts. I truly think it should be pushed towards a Class Action Lawsuit. Don't you agree? |
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12-11-2006, 08:55 AM
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#32 (32) |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Massachusetts
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peter - Thats is absolutely maddening!
While we're at it, I'd like to make a plug for a company people should not do business with... UZED.com. I sold them $700 worth of DVDs in mid-September, paid for the shipping, and they have yet to send me payment. I contacted my state's consumer protection agency, and sent Uzed.com a certfied demand letter. If they don't respond by the end of this week I'll be heading down to my district courthouse. Just a heads up for anyone looking to dump some DVDs. Figured I'd take advantage of this thread's popularity to get that out... 
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~Nick |
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12-11-2006, 10:24 AM
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#33 (33) |
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Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Kansas City, USA
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Wow!!
This is totally amazing how Verizon gets away with that, imagine the sheer numbers that they rake in by people who do not pay attention to the difference or like the verizon employees, dont understand the difference. Mind boggling and sad 
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Robert P.  AKA "Soundgravy" 
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12-11-2006, 04:03 PM
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#34 (34) |
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: mpls, mn
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=wAVKOElCkz4
lol at the coments man that audio does sound shrill i dont know if im too close to the mic or if its the compression or both who wants to host the SACD version  |
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12-11-2006, 05:12 PM
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#35 (35) |
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Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Somewhere in Alaska
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Wow, this continues. I keep seeing getting confused, adding in extra factors, doing wrong math, etc. Respectfully to our member above, 0.015 cents is not 66,67 cents. (do you mean, 66 thousand, 670 cents? or do you mean 66 cents and 67 hundrenths of a cents?) 0.015 cents is just that. 0.015 cents. 15 thousandths of one cent. Or 1.5 hundreths of one cent. Even on the youtube page, some people have written in comments that "of course Verizon is getting confused, you keep changing your units between dollars and cents". Well, that's the whole problem, but that's what VERIZON is doing. They're taking .015 cents per kb (which is still being quoted by Verizon people) and multiplying it by usage (in Peter's case, 4,171 kb) to get the result, 62.565 and then saying dollars, jumping from one unit to another. This would be like me saying, "I weigh 200 lbs, so a room full of 30 of me weighs 200 x 30 = 6,000. That's a large number, so that must be tons. Therefore, a room full of 30 versions of me must weigh 6,000 tons. People who aren't good at math are just going on perception, that something that looks small (like .015) must be cents, because it's tiny. Something larger with digits on both sides of the decimal point, (like 62.565) must be dollars, because that's how I normally see dollars. In mathematics, you need to stick with the units you're using, it could be cents, dollars, minutes, lbs, or whatever. Take .015 cents/kb. That's a fraction, (cents/kb) with cents on the top, kb on the bottom of the fraction, the unit being .015. If you multiply by 4,171 kb, the "kb" with 4,171 goes on top of the fraction. So using basic 7th grade pre-algebra and transitive properties of mathematic multiplication, you get: .015 cents/kb x 4171 kb = (.015 x 4171) (cents/kb) x kb = (.015 x 4171) (cents x kb)/kb Here, the kb on top of the fraction and the bottom of the fraction cancel out = (.015 x 4171) cents = 62.565 cents Peter, yes, listening through that painful session of yours, the supervisor again quoted you .015 cents per kb. The line that got me was, "if I refund you your money, well, that doesn't seem like a very good business decision on my part!" Here's the bottom line for all these people getting abused by Verizon: They were quoted 0.015 cents per kb, which was agreed upon by the customer, making it a verbal contract. The company did not charge 0.015 cents/kb, they charged 0.015 dollars/kb. Therefore, they charged 100 TIMES more than agreed upon. Thus, Verizon owes the customer a 99% refund of that charge. If they want to change the stated rate to .015 dollars/kb, that then becomes a new contract, not retroactive to past use based on a previous contract. Verizon is obligated to charge what they quote. If they quote a wrong amount, well, that's their problem, not the customers. If you walk into my supermarket and ask me how much oranges cost, and I tell you 1 cent per orange, so you buy 100 oranges and I charge your credit card 100 dollars, not 100 cents, (1 dollar) are you obligated to pay the 100 dollars? Of course not. You go back to my supermarket, ask for a refund of the overcharge, and I have to take 99 dollars off your credit card, because I misquoted you. With the first youtube audio posted above, when the supervisor and store owner didn't get it, this is what I would have done, to lead them through the logic: Me: "You're telling me that the rate is .015 cents per kb, correct?" Them: "Yes" Me: "So if I use one kb, how much am I being charged?" Them: ".015 cents" Me: "Okay, let's say I use 10 kb, how much should I be charged?" Them: "Uhhh... (perhaps working a calculator) .15 cents" Me: "Okay, how much would it be if I use 100 kb?" Them: (perhaps the light comes on here and they feel stupid and try to bluff their way through it, perhaps not) "That would be 1.5 cents" Me: "Okay, how much would it be if I use 1,000 kb?" Them: Here, they're going to see the number of 15.00, and either going to say "15 dollars" and continue igorance, or maybe, just maybe, they'll still say "15.00 cents" If they make the jump to dollars because of how it appears, you point out that they just said 100 kb would be 1.5 cents, but 1,000 kb would be 15 dollars, a 1,000 times jump in price for only 10 times more kb. If they, however, continue to say "15 cents", then you say, "okay, if 1000 kb is 15 cents, then since I used 4,171 kb, a little more than four times more than 1,000 kb, my bill should be just a little bit more than four times 15 cents, right? Or a little over 60 cents. (62.565 cents, which on your bill would be rounded to 63 cents) If you describe the problem mathematically, leading them through the iterations, you can point out their logic error. Mathematics doesn't lie, it's not opinion, it's not perception, it's not whether you feel it's fair or not. If you start with a mathematical premise that everyone agrees on (i.e. 0.015 cents per kb) you can lead people slowly enough so they finally get it.
__________________
CHRIS "Okay, give me any movie, and I'll tell you all about it" "Alright, how about... Jaws?" "Yeah, that was a good movie" - The Ringer |
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