capslock

That was more than a few years ago. I remember the girl only dimly, certainly less than Jean Réno.

cjd

I got to listen to these yesterday at the Chicago AudioFest (DIY Chicago with a couple vendor rooms set up - BESL and Jim Salk. We'll not talk about Jim's woodworking OK? )

They were built in a tower version, 1cu/ft ported. I think the box was built to the "Dr. K" specs, not the Modula spec, and the port was on a removable panel so they could be sealed and combined with a sub.

The sound was superb. A bit thin in bass in the room we had, but in most listening situations (i.e. real world rooms for most folks) that should pick up really well. Midrange clarity was very good, top end detail just crystal clear. A rather surprising difference to my ear compared to some of the other tweeters (immediately prior to it we heard the North Creek D28 I think it was).

Methinks Evil Twin should take more breaks from conquering the world and spend more time designing speakers!

C

Jim Holtz

Chris,

It was good to meet you! Thanks for the feedback on the Natalie P's. Yes, I did use Darren's box sizing of 1 cu. ft. tuned to 40 Hz. I wanted to have a box size that could be easily converted to sealed for use with a sub. One cu. ft. equals a QTC of about .65 sealed I believe.

I'm very pleased with the sound quality of the Natalie P. It exceeded my expectations to be sure. A lot of really good music for not much money.

Evil Twin did very good!

Highly recommended!

BTW, your MTM also sounded very good and landed 1st place in the budget class. Good job!

Best regards,

Jim

cjd

Looking over things, I think it's just port tuning frequency? Not sure, but I thought Jon used a 1cu/ft box option. Ahh, however. Great sounding speaker. And you've got a great finish despite cheating!



Thanks! And likewise, very good to meet you. You have a single bi-wired speaker you're going to use that cable on. . .? I must have missed when Dave first announced me winning 'cause I was soooo confused why he was talking to me about OW1's and Silver Flutes and stuff and everyone was kinda watching me expectantly... Only won by .1 point still.

To hear David Ellis talk about them, they're barely suitable for the garage. Actually, I think he just felt they needed more baffle step and has gone so far as to suggest that no-one would really want to build 'em because of that. Me, I think most people that'll build them will be plunking them pretty close to a wall. Different topic tho. And I might be, uh, spinning his words a very slight bit.

ThomasW

Since Dave Ellis doesn't design crossovers (his are designed by others = Rick Craig), Dave probably shouldn't be making comments he's not capable of backing up...

__________________

IB subwoofer FAQ page

ThomasW: curmudgeon in training, putting the no in innovation

Mudjock

Dave's 1801 crossover was designed by Dennis Murphy. Dave has designed many other crossovers on his own (for himself and others) - but decided for his first foray into the commercial market to turn to someone with a proven track record.

For the record, I was the second place finisher to cjd (0.25 cu. ft. MT using the RS150 with the Seas H1212). When we were talking after the show, Dave correctly identified a relatively small (maybe 2 or 3 dB) response anomaly in my design. Based on that, and a number of other experiences, I am quite confident that his opinions have some value.

Post edited by moderator.....

cjd

I'm sorry I brought it up. I got feedback from a wide variety of folks - some that swear that wooden knob totally opened up their soundstage, like a veil was lifed you know, some that claim they don't know the front from the back when it comes to speaker design.

Opinions are that: opinion. I disagreed with Dave on a number of things, and agreed on many as well. That's normal I think. The exchange of ideas was worth it, regardless - not just with him, but everyone. Everyone has a slightly different spectrum of sound they hear as well, and everyone has some frequencies we're particularly sensitive to I think. Regardless, I don't disagree with his comments regarding baffle step with mine - he's correct, but it's maybe 2dB shy at most. And where I use them, absolutely full-on baffle step would not be a good thing. Since they're targeted to "average" use and not "audiophile" use, I happen to think that's tuned exactly right.

C

Mudjock

Chris,

I certainly didn't object to anything you wrote, only to someone else's suggestion based on misinformation that (to paraprhase a bit ) Dave Ellis should keep his opinions to himself

I enjoyed meeting you and comparing our designs. It was really interesting how essentially the same set of drivers could produce two different "products" with their own character and sets of limitations. If I had been building something using those drivers for my own personal use, I would probably build something closer to what you brought than what I brought (your box, my crossover frequency, I'm not sure whose tweeter or baffle diffraction compensation) - so I think the judging, based on sound quality, was pretty much as it should have been. My constraints for this project included SAF, impedance, and cost - even beneath the $250 budget class limit.

One thing that the whole DIY competition brought out this year was the incredible value that the RS drivers offer. After hearing Jim's MTM, I also gained some respect for the RS28a after previously wondering why anyone would buy it for $50 when the $30 Seas tweeters were an option. Considerable credit also has to go to Jon Marsh and his "evil twin" crossover design. It was the first of his crossovers I have heard. Needless to say, I was impressed and realize I still have much to learn.

