kvardas

Hi, I am intrigued by the "Soup" speaker - design available here: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Soup.html.

As a woodworker, I think it would be a fun project to tackle, but I am dissapointed about the cost of the Accuton (Thiel & Partner) drivers. It would be great to obtain feedback from anyone who has made these speakers and their thoughts on the overall results.

Thank you considerably,

Kris

KeithM

I think Jon did a design with a similar cabinet for a lot less money. He'll probably come by this thread and post it.

ThomasW

This is as close as we get..

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=3430

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JonMarsh

Tony Gee (NL) has done a number of fun designs he's posted on the web.

It would be very ungracious of me to nitpick some aspects of his design, but being a Virgo, it's really hard to avoid.... so if you build a project like this, you get more of the value back from these rather expensive drivers. (Hey- I like expensive, don't get me wrong- but the implementation counts, too.

The enclosure looks nice esthetically and is much easier to build than the way Avalon implements it. OTOH, it doesn't have the rigidity of a true Avalon stye enclosure (I've yet to see a European clone that does). But it looks well braced, and I like the esthetics.

It's curious that he's using the C89/T6 as a midrange, instead of the C79/T6 midrange; the latter is the same size, uses notched ears to control cone resonances, and has a cleaner waterfall plot. The C12/6 is a nice tweeter, and if it went a little lower, or if I did conventional three ways, you'd probably see me using it. Maybe when I get around to the Isis Klones someday.... Or maybe all it needs is a good waveguide....

Now, one doesn't want to mix brands and colors, I guess, so using this midrange and tweeter with a Dayton RS225 might seem really gauche to most, BUT, I'd be really curious to see how the Accuton woofer fares against the RS225 in LF non-linear distortion. I expect the Accuton will be cleaner above 1 kHz, but not below, considering 5mm Xmax versus 7mm. Ah well...

OK, where I really have concerns is the crossover. The Accuton drivers don't have as high a Q peaks as metal cone drivers (less mass, better internal damping), but I'd prefer to cross them over faster than a low order serial crossover, IMO. Look at the individual driver responses and waterfall plots.

I'm concerned that one would have more hashy output from the drivers than desirable, as well I'd be curious what the off axis response and power response look like. These large areas of overlap can be problematical.

I rest my case.

So who's gonna build one of these on the board so we can look at it in more detail? Just as an engineering exercise, of course!

~Jon

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Scratch

Hello Chaps,

I have seen the midrange unit used in a european project (think it was German); the other drive units were not the same as I recall. The biggest difference was a twin sub arrangement, and the fact that they tri-amped the whole rig, mixing solid state with tubes. The concensuss was that the transparency of the ceramic driver (used in their set up as upper bass - lower mid) matched that of a panel, they got quite gooey over it. I'll have a fish around & see if I can find it again.

Cheers - Scratch

TacoD

A friend of mine has heard this speaker and resonances of the mid are not well notched. The use low order filters without notches is not a good idea with this type of drivers (like Jon said). I have heard some other designs of Tony and the voicing is way off imho, almost no BS and very pronounced highs. The C89 is used to get away with a lower order x-over (read that somewhere on a Dutch forum).

On that Dutch forum (www.htforum.nl) some guys have made this design and are disapointed of how it sounds. Someone at that board has made a 4th order LR x-over for this loudspeaker, which is much better performing.

TacoD

I think you mean Doede (it's a Dutch guy living in Germany) www.dddac.de

Scratch

That's the one! GYDINEL
(ahem)

Jed

One of the Accutons that caught my interest lately is the C82-T8 (5" Mid/bass, 86.7dB). It seems relatively low priced (for Accuton!) and should make a nice midrange unit in a traditional 3-way. I'm considering mating it to a Scan 8555-01 and haven't decided on a tweeter yet. With the recent completion of my excel 3-way, I thought my next project should involve Accuton drivers. I'm thinking LR4 to the tweeter and LR2 to the woofer around 300HZ.

Jon or anyone, how would you implement the C82, if at all given its specs, in a traditional 3-way? Any thoughts on this driver?

JonMarsh

The price is right, Jed, but with the peak at 4.5 kHz and roll off above it will be a bit harder to work with in a three way than I'd expect for a 5" driver. (see the plots for distortion and waterfall, which aren't as nice looking as the front page FR with impedance.

I'd be a little leary with different looking plots in the same datasheet; I've worked with a few Accuton drivers, and unlike Seas and Focal, for example, what I measured and what they publish don't always match up. That was the case with the C23-6 I have.

If you came to me and said, design the best sounding crosover you can for it, I suspect I'd go with one of my strange CE type at no higher than 2.8 kHz, with the notch set to the 4.5 kHz peak. That would wack it down pretty well. Something like my Arvo crossover, or the three way design for David Roberts center, but higher in frequency on the upper point. That's not a cheap crossover, obviously.

Now, the C79/6 mid goes way higher- out to 10 kHz. It needs some contouring in the 1-3 kHz area, but I'd expect it to be higher resolution, and the distortion plots look rather good way out there in frequency. Easily usable to 3-4 kHz, and wavelength center to center issues become a problem above that. Cleaner step response of course, too. Yes, it's $75 more, but when you're in this price range and going for the gusto, considering all the other work involved, I'd make the investment.

So, it's a tradeoff. The C79 SHOULD be higher resolution, but it won't have a simple crossover, either. With effort and the right tweeter, might be possible to do something nice with the C82. If I was on a budget, I'd think the H1283. Nice upper end dispersion (22 mm al/mag dome), very smooth and flat, peak of about 5 dB at 30-35 kHz, should crossover nicely around 2.5 kHz. IF price is not an object, well, then, it's up to you. C12-6, for 7 times the money. Would be intersesting to see if it sounded any better- would certainly have bragging rights. Me, at 2.5 kHz, I'd consider a set of Focal TC120dx2's I have stashed away. Very efficient (93 dB), and very clean.

Have to be careful about tweeter choice because at 2.5 kHz, center to center spacing ought to be around 5.5" or less. That's pretty close, even for a 5" woofer and tweeter. That's why I rarely give consideration to higher crossover points.

It would be interesting to see if you could take it down to 600 Hz (FR looks OK to 100 Hz on IEC baffle, but thats at nominal drive level, like 1 watt. If so, I expect it might work well with combos like dual RS225 or an RS270 (10"). Or two RS265HF wired in series? Don't know yet if they'll do 600 Hz.

Just thinking out loud in public. I should know better than that by now.

~Jon

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Jed

Actually,

I appreciate your thinking out loud in public, Jon. I reviewed the C82, and yes it does appear that the graphs are all different. I think they must have smoothed out the FR graph to grab your (my) attention. I'm basically looking for a midrange that will do 300-3K if possible. I'm using the W15CH, and now that it is broken in more, they are sounding incredibly clear with high resolution. If I create a new system, it will have to be one that offers more resolution or equal resolution with holographic imaging. I've considered the W15LY nextel, but I think they will just be warmer with maybe not as much detail as the magnesium cone.

I made the mistake in choosing the W22 as a bass driver. It just doesn't sound right under 80 HZ, IMO. Lacks slam and dynamics. I think the 8555-01 by Scan Speak will be excellent used up to 300HZ- maybe I'll even do a pair per side in a sealed box and get F3 40 with a gentle roll off below that. With my small room- it will be more than adequate for bass (I hope :-)

So, for 300-3K, is there an Accuton that fits the bill?

I used focal tweeters in the past- they sure had a lot of detail. From what I understand the TD5 version isn't as good? Is Focal even manufactured for the Diy community anymore? I know Zalytron sells them.

JonMarsh

Focal isn't manufactured for the DIY community anymore. ThomasW and I are sitting on a stash, somewhere around 6-8 pairs (last time he counted). When I get the time to do my tweeter shoot out, I plan to test these also (February?)

Frankly, I think going from the Seas W15CH to the C82 would at best be a lateral move, and might actually be a downgrade. The W15CH handles 3 kHz crossovers just fine, and has pretty nice distortion results- check MarkK's site, I think he's measured it.