Jim Holtz

Hi Chris,

I didn't hear what Dave said but I am sure that he did not mean it in anything but a constructive manner. I've known Dave for a few years and Scott grew up with him. Dave is one of the most honest and unoffensive people that I've ever met. I'm sure what ever the comment was, it was meant to be constructive help only.

That does bring up a point. The DIY events we have in Iowa and this year in Chicago are quite competitive in the evaluation but also quite honest in the feedback given. It goes with entering your speakers. If you don't want feedback, it can be a show and tell entry only which is just what it says. You just want to show folks what you've been up to without feedback.

I'm more of a "run what ya brung" kind of guy myself. I enjoy the competition even when the feedback isn't so positive.

YOu also brought up a very good point about the room. It was very bass shy. The Natalie P.'s had great bass at home in my listening room but were a little lean sounding at the event. Last year at Iowa, the bass was boomy and we had to shift presentation areas and listener positions to get it somewhat under control. It just part of the event.

I hope you enjoyed the event and return next year. I know, I will.

Jim

cjd

Absolutely! I took it as such. I have a degree in Fine Art - surviving art crits means you can handle just about anything else, EVER. Saying "you suck" is just constructive criticism after being through some of those art crits. I just opened the door for other comments, and it wasn't really needed - a digression off the topic of this thread as it were that went even further away.

The amount of new little things I picked up was huge - perhaps most useful, I have much better perspective on how to use my experience in music and acoustics (classical training, 26 years of playing violin, a full lifetime of being in and out of different concert halls with chamber groups, orchestras, choirs, etc) and translate that to some things that the audiophile speaks of - people with ears trained on equipment in their living rooms (so to speak).

As long as the event is reasonably close and I don't have other plans, I'll be there! I've been to two, and each time my understanding has jumped by leaps and bounds.

And, given that i brought a pair of $10 open baffle speakers that were put together as an experiment with spare parts last year. . .

C

Doug Lockwood

Since we are commenting on DIY Chicago,

I really liked all of the entries in the budget and Midrange class.
Both of the RS150 / Seas designs in the budget class were remarkable, and It was fun to hear the Natalie P. Great speaker.

Because of the challenges with acoustic space in an event of this kind and a rather cavalier attitude toward level matching, I honestly couldn't say which speakers I liked best. However, I came away with great respect for both of the Seas and the RS28, as well as the RS150 and RS180 drivers.

It was especially fun to meet a few of our members.

Doug

dawaro

Some praise for the Evil Twin at another board.
Natalie P Review

Evil Twin

Rather loquacious, I'd say, but it appears he heard what the design goals were.

The PE parts are pretty remarkable drivers, to exceed them you'd need something like Seas Excel drivers all around, and the cost would bankrupt even the Emperor for a multi-channel HT.

__________________
Your lack of confidence in the dark side is disturbing... do not forget that black is back...

JasonB

Any chance updated crossovers for the Natalie P and Modula MT using the Seas 27TBFCG will be posted?

Thanks,

Evil Twin

The force must be strong with you, Jason- this is a reasonable possibility before the end of the month.

__________________
Your lack of confidence in the dark side is disturbing... do not forget that black is back...

TacoD

I agree on that, I am working on a Dayton 180/ Scanspeak 9800 2-way (8th order Cauer @ 1300Hz). But I think I would substitute the 9800 with a Seas metaldome to get a better price/ performance.

DeanP

Hey "Jon"!

Could you make this a sticky thread, so we can stack up all the "RS" series.


Thanks!

opt-e

Has anyone built the Natalie P into a floorstanding enclosure? I'm interested in building it into either a TL or vented box and am debating on which is going to be better.

cjd

TL will be large. But could sound excellent.

Jim Holtz built a floor-stander, ported (with the option to seal).

C

opt-e

Could you point me to any links with information about his design?

GrahamT

I just ordered up the parts for the Natalie P. I'm going to make a vertical center channel first. I know it wont match the Extreme MT mains, but meh, I'm just trying something new. Non-timbral matched speakers dont bother me that much at all. And I just like building stuff, the paint and finish probably wont match either. I might do truck bed liner on this one, maybe gloss black, well...just about anything black should make Evil Twin happy.

It looks like I'll be spending my Christmas break in a -20°C garage inhaling MDF dust and loving every minute of it. I really cant wait.

I'll also have my new testing rig up and running with the Behringer ECM8000, UB802, Audigy2, and Speaker Workshop. Yep, that's right, no more RS SPL meter for a microphone. So after I get the rig going, I'll move on to designing the surround speakers.