The W22 is one of those strange ducks in life. It's the lowest distortion midrange driver Seas makes, within it's operating range up to 1.5 kHz. It's not so hot as a woofer, though. Try an RS225 Dayton instead. I've used the SS 8's in several formats; the Dayton gets the job done very well, looks nicer, and is a LOT less money for an 8.

300Hz may be a bit low for the C79 - sealed or opend baffle?

~Jon

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Jed

I've heard the Dayton RS225, I was very impressed. The system was one of Roman B.'s designs, so the system was very well thought out. I think the RS225 has much better bass than the W22, actually they aren't even close IMHO. I'm not talking distortion here either, just the woofers ability to create impact below 80HZ.

The C79 or C82 would be in a sealed enclosure. I'm not looking to do a lateral move, so if the C79 is "THE" one to try I can give it a whirl. This will be a very long term project though- 6 months at least. That's how long it took me with my last project.

The reason I like the 8555-01 is that it is very versatile. It will play nicely in a closed or ported box- plus I picked up a pair for half price which sweetens the deal. They also test VERY well (below 800hz)- from what I have seen. They may be a slightly better woofer than the RS225 but at 3-4X the price. They will also play a bit deeper based on my Unibox calculations, in a ported enclosure.

If the C79 can play under 400HZ 2nd order acoustic then it might be an option.

JonMarsh

To get an idea of what Accuton can do when they put their minds to it, take a look at the C90-T6 midrange. Should be quite usable to 3 kHz, well damped, (well, relatively), distortion in the 0.2% range much of the time (once above 200 Hz), and it's a 6.5" midrange.

'Course, it comes at a price.

Just the thing for your Isis Klone, along with a set of the diamond tweeters.

Now, what to use for the woofers, as I don't think I can get my hands on a a set of their special Eton woofers jointly developed with Avalon. Hmmmmmm.

~Jon

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Vikash

I just noticed a similar enclosure design over at the DA forum which uses Seas T25CF-001 soft dome Excel tweeter, Audax HM130C0 5.25” midrange and Seas L22RN4X/P 8” aluminium woofers. Perhaps you could probe David for some more info

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TEK

Not my intention to go off-track with this thread, but as some of you will know from earlier on, I'm quite exited about the avalon look

However, I have noticed that I have a couple of issues regarding building a couple of this kind of speakers.

1) To little space :-(
2) Not enough building experience

I'm working on both point one and two. Point one is a bit difficult (but will be solved before my child goes to scool), two is going to be handled in the upcoming year(s). For now my sub project was the starter. I now have the needed tool and know a bit of what it's all about. But there's still a LOT to learn.

Ops, a bit off track again.

The actual question was:
Does anyone have ideas regarding how matching center and sourround speakers in the avalon looks might be designed?
(thinking about Eidolon/Opus clones, not larger ones)

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TEK

Hmm, just came over this site
Milstone

It seems to be a very detailed description of a Avalon clone project, from the research info, including info gathered about the Avalon speakers, and trough to the building phase.
This also includes link and history about a lot of other avalon clones, also the soup and Soup v2 (a filter using a C2 79, midrange and an Eton 8-472 woofer)
There is also A LOT of building pics...

It seems like he's now on his 4th version of the crossover. The current version is the one shown below.


It seems like he's still not completly pleased, and is going for a 5th edition...

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JonMarsh

Is anyone EVER completely pleased?

Thanks for the interesting link.

And Happy New Year! (soon)

~Jon

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TacoD

A Belgian bloke build the cabinets for Tony and Marc, Tony did a series x-over (for the Soup) and Marc with some help of som guys at www.htforum.nl did this parallel x-over. This is the x-over I was talking about a few post back.

Happy New Year

TEK

This one is at least closer than others shown (at least regarding the baffel)
Eidolon clone thread
Impressing work.

Ahh, BTW: Happy New Year!

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Paul H

The way he cut the angled sections away is very interesting - simple, easy and brilliant, if a little hard on the handsaw!

Paul

JonMarsh

Talk about carrying "where there's a will, there's a way" to its logical extreme! My smattering of German doesn't help me any on this forum, either!

~Jon

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TacoD

There are enough pictures And the Dutch language is full of english verbs. We are to lazy to come up with a Dutch equivalent.

Jed

Hi Taco,

Since you have tried a bunch of drivers, I'm wondering which Accutons you find interesting. Which ones offer potential for more resolution than seas excel magnesium? As I conversed with Jon, I don't want to take a step backwards. I'm specifically thinking of midrange duties from 300HZ- 2 or 3K.
Crossover will most likely be LR2 for WM, and LR4 MT. The latest $500 each driver is out of my price range.

Regards,
Jed

TacoD

I only did something with the Accuton C2 95 T6 and I have to say I prefer the Excel in the midrange and the Accuton for the bass. In my opinion it's the clean/ fast and articulated bass where Accuton really excels (no pun intended). If you want a more neutral presentation Accuton is your ticket. Maybe those smaller midranges have a bit more resolution, but it is difficult to integrate these in your design. I prefer 17cm mids, those have more dynamics and are easier to integrate with large bass woofers.

These are my opinions of this matter so stop bashing me with distortion numbers

Jan Deckers

I used to be a happy gut who have heard the Soup-speakers and I must say that they sounded very good. Nice voicing, perfectly in balance.... a very good speaker. I myself build the TL with C12 and C79 and the Eton woofer and must say that I am pleased. This week i am going to listen to an similar system with the same tweeter and mid and will write my experience.

Did also hear a lot of Tony Gee's designs and must say that he perfectly knows what he is doing. They never sounded harsh or too much on the high...on the contrary, they sounded allways smooth and perfectly in balance....with solidstate and tube amps.

Heard also Erik's big system and Doedes'...well I must say it is possible to build nie things with these units....only ..... they let you hear what is wrong with other things in your system....

Happy new year and best wishes,

regards,

Jan

Jed

Well, opinions are useful. I have found that some find the W22s bass not too extended with impact. Now that I have used it in this application, I would agree. Sometimes you have to try things out just to make sure. I'm also interested in the C-Quence 18H52, but I'm worried that that cone won't have the resolution an Accuton or Magnesium driver has in the midrange. I've found that some of the warm sounding paper cone or poly cone drivers lack detail and precision- although they can be nice sounding (less high order harmonics). Does the 18H52 fit that category?

I know what you mean about distortion and its place or lack of a place in hifi. One of the tweeters I like very much is the Visaton MHT-12, which has very high distortion when played over 90DB. Most of the time I don't play my music that loud, when sitting at my listening position 2-3m away.

Jed

Jed

Happy new year to you too! Please report back with your listening impressions comparing contrasting this new setup with your system. Have you considered using a different crossover topology? Maybe LR2 and LR4? I just so happen to have a pair of 8-472 eton woofers. Maybe I'll give them a chance after all. I've been a big fan of your website- nice schematics etc.

regards,

Jed

JonMarsh

Jed, just a few thoughts to toss your way for consideration. I don't know anything about your complete system that you're using the W15CH in, neither the speaker or your overall music system. 300Hz - 3 kHz is a pretty important area of reproduction, encompassing the whole of the midrange and entering what is sometimes call the "presence" range (lower high frequency area). It's also smack dab in the area where baffle step occurs, so it can be a little tricky from a crossover perspective and voicing perspective. I assume you have all those issues fully sorted out.

My point is that you have one of the finest midrange drivers made in the world, and if you're not happy with the midrange yet, maybe there are other things to investigate or attack, possibly at lower cost, but more expenditure of effort. Consider these comments speculation because I dont' have any background on your system details-

My point is that there are a variety of things besides driver choice that will affect the perceived reproduction in that frequency range, so I'll just list a few of the main ones in my experience in case they'll help identify things you want to look at or consider for changes, without tossing the baby out with the bath water.

1) System voicing- nuances of axial frequency response and off axis response, including total power response and off axis smoothness in the crossover region.