GrahamT

Maybe like this with a 10 by 22 baffle, and .75" roundover. I think I want to try truck bed liner again. This is an attempt at rendering truck bed liner in AutoCAD

morbo

Sweet! Which tweeter are you going to use? And if you don't mind me asking, how much did requesting the cheaper shipping take off the 'USPS air' option at PE?

sYkone

Do you prime before the truck bedliner? What kind of finnish does it give...textured...plasticy...rubbery... Is it a lot easier?

Would you mind posting your parts list? If you have it handy... I am not planning on doing the NatP right now but I may. Anyway it might help me decifer The Modula MT. I am trying to lear without just simply asking for that list. Hopefully I can learn something.

Pardon the beginner questions.

GrahamT

Thanks Jakub,

I'm using the RS28a. I still dont know how much I am going to save on shipping. I'll call and ask them today. I'll let you know. The USPS express air option was $33 I think.



No Problem. This is a pic of one of the cabinets I made with truck bed liner.



I did use latex primer, and the spray on truck bed liner adhered to it. These boxes were made of butcher block and birch ply. I dont know if the primer is necessary, probably not. For the next cabinet, I may use roll on, or use my spray gun, it depends on the temperature at the time.

I'll post the parts list when I get a chance. These are Solen Parts, Fast Caps and perfect lay 14 Gauge inductors. I use paralleled ceramic resistors.

GrahamT

Hey Jakub, I just called PE, I would have only saved $1 shipping ecomony, so they shipped with USPS express. They said it was $15.50 , not too bad.

GrahamT

Jay,

Here is the parts list. The parts are from www.Solen.ca but Solen parts are available from www.madisound.com in the US.

Capacitors: Solen Fast caps

PA1000
PA120
Two PA1600< should be 32 uF, you can parallel two 16 uF caps instead.
PA1200
PA2400
PA300

Inductors: Solen Perfect Lay 14 Gauge

S14.43
S14.20
S141.2

Resistors:

0.47 ohm
20 ohm
6 ohm

sYkone

Thank you very much Graham. I appreciate it! Looks pretty good. I may try that.

GrahamT

No problem Jay. The Natalie Ps would be a good project for you. They dont cost that much more than the ModulaMTs.

sYkone

Yeah, but then power becomes the problem... This is really the route I wanted to go but I don't have anything at the time that will handle the impedance. I looked into amps but then I need a pre-amp and I can't afford to buy them both. So I guess I need to save a little more and buy a reciever that can do 4 Ohms. I have pretty much decided on the Yamaha HTR-5860 or RX-V657. I know they are not the best out there but I like them and they have the YPAO feature and seven channel expandability. I was also looking at the Panisonic XR series digital AVR's but they only handle 6 ohms. So no panny or no Nat P. That sucks I found one, an XR55, for $197, new. I haven't heard one anyway.

What all have people used to run them?

Oh, that is why I wanted to do the Modula MT first. I can use them until I get something that will handle 4 Ohms and use them as surrounds later. Chris said something about the X-O's being similar in each so I thought they might complement each other.

GrahamT

I recommend that you look into buying a used HK receiver with pre amp outs. They sound good, and will power 4 ohm speakers in my experience. (I have 3)

I use a HK AVR65 to power the center and power amps running the rest.

The ModulaMT would be nice too. And you could move them to the rear later if you upgrade the mains. The NatalieP and the ModulaMT do seem to have similar crossovers.

morbo

sYkone, if you do some searching about the XR55's at avsforum, you can find lots of people who are running 4 ohm speakers off them with no issues. They also put out close to their rated power, and sound really nice. Another option is to use a cheaper receiver with preamp outs, and use a seperate power amp for any channels that are a difficult load. This is what I do now and it works nicely, though it takes away from the simplicity of an all in one reciever a little.

sYkone

Thanks fellas. I plan on doing something with pre-outs for the very reason you both have mentioned.

Graham I am not a big HK fan but that may be because I don't know enough about them. I will look into them. Your set up is similar to what I will probably end up with, though in my room I don't think I will need too much power. It would be more about dynamics than volume.

morbo, I guess I hadn't seen that people were using 4 Ohm speakers on the pan's. That is something else I will look at. Thanks for the heads up. I need to see if they have pre-outs too. I bet they don't.

Thanks again,
Jay

silvercans

I intend on building the Natalie P, but have a question regarding cabinet placement and baffle size. The exact external dimensions of my box are 10.5" (width) x 32" (height) x 8" (deep), which yields an internal volume of 1.03 cf when using 3/4" mdf. That said, I want to mount the cabinets on the wall next to my plasma tv (say 3-4" space between plasma and speaker cabinet edge), will my cabinet design cause any problems (say with BSC, driver placement, etc)? I'm not that all familiar with any simulation software so I would really appreciate your feedback before I order the xover components. (FYI the port will fire from the bottom of the cabinet). Any help would greatly be appreciated as I intend on ording parts ASAP. Thanks