2) Crossover component quality/types. There's a lot of debate on that, and some people feel strongly that the simplest crossover with fewest components sound best. My personal feeling is that selection of components in critical positions for the right electrical characteristics and quality is important. What that means to me is low DCR in the series inductor (to minimize insertion loss), low DCR in the shunt inductors in ladder sections, so that the attenuation slope in the LF region of tweeters or midranges continues for several octaves, and high quality caps in the series circuit on tweeters and sometimes midrange drivers. High quality to me means good film and foil construction, not metallized film. That's more expensive, and may have to be used judiciously. I use 1/2 metallized film and 1/2 of the value film and foil even in projects like the Modula MTM or Natalie P. You can get good results with a more conventional approach, but IMO you can get better sounding results with this approach.

3) Cabinet wiring. OK, this is going to be very controversial for some folks, but I'm only relaying my personal experience and that shared and observed with some other DIY constructors and some commercial constructors. Even in the early days at Avalon, selecting the wire type and guage for wiring the woofers, mids, and tweeter was part of the voicing process. Mind you, we're talking about very good ancilliary equipment, a dedicated treated listening room, etc. Personally, I used combinations of Cardas hookup wire (on LF and midrange) and Kimber 4TC on tweeters. You may find you own personal favorites through experimentation. Or, you just may use whatever you have on hand.

4) System and source components. A good SACD player with good recordings will blow the socks off of most CD players for openness and detail in the 300-3kHz range (well, it will all over the place, in general). One of the reasons Ayre is selling so many C-5xe's right now, is because it sounds very good with a lot of different kinds of disks (CD, DVD-A, SACD), and it's built just around optimizing two channel audio. Then, there's the other components in your system - preamps and amps, and interconnects. These have a variety of effects on system presentation in the range you're talking about. Just ask ThomasW about the variety of tonality and transparency we've heard (or NOT heard) in various line level stages over the years. Our favorites right now are either fully passive "preamps" using Shallco attenuators, or the non feedback class A K-5xe if you want niceties like a remote input and volume control, balanced inputs and outputs as well as unbalanced, and a simple uncluttered unit for music. There are many other good solutions out there.

Though I test my "smaller" designs on a "budget setup" consisting of a Sony HT receiver, Marantz CD/SACD player, and Kimber 8TC cables to be sure I haven't done anything "stupid" in voicing that's incompatible with mainstream gear, my main voicing and two channel listening system uses an SCD777ES SACD player, a Benchmark DAC1, an Ayre K-5x preamp, Aragon and Ayre amplifiers, Ayre Signature and Cardas Neutral reference interconnects, and Cardas Golden Reference speaker cables. I don't spend money on cables because I like throwing it away; I spend it for the sound. YMMV.

ALL of these components can have an effect on the perceived reproduction in the frequency range that W15 handles.

So, I'm just suggesting, be careful about just changing out the mid to get the improvements you want; it's a very good mid, and most changes for similar money will just be lateral moves. Or downgrades.

Best regards, and Happy New Year!


~Jon

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Jed

Jon-----Jed, just a few thoughts to toss your way for consideration. I don't know anything about your complete system that you're using the W15CH in, neither the speaker or your overall music system. 300Hz - 3 kHz is a pretty important area of reproduction, encompassing the whole of the midrange and entering what is sometimes call the "presence" range (lower high frequency area). It's also smack dab in the area where baffle step occurs, so it can be a little tricky from a crossover perspective and voicing perspective. I assume you have all those issues fully sorted out.

Jed---- Jon, I've sent you an email about the crossover in my system. Thanks for your comments and I'll investigate upgrading some of the other areas. I'm using Madisound "supra" 13 and 15 gauge internal wiring. The W22 is in a 50L ported box F3 around 33HZ or so. I use flared ports firing to the rear. Caps are mostly Solen and Dayton. Inductors are mostly 14 or 15 gauge air core- however I do have one 20 gauge in the circuit because I needed the extra resistance for the phase alignment. Should I change it to 15 gauge and use a resistor? That seems like a waste. Other than that, the drivers are flush mounted and the response is very smooth except for the slight BBC dip around 2.5K-5K. My looking into other drivers is the speaker builder in me- always looking at new things etc. If the C79 is just a lateral move, then I guess it won't find a place in one of my next speakers. However, I don't think you were really saying that if I'm interpretting your response correctly.

Thanks and Happy New Year to you too!

Jed

JonMarsh

While the C82 looks like it would be easier to work with (with regards to flatness, difficulty of crossover in your existing design), the telling point in the C79's favor is distortion. Whereas the C82-T8 rises to as much as 1% for the 2nd and 3rd harmonic in portions of the spectrum between 300 Hz and 3 kHz, the C79 appears to be under 0.25% for both 2nd and 3rd harmonic over that whole range, and is especially low in the 600 Hz to 2 kHz range. In that context, including the improved off axis response, I think the additional 45% price is well justified and money well spent.

Ponder that the C90 T6 at 93 dB output appears to offer comparable distortion performance over an even more extended range - 200 Hz to 4 kHz, with only a slight increase in distortion moving to 100 dB out over that same range. That's smokin'!

Is that distortion performance and sensitivity worth the money? Gee, don't think I can answer that question for myself, much less anyone else. Is it really as good as the published specs? Another interesting question.

It would be a gas to find and measure a driver that one might be able to say, at least for a while, "this is the best out there in this class for these performance metrics". I still strongly suspect it's the midrange in the new Avalon Isis. I didn't make it to RMAF, but ThomasW heard the Isis, and he felt it handlily topped the Wilson X1 SLAMMs he last heard in a very expensive setup. IF so, Wilson is in trouble with Avalon offering this system for "only" $48K a pair, considering what the X2's go for.

And rather than use the slower slope crossovers Avalon normally goes with, I'm very curious how this mid might perform with several available 20 mm tweeters.

Think a bi-wired system concept; an efficient MT head unit, run with passive crossover from an amp in the 25-60 watt range; another bass unit, (maybe dual RS315HF?), with a passive crossover, run from a different amp, 200W+ class, with passive level controls to match. Could be tube or zero feedback solid state on the top, something like my Aragon Palladiums on the bottom. Hmmmmm...

Even with a 93-94 dB/watt driver, you'd still need BSC comp, which would kill 4-5 dB of efficiency of the MT, depending on the ultimate crossover point and how much BSC is provided by the bass bin. Worst case, one might be able to wind up with an 87 dB efficient speaker that could be run from just one amp in a pinch, or bi-wired.

It bears some further support and research.

Maybe when I do my midwoofer shootout (now looking like February) I should include some Accutons.

~Jon

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JonMarsh

One last comment. One of the things of note with the newest Accuton drivers is that they appear to be paying attention to motor design more, and the newest drivers feature an underhung Neodymium magnet system with lower distortion. This is the case for the new C13-6, the C24-6, and the C90-T6. What's also curious about this is how much more efficient the new tweeter models are, as well as the midrange model.

~Jon

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TacoD

A friend of mine had a glance of the new Accuton C90-T6 in real life and he thinks the magnet/ motorsystem is quite large for neodym. You expect everything made of metal would stick to the magnet... Like those big neodym motors of 18sound. So is it a multimagnet assembly?

Jed, the C-quenze 18H52 is one of the best units I have tried. I have to admit the resolution is not as good as Accuton, but the air/ timbre / tonality is more convincing. Also the big symmetric drive motor assembly is great. For my own 3-way I have a underhung motor (made to spec by Audiotechnology).

I agree with Jon on caps and cables. For me its the last part in finetuning the loudspeaker. I have to stress that the x-over comes first and must be good, before you invest in other things like caps. The playsystem is also important, on a cheap system its harder to get things right imho. Some subtile differences I talk about, are not always noticable on less revealing systems and therefore sometimes credited to my imagination.

TacoD

Nice to hear some people are enjoying his designs. I respect his work for the DIY community. I have heard the following speakers of him and did not liked them:

The Monitor, never thought the 18H could sound so bad. Very strange he uses series x-over with a low inductance motor. Which is very sensitive for series connection.

Eve 2 with Tony Spec filter, sounded upfront, to much bass and no midbass.

Proteus, I liked the dynamics, but was voiced the same as all other Tony loudspeakers to thin on the mids and to much highs.




Erik's "avalon clone thing" is beautifull made, but the x-over is done by a fellow who knows his stuff (Van Oostrum from Kharma